Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Singha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Jan 2013 09:08

since A4 is A2-AT, it is 20mts long and will be one of the longest cansisters for cold launch in the world if its done.
much needed though if as tsarkar claims it is meant for precision long strike with HE only, it will need to move around with non-strategic formations.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 19 Jan 2013 09:13

if Nirbhay at greater than 800km range is termed as medium range CM, the LRCM should have even longer range, however an article published on livefist an year back or so mentions the LRCM range as 600kms

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby keshavchandra » 19 Jan 2013 16:20

Nirbhay to be test-fired in February

Nirbhay, India’s first subsonic cruise missile, will be test-fired by the end ofFebruary, said V K Saraswat, director general of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and scientific advisor to defence minister A K Antony. Saraswat was speaking to the mediaduring a seminar on ‘Nurturing, Managing and Institutionalising Innovation’ organised by the Defence Research and Develoment Laboratory (DRDL) here on Friday.

While 2012 was an eventful year for the defence organisation with almost a dozen successful launches of various kinds of missiles, this year also promises to be big with many more plans underway. “Nirbhay will be a medium-range cruise missile with advantages like the ability of not being detected and high accuracy. It is also acheaper option,” Saraswat said.

Asked if there were any hitches in test-firing the missile as it was expected to have taken place sometime back, Saraswat said some processes had been developed and there were no hitches.

This year, a major plan of the DRDO is ‘canisterisation’ of Agni IV and Agni V, which will enable firing of the missile from any platform. Another plan was to integrate Astra-III with Sukhoi. He said four Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would be produced this year and in 2014, the necessary operational clearances would be sought.

The DRDO has also carried out 50 of the 56 modifications sought for the Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun Mark-II variant by the user. The rest of the modifications will be carried out in the next few months. Saraswat said the Long Range Cruise Missile (LRCM) will have all futuristic features.

Saraswat informed that they had got permissions for the missile testing range proposed at Machilipatnam. “It is a barren piece of land and we will turn it into a green area. There will be no environmental issues,” he said. Talking about the civilian applications of defence technology, he said that the bio-digesters (toilets) were much in demand and there was a proposal with the tourism ministry on using them in buses.

Another important application would be the kit for detection of dengue. The kits developed by DRDO will take just two hours to confirm a dengue case while the kits available elsewhere take 24 hours. Saraswat said thatthe technology has already been transferred to manufacturers of the anti-mosquito ‘attracticide’, which isavailable in the market.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 20 Jan 2013 09:01

vasu raya wrote:if Nirbhay at greater than 800km range is termed as medium range CM, the LRCM should have even longer range, however an article published on livefist an year back or so mentions the LRCM range as 600kms


Looking at the delays, they may have created Mk-1 and Mk-2 of Nirbhay. Mk-1 would have 500-600 km range (evolution of Nirbhay with different engine, avionics etc) , while Mk-2 would be the LRCM of 1500 km range.

Just speculating - I hope I'm wrong.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 20 Jan 2013 09:06

Singha wrote:since A4 is A2-AT, it is 20mts long and will be one of the longest cansisters for cold launch in the world if its done.
much needed though if as tsarkar claims it is meant for precision long strike with HE only, it will need to move around with non-strategic formations.


The chances of a nuclear power using a IRBM or ICBM for conventional strike on another nuclear power is pretty much zero. There will always be a fear that the adversary might read this as the first shot in a nuke strike and might order a second strike.

A lot of complex game theory analysis was done in the cold war times about these (and most went over my head), but I don't think politicians will take chances.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 20 Jan 2013 09:27

srin wrote:The chances of a nuclear power using a IRBM or ICBM for conventional strike on another nuclear power is pretty much zero. There will always be a fear that the adversary might read this as the first shot in a nuke strike and might order a second strike. A lot of complex game theory analysis was done in the cold war times about these (and most went over my head), but I don't think politicians will take chances.
The cold war ended 20 years ago, and those calculations were rendered irrelevant by 1. Iraqi Scud bombardment in 90's 2. Continued bombardment of Israel by Hamas/Hizb-ul-Allah 3. Chinese deployment of SRBM/IRBM against Taiwan & to a smaller extent in Tibet 4. Chinese development of DF-21.

Salvoes of scores of missiles can be interpreted as "First Strike" but a couple fired here & there cannot.

If a DF-21 is used against a USN Destroyer, it will still not give US reason to nuke whole of China.

