Indian Interests

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Jan 2013 09:31

ganga behti ho kyun bhupen hazarika

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Jan 2013 15:44

LoC violations

Rashtriya Sahara in its editorial on January 10 writes: “As far as Pakistan’s denial is concerned, it cannot be treated as believable. People have not yet forgotten that when Ajmal Kasab was caught during the 26/11 terrorist attack in Mumbai, Pakistani ministers had refused to accept that he was a Pakistani national... However, it cannot be denied that there is no dearth of people in Pakistan who consider friendship with India to be inevitable... So, should it be taken that in reality, there are two Pakistans: one that wants friendship, and the other that keeps looking for pretexts for confrontation? It is difficult and trying for India as to which Pakistan it should deal with.”

The daily Aag, in its editorial on January 9, writes: “Pakistan knows too well that it cannot defeat India in a war. Therefore, it always takes recourse to other means [of confrontation]”. Shakeel Shamsi, editor of the daily Inquilab in his column on January 13, says: “It is useful for the Pakistani government to create tension on the border to divert its people’s attention from its internal upheavals. Political parties like the BJP and some news channels are irresponsibly putting pressure on India to attack Pakistan... But nowhere has war solved any problem and, in fact, wars have created many problems.” Jadeed Khabar, on January 14, writes: “Pakistan should understand the reality that relations between the two countries cannot be improved through the efforts of only one party. The other country also has to respond create hurdles.”

Owaisi’s campaign

The Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen’s (MIM) official daily Etemaad in its editorial on January 7 emphasises that MIM MLA Akbaruddin Owaisi’s elder brother, Asaduddin Owaisi has advised him to face charges in court. It adds, “Akbaruddin’s speech is concerned with ethical parliamentary democracy and it has nothing to do with a war against the state.”

Inquilab, in its January 4 editorial, condemns Akbaruddin Owaisi for his hate-speech in Adilabad on December 24: “Muslim leaders have never spoken that way Akbaruddin Owaisi has spoken. The extracts quoted are definitely objectionable and should be condemned. We are happy that several Muslims have issued statements against his speech... What is the objective of such statements? Can it be of any benefit to Muslims? No. And they certainly threaten communal harmony.”

Siasat, in a commentary on January 6, writes: “While looking ahead to potentially undesirable developments in 2013, citizens, particularly Muslims, would have a lot to imagine, because the leader of the party claiming to be their pathfinder [read MIM], has opened the floodgates of controversy... Possessing an attractive style of oratory does not give one the licence to rob the community’s respect... Now, the community must understand that those claiming votes in their name have created such a political situation... that now there is no difference between their thinking and that of communalists.” The paper also asserts: “If the Muslim leader gets punished for his hateful speech, justice demands that every leader of the Sangh Parivar too should go behind bars.”

Another daily, Munsif, writes, “Citing this, a nation-wide discussion is underway and the government is being urged to take strong steps. It seems to be the first such case... Insulting any religion, religious figure or figures, is not allowed by Islam. Nor do Muslims think on these lines.” The daily Urdu Times, in its editorial on January 6, said: “The question here is of those Hindus who have been fighting the battle against communalism shoulder to shoulder with Muslims... would they not have thought that those very Muslims, whose battles they are fighting, are prepared to teach them a lesson keeping the police force away?”

Verdict on polygamy

The judgment of a trial court in Delhi in a bigamy case involving a Muslim, and its action against the qazi who performed his second nikah, has been subject to considerable discussion. The additional advocate-general of Uttar Pradesh, Zafaryab Jeelani, in an interview to Rashtriya Sahara, says: “Going by the reports, this judgment is meaningless. First, if the marriage was performed without the girl’s consent, this is not a marriage at all. Therefore, the matter of performing the nikah is meaningless. The rejection of the bail application of the maulana forcibly performing the nikah of a girl with a married man is curious. The court had to see what the maulana’s crime was... The court has cited the laws of other countries. But India is a democratic country and a law similar to that of Turkey or Tunisia cannot be enforced here... In India there has not been a law so far where a second marriage by a Muslim is a crime.”

Noted Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind ideologue Maulana Abdul Hameed Nomani wrote in Hamara Samaj and other papers: “The main point for consideration in a case of more than one marriage [for Muslims] is the according of equal justice and appropriate rights to all the wives and not the consent of the first wife. This condition is unnecessary. The Quran, hadith and other books on Islamic jurisprudence are devoid of any provision [of the consent of the first wife].”

