Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Image

Image

Bloody Nasty People: The Rise of Britain’s Far Right; Hate: My Life in the British Far Right
What would motivate British neo-Nazi skinheads to invade a public library and beat up a reading group of retired Pakistani immigrants? And what would motivate half a million British citizens to vote for extreme right-wing parties whose rhetoric fuels such behavior? Trilling traces the rise of the radical right in the United Kingdom and condemns establishment figures for not taking it more seriously. Journalists, he argues, should not stoke prejudice against asylum seekers and multicultural policies. Politicians should not denigrate immigrants, tighten borders, or curtail government spending on housing and welfare. He believes that it is the retreat of government, not its failure, that creates an opening for radicals.

But a memoir by Collins, who spent years as a neo-Nazi and is now the director of Searchlight Educational Trust, a British foundation dedicated to fighting racism and fascism at the community level, inadvertently calls into question the idea that officials in the United Kingdom should ring alarm bells about nativist radicalism. In breathless, awkward prose, he recalls spending his teen years consorting with pseudo-intellectual Holocaust deniers, profane Hitler worshipers, and violent psychopaths armed with heavy chains, hobnailed boots, and switchblades. Although the gratuitous violence is shocking, the overwhelming impression is of a bunch of cranky losers in seedy apartments and cheap pubs quarreling over nothing. Perhaps this explains why out of 100,000 local officials in the United Kingdom, only ten belong to extreme right-wing parties, and why no candidate of the extreme right has ever won office at the national level. Such parties have enjoyed success only in elections for the European Parliament, in which protest voters make up a large proportion of the few people who bother to go to the polls. Perhaps the problem, then, is not that the British have let their guard down but that commentators pay too much attention to sensational but marginal elements.
eklavya
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

Nine UK based men with muslim names alleged to have raped six girls, inc. 12y old and 14y old
Mr Lucas said that on one occasion Mohammed Karrar heated a hair pin with a lighter and branded the girl with the letter M on her buttock to show she belonged to him.

"If she had the courage to resist, he beat her. He branded her to make her his property and to ensure others knew it."

The court heard Mr Karrar would charge men between £400 and £600 to use the girl.

Another 14-year-old girl was burned with a lighter and threatened if she refused to have sex with men, the court heard.

The court has previously heard the group of men deliberately targeted vulnerable young girls with troubled upbringings which made it less likely anyone would be looking out for them.

The defendants are:

Kamar Jamil, 27, of Aldwych Road, Oxford
Akhtar Dogar, 32, of Tawney Street, Oxford; and his brother Anjum Dogar, 30, of Tawney Street, Oxford
Assad Hussain, 32, of Ashurst Way, Oxford
Mohammed Karrar, 38, of Kames Close, Oxford; and his brother Bassam Karrar, 33, of Hundred Acres Close, Oxford
Mohammed Hussain, 24, of Horspath Road, Oxford
Zeeshan Ahmed, 27, of Palmer Road, Oxford
Bilal Ahmed, 26, of Suffolk Road, Maidenhead
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21033966
Prasad
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Prasad »

pakis. there are many such rape-rings there that prey on teenaged white girls. Trapping them initially by posing as being interested in them, then getting them hooked on to drugs and then abusing them sexually. The girls end up so addicted that they even get used to lure other girls into this nightmare. Typical despicable pakis.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Philip »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... itary.html

US general says Britain risks 'special relationship' if it cuts military
Britain will be shut out of key decisions in the 'Special Relationship' with the US if it does not maintain credible military capabilities, Stanley McChrystal, America's former top commander in Afghanistan has warned.
Lisa
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lisa »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Bloody Nasty People: The Rise of Britain’s Far Right; Hate: My Life in the British Far Right
What would motivate British neo-Nazi skinheads to invade a public library and beat up a reading group of retired Pakistani immigrants? And what would motivate half a million British citizens to vote for extreme right-wing parties whose rhetoric fuels such behavior? Trilling traces the rise of the radical right in the United Kingdom and condemns establishment figures for not taking it more seriously. Journalists, he argues, should not stoke prejudice against asylum seekers and multicultural policies. Politicians should not denigrate immigrants, tighten borders, or curtail government spending on housing and welfare. He believes that it is the retreat of government, not its failure, that creates an opening for radicals.

