CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Jan 2013 12:38

^^^They even had 2 Garuds with them so I doubt they didn't have some armed personnel who could guard the injured jawan. Sahu was the radio operator onboard the chopper - I presume he must be IAF?? Something stinks here.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Jan 2013 12:43

sumits_mail wrote:Is it not against SOP to leave the injured personnel on his own?

Not judging anybody just trying to know what is the standard practice in such cases?

At the moment we don't even know whether any SOP even exists for such a situation. Remember, the party on board was a mixed composition of Air Force and Police personnel. That too in peacetime.

Given the situation, the survivors did the right thing by:

1. Departing from crash site. It was expected that Naxal forces would converge on the site en masse, thus leading to gun fight where the survivors were likely to loose. There were only 2 Garuds with arms and the pilot likely carried only his personal handgun.

2. Seek medical help for injured survivor.

3. Not carry the injured survivor as it could have lead to his death.

4. Seek additional reinforcements from home base. In this case it perhaps took to long to navigate back to the same given the terrain and caution to avoid naxal forces.

Who were the other passengers other than the 2 pilots and 2 garuds?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Jan 2013 12:47

Next time set up an ambush for the naxals using a heli as a bait

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 20 Jan 2013 13:56

Sahu was the radio operator onboard the chopper - I presume he must be IAF??

Exactly what I was wondering too. How can the radio operator NOT be from IAF? News reports suggest otherwise though

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/iaf-orders-p ... 3-235.html

The IAF has maintained that the trooper injured in the attack on its aircraft belonged to the CRPF but on Friday Chhattisgarh Police Chief Ramniwas had said that the injured person belonged to the state armed police force CAF.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/maoi ... 42989.html

Even as Chhattisgarh Police's wireless operator M Kumar Sahu, injured after Maoists fired upon Indian Air Force's (IAF) Mi17 helicopter, continues to fight for his life, anger is building up among the police over what they perceive as IAF abandoning their injured.

All the while, I am wondering about the injured CAF jawan who was to be rescued in the first place. What happened of him? Was the IAF chopper fired upon before they could pick him up? Or was he on board? Something is fishy, for sure

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jan 2013 20:04

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/chhat ... ses-320454

The Ministry of Defence has asked the Indian Air Force to explain why it left behind an injured Chhattisgarh police constable and a damaged Mi-17 helicopter in the middle of the South Bastar jungles last Friday.

...

Meanwhile, reports reaching New Delhi reveal shocking details. Not only did the IAF crew which included two GARUD Commandos leave behind a severely-injured radio operator of the helicopter (he belonged to the Chhattisgarh Police) but they also abandoned two Light Machine Guns (LMG) mounted on the helicopter.

...

The pilot of the aircraft left behind his own service revolver. (Hard to believe ... why would the pilot do that?)

The COBRA commandos of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) who later rushed in to secure the abandoned helicopter and rescue the injured radio operator recovered the weapons.

...

The IAF has commissioned a Court of Inquiry into the entire event, but officially, however, it said "Quick response and professional handling of helicopter, flying it away from the fire zone to a safer zone, averted major loss of life and equipment. The complete crew then assessed the threat situation and condition of the injured jawan and decided to seek immediate medical aid."

....

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130122/j ... 470912.jsp

The defence ministry has asked the Indian Air Force for a report on last week’s Maoist attack in Chhattisgarh on a machinegun-fitted helicopter that was riddled with bullets fired by the rebels.

The home ministry is also expecting a report from the Chhattisgarh government detailing the sequence of events that Friday evening.

Police and the CRPF have reported that the helicopter crew left the scene, leaving behind an injured policeman, the chopper and even a personal weapon, a 9mm pistol.

The air force says its crew members, who walked off to the nearest police station, had acted according to norms and that the police did not “sanitise” the area where the chopper was to land, an allegation sources in the home ministry conceded was true.

The Mi-17 helicopter had been “badly damaged”, IAF sources said.

Sources said after the report from the Chhattisgarh government, the home ministry would take a view on the incident, although security forces have expressed disappointment at the IAF crew’s action.

The air force personnel, including two Garuda commandos, are accused of leaving behind not only the aircraft fitted with two light machine guns (LMGs) but also a wounded Chhattisgarh police wireless operator, M.K. Sahu.

“The IAF has cited that its crew followed standard operating procedures. Is leaving behind LMGs and even a pistol part of standard operating procedure?” a senior government official said.