Compiled by Seema Chishti

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Jan 2013 19:50

Let’s talk to Owaisi, not jail him!: Tavleen Singh

This comes out in exactly the way Owaisi said it in his speech and this is what makes this speech so important. At one point in his diatribe against India and Indians, he said that those who said Muslims should go to another country did not realize that if they went they would take with them the Taj Mahal, the Red Fort and the Qutab Minar. “And, what will be left here then? A broken Ram temple in Ayodhya and some naked statues in Ajanta and Ellora.”

The echos to Akbaruddin Owaisi are coming to the front now. An MIM MLA Pasha Qadri said yesterday that

How come you setup the statue of Gandhi in "our Nizam" building? How dare you make laws against us sitting in the building built by "our Nizam" He was referring the state assembly building that was once built by Nizam.

Perhaps it is time to remove all Islamic artifacts from face of Bharat.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 18 Jan 2013 19:53

once the Islamics believe that their God is on their side and that genocide of the Kafir is inevitable, they start showing their tendencies.

we should view the increasingly bold and unmasked behavior of the Hyderabad Islamics with caution. this is not happening in isolation.

another wave of Jihad might be imminent.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Jan 2013 20:23

While I think the MIM extras are due to political reasons, this episode does prove the underlying root-causes.

1. Indian Muslims, even after 60 years of secularism and progress in Bharat, are still rally behind Islamist memes, ideology, leadership and organizations.

2. Secularism, as an alternative social contract, failed to make the minorities feel different. They still see the world in Muslim/Christian and non-Muslim/Non-christian perspective.

3. Indian constitution, even after 60 years, failed to give the sense of belonging to especially the minority citizenry.

4. Indian Education System, even after 60 years, failed to provide right perspective on Idea of India, its values, its artifacts etc.,

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Jan 2013 23:10

RamaY wrote:While I think the MIM extras are due to political reasons, this episode does prove the underlying root-causes.1. Indian Muslims, even after 60 years of secularism and progress in Bharat, are still rally behind Islamist memes, ideology, leadership and organizations.2. Secularism, as an alternative social contract, failed to make the minorities feel different. They still see the world in Muslim/Christian and non-Muslim/Non-christian perspective.3. Indian constitution, even after 60 years, failed to give the sense of belonging to especially the minority citizenry.4. Indian Education System, even after 60 years, failed to provide right perspective on Idea of India, its values, its artifacts etc.,

Number 3 and 4 are meant to keep the division and communalism alive to feed the RNIness. You can cure the disease with medication , only solution is to do the surgery, cut the infected part and throw it out. Isalmists in India are on the path which will lead only to the Dead End of Unforgiveness.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 19 Jan 2013 03:29

^RamaY: The failures of the the constitution should not be a surprise, for it was never ours to begin with, so how can it ever work for us? The real question to ponder over is, WHY did our founder patriots not consider our own model. Peel away those layers of onions by going into the minds of the founding fathers and try to see India from their eyes, in their times. What do you see?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Jan 2013 03:46

RamaY ji,
the immediate pat from legislators should have been : how dare you then claim the land in the first place on which an invading foreigner to the soil, built the building?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 19 Jan 2013 04:53

Jhujar wrote:
Number 3 and 4 are meant to keep the division and communalism alive to feed the RNIness. You can cure the disease with medication , only solution is to do the surgery, cut the infected part and throw it out. Isalmists in India are on the path which will lead only to the Dead End of Unforgiveness.

How many more parts would you want to cut sir? Is this not cowardice to run away from the challenges thrown at you? Anyways, not fighting the ML challenge to the idea of a Hindu nation was our greatest moment of weakness.

Just a few days back, a person was telling me how the partition was the best thing that happened to India. Every time I hear this, cannot escape the shame and guilt of not rising up to the greatest challenge the Hindu nation faced. I cannot help wonder, how does an Indian escape the fact that we lost our land. Our leaders failed us. Our land was taken away from us into the hands of people consumed with an Adharmic ideology. BTW: Partition did not solve any problems did it? we instead got a whore, willing to let others in for a fee and screw us in the bargain. Unless, we are willing to admit, we are weaklings and deserve a bunch of thugs coming in and robbing parts of our body. Never again should be the mantra. Work on our weaknesses. Strengthen our core. Build our capacities. Let us concentrate on this essential capacity building exercise with what we got.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jan 2013 06:43

ShauryaT wrote:^RamaY: The failures of the the constitution should not be a surprise, for it was never ours to begin with, so how can it ever work for us? The real question to ponder over is, WHY did our founder patriots not consider our own model. Peel away those layers of onions by going into the minds of the founding fathers and try to see India from their eyes, in their times. What do you see?