I think that you have to put this in perspective. In the UK in 2001, 8.3% of
the population was foreign born. Add to this UK born children of immigrants
the total would comfortably exceed 10-11% of total population. Remember
this was 2001, we are in 2013.

If compared to India, this would translate into a population of not less than
120-132 million immigrants including their children. In absolute terms
imagine absorbing the population of Bangladesh in its entrety.Can you
picture an India with such a population and the associated ramifications?

Just out of curiosity, what proportion of India's population is foreign born?
Anybody know?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by prashanth »

IndraD
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by IndraD »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-21070045

thousands without power in south wales and beyond, amidst heavy snow fall bringing UK to halt

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening/ga ... -come.html

please look at pictures as well
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Lisa wrote: I think that you have to put this in perspective. In the UK in 2001, 8.3% of
the population was foreign born. Add to this UK born children of immigrants
the total would comfortably exceed 10-11% of total population. Remember
this was 2001, we are in 2013.
Okay, so "foreign born" creates "problems" - let's say, for social support+economy+governance+infrastructure. Conditional on this being the primary reasons for national level troubles on the above aspects, why should UK-born children with "foreign-born" ancestors be specially contributing to these problems over and above that of "U-born" children of "native-born" ancestors?

There should be a cutoff date, and the number of iterates of generations that still stamps one as having "foreign-born" origins. UK media has great fun over the Germans for their Nazi period 3-gen criteria for being "pure German". So can the unstated cutoff be assumed to be "2" or "1"? A large chunk of "foreign borns" or descendants of "foreign borns" can only be made out visually on the streets or elsewhere that matters for policy and the public - came more than 3 generations before.

On the other hand, going back sufficiently by date - almost all of UK population is foreign-born, or descended of "foreign-borns". The fact also remains that these population chunks have still not intermingled - that is, their genetic markers remain geographically separate. By the Y-haplotypes, at least - distinct separate "foreign-born" populations exist in contiguous geographical areas of current UK. Having originated in Germany or Spain or elsewhere, they still do not show any great sign of intermingling their "blood".
If compared to India, this would translate into a population of not less than
120-132 million immigrants including their children. In absolute terms
imagine absorbing the population of Bangladesh in its entrety.Can you
picture an India with such a population and the associated ramifications?

Just out of curiosity, what proportion of India's population is foreign born?
Anybody know?
So which one do you think has greater impact on public policy and anger of the "native borns" against "foreign borns" eating up all the milk and honey of the native land - absolute number or proportions?

The same sources you looked into [UN estimates of official "immigrants"] might also provide figures for India. In absolute numbers of official "immigrants" India exceeds UK. In proportions, it is far lower. But Indian immigration statistics estimates are problematic - with criticism of possible state/political-regime promoted underreporting.

However, impacts are typically most observed where absolute numbers - or local proportions appear to be higher [this is supported by most theoretical and experimental social identity studies]. In that sense, places like Germany, Sweden, Singapore, Switzerland should have been falling into pieces compared to UK - if proportions are concerned. Other countries like, Russia, India should be falling into pieces because of absolute numbers.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by johneeG »

Bji,
what do you think about invention of printing press and its general impact on colonialism?

There is a theory that europe was ready to make use of the 'new' 'explored' lands because of social techonolgies like double entry ledgers and printing-press apart from the military technologies. Do you agree to that?

Also, how did Indians compare to the Europeans and Muslims in terms of military techonology? How come both Muslims and Europeans got hold of canons and guns while Indians had to buy them from Europeans? Also, only europeans seem to have invented the guns while the muslims stopped with canons, is it right?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

Philip wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... itary.html

US general says Britain risks 'special relationship' if it cuts military
Britain will be shut out of key decisions in the 'Special Relationship' with the US if it does not maintain credible military capabilities, Stanley McChrystal, America's former top commander in Afghanistan has warned.
Err ... so what will change?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

Pretending to be a world power is a costly business!
The high price of detergent

Between now and 2016, Britain must decide whether to replace the four submarines which carry nuclear-tipped Trident II missiles with a like-for-like replacement. The capital cost of replacing the four existing boats, which are ending their service lives, will be £25bn. The construction programme will consume at least one-third of the Ministry of Defence’s equipment budget after 2020.