A source in the CRPF said personnel from the paramilitary force “found the pistol outside the helicopter”.

Union home secretary R.K. Singh today held a meeting with CRPF director-general Pranay Sahay to discuss the situation in the area in general and the “incident” in particular.

Singh had on Saturday night declared a reward of Rs 5 lakh for the CRPF CoBRA team that secured the deserted helicopter near Maoist hotbed Timilwada and rescued Sahu, the state armed police head constable, who had taken a bullet in the leg.

Hours earlier, the Maoists had attacked a Chhattisgarh armed police road-opening party, killing head constable Baisuram Mandavi and injuring platoon commander Nandkishore Bhadoriya. The helicopter was descending for landing when it came under fire.

Sources said it was an uncomfortable situation for the home ministry and security forces that depend heavily on the air force for casualty evacuation operations. Some 100 IAF personnel, including engineers, pilots and Garuda commandos, are deployed in Chhattisgarh alone.

Any mistrust between the IAF and police and paramilitary forces could result in poor co-ordination, they warned. “We don’t want to harp on this too much right now,” said a home ministry source.

...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Jan 2013 20:43

The IAF is going to be hard pressed to explain this.

Given the situation, the survivors did the right thing by:

1. Departing from crash site. It was expected that Naxal forces would converge on the site en masse, thus leading to gun fight where the survivors were likely to loose. There were only 2 Garuds with arms and the pilot likely carried only his personal handgun.

are you kidding me??

you have 2 LMGs plus personal weapons - and you think you might get wiped out so you abandon it and an injured comrade??
what if you had run into the Naxals on the way???

If all this is true - the IAF better take a serious look at this crew!!!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jan 2013 20:45

I made that comment when it was not known that the garuds even left their lmgs. I think we do not know the full story even now.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 22 Jan 2013 20:49

Fair enough

thats why I mention "If all this is true"

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 22 Jan 2013 21:30

Abandoning an injured comrade is the worst possible thing one can do in any condition WHATSOEVER.

PS: If this is really what happened.

member_20036 · Post by **member_20036** » 23 Jan 2013 09:21

Now flying: Bullet-hit chopper back on duty
with pictures
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/01/no ... n.html?m=1

An IAF MI-17IV Helicopter was on arescue mission to Timalwara helipad on 18 January 2013. While making an approach for landing the helicopter was hit by ground fire. Multiple bullet hits had extensively damaged the fuel tank, hydraulic system, rotor blades and AC generator resulting in hot oil and fuel gushing into the passengercompartment followed by failure ofvarious systems.
The helicopter was skillfully manovered and handled by the aircrew and forced landed in a clearpatch to minimise further damage. Despite the extensive damage, our team of motivated and dedicated air warriors worked round the clock that too away from base and successfully repaired the helicopter in record time and was flown back to base at 1645 hours today (22 Jan'13).
The helicopter is fully serviceable and back into operations to support the paramilitary forces operating in that area. Having completed it job successfully the team of air warriors is now back toits operating base. (Press Release)

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 23 Jan 2013 12:49

SagarAg wrote:Abandoning an injured comrade is the worst possible thing one can do in any condition WHATSOEVER.

PS: If this is really what happened.

I personally know that it happened..

SivaVijay · Post by **SivaVijay** » 23 Jan 2013 17:36

^^
I think this whole incident is due to differences in the SOP of the armed forces and civilian police. The IAF guys may have been trained to do what they did( reach for help or try and reach frndly lines) and the Cop may have insisted that they have to stay with the chopper( which may be his SOP). We cant know for sure.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 23 Jan 2013 18:22

Aaryan wrote:
I personally know that it happened..

In that case, some serious work needs to be done by IAF and CRPF in collaborating for joint operations with each other. I understand that they needed to inform the CoBra about the whole situation. But leaving behind a comrade without any protection is strictly not acceptable. If they wanted one of them could have stayed behind to protect the radio operator and the chopper till reinforcement arrived. From the news above, it is mentioned they left behind the 2 lmg's and the the service pistol of the pilot

. Did they leave it behind for the radio operator to defend himself who could not even move.

I have 2 reasons for this action
1. Either there were strict orders for IAF not to engage the Naxals/Maoists and it was protocol to inform CoBra team if something happened.
2. They abandoned him and ran away.

I just hope and pray the radio operator gets well soon.