I see a great nation finally got independence that can reestablish the Bharat that gave Vedas, Vedangas, Upanishads, Puranas and millions of God-realized saints to this world. It believed that the self-volunteered and self-claimed leadership would deliver on their promises. That is what I see, even though deep down in my heart I did not believe anything they believed and I believed everything the colonizers, who transferred the power to me, believed. I immediately turned my gaze away from them because their dreams are so honest and pure; towards my extended family whom I am going to put in key constitutional and administrative positions, my fellow leaders most of who were prostrating to the colonizers until the very previous day.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jan 2013 06:49

brihaspati wrote:RamaY ji,
the immediate pat from legislators should have been : how dare you then claim the land in the first place on which an invading foreigner to the soil, built the building?

INC is in the power in Andhra Pradesh while the main opposition parties are (1) TDP who says BJP communal (2) YSRCP whose president goes around with a bible in hand (3) TRs which says Nizam's rule was golden and the andhras are robbers and thieves.

We are dhimmis only. We put the swamijis who questioned Akbaruddins comments in jail onlee. If push comes to shove we sell our wives, daughters, sisters and mothers only to make few bucks. We don't believe that Warangal is my Janmabhumi as Assam is or south TN is.

We are secular reformed liberals only.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jan 2013 08:00

ShauryaT wrote:How many more parts would you want to cut sir? Is this not cowardice to run away from the challenges thrown at you? Anyways, not fighting the ML challenge to the idea of a Hindu nation was our greatest moment of weakness.

Just a few days back, a person was telling me how the partition was the best thing that happened to India. Every time I hear this, cannot escape the shame and guilt of not rising up to the greatest challenge the Hindu nation faced. I cannot help wonder, how does an Indian escape the fact that we lost our land. Our leaders failed us. Our land was taken away from us into the hands of people consumed with an Adharmic ideology. BTW: Partition did not solve any problems did it? we instead got a whore, willing to let others in for a fee and screw us in the bargain. Unless, we are willing to admit, we are weaklings and deserve a bunch of thugs coming in and robbing parts of our body. Never again should be the mantra. Work on our weaknesses. Strengthen our core. Build our capacities. Let us concentrate on this essential capacity building exercise with what we got.

ShauryaT ji,

You are like my brother, but that is an idiotic post. Let me explain-

First of all why do you think our forefathers failed in protecting our country? They didn't fail. They fought valiantly and died martyrs. They fought thousands of wars over hundreds of years without losing hope or valor. Generation after generation they passed on their dharma and valor, so their children too stand strong and fight hard for the dharma and independence. They suffered unmentionable losses, endured oppressive regimes but they never lost confidence and trust in their dharma and never lost hope in their children. They kept on continuing war after war and it will go on until our Bharat and Hindu dharma stands victorious, strong, proud.

Why are YOU feeling bad and taking the blame for partition? The blame should be solely on the self-volunteered and self-proclaimed leadership who did not believe in Bharat to begin with. Of course there are leaders who accepted that partition as a temporary withdrawal so Hindu dharma can have a breathing moment and regroup its synergies. How do you differentiate these two leadership groups? Based on their behavior elsewhere. The first group is the one who did not believe in Bharat and imposed the very colonial world-view, language, culture and interests on the nation while donating Bharatiya lands to our enemies. The second group is the one who did everything in their authority to unite Bharat, protect its interests and stand for its dharma and believe in its glory. It is the followers of second set of leadership that say it is good that partition happened.

Thirdly why partition is the only option to handle the Non-Bharatiya citizenry? If it is secular and constitutional to talk/make peace with an Islamic state that crudely prosecutes it's minorities , then why is it not secular to be a Hindu nation and ask your own citizens to adopt Hindu dharma? How is it secular to be a strategic partner of a nation that actively sponsors Christian missionaries across the globe, then why is it not secular to ask your own citizens to adopt Hindu dharma? How is it logical for a reformed Indian to say one will be a slave of foreign ideology and masters TODAY because his masters told him that his fellow Bharatiyas ill-treated his forefathers 100 YEARS AGO? How is it logical to give EQUAL status to the very ideologies that destroyed, oppressed your own Civilizational dharma and do not accept it EVEN TODAY?

Finally were you not the one who threatened to report posters who criticized the very leadership system that allowed the partition, that forced us to economic depreciation to suit its world-view, that allows and encourages religious conversions by NGOs, that failed to provide the minimum civic amenities and rule of law and that is telling us to make peace with the Islamic hordes across the border? On top of it you have the temerity to say "we" failed in protecting our dharma, "we" allowed the partition, "we" didn't make best of past 60 years of independence, "we" wrote a dhimmi constitution and now "we" are weaklings and deserve the thugs?

Uttishta Bharata!