Given such costs, Britain’s nuclear deterrent will be the subject of heated arguments this year. While the government is ultimately likely to approve the full project, it must make its case in the face of a growing chorus of politicians and analysts who are considering whether the country should go for cheaper alternatives, such as submarines armed with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. Some are asking whether Britain and France should work jointly on a nuclear deterrent rather than pour money into separate, parallel programmes. A few well-known public figures question the sense of the UK having nuclear weapons at all. “I think [the UK nuclear arsenal] is completely past its sell-by date,” says Michael Portillo, defence secretary in a previous Conservative government. “It is neither independent, nor is it any kind of deterrent because we face enemies like the Taliban and al-Qaeda, who cannot be deterred by nuclear weapons. It is a tremendous waste of money and is done entirely for reasons of national prestige.”

“The British debate is being followed here [in th US]. If the UK Trident programme sucks up so much money that the British military is denuded of expeditionary capabilities that are far more likely to be used than nuclear weapons, the US military will not be happy about that,” Mr Pifer says.

In Britain, however, the pressure on defence spending appears especially acute. The number of regular soldiers in the British Army has been slashed from 102,000 in 2010 to 82,000, its lowest level since the Napoleonic wars. The Royal Navy will have no aircraft carriers or fixed-wing aircraft for the next six years at least.

The cuts could bite deeper. George Osborne, Britain’s chancellor, indicated last year that public spending cuts will go on until at least 2018. That will put new pressure on defence spending, raising more questions about how and whether the UK can continue to act as a power with global ambitions.

He [Michael Portillo] believes the notion that the UK’s deterrent is independent is a myth. “We couldn’t conceivably use our nuclear weapons without US permission. Can anyone imagine us nuking North Korea, Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan without US agreement? Of course, if there were any firing to do the USA would do it.

Despite these arguments, most experts predict that the UK will stick to a full replacement of Trident, even if that could put pressure on other defence projects. The Labour party was committed to unilateral disarmament in the early 1980s. But since the era of Tony Blair, the prime minister from 1997 to 2007, the party has resisted any calls to compromise on issues of defence. All three main political parties are committed to nuclear disarmament solely through a process of multilateral negotiation. If the US and Russia – which have 95 per cent of the world’s nuclear weapons – make further deep cuts in their arsenals, then Britain, along with other states, will continue to follow suit. Otherwise, any adjustment to Britain’s nuclear posture is likely to be limited.

As a result, even if Britain is now confronted with a decision that will define strategy for the next half-century, there are limits to how far the argument will go. “The debate is pointless because no government will change the position,” says Mr Portillo. “I reached the view after I was defence secretary. We maintain the capability partly for industrial and employment reasons, and mainly for prestige. In my view, thinking has not caught up with the fall of the Berlin Wall.”
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

I said it before and say it again - why does the Queen need Nucs and delivery tech? To bomb France? Germany? Italy? Spain? They should moth ball their Tridents and Aircraft Carriers, sell them on the cheap to India, If they are that worried that somebody is going to invade their moth-eaten country they should negotiate an umbrella from India or US. India will give it only if they stop meddling in international affairs and shut up for good.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ramana »

Queendom could pull a surprise despite all these blow cold op-eds.

Need to keep up with the Frogs.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

I didn't get the "Frogs" refrence. Got it after a "blow hot blow cold" shower.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Aditya_V »

X posting from Indian Miltary misc pics thread, in case any UK snob brings up British Aid to see how the aid was used.
From the above links, could anyone point out to UK snobs how thier Aid was used.
India bought 21 Westland 30s in 1985 after Margaret Thatcher persuaded Rajiv Gandhi, then prime minister, to ignore the advice of his aviation experts, who were against the sale. The money came out of Britain's aid budget and was given to India on condition it bought the helicopters.
The 14-seater Westland 30s proved to be highly unreliable and a commercial disaster. Soon after their arrival in India in 1987 two crashed - one in the north Indian state of Jammu, and another in Nagaland killing 10 people. They proved to be unsuited to the tropical climate, needed constant servicing and repairs, and were flown only sporadically.