SivaVijay wrote:^^
I think this whole incident is due to differences in the SOP of the armed forces and civilian police. The IAF guys may have been trained to do what they did( reach for help or try and reach frndly lines) and the Cop may have insisted that they have to stay with the chopper( which may be his SOP). We cant know for sure.

IAF guys(which included 2 Garud Commandos) abandoned the chopper and the radio operator to find and inform the CoBra team of CRPF for extraction of the radio operator.
Here is detail of the whole incident written by Sqn Ldr Priya Joshi on facebook:

IAF IN SUPPORT OF GROUND FORCES

An IAF helicopter (Mi-17) got airborne at approximately 1645 hrs from Jagdalpur on a Rescue Mission to evacuate two CRPF Jawans. On approaching the area of evacuation, the helicopter descended to land when it was fired upon which resulted in extensive damage to the helicopter and injury to the CRPF Jawan, Radio Operator present onboard. Assessing the situation, the pilot of the helicopter manoeuvred the helicopter away to a nearby field to land safely. After successfully landing the helicopter the damage assessment indicated that the helicopter had taken multiple hits (ground fire) and had severely damaged fuel and hydraulic oil tank. Quick response and professional handling of helicopter, flying it away from the fire zone to a safer zone, averted major loss of life and equipment. The complete crew then assessed the threat situation and condition of the injured CRPF Jawan and decided to seek immediate medical help for injured Jawan who was immobilised and also to secure the helicopter. The crew reached the CRPF Camp at Chintalgufa and informed them of the exact location which was then communicated to the search party ( CRPF Cobra Team) helping them reach the location. The CRPF Cobra Team thereafter reached the spot and secured the helicopter. Since the injured CRPF Jawan could not be moved due to injuries suffered, he was airlifted in the morning today from Chintalgufa to Jagdalpur and from Jagdalpur to Raipur by a special IAF aircraft. An enquiry has been ordered into the incident.

Sqn Ldr Priya Joshi

srin · Post by **srin** » 23 Jan 2013 19:19

Aaryan wrote:
SagarAg wrote:Abandoning an injured comrade is the worst possible thing one can do in any condition WHATSOEVER.

PS: If this is really what happened.

I personally know that it happened..

Without knowing the Rules of Engagement, difficult to assess independently *why* it happened ...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jan 2013 19:35

come on

lets not pussy foot around it

there is no ROE which is going to say, all of you hightail it and leave a wounded guy behind

there was no ROE which said that the 2 Delta guys had to go down and be with the blackhawk pilots in Somalia

you just do not leave a wounded comrade behind except maybe if you are heading into a mission

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jan 2013 19:50

Surya wrote:come on

lets not pussy foot around it

there is no ROE which is going to say, all of you hightail it and leave a wounded guy behind

there was no ROE which said that the 2 Delta guys had to go down and be with the blackhawk pilots in Somalia

you just do not leave a wounded comrade behind except maybe if you are heading into a mission

Surya, I told you from the beginning that something was seriously wrong with the incident of IAF crew hightailing leaving the CRPF man and helicopter behind. Basically, they left the helicopter and the CRPF guy to their own devices...Even if this was done under the ROE drafted by IAF HQ for operations in such areas - that men need to ensure that they cannot fall into hands of Maoists even if equipment does - I cannot understand leaving the injured CRPF Jawan behind. I have asked this earlier - would the IAF men have left behind an injured IAF personnel?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Jan 2013 19:57

rohit

yup - looks like a serious screwup or worse.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 24 Jan 2013 00:46

Surya-saar/Rohitvats-saar, sounds like a very junior crew

Would be surprising if the crew did include any more experienced personnel. If so, looks like some retraining might be needed.

Some thoughts from their POV:
1) might have thought the camp is really close by and they can dash for it in a light sprint.
2) stampede trigger could have been the senior most (by age) amongst them doing it

There is no good side to this story. I wish the need for copters is not there. They raise the profile of law-enforcement operations to unacceptable levels.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 24 Jan 2013 01:22

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/iaf- ... 42997.html

Not surprisingly, the Chhattisgarh Police are upset that the IAF crew of the Mi-17 chopper that was forced to crashland abandoned an injured Chhattisgarh Police wireless operator, S.R. Sahu, and the helicopter as they went looking for the nearest police base in the area.