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 19 Jan 2013 09:39

RamaY wrote: Finally were you not the one who threatened to report posters who criticized the very leadership

RamaY ji: I did not follow your post at all. Even the quoted piece is all over the place. I did not threaten anyone. I did report a few posts to moderators, that I felt were grossly out of line, in a different thread, different context. Also, BTW: criticizing is our right but not defame without reason. You may want to change the constitution, but respect it as a citizen (if you are) you must. I think you are taking words out of context and you are all over the place.

But I will answer one question. When I say we failed to stand up to the ML, I am identifying myself as a Hindu and I am putting the responsibility on Hindu leadership and society of that time for not standing up to the challenge and do feel bad, when I see similar elements at play today for I know, what will be the consequences, if we do not learn from history.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Jan 2013 13:52

RamaY wrote: Finally were you not the one who threatened to report posters who criticized the very leadership system that allowed the partition, that forced us to economic depreciation to suit its world-view, that allows and encourages religious conversions by NGOs, that failed to provide the minimum civic amenities and rule of law and that is telling us to make peace with the Islamic hordes across the border? On top of it you have the temerity to say "we" failed in protecting our dharma, "we" allowed the partition, "we" didn't make best of past 60 years of independence, "we" wrote a dhimmi constitution and now "we" are weaklings and deserve the thugs?

Uttishta Bharata!

Beautiful post RamaYjee,

These gurmeet kanwals and shauryat-s , they project their own stupidities and dhimmitudes of vacating Siachin (garbed under chanakianness), while all these sharm-al-shiekhs, siachin-withdrawal, playing dirty with Army's preparation (first Shri V.K. Singh's exposure of only two days of ammunition, then denying army the additional mountain strike-corps, when pressed sending back the proposal that all 3 services should present it together, finally when jointly presented , cut the funds with excuse of economy), now isn't ShauryaT thinking Bharatvasis getting offended about him making nasty remarks about our forefathers? So is there a fear in him that someone may take him to court over such accusations, like there was a fear in him about remarks made about g-kanwal?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 19 Jan 2013 15:20

ramana wrote:Prof Deepak Lal of UCLA:

Hello 2013: blame Nehru dynasty for India’s growth collapse

<SNIP>

As the primary language of a group determines the world view of the speakers, (see my Unintended Consequences***), the Nehruvians came to mirror their elitists European cousins and became infected with various forms of ‘noblesse oblige’ disguised as egalitarianism.

By contrast the Gandhian wing still wedded to their native tongues subscribed to Indian tradition. This as the sociologist Louis Dumont has emphasized in his Homo Hierarchicus**** was based on hierarchy, in which given the Hindu belief in reincarnation, promoting equality of outcomes (as opposed to opportunity) in this life, would reverse the just desserts which earned in a past life. The Hindu majority has thus always been an aspiring and not an egalitarian society.

<SNIP>

A double WoW!....one of the best articles to be posted on BRF. Thanks for sharing this. It opened the windows of my mind to help grasp the nuances of change sweeping through this country. Explains why Internet Hindus are are so pissed off with "Casteratti" and their acolytes in media.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Jan 2013 16:56

Read it all, these are key decision in makers in the Current UPA government. Look at what is being said

Aiyar seeks certificates of innocence for Muslim youth

Rajya Sabha MP blames TV channels for promoting communal hate campaigns to boost their viewership ratings

Congress MP and former Union Minister Mani Shankar Aiyar demanded certificates of innocence from the Central government to Muslim youth who were needlessly arrested in terrorist incidents as part of their rehabilitation.

The certificates will help them erase the stigma of having led a jail life. Otherwise, who will give them jobs, Mr. Aiyar asked at a meeting with the theme ‘Politics of terror targeting Muslim youth’ which was organised by the People’s Campaign Against Politics of Terror.

He ridiculed that the governments were more anxious to extend relief and rehabilitation to industrialists but not the poor. Thus, the Ambanis, Tatas and Birlas got a tax relief of Rs five lakh crore a year in a bid to give a push to the economy.

He said the demolition of Babri Masjid marked the breakdown of secular fabric in the country and the problem only worsened after that. He blamed the TV channels for promoting communal hate campaigns to improve their viewership ratings.

Narrating his experience as the first Consul General of India in Pakistan, Mr. Aiyar said he had received four lakh applications for visa to visit Hyderabad. But, not a single visitor turned out to be a terrorist. On the other hand, lakhs of Muslims in India faced repression from police.

FASCIST REGIME

Former CPI general secretary A.B. Bardhan said the new legislations in the name of strengthening security were converting the country into a fascist regime.

Rajya Sabha member from Uttar Pradesh Mohammed Adeeb said a deliberate attempt was made by right-wing forces to confuse 60 crore population of secular non-Muslims in the country.