In 1991 the helicopters were withdrawn from service on safety grounds. Two years later, after obtaining permission from the British government under the original 1985 "sale" agreement, Pawan Hans invited global tenders for the Westland 30s. But no one wanted to pay the £1.9m reserve price. Eventually AES Aerospace emerged as sole bidder. So far it has paid £450,000, half the sale price.
Since the helicopters' purchase price was paid for using British aid, the Indian government is obliged to return the £900,000 to the UK's department for international development.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by vishvak »

Why does the second picture has swastik painted on bald head of a Christian hate monger?

Why do these hate mongers not paint Christian symbols instead of misplaced symbolism, inspired from genocidal maniacs that Nazis were, on their bald backhead?

Has anyone seen a Hindu with Christian cross on bald backhead as inspirational excuse of symbolism for hateful propaganda? One single Hindu ever?

Why are moral keepers, within UK and including ones inside parliament, say nothing about this and give cover of silence and ignorance to these hatemongers?

Can not the Govt. of UK stop this racist misuse of Hindu swastik as an excuse for nefarious activities and make these bald people and other hateful people from UK use symbolism from their own Christian religion?

In 2013, it is high time that Hindus be a little active for own good and take route of courts to ban misuse of Hindu symbolism by few hatemongering Christians, which is in turn inspired from genocidal Christian Nazis from several decades ago.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RamaY »

I think it is time hindus raise a ruckus not to insult swastika like that sighting the religious feelings. Either secularism stops this or Hindus wake up to the real face of secularism.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by vishvak »

Who is there to make this out very clearly if excuse mongers of any religion blame Hindus for anything after these Christian hatemongers commit crimes, if not now then several years or decades later?

In the ruckus of crazy people real symbolism of Hinduism, and other faiths that follow such, should not be hindered by excuse mongers.

This is precisely why hatemongers use not each others but Hindu symbolism so that even if the actual genocides were committed by Christians it looks like Hindu symbolism gave excuses to genocidal maniacs to kill and loot.

This is not crazy times of Nazi Germany. This is 2013. There has to be some logic, some reason in UK about this after parliamentary system is in place and people are educated.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

johneeG garu,
this will perhaps go OT. There are two separate issues you raise:

regarding printing-tech, two sides
(a) printing tech had a start in India through printing of motifs and characters on cloth/linen, and possible metal, perhaps as early as 1000 BCE.
(b) even after the "invention" of printing in the west, accounts-keeping went on by hand for many centuries.

The reasons for colonial success - is a hotly debated one, I will try to summarize the various theories of these. But the debate is still open.

As for gunpowder - and weaponization of gundpowder, the current myth about Chinese, and China-CAR-Europe route bypassing poor Indians, is most likely based on a self-declared Sinophile from the "west" - Needham(?), a British scholar to boot , again. A time came in the British empire, when to acknowledge any intellectual debt to Indians would be a matter of deepest shame and perhaps equivalent to bringing down the monarchy. So this was a great period of putting pre-Islamic Indian civilization into neat little ineffective boxes, with as much humiliation that can be inflicted, as possible.

Note that at the same period, the enlightened, liberal, and whose intellectual life was completely detached from their racist or imperio-sadistic mindsets - maintained the most draconian and strictest control over what the Indians could write about themselves through the press Acts.

This may go OT - but please search out
(1) Bengal, and the "Purvis" (literally all the stretch from Bihar - Bengal to Assam) being possibly the world leaders in production of military grade saltpetre even before the advent of Muslims
(2) the same zone possibly developers of "rockets" and used in war
(3) cannon and rocket tech probably developed in the NE Bengal and Assam zone [note that these regions were never conquered by the Muslims] and found its way through Chinese-Indian Buddhist monks and pilgrims into China
(4) Indian saltpetre was crucial in helping UK to win the Napoleonic wars, and perhaps to expand their colonial empire.

Perhaps as an excuse - we could say - that the natural evolution of printing tech or cannons in India was stopped by a combination of factors, that included severe disruption to the society from failure to destroy the Islamic power centres in the Gulf, a moralistic under-current that emphasized peace==trade==prosperity==any compromises to please and preserve foreign trading opportunities == no investment in advancing military superiority over neighbours, removal of knowledge from public by classifying military knowledge as amoral and dangerous and to be concentrated in monasteries which could be destroyed at one go by invaders or stolen and used by them, removal of texts by fleeing scholars into China - and so on.