The continued development of A4 when A5 is available, and the efforts made to improve its accuracy indicates a role beyond nuclear delivery.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 20 Jan 2013 22:17

tsarkar wrote:The continued development of A4 when A5 is available, and the efforts made to improve its accuracy indicates a role beyond nuclear delivery.


But will it give bang for the buck ??? What roles do you see for A4 that a cruise missile cannot achieve ??? To top that a nuclear armed adversary might consider it a nuke attack and retaliate with there nukes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 20 Jan 2013 23:30

^^^
It will certainly give the bang for the buck if it is Prithvi that is declared to be a conventional strike weapon only the way BK wants. IAF has advertised how they have a list of 5000 targets in Pakiland. All capital ships all power stations, all armour concentrations, all factories and that to without having to run the gauntlet of any kind.

If it is an Agni then personally I see it as one less delivery vehicle for an arsenal that can confidently be fielded only on an inventory of a Boosted fission variety ergo larger number of warheads. And all that on a bunch of targets that perhaps are not near the war theater.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 20 Jan 2013 23:33

tsarkar wrote:The cold war ended 20 years ago, and those calculations were rendered irrelevant by 1. Iraqi Scud bombardment in 90's 2. Continued bombardment of Israel by Hamas/Hizb-ul-Allah..
And what was their military effectiveness? AFAIK They were primarily used as weapons of terror. Also these entities had no real options when it comes to weapons that can reach their adversary.
Chinese development of DF-21. ..
If a DF-21 is used against a USN Destroyer, it will still not give US reason to nuke whole of China.
In this case the missiles will be launched against moving targets at sea, away from any civilian populations or military establishments.
Salvoes of scores of missiles can be interpreted as "First Strike" but a couple fired here & there cannot.
How are you so sure that the enemy's reaction will be discriminate between the two?

The continued development of A4 when A5 is available, and the efforts made to improve its accuracy indicates a role beyond nuclear delivery.[/quote] I am skeptical.
BTW I remember there was a plan by the americans to convert some of their redundant Minuteman and Trident ICBMs into conventional strike role, which was shelved because of(at least in part) a Russian warning.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 20 Jan 2013 23:42

Sagar G wrote:What roles do you see for A4 that a cruise missile cannot achieve
A better phrasing of the question would be, "What roles do you see for SRBM/IRBM that a cruise missile cannot achieve"? One of the answers is here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... Dacca.html
option was to undertake a steep glide bombing attack along the length of the runway. This method ensured much greater accuracy, deep penetration of the bombs before exploding and, therefore, causing far greater damage.
Cruise missile cannot do this, which is why IAF has acquired these -
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... e32683.ece
http://article.wn.com/view/2010/12/22/I ... missile_i/
http://vayu-sena.indianmilitaryhistory. ... EL_IAF.jpg
Sagar G wrote:But will it give bang for the buck
Certainly cheaper than losing aircraft over well defended airfields. Check indicative IAF losses over Tezgaon/Kurmitola here http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.in/2012 ... -1971.html

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 20 Jan 2013 23:54

Besides cheaper Cruise missiles of Nirbhay kind that can be deployed in numbers are not yet in and will be slow unlike a BM.

Brahmos is more a sniping weapon usage of which can be justified only if the target is very difficult.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 20 Jan 2013 23:55

abhik wrote:BTW I remember there was a plan by the americans to convert some of their redundant Minuteman and Trident ICBMs into conventional strike role, which was shelved because of(at least in part) a Russian warning.


Today, Russia is eager to explore that same option it opposed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Kanson » 21 Jan 2013 00:01

keshavchandra wrote:Is any update on prahaar missile? Its being a long after the initial trial test, there is not any info or update. Even the intentions of IA is yet not clear for its induction or role till now.

Prahaar test is a DRDO proposal to IA. Just a proposal. IA post test has to study and formalize their request in which way/config they want their Prahaar.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 21 Jan 2013 00:18

Smerch lobby will kill Prahaar. It will be like T-90 vs Arjun!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby RamaY » 21 Jan 2013 00:21

:mrgreen:

IA/IAF/IN are customers of DRDO. GoI is the political master-bin-action of IA/IAF/IN. DRDO is an arm of GoI.