The meeting was also addressed by rights activists, including a BBC correspondent Mohammed Iqbal Ahmed who said the presence of Muslims in large numbers in Parliament and Assemblies did not mean violence against the community will come down. There were nine riots already in Uttar Pradesh where 69 Muslims were elected as MLAs in a house of 470.

A professor of Jamia Millia Islamia University Manisha Sethi said the title ‘encounter specialists’ to police officers who participated in encounters should not be allowed.

Editor of Siasat daily Zahid Ali Khan, CPI State secretary K. Narayana and his counterpart of CPI (M) B.V. Raghavulu and balladeer Gadar also spoke.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 19 Jan 2013 17:26

ShauryaT wrote:Just a few days back, a person was telling me how the partition was the best thing that happened to India. Every time I hear this, cannot escape the shame and guilt of not rising up to the greatest challenge the Hindu nation faced. I cannot help wonder, how does an Indian escape the fact that we lost our land. Our leaders failed us. Our land was taken away from us into the hands of people consumed with an Adharmic ideology. BTW: Partition did not solve any problems did it? we instead got a whore, willing to let others in for a fee and screw us in the bargain. Unless, we are willing to admit, we are weaklings and deserve a bunch of thugs coming in and robbing parts of our body. Never again should be the mantra. Work on our weaknesses. Strengthen our core. Build our capacities. Let us concentrate on this essential capacity building exercise with what we got.

What BS is this ??? In one thread you are ready to play along with Islamists and give in to there demand when they have no locus standi on the issue and here you feel sorry about Hindu's and Hindu leadership !!!!!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Jan 2013 18:00

Anurag wrote: I don’t' care about Jean Dreze, that Frenchie is a big time socialist!

the creepy faker is a belgian

kish · Post by **kish** » 19 Jan 2013 18:37

Those who have low Blood pressure can read this article from "Aakar patel" (Patriotic pakistani).

How Pokhran compromised our security

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 19 Jan 2013 19:03

The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) did not think the consequences through

I don’t think the BJP considered this.

It is remarkable given their record that the BJP should act as champions of national security.

It is the BJP that set free the man who then formed Jaish-e-Mohammed, Masood Azhar. The lunatic who beheaded Daniel Pearl, Omar Saeed Sheikh, was also freed by the BJP.

This serial incompetence or disinterest in India’s security is repeated in Gujarat. Narendra Modi had no idea that his hand-picked counterterrorism chief D.G. Vanjhara was not protecting the state but hurting it. He is today in jail, charged with murder and extortion.

The facts reveal that the BJP cannot be trusted on national security or terrorism.

Aakar Patel is a writer and a columnist.and a congressi sycophant

Hence no need to waste time or get your BP high.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 19 Jan 2013 19:42

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/MIM-leader-in-trouble-over-remarks-on-Mahatma-Gandhi/articleshow/18080977.cms

"The Nizams built the state assembly building in Hyderabad, but see what has happened. They have installed a statue of Mahatma Gandhi there. Who constructed it and who has been installed there," Quadri, who represents Charminar in the assembly, told a gathering in Karimanagar district's Jagityal town on Thursday.

He said "we" have built all significant structures in India. "What have you done?" he asked. "We constructed Red Fort, Taj Mahal, Qutub Minar, Mecca Masjid and Charminar. What have you constructed in Hindustan?"

Qaudri accused the state government of targeting MIM and framing his fellow party legislator, Akbaruddin Owaisi, jailed for alleged hate speeches.

(Edited: Take the BENIS language spellings to the BENIS thread.. I don't know if you realised it but what you typed had a vicious double meaning - targeting a people who have nothing to do with this - JE Menon).

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jan 2013 19:46

^ SVenkat garu,

He is partially right. Hindus didn't construct anything substantial after independence except Somnath temple (that is why we see the rise of a NM in that region). Hindus, under the shackles of Secularism, are NOT ALLOWED to do anything that shows their strength and resilience.

India took everything from either their Islamic rapists or Colonial slave masters.

Hindus should demolish every Islamic and colonial artifact and rebuild the nation in their own image. Then all these patriotic and law-abiding minorities will fall in line.

Does it open any windows for Hindus?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 19 Jan 2013 19:56

RamaYgaaru,
Pliss be careful about your comments.Brdators have a liking for you.

I have this question for 'I am a proud beef eater' 'Aiyar'.AP is a Congress state.If police are oppressing muslims,why dont you resign from Congress and join MIM? And put your money where your musharaff is ?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jan 2013 20:25

ShauryaT wrote:
RamaY wrote: Finally were you not the one who threatened to report posters who criticized the very leadership
RamaY ji: I did not follow your post at all. Even the quoted piece is all over the place. I did not threaten anyone. I did report a few posts to moderators, that I felt were grossly out of line, in a different thread, different context. Also, BTW: criticizing is our right but not defame without reason. You may want to change the constitution, but respect it as a citizen (if you are) you must. I think you are taking words out of context and you are all over the place.