The IAF, however, praised its pilots. "Quick response and professional handling of the helicopter, flying it away from the fire zone to a safer zone, averted major loss of life and equipment. The crew then assessed the threat situation and the condition of the injured policeman and decided to arrange immediate medical help for him...," an IAF spokesperson said in New Delhi.

Sahu was onboard the Mi-17 on way to pick up two injured Chhattisgarh Armed Force (CAF) personnel at Tamelwada in Sukma district, some 500km from state capital Raipur. As the helicopter came low searching for a place to land, it came under fire from Maoists. It immediately climbed and left the place without landing to pick up the injured jawans.

According to sources, the chopper was hit by as many as 10 bullets with one of the bullets piercing the fuel tank and another hitting Sahu near his waist. The pilot flew the chopper some 25km ahead and crashlanded on an agricultural field 3km from the Chintagufa CRPF base camp. The IAF personnel (6 in number including 2 Garuds) then abandoned the chopper and an injured Sahu and headed for the CRPF camp.

"They managed to locate the Chintagufa base camp and informed about the incident. Reinforcements then left for the site," said Sonal Mishra, state police spokesperson and AIG (special intelligence bureau).

The Chhattisgarh Police said they were shocked that the injured policeman was left without any assistance or first aid inside the chopper. There were also weapons inside the Mi-17, which were left behind in the forest area for several hours till help arrived. "The injured wireless operator was brought to the camp after midnight, perhaps at around 3am or so," Mishra said.

One of the two jawans that the chopper had been sent initially to evacuate died later because of excessive bleeding The other, along with Sahu, was airlifted to Raipur on Saturday for treatment.

Kudos to the pilots up till the point they crash landed the chopper safely. After that some serious judgmental errors by them. On one hand IAF is praising them for their efforts. Seriously(6 of them abandoned the radio operator and didn't even provide first aid to him)??

And on the other hand CRPF is expressing shock over this incident. Quite a teamwork going on here.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 01 Feb 2013 21:14

Some more details coming from IAF side. There is no defence yet of the actions on the ground; instead the air force has countered on the fact that lapses on CRPF side allowed the heptr to get shot in the first place.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130131/j ... Qvlwb9QHgc

...

A ballistics analysis of the bullet marks on the superstructure and inside the cabin of the helicopter has concluded that it was targeted by small arms from a distance of less than 500 metres when it was barely 50 metres in the air and descending to land.

A court of inquiry ordered by the air headquarters is yet to submit its report but a preliminary assessment has concluded that the helicopter took flak even after three signals from the police that it was cleared to land.

According to the standard operating procedures for Op Triveni, IAF helicopters will take off from base (Jagdalpur) only after they are assured that the destination helipad is safe. On January 18, the helicopter was requested past 4pm, late in the day for a sortie in fading light for a night-blind Mi 17.

The Indian Air Force wants to bridge the “trust deficit” with the state administrations through a commitment that standard operating procedures outlining how ground forces should secure a helipad in the rough terrain in Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand and in areas where Naxalites have influence, are enforced.

The police are required to call in IAF helicopters to move troops, equipment, ration and casualties only after ensuring that there is no presence of Naxalites within a radius of 1.5-2km of the landing zone, that is only after making certain that the helipad is out of the range of the rebels’ small arms fire.

Since “Op Triveni” began in 2010, Indian Air Force helicopters have been targeted at least 12 times by the rebels. They have been hit at least five times (a strike rate of 41.6 per cent). But only once — on January 18 — were the attackers able to immobilise the helicopter that had to be left in the jungles for more than 24 hours till IAF engineers could salvage it. The Mi 17 is now back in operation.

In August last year, IAF helicopter pilot Wing Commander V.K. Singh was awarded the Shaurya Chakra gallantry medal for a mission in December 2011 in which he flew a Mi 17 helicopter to evacuate CRPF personnel in Chhattisgarh. He flew the helicopter to base even after it was hit by ground fire from automatic weapons.

...

In Op Triveni, that is now just over three years old, IAF helicopters have flown 6,067 sorties, lifting 34,884 troops, 192 casualties and trained 1,500 policemen, an air headquarters source said.

Read it in full.