OT.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

Sshhh, don't tell anybody, but the Indus Valley Seals are actually printing blocks! However Wikipedia on Printing says that the earliest use can be dated to China from 220 AD and you wouldn't find 'India' in the article.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

I am sorry but possibly and perhaps and probably discovers no scholarship at all. Unless Indians are willing to put in the intellectual and financial resources into physical research processes, we will have to wait for westerners to rewrite India`s history for Indians. Until then it is not even speculation, it is only innuendo.

A start has been made with mathematics and calculus specifically, as also the recent findings of silk weaving technology in the Indus valley.

How many Indians are aware that cotton technology was also pioneered in the Indus valley. Indeed how many are aware that cotton contributed to the civilising of Europe. Prior to cotton clothing, Europeans wore their leather and wool garments till they rotted. No wonder the Incas would not meet with the Spaniards without their nosegays.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Unfortunately, almost all of the claims made on ancient technology being "discovered" and "invented" anywhere, is made on the cautious note of "probably" and "possibly". Any search of original research works based on which populist and media summaries are made about how things were first discovered in China or ME or Europe - should reveal this fact of "scholarship" on such issues.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

Again, it is much easier, facile even, to posit some compromised original research or systemic defects and biases therein than it is to actually dig up the sources and spend one or two years in the systematic vitiation of those findings.

India currently lacks scholarship except in applied defence technology and nuclear technology; I hope this is only due to the competing demands on limited resources. The Confucius Institutes, perhaps a bad example, can be emulated by India but more as centres of excellence in historical research.

I am not innocent of the fact that any pre-Islamic research funding by any governing body is ipso facto treated with distrust and may be costly at the electoral polls.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

Vishawak ji and RamaY ji

I don't understand your logic though. These are racists and potential criminals who are using these symbols to spread hate. Are you saying that the concerned govt.s should tell them that they should not use these symbols? You think that they would listen? Arrey bubba, these people are hate mongers and would be caught when they break the law. Otherwise, they are free to do whatever the law of the land allows - in this case freedom of speech. I don't see how this is a grand conspiracy on the part of the respective governments unless what you are saying is that they are akin to the "non-state actors" of Pakistan. Otherwise, to whom exactly are you going to make what representation?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

As an important example:
http://www.academia.edu/171007/New_Evid ... dus_Valley


NEW EVIDENCE FOR EARLY SILK IN THE INDUS
CIVILIZATION*
I. L. GOOD1
†, J. M. KENOYER2
‡ and R. H. MEADOW1

1
Peabody Museum, Harvard University, 11 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge, MA 02139 USA
2
Department of Anthropology, University of Wisconsin at Madison, 5240 W. H. Sewell Social Science Building,
1180 Observatory Dr., University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI 53706 USA
Silk is an important economic fibre, and is generally considered to have been the exclusive
cultural heritage of China. Silk weaving is evident from the Shang period c. 1600–1045 BC,
though the earliest evidence for silk textiles in ancient China may date to as much as a
millennium earlier. Recent microscopic analysis of archaeological thread fragments found
inside copper-alloy ornaments from Harappa and steatite beads from Chanhu-daro, two
important Indus sites, have yielded silk fibres, dating to c. 2450–2000 BC. This study offers
the earliest evidence in the world for any silk outside China, and is roughly
contemporaneous with the earliest Chinese evidence for silk. This important new finding
brings into question the traditional historical notion of sericulture as being an exclusively
Chinese

Of pertinance is the fact the authors are not Indians. Further there is only one Indian name in the references.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

vishvak wrote: Can not the Govt. of UK stop this racist misuse of Hindu swastik as an excuse for nefarious activities and make these bald people and other hateful people from UK use symbolism from their own Christian religion?
The preferred symbol of the far-right in Britain is the Union Jack. Check the website of the British National Party. If the UK government can't stop the far right from using the country's flag, I don't see them protecting any other symbol from misuse.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by vishvak »

If there are thieves there are still guidelines and laws for general order. The govt of UK should declare that far right Christian parties can not use Hindu symbolism at all.

It is very basic courtesy that few Christians can not riot under Hindu symbols. Secularism does not allow this automatically or even by default after nothing else works. Such things are part of common sense and everything against it can not be put in words.

This is not just about using flag of UK. These people should avoid obscuring Hindu symbolism, like painting Swastik on bald backhead. Why can't these hooligans use Christian cross to do what they are doing and see what the majority community says?