But I will answer one question. When I say we failed to stand up to the ML, I am identifying myself as a Hindu and I am putting the responsibility on Hindu leadership and society of that time for not standing up to the challenge and do feel bad, when I see similar elements at play today for I know, what will be the consequences, if we do not learn from history.

ShauryaT garu,

You are again doing the same thing. WE didnt fail to stand up to ML. The Hindus accepted it as a temporary retreat to consolidate their strength. Please note that JLN sold this very statement to Hindus during the Hindu Civil Law debates. There are three leadership streams for Hindus after independence.

1. Hindu in name only C-System: These were in power, sold Hindu Civil Law, imposed secularism and dhimmi education system. RG, KS, MSA etc the current face of this system

2. Hindu political system: The RSS and its family of nationalistic political parties. These were the ones who tried to correct the education system, reestablished RJB, went nuclear, started projects like Golden quadrangle, river linking projects etc., NM is the current face of this system.

3. Hindu civilization system: the swamy's, gurus of Hindu civilization who are doing their best to reinstall the Vedic culture and Bharatiya civilization that we are. BR, Swamy Paripoornananda etc are the current face of this system.

Now it is upto you to associate the leadership and civilization that suits you and read the history from that point of view and make strategies for future.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 19 Jan 2013 20:50

RamaY wrote: You are again doing the same thing. WE didnt fail to stand up to ML. The Hindus accepted it as a temporary retreat to consolidate their strength. Please note that JLN sold this very statement to Hindus during the Hindu Civil Law debates. There are three leadership streams for Hindus after independence.

Educate me how do you come to the conclusion that Hindus accepted partition as a "temporary retreat" and this view is not a post facto rationalization. Books, references will help. I will lookup the JLN reference but you have to admit that JLN is the last person to speak for the Hindu nation and Hindu civil law debates were about the "amelioration" of Hindu society and the discarding of Hindu laws following a western template and not aimed at its true reform. IOW: The Hindu code bills are not Hindu at all.

Anyways: Do post the books, and works that lead you to believe in the "temporary retreat" theory.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 19 Jan 2013 21:23

Sagar G wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Just a few days back, a person was telling me how the partition was the best thing that happened to India. Every time I hear this, cannot escape the shame and guilt of not rising up to the greatest challenge the Hindu nation faced. I cannot help wonder, how does an Indian escape the fact that we lost our land. Our leaders failed us. Our land was taken away from us into the hands of people consumed with an Adharmic ideology. BTW: Partition did not solve any problems did it? we instead got a whore, willing to let others in for a fee and screw us in the bargain. Unless, we are willing to admit, we are weaklings and deserve a bunch of thugs coming in and robbing parts of our body. Never again should be the mantra. Work on our weaknesses. Strengthen our core. Build our capacities. Let us concentrate on this essential capacity building exercise with what we got.
What BS is this ??? In one thread you are ready to play along with Islamists and give in to there demand when they have no locus standi on the issue and here you feel sorry about Hindu's and Hindu leadership !!!!!

Exactly, its like two different people!

ShauryaT ji,
I agree with everything you said in this thread. And yes, 'accepting partition' is a rationalization in hindsight. But, partition was not Hindu idea and it was not acceptable to Hindus either. Partition was the deal between secular leadership and MuslimLeague(who called themselves as Muslim Leadership) under the auspices of the brits.

Luckily, the secular leadership had some people like Sardar Vallabhai Patel, otherwise even Hyd would have been in pakiland and the Hindus of the place would have been genocided, just as this was done in Pakistan and BD, and even in Kashmir.

What was the biggest mistake of Hindus? It was to rely on the secular leadership which was given a Hindu coloring by one Gandi(who talked about 'Rama Rajya'). Hindus were fooled and they suffered as a consequence. The tragedy is that they continue to be fooled.

JLN is the patron saint of secularism in India. It is mostly his idea of secularism that is followed in India. According to this idea, it is the responsibility of the state to promote the 'minorities' and suppress the 'majority'. Secularism, in India, does not mean treating all individuals equally regardless of the religion. On the contrary, secularism in India means that state has to promote the 'minority' at the cost of the 'majority', that means the state will actively discriminate against the 'majority'. This strategy is, of course, detrimental to Hindus and Hinduism. But, so what? The sentiments and emotions of Hindus do not matter.

And Hindus themselves are sold on this secularism(in its current avatar) idea. So, they are responsible for their own condition. Modern India is a legacy of Mughals, Brits and dynasty. Hindus were never asked for their opinion on the policy matters and were never listened to.