The statistics indicate a rather high tempo of operations. It is quite alarming that the naxals are able to target the heliocopters so often.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Feb 2013 03:10

There is no defence yet of the actions on the ground

seems that it was true and indefensible and resulting in all sort of stats being thrown around

from Vietnam days insurgents have trained to shoot down helos if needed

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 02 Feb 2013 16:04

x-posting
This is just a hunch, but are the beheadings linked to the piglet pest removal spree that was going on?
I mean the army raked up a lot of numbers, so there can be a response from the jihadi kamandus, either uniformed or non-uniformed. And the attack happened in a different sector than the shooting and shelling.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Feb 2013 01:16

All eyes on the CoI now, which hopefully will examine all aspects of the incident aside from the flight safety related issues.

Being the only one of the services in this campaign, the IAF as a whole has to shoulder the expectations of the police forces on the ground. Specifically for Garud Force, Op Triveni is a chance to raise its profile and establish a reputation for itself. Their counterparts from the Navy for example, have proved themselves in Sri Lanka and J&K amongst other operations.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 300069.cms

NEW DELHI: IAF has now decided to deploy four Garud commandos on each of its helicopters undertaking logistical duties in the ongoing anti-Naxalite operations....

IAF is also planning to complain to the home ministry about the "failure" of the police forces to "sanitize" the required 1.5-km area around the helipad since helicopters are the most vulnerable while taking off and landing.

...

Refuting that the IAF personnel had "abandoned" Sahu and the unguarded helicopter that was armed with two light machine guns, a senior officer on Friday said the injured policeman could not have been moved on foot since it would have proved fatal for him.

Moreover, the two Garud commandos had themselves sustained "chemical burn injuries" on being sprayed with hydraulic oil and aviation turbine fuel after the helicopter's "hydraulic accumulator and high-pressure fuel pipelines" were hit by bullets.

"The crew then took the decision to get help for Sahu as well as security for the helicopter. I am not saying whether the decision was right or wrong but it was taken by the men on the spot, who also did not want to be taken hostage. The ongoing court of inquiry is looking into all these things," the IAF officer said.

As part of the overall review of standard operating procedures and flying tactics, which includes deploying four Garud commandos on each helicopter, IAF is also looking at "technological solutions" in the form of long-range radars to detect unusual activity on the ground.

http://www.asianage.com/india/iaf-defen ... attack-252

The two IAF commandos — who were aboard the Mi-17 helicopter hit by naxalites recently in Chhattisgarh — were drenched in fuel and suffered burns after a Naxal bullet pierced through the fuel pipeline of the helicopter, top defence sources said on Friday. Sources said the two “Garud” IAF commandos were incapacitated and fuel had even entered their eyes, leaving them no option but to leave the helicopter. Sources also said the IAF personnel on board wanted to ensure they were not taken hostage by naxalites as it would have led to an unprecedented crisis ...

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 05 Feb 2013 22:15

Govt wants action against Air Force pilots who abandoned injured Chhattisgarh wireless operator
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/govt- ... topstories

It makes my blood boil when the media is trying to pin the blame on the IAF crew, and I can say from interactions with serving IAF pilots that there is a great deal of resentment about how this incident is being portrayed, inspite of how much the IAF has done to support these ops (that is a story in itself).

1. The primary failing is the failure of the CRPF to sanitize the LZ. This is being conveniently ignored or undermined, inspite of the IAF warning about this for years now.

2. The main issue --- leaving the injured crewman behind.

The fact is the Mi-17 helicopter was shot down by small arms fire. Once the helicopter has been shot down and is incapable of flying again, the rules are this --- mind you these are unwritten rules.

The crew when shot down is in SERE mode --- SERE is Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape . In SERE it is essentially every man for himself. There is no written obligation to 'not leave a comrade behind'.

Officially you are under orders to do everything you can to avoid capture by the enemy --- read carefully --- everything you can.

The crew was in no way wrong to leave the injured policeman behind. Also, this argument about leaving weapons behind is bunkum, as the crew is allowed to judge the circumstances in which either they can disable the weapon or just throw them, save the weight and run. Same is the case with the helicopter, they could have just destroyed the helicopter or leave it and run. The essence here is to ---- avoid capture by the enemy, period.

I'm sure it was not an easy decision to leave an injured man behind, but the implications of being captured by the enemy are worse.