Who is Sita to Rama?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SagarAg » 21 Jan 2013 00:30

:idea: Prahaar for Export to interested countries. :) Anybody?? :?:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Jan 2013 04:04

sell it too iran and afghans to stir the mid-east club.. so that we can get some freedom to choose what we want to deploy lest firangi invasions. these tactics are nothing more than street fist fights.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Philip » 21 Jan 2013 04:49

With such a variety of tactical missiles being developed,we could sell some of these to friends like Vietnam/ASEAN nations instead,where they would have a pro-active role in a forward defence against the PRC. Iran in any case has against all odds,developed its own ballistic missiles and does not need ours.It has also reverse engineered Chinese Silkworm anti-ship cruise missiles,improving on the original.Remember how one of these used by the Hiz in Lebanon struck an Israeli missile corvette,almost sinking it? med. and LR cruise missiles are needed by our naval forces including subs,to strike at the enemy at longer ranges ,out of range of current defences.A recent RFP was issued for med. range subsonic anti-ship missiles for the IN,to replace ancient Styx and others in service,most probably replacing those on the missile corvettes.The 700km range newer missiles would be better used aboard larger warships and subs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 21 Jan 2013 05:06

vic wrote:Smerch lobby will kill Prahaar. It will be like T-90 vs Arjun!

Once again Smerch is not in the same class as Prahaar. It is Pinaka (2) not Prahaar that competes with it

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 21 Jan 2013 19:15

tsarkar wrote:Cruise missile cannot do this, which is why IAF has acquired these


Well there are some cruise missiles which came up during searching which can fulfill this role one is French Apache and the other one which came up is a cancelled version of Tomahawk variant AGM-109H which made way for AGM-158 JASSM though I couldn't find any reference for AGM-158 possessing anti runway capability. Both the French and the cancelled American CMs have range less than that of prithvi being employed by IAF. But seeing the recent news about sub-munition research and the upcoming test of Nirbhay we can safely assume that IAF must be looking towards Nirbhay for fulfilling this role cause launching BMs for conventional strikes against a nuclear adversary poses a great risk of starting an unintended nuclear war.

tsarkar wrote:Certainly cheaper than losing aircraft over well defended airfields.


Definitely but A4 or any of the Agni series BM's is an overkill if we have to use it against runways.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 21 Jan 2013 20:50

Sagar G wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Cruise missile cannot do this, which is why IAF has acquired these


Well there are some cruise missiles which came up during searching which can fulfill this role one is French Apache and the other one which came up is a cancelled version of Tomahawk variant AGM-109H which made way for AGM-158 JASSM though I couldn't find any reference for AGM-158 possessing anti runway capability. Both the French and the cancelled American CMs have range less than that of prithvi being employed by IAF. But seeing the recent news about sub-munition research and the upcoming test of Nirbhay we can safely assume that IAF must be looking towards Nirbhay for fulfilling this role cause launching ..

^^^
Anti-runway specific munitions are quite common, for example the Matra Durandal. Note that it is designed to be dropped from low altitudes which makes it perfect for a cruise missile.
Also its been reported that some 24(?) variants of payload of the Nirbhay missile are being developed. I'm sure one of them is a anti-runway version.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby abhik » 21 Jan 2013 21:02

John wrote:
vic wrote:Smerch lobby will kill Prahaar. It will be like T-90 vs Arjun!

Once again Smerch is not in the same class as Prahaar. It is Pinaka (2) not Prahaar that competes with it

On the contrary Pinaka 2 is not a competitor to the Smerch, its just an enhancement of the existing Pinaka. But the Smerch and the Prahaar will be competing with each other.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 21 Jan 2013 22:38

There is two different projects underway for Pinaka first is the range improvement to existing missile and second is new class of missiles' with range of around 100 km and will likely be the same size as Smerch.
Last edited by John on 22 Jan 2013 00:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby vic » 21 Jan 2013 22:48

Any open source about this 100km thingie

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Jan 2013 23:06

Its possible that the new 200KM missile with sub-munitions might be Prahaar-2 (speculation onlee)

Another very effective role for such a missile is in a counter-artillery role. Once you integrate this missile with Rajendra WLR & ACCS, you can get the rough coordinates of the enemy artillery systems - MBRLs, Howitzers etc. Launch a salvo of missiles into this rough target area. Even if the enemy artillery pieces are trying to scoot & shoot, the intelligent munitions will get them. If we integrate with real time UAV feeds, even better.

We can achieve artillery suppression in record time & that too from standoff distances. You get a 200KM sanitized forward edge of the battle.