But, in some threads you support the dynasty and in some threads you rue the situation of Hindus! What is this? If you are unhappy with Hindu situation and particularly the partition, then you must be angry with those responsible for this situation. Instead, you are generous towards them and even support their new initiatives. If you are generous towards them, then why are you unhappy with Hindu situation?

I am sure you are intelligent enough to understand that the present regime is absolutely against the interests of India and Hindus. Even then, you argue in their favor, particularly their initiatives like Siachin. Then, you turnaround and berate Hindus and Hindu leadership for the failures?!

You know why Hindus and Hindu leaders failed? Because of the people who call themselves Hindus but work against the interests of Hindus, because of their vested interests. Most people(general masses) do it without knowing that they are working against Hindu interests. They are ignorant. But, some(who are in position to know and understand), do it despite knowing that their actions are going to screw the interests of Hindus. One can find such people dime a dozen. And it is these people, who are the prime reason for the pathetic situation of Hindus(including the partition).

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 19 Jan 2013 21:57

Gentlemen, let me just say here that I've known Shaurya personally for a number of years. And while I don't agree with certain of his opinions, I know for a fact that he has done more- in the real world- to inculcate a sense of dharmic identity among young people, and arm them against the forces of deracination, than the vast majority of clattering keyboard warriors could ever be expected to.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jan 2013 22:01

SVenkat garu,

I am not talking about hurting the minorities or restricting their freedom of faith; as long as it doesn't hurt/disturb other religionists.

All I am asking is to remove the "colonial symbols" of the external invasions. These include the kutub minars, certain masjids standing on top of Hindu temples or built with Hindu artifacts, colonial constructs such as India gate etc.,

And replace them with Freedom gates, Memorials for Indian famine victims, memorials for soldiers who fought in WW2, war memorials, Hindu holocausts erc., Hindu bhavya temples, Hindu universities etc.,

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 19 Jan 2013 22:12

Rudradev wrote:than the vast majority of clattering keyboard warriors could ever be expected to.

I have never understood what the bolded part actually means can you please define who falls in the mentioned category and who doesn't.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Jan 2013 22:18

Rudradev wrote:Gentlemen, let me just say here that I've known Shaurya personally for a number of years. And while I don't agree with certain of his opinions, I know for a fact that he has done more- in the real world- to inculcate a sense of dharmic identity among young people, and arm them against the forces of deracination, than the vast majority of clattering keyboard warriors could ever be expected to.

+1008 Rudradevji.

Kindly note that the debate is about the points of view. There is a reason behind the tone of my posts. I can easily write my posts in a friendly and 'wisely' tone.

But I consciously chose to write the way I write because the real audience of my posts are not ShauryaT of the world. It is much more than that.

Let me give you some example. I always wondered why Sri Sri has more acceptance and fan following than say Karunasri in Telugu. Their styles go like this:

Sri Sri - "Who built the Tajmahal? Is it shajahan or is it the masons and labor that toiled day and night? Tajmahal is the symbol of exploitation of poor and hungry labor who were exploited by a sex maniac and oppressive ruler"

Karunasri - "I am the beautiful marble flower sparkling with gemstones. I am the beloved child of that mason who gave birth to me thru his hunger, sweat. How sad it is that I cannot fall at his feet in gratitude and instead forced by this heartless sultan to please his queen corpse"

Both are talking about the same point but in different tones/realms. Each serves its purpose.

It is nothing but the alchemy of Messenger-message-medium-audience. We all are just players.

Added Later: I am writing the answers for the same reason ShauryaTji is asking the question

I know ShauryaTji wouldnt get upset with my answers.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Jan 2013 04:08

ShauryaT garu,

Please go thru the constitutional assembly debates and how JLN played the political game in the shadows.

For now - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_code ... Code_Bills

Nehru’s primary purpose in instituting the Hindu Code Bills was to unify the Hindu community

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 21 Jan 2013 03:15

Rudradev wrote:Gentlemen, let me just say here that I've known Shaurya personally for a number of years. And while I don't agree with certain of his opinions, I know for a fact that he has done more- in the real world- to inculcate a sense of dharmic identity among young people, and arm them against the forces of deracination, than the vast majority of clattering keyboard warriors could ever be expected to.

RD: Thanks for that personal vote. If we all have to agree with each other all the time, then what is the need for a discussion forum. Regardless of our differences, I have no doubt who's interests you speak for or I do. Indian interest is what keeps us going, the abuses from the clattering warriors notwithstanding. Many informed views have been shunned from the forum, precisely due to these clattering warriors. I can only hope that moderation will steer the forum towards inviting more diverse and informed views so that people who do have a view can share, without being hounded.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 21 Jan 2013 03:18

Go Dharmic

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 21 Jan 2013 03:27

RamaY wrote:ShauryaT garu,

Please go thru the constitutional assembly debates and how JLN played the political game in the shadows.