I hope common sense prevails. It would be tragic and have very long-term impacts on morale if the careers of the crew involved are impacted by this.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 05 Feb 2013 22:44

It makes my blood boil when the media is trying to pin the blame on the IAF crew, and I can say from interactions with serving IAF pilots that there is a great deal of resentment about how this incident is being portrayed,

It makes my blood boil that everyone blames the media for everything that happens around. If IAF pilots have a great deal of resentment then they should come out and say(have a press conference) in the open what actually happened so that the incident is portrayed correctly. Resenting inside helps no one.

inspite of how much the IAF has done to support these ops (that is a story in itself).

They were following their duties. IAF is not favoring by helping CRPF. 100 right things doesn't make a wrong thing right.

1. The primary failing is the failure of the CRPF to sanitize the LZ. This is being conveniently ignored or undermined, inspite of the IAF warning about this for years now.

Agreed.

2. The main issue --- leaving the injured crewman behind.

The fact is the Mi-17 helicopter was shot down by small arms fire. Once the helicopter has been shot down and is incapable of flying again, the rules are this --- mind you these are unwritten rules.

No one needs to follow any unwritten rules. As far as I know you cannot read again you STRICTLY CANNOT leave a comrade behind and run away.

The crew when shot down is in SERE mode --- SERE is Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape . In SERE it is essentially every man for himself. There is no written obligation to 'not leave a comrade behind'.

I thought the crew was shot down in a rescue mission.

. And whatever this rule is its total BS.

Officially you are under orders to do everything you can to avoid capture by the enemy --- read carefully --- everything you can.

In that case they should have shot the radio man themselves since he was unable to move and had the risk of being captured by the Maoists/Naxals. Right?

The crew was in no way wrong to leave the injured policeman behind.

The crew was in every way wrong in leaving the injured policeman behind. They didn't even provide the basic first aid to the radio operator. Mind you the crew included 2 Garud commands.

They abandoned the radio operator and ran away.

Also, this argument about leaving weapons behind is bunkum, as the crew is allowed to judge the circumstances in which either they can disable the weapon or just throw them, save the weight and run. Same is the case with the helicopter, they could have just destroyed the helicopter or leave it and run. The essence here is to ---- avoid capture by the enemy, period.

This is laughable. Have you read the article. They left their personal service pistol behind.

.

I'm sure it was not an easy decision to leave an injured man behind, but the implications of being captured by the enemy are worse.

I hope common sense prevails.

I hope so too.

It would be tragic and have very long-term impacts on morale if the careers of the crew involved are impacted by this.

They have already made an impact on the image of IAF by their serious lapse in dealing with the situation. This incident should be strictly dealt by the IAF.
I pray Y L Sahu gets well soon.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 05 Feb 2013 22:53

yes..not sure.. about the whole thing.. hopefully new engagement rules will emerge out of it. I am not sure how the camaraderie work when armed forces individual works in tandem with paramilitary guys. May be they are looked down upon? Who knows? During the BDR days the some of the commanders were deputed from Bangladesh Army and apparently they treated the BDR folks real bad which lead to whole Pilkhana massacre. Hope we will get the root of this problem and draft clear engagement rule...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Feb 2013 23:14

The crew when shot down is in SERE mode --- SERE is Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape . In SERE it is essentially every man for himself. There is no written obligation to 'not leave a comrade behind'.

Biggest pile of manure I have seen in a long time

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 05 Feb 2013 23:28

@SagarAg

We seem to have got this notion of 'leave no man behind' from seeing too much of Hollywood and reading Tom Clancy types.

SERE is every man for himself. Once crashed deep in enemy territory, if one incapacitated person is at risk of capture, it is stupid for other able bodied men to either get killed or captured shielding him.

I find this argument of two Garud commandos again laughable because if they had been outnumbered no training would have saved them. They are mortals.

As of the service pistols, it is not uncommon for crews to stow their personal weapons in their seat backs or under the seats. Frankly have you been shot down in enemy territory? A pistol is not going to do much against enemies armed with assault rifles. It is possible that hearing fire in the distance or apprehending an approaching force, they left in the instant after the crash.

From what I hear, the crew followed laid down procedures to the letter -- they avoided capture by the enemy. I think we must be glad this did not turn into a bigger disaster or we faced the saga of uniformed defence servicemen held hostage by the naxals. It would have been a historical propaganda victory for the naxals if they had managed to parade the IAF crewmen alive or dead.