Got to be inducted in the 1000s though

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 21 Jan 2013 23:19

abhik wrote:^^^
Anti-runway specific munitions are quite common, for example the Matra Durandal. Note that it is designed to be dropped from low altitudes which makes it perfect for a cruise missile.


I saw that too but didn't post it cause it isn't a CM so it won't solve the problem that tsarkar garu pointed out.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Jan 2013 07:05

the accuracy improvements in A2AT(A4) are likely to field small n-warheads against hardened C3I/cave sites while the more payload of A3/A5 will cart the biggest FBF city busting warheads. this will give us another rung on the escalatory ladder before city busting warheads come into picture with collateral damage when used on mil targets.

shourya could be used for the long range strike using conventional payload role like on enemy airbases and infra targets deep in the rear...if its funded and inducted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 22 Jan 2013 10:00

Singha wrote:the accuracy improvements in A2AT(A4) are likely to field small n-warheads against hardened C3I/cave sites while the more payload of A3/A5 will cart the biggest FBF city busting warheads. Shourya could be used for the long range strike using conventional payload role...
Well said Singha, each of these have a niche role, sometimes overlapping but still each has its place. A1, A2, A4 and A5 are all evolutionary and going up the ladder. A3 IMHO is more a TD and its role will eventually be taken over by A4. PI, PII, PIII, Dhanush, Shaurya, Nirbhay and even Prahaar fill a key niche.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 22 Jan 2013 10:46

DRDO to develop anti-radiation missile - The Hindu
A new state-of-the art, anti-radiation missile that can target enemy radars and communication facilities is being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

At present there is no such missile in India’s arsenal, while some advanced countries, including the US, Israel and Russia, have such a weapon, top DRDO sources told The Hindu here on Sunday. The government recently gave the go-ahead for the project, and the design work has already begun at one of the key DRDO laboratories here. {Hyderabad} Sources added that in any war scenario, radar and communication facilities of the enemy would be the first target.

The new air-to-surface 100-km range tactical missile picks up radiation or signals emitted by radars and communication systems, homes on to the target and destroys the network. The missile’s front-end comprises a sensor to pick up various radio frequencies. It will be a single-stage, liquid-propelled system, sources said.

The missile is expected to be ready in the next three to five years. After a series of developmental trials, it will be integrated with fighter aircraft, including Sukhoi and Light Combat Aircraft.

DRDO scientists have also started work on developing a 150-km range surface-to-air missile (SAM) as part of its plans to have SAMs of different ranges. The Akash missile, which has already been inducted into the Air Force and the Army, has an interception range of 25 km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 22 Jan 2013 10:56

From the above, regarding SAMs of different ranges,
  • The new unnamed one with 150 Kms (DRDO & ?)
  • LR-SAM 100 Kms (DRDO & IAI) Trials 2015
  • MR-SAM 70 Kms (DRDO & IAI) Trials this year
  • Akash 25 Kms (in service)
  • Maitri or SR-SAM 15 Kms (DRDO & MBDA) Not sure about the status of the project

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20317 » 22 Jan 2013 11:08

Prem Kumar wrote:Its possible that the new 200KM missile with sub-munitions might be Prahaar-2 (speculation onlee)


I thought this is the reusable hypersonic CM said to be Brahmos-2.

With Brahmos moving from high supersonic to hypersonic regimn I am expecting it to cut down on range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nash » 22 Jan 2013 11:24

that 100Km Anti-Radiation will be Prahar and 150 KM(25 Km altitude) SAM will be AAD, which i think re-comfigured to protect against CM and UAV.Both these missile perfectly met the specification.

Since we already have these missile, 3-5 years is very much enough to get into production.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby srin » 22 Jan 2013 11:53

SSridhar wrote:DRDO to develop anti-radiation missile - The Hindu
A new state-of-the art, anti-radiation missile that can target enemy radars and communication facilities is being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

At present there is no such missile in India’s arsenal, while some advanced countries, including the US, Israel and Russia, have such a weapon, top DRDO sources told The Hindu here on Sunday. The government recently gave the go-ahead for the project, and the design work has already begun at one of the key DRDO laboratories here. {Hyderabad} Sources added that in any war scenario, radar and communication facilities of the enemy would be the first target.

The new air-to-surface 100-km range tactical missile picks up radiation or signals emitted by radars and communication systems, homes on to the target and destroys the network. The missile’s front-end comprises a sensor to pick up various radio frequencies. It will be a single-stage, liquid-propelled system, sources said.