For now - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_code ... Code_Bills

Nehru’s primary purpose in instituting the Hindu Code Bills was to unify the Hindu community

RamaY ji: I have the constitutional debates within the works of Subhash Kashyap's six volume History of Parliament with me. It has the constituent assembly well covered. I will lend them to you and then you can decide for yourself, what was Nehru's intent behind the Hindu code bills. You do not even have to read those volumes to come to a view that the last thing on Nehru's mind was the unification of Hindu society. Sorry, amelioration yes, unification of "Hindu" society on hindu principles No. If it was, it is a poor joke for what he did was disbanded the principles of Hindu society through these code bills. In one stroke, the entire corpus of works and learnings of the Indian civilization was disbanded.

I do not know why, you are arguing that JLN of all people thought of uniting Hindu society and that too using the Hindu code bills.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 21 Jan 2013 05:48

The best way to understand this is that - he wanted the Hindu society to remain loosely Hindu - so that the majority still somehow remained outside the Muslim clutch and therefore not raise a second Jinnah to challenge his personal power. Hindu society would be a bulwark against a future Jinnah. But at the same time any value system of thsi future Hindu society could not be allowed to be independent of dynastic definition and influence.

An independent "Hindu" value system would make dynastic role as sole arbitrator of all disputes - weak, or difficult. It would also restrict the power of the pseudo-democratic autocrat.

Hence the contradictions of the complex foxtrot evident in the debates. I hope you see that both RamaY ji and SahuryaT jis are right, depending on which aspect you choose to highlight.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Jan 2013 05:48

^
Yes, I didn't read all those debates. But I am able to understand the difference between the leadership mafia that C-system imposed on Bharat from the real leadership that we have. The issue here is to get the right leadership in to power so they have access to the national resources optimizing the national interests.

You are saying what I have already said. JLN belongs to the leadership group that sold the cool-aid to the public and pushed it using the secular education and media.

The issue is not the collective blame. The issue is the mafia hold of false leadership team on independent Bharat. So the solution is to get real leadership into power structures and not some collective self-flaggation or self-loathing.

We need to offer the readers and future generations the right root cause analysis. Unfortunately it cannot be done by referencing the false propaganda. The best approach is to develop the right intellect.

This debate is about your wrong articulation of collective blame and collective responsibility and I questioned that.

I understand the need for resources, references and so on but there is the culture (rightly or wrongly) among the members of this forum to accept any/all references to the same c-system propaganda while denouncing any other points of view as either CTs or Religious discussion. Look around any thread here, a BRAman article about saffron terrorism is an acceptable reference but a swami Paripoornananda perspective is CT or religious discussion. These are the shadows we are fighting with while the Asuras of c-system are laughing at us for our ignorance.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Jan 2013 06:58

Once again Kauravangess sitting in Indraprashtha , Yonlee Mahabharat style cleaning will do the job. We have Gandhiari , we have blind Dhitrashra on Gaddi, Mama Digguashan giving council. Durbaban being installed at the helm.yAfter the war Nag Yagana will be done to take all the snakes out who have bitten the body of Mother india .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2013 09:48

INC has become like the two-headed bird in Sindbad. One face wonders if the Pakis have responded more than expected and the other head wonders if the INC is too soft on Pakis before the 2014 elections.

Net result is blame the Ind Army which cannot respond without the stigma of coup from the media minions like Shekar Duppata.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Jan 2013 09:52

Ramanaji

I strongly believe that IA can pull off a drama to punish the pakis without appearing legally coupish. Agreed DDM will make lot of noise and some heads will roll. But the Carode Rs question is which one is better - have couple of heads taken away by Pakis or have a couple of heads roll in a c-system political drama? Can't IA take care of its brothers without GoI help?

Secondly the question of legality. What is more sacrosanct duty of IA, protecting the borders or following civilian orders? I am not a legal and constitutional expert. Appreciate some clarity.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 21 Jan 2013 10:14

brihaspati wrote: Hence the contradictions of the complex foxtrot evident in the debates. I hope you see that both RamaY ji and SahuryaT jis are right, depending on which aspect you choose to highlight.

B ji: My fundamental charge is the leadership of the time, led by the INC failed to prevent the partition of the land and failed to rise to the challenge of the ML.

I am in no denial of the magnitude of effort required to resist or have any illusions of a grand outcome even if successful, but the charge remains- they failed to rise to the challenge. The counter by some is no "it was good and a tactical retreat" and some admit that looking at the post facto situation, it was probably best. What is your view on the matter. There are probably multiple questions there.