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 05 Feb 2013 23:35

@Surya

Sad that after 4,000-odd posts you need a silly emoticon and a pile of manure to make an argument.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Feb 2013 00:18

Thats all that line deserved IMO and all that

If a uniformed person leaves behind another (other than an inbound ops) then that's just wrong

leaving behind LMGs and personal weapons makes it worse

IAF \you can spin all you want - there are not takers for it

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 06 Feb 2013 00:34

We seem to have got this notion of 'leave no man behind' from seeing too much of Hollywood and reading Tom Clancy types.

You seem to have got a notion that they are common people and not men in uniform.

SERE is every man for himself. Once crashed deep in enemy territory, if one incapacitated person is at risk of capture, it is stupid for other able bodied men to either get killed or captured shielding him.

As Surya ji said this SERE is the biggest BS I have heard after a long time. Deep in enemy territory

What article are you reading anand ji. They crash landed the chopper 2 kms from the CRPF base camp.

I find this argument of two Garud commandos again laughable because if they had been outnumbered no training would have saved them. They are mortals.

By this logic Jews should have already abandoned Israel. Right?

But they are kicking their enemy's a**. Have you forgotten Battle of Longewala

They are SOLDIERS meant to fight.

As of the service pistols, it is not uncommon for crews to stow their personal weapons in their seat backs or under the seats. Frankly have you been shot down in enemy territory? A pistol is not going to do much against enemies armed with assault rifles. It is possible that hearing fire in the distance or apprehending an approaching force, they left in the instant after the crash.

They had 2 lmg's as well and I don't know what other equipments. Your argument about service pistols is totally baseless.

From what I hear, the crew followed laid down procedures to the letter -- they avoided capture by the enemy. I think we must be glad this did not turn into a bigger disaster or we faced the saga of uniformed defence servicemen held hostage by the naxals. It would have been a historical propaganda victory for the naxals if they had managed to parade the IAF crewmen alive or dead.

Don't write anything without any proof/substance or for the heck of argument. There are no such laid down procedure to abandon your comrade and save your a** in any situation WHATSOEVER.
I sincerely hope that IAF and the CRPF get their differences sorted out and get their act together. It will act as a huge catalyst in our counter-naxals operations.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 06 Feb 2013 02:10

Frustation speaks.. everyone here IAF/CRPF/GoI are frustated, because there is no cohesion , and people talk about creating regiments based on caste.. truck load of manure is lying on the streets because those who are supposed to think cant think.
They just talk.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 06 Feb 2013 02:56

The IAF men who abandoned the injured CRPF trooper in a damaged helo do not deserve to be in IAF. The one thing that this episode highlighted is their lack of character. Yes during SERE scenarios soldiers can easily get separated during firefights and then its each man to its own. But this case is different. These IAF men abandoned a fighting colleague who was also injured and unable to move on his own.

I am saying all this even when I am not a fan of CRPF and their operations against naxals(which will eventually backfire).

One simply cannot leave an injured colleague behind. And no it is not something out of Tom Clancy/Hollywood. This happens in real life too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lt._Navdeep_Singh

Lt. Navdeep Singh Saini was a Ghatak Platoon Commander of 15 Maratha Light Infantry regiment in the Indian Army.[1]

He led an operation to ambush 17 well-trained and armed terrorists who infiltrated into Jammu and Kashmir state. He killed 4 of the terrorists and brought an injured team member to safety before succumbing to fatal injury from close range. He was posthumously conferred the highest peacetime gallantry award of India Ashok Chakra by President of India on the 63rd Republic Day.[2][3]

.....

After waiting till terrorists were just meters away, he cornered the infiltrators before attack.[2][4][5][6] He had positioned himself in least cover point and his team behind boulders, before attacking. He shot dead 3 terrorists when he was shot on his head from about 5 meters distance while trying to pull an injured soldier to safety. He nevertheless killed the fourth terrorist. He managed to pull his comrade-in-arms to safety and kept firing till death

This is the hallmark of a real warrior.

I just hope that these IAF men will resign on their own and save their honor(whatever is remaining of it).

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 06 Feb 2013 16:01

I wouldn't be surprised if the GoI wants to prosecute IAF men since CRPF men were involved here. Home ministry always wants to be one up on the defence ministry.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 08 Feb 2013 20:02

X posting from aviation thread...

Sagar G wrote:
He suggested that the IAF team on the chopper had left the chopper and the injured police man as they wanted to avoid being taken hostage in the area infested with Maoists.
If so is the case then why leave the cop to be taken hostage by the Maoists ???