The missile is expected to be ready in the next three to five years. After a series of developmental trials, it will be integrated with fighter aircraft, including Sukhoi and Light Combat Aircraft.

DRDO scientists have also started work on developing a 150-km range surface-to-air missile (SAM) as part of its plans to have SAMs of different ranges. The Akash missile, which has already been inducted into the Air Force and the Army, has an interception range of 25 km.



Liquid-propelled ? Sounds odd. I'd actually expected an Astra derivative with a bigger warhead.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Shrinivasan » 22 Jan 2013 12:03

nash wrote:that 100Km Anti-Radiation will be Prahar and 150 KM(25 Km altitude) SAM will be AAD, which i think re-comfigured to protect against CM and UAV.Both these missile perfectly met the specification.
Good thinking on part of the DRDO... an existing missile which matches / tweaked for user's requirements and delivered on time would be sweet. DRDO has attained a level of maturity with missiles that it can mix and match capabilities with requirements at will and come up with different missiles. As long us the users support them, they will do great.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby member_20453 » 22 Jan 2013 19:29

Prahaar would fit the bill easily for the modification into a Air laucnhed Anti Rad missile, 1280Kg, 7.3m, 35 km cieling, 200kg warhead and speed around mach 2+

Weight reduction to 1180 with a 100kg HE CL-20 warhead, perhaps a bit shorter so that it can neatly fit on the LCA. If under 1200kg, LCA can carry 3 of these..interesting. I wonder if Prahaar can be modified into a SAM, ground launched anyways, launcher is ready, has a flight cieling of 35km...ideal, have a stregthened body, smaller 50kg HE CL-20 proxy warhead. However a more powerful engine perhaps is required in order to attain faster speeds, if it can hit speed of mach 4.5+ it could be the ideal missile. Love the fact that the launcher is ready. Missile is light enough too. A powerful active radar seeker, data link and control surfaces + tvc for maneuvering would allow it to become a SAM. The radar is can be ready quickly too. FCR can be an upgraded AESA Rohini..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Jan 2013 19:40

the 100km and liquid fuel indicates it is not a greensheet effort but will leverage the same solid fuel initial burnout and then liquid fuel ramjet used in brahmos, moskit and more relevantly the KH31 family of which we already use the KH31P in some unknown number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-31

probably we will leverage the proven back end propulsion module but provide our own choice of warhead , seeker , ECM and programmable features in the front end.

also this missile itself is not a solution by itself, we need either dedicated internal systems as on Growler or podded systems suitable for carriage by atleast some IAF fighters to pickup and isolate hostile emitters to find targets for this weapon.

a local soln funded might mean we are finally getting serious about the SEAD/DEAD role rather than a boutique type interest in it. the proliferation of large SAMs in cheen inventory makes this mandatory.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby nachiket » 22 Jan 2013 19:41

A new state-of-the art, anti-radiation missile that can target enemy radars and communication facilities is being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

At present there is no such missile in India’s arsenal, while some advanced countries, including the US, Israel and Russia, have such a weapon, top DRDO sources told The Hindu here on Sunday.

We didn't buy the Kh-31 for our MKI's? It would be incredibly stupid not to.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby John » 22 Jan 2013 19:43

Septimus P. wrote:Prahaar would fit the bill easily for the modification into a Air laucnhed Anti Rad missile, 1280Kg, 7.3m, 35 km cieling, 200kg warhead and speed around mach 2+



A 1.2 Ton and 7 meter long HARM missile would mean the only platform that can carry would be Flanker and perhaps mig-29k (yes rafale can carry Storm shadow but i don't think it can carry something 7 meters long). The fact that it says liquid fueled indicates IMO ramjet design perhaps mini brahmos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Zynda » 22 Jan 2013 19:53

Singha wrote:also this missile itself is not a solution by itself, we need either dedicated internal systems as on Growler or podded systems suitable for carriage by atleast some IAF fighters to pickup and isolate hostile emitters to find targets for this weapon.


Siva HADF pod was developed for cuing Kh-31 ARM on Su-30 for SEAD ops per wiki.

Apparently, Janes has confirmed that IAF's main arsenal for SEAD is Kh-31P (wiki says Kh-31A)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 22 Jan 2013 19:56

nachiket wrote:We didn't buy the Kh-31 for our MKI's? It would be incredibly stupid not to.


We have. There are pics available.


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