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 08 Feb 2013 20:51

I think the IAF is making a big mistake - spin it as a learning experience , we will put new procedures etc and move on.
if you pooh pooh it - this will keep surfacing

its starting to sound ludicrous

we now have the LMG jammed

next you will hear the two Garuds Tavor were covered in aviation oil and thus were non working
the service pistol was jammed behind the seat in the hard landing

and on and on and on

simble question

is instead of a CRPF radio operator it was an IAF person - would the team do the same?? lets see the ACM answer that one

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 08 Feb 2013 21:28

Surya wrote:I think the IAF is making a big mistake

its starting to sound ludicrous

we now have the LMG jammed

next you will hear the two Garuds Tavor were covered in aviation oil and thus were non working
the service pistol was jammed behind the seat in the hard landing

and on and on and on

simble question

is instead of a CRPF radio operator it was an IAF person - would the team do the same?? lets see the ACM answer that one

Has MoD/IAF/CRPF revealed the names of the personnel involved in the incident except the radio operator Y.L Sahu.

Siddhu · Post by **Siddhu** » 08 Feb 2013 23:22

wt do people expect from IAF men ? magically heal the injured one ? or every one becomes sunny deol ,uproot a near by tree(hand pump if there) and charge towards 100s of naxal ? or lift the injured man with one finger and walk( fly ) jollily to near by Hospital ? or become powerful mutant with the ability to generate and control magnetic fields to control metal bullets in case of firing by naxal ? or may be they should have died then media and all would be happy and supportive.

sitting at home and trashing is easy ..

Few people have gone to an extent of calling IAF men liars and cowards and it's pathetic .Dude they protect our nation , they spent their lives in service of nation ,give them some respect wait for the proper explanation ,stop assuming things ,u were not there , u don't know the circumstances ,stop insulting IAF based on assumption(s).

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 08 Feb 2013 23:36

Siddhu wrote: wt do people wanted IAF men to do ? magically heal the injured one ? or every one becomes sunny deol ,uproot a near by tree and charge towards 100s of naxal ? or lift the injured man with one finger and walk( fly ) jollily to near by Hospital ? or become powerful mutant with the ability to generate and control magnetic fields to control metal bullets in case of firing by naxal ? or may be they should have died then media and all would be happy and supportive.

sitting at home and trashing is easy ..

Few people have gone to an extent of calling IAF men liars and cowards and it's pathetic .Dude they protect our nation , they spent their lives in service of nation ,give them some respect wait for the proper explanation ,stop assuming things ,u were not there , u don't know the circumstances ,stop insulting IAF based on assumption(s).

Where are the assumptions ?

Tell me one thing which is based on assumptions. As far as protecting people is concerned there is no doubt about that IAF is doing that. And there is no one who don't have utmost respect for IAF as an institution. Its not about IAF its about the crew involved in this incident. No names except YL Sahu has been revealed. Why

Why is IAF beating around the bush. If they have made a mistake no need to admit it if it embarrasses them but do take corrective measures next time if such thing God forbid happens again.

As far as comparing our Jawans with Sunny paaji is concerned Sunny paaji just showed the tip of the iceberg of what our Jawans actually do in real life.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 08 Feb 2013 23:42

I dont think any more explanations are forth coming, because then they will be making up stuff. This is an unfortunate incident and I feel this might be caused due to inexperience of the parties involved. It is easy to make bad decisions by juniors, since they might not do an analysis of long term effects. Particularly under such stress

Here is what I believe might have happened
- came under fire, getting worried
- craft in trouble, panic all round
- landed and all feel relieved to be alive
- someone expressed that the camp is nearby and some of them make a sprint to get help
- everyone thinks it is a good idea, but who stays back?

At that point, either of this happened.
- an altercation ending in independent sprints to camp by the two services's personnel
- sprinters were identified and they left, but fear of kidnapping caused the rest to join the initial sprinters

I do sympathize with them all, including the wounded, the IAF junior personnel and CRPF folks. It is not a foreign country, it is goddamn India that they are in. So they might have thought they can make that sprint. All of them need to be retrained and redeployed back in the same sector.

Regardless, the IAF big brass really need to get serious in how to talk in public, be it this incident or at Aero-India. Earlier similar vein when LCA was being handed over by the former chief. This is no western-aping "plain talk", just old fashioned curmudgeon-mama-at-marriages style chaploosi. Highly inauspicious and ungracious.