If the crazies use Christian symbols and no one else says much, it is not fault of others. The least Hindus can do is to have social movement to stop misuse of Swastik. Swastik does not mean that crazies can riot under symbols of other religions. There are ways to convey meaning and live with traditions but why misuse Swastik?

What is going on in UK? Who is looking after minority rights? This is plain ridiculous. The party is outright racist and misusing symbolism from other religions and traditions. How does a parliamentary system allows for such racist mischief makers is beyond common sense.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

The answer to your riddle is that a majority of Brit society is racist with a visible minority overtly so. My question still stands.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by vishvak »

The issue is about misuse of Swastik so it is upto British Hindus, and overall people who do not want such symbols to be misused be it any religion. So all Hindus should make a social issue out of this. The misuse is not on a firm legal ground regardless of racist Brutish society and an overt misuse does not mean that this should not be pointed out clearly.

There are many ways in which this could be stated. Misuse by hitler and his war mongrels is one. Pointing out how baseless it is, is another. There would be many more. Amongst the most important way is to state very clearly what Swastik stands for.

The misuse is already overt, what more are Hindus waiting for exactly.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

This whole stuff about banning the use of Swastika and all that is really going about it the wrong way.

What British Hindus should do is use huge banners of Swastikas in any processions through British streets and in their festivals. First make the Swastika your own! And then ridicule the Neo-Nazis that they are trying to be Hindus when the use the symbol!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by kshatriya »

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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RamaY »

RajeshA wrote:This whole stuff about banning the use of Swastika and all that is really going about it the wrong way.

What British Hindus should do is use huge banners of Swastikas in any processions through British streets and in their festivals. First make the Swastika your own! And then ridicule the Neo-Nazis that they are trying to be Hindus when the use the symbol!
:mrgreen:
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

sanjaykumar ji,
choice thrashing adjectives about supposed lack of initiative to prove Indian antiquity over tech - is perhaps also an easy way out of looking at the whole structure of how such research is and can be conducted.

The specific topic I had briefly touched on, is a hotly debated one - gunpowder and its weaponization. Before you go on chastizing others about their hemming and hawing over "claims", do look at the very "research" you have quoted. Even after "discovering" evidence of "silk" in "Indus" artefact, they can at most gather the courage to say that it merely "brings into question" about the "Chinese" origin of silk.

The reason, is because people can immediately counter by saying that - it could have been traded and imported from China. There would be speculative shouts about the supposed CAR trade connections to Mesopotamia from China - from which in turn it could have come down to "Indus". Since bronze-age mineral and metalc onnection to the AFG-Tajikistan zone has been traced to the same civilization - this again cannot be entirely ruled out.

Most of that type of research has to be speculative on both sides of the divide. Gunpowder is not a on-topic for this thread. Please do first go through the original papers that claim gunpowder and weaponization claims in China, and let me know what you find in the language and expressions.
Perhaps and possible - are the natural part of caution. Onlee "popularizers" of science-dogmas like Needham would confidently claim blanket origins theories. That is not the scientific method after all.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Craufurd, in his two volume work published from London, 1817 : "In parts of India that never were frequented either by Mohammedans or Europeans, we have met with rockets, a weapon which the natives almost universally employ in war. The rocket consists of a tube of iron, about eight or ten inches long, and above an inch in diameter. It is filled in the same manner as an ordinary sky-rocket, and fastened towards the end of a piece of bamboo, scarcely as thick as an ordinary walking cane, and about five feet long, which is pointed with iron." [quoted here as it has a tenuous Londonistan connection and is talking of weaponization of gunpowder in India away from Muslim or Euro influence].
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

That is the nature of academic debate; that is, every finding poses another problem. It is known that jade was imported from China and there is no logical reason to not question whether silk could also have been. Although it is not definitively established that Chinese silk was contemporaneous with Indus Valley product. Thus China could conceivably have obtained the technology from India.


Why does an Indian not do a mass spectrum analysis of this silk, a stochastic analysis of the protein sequence? Or look for preserved DNA to do a sequence comparison. My prediction is that they cannot be bothered.


The world does not see itself as owing India anything, Indians need to make their own claims on more solid foundations.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

sanjaykumar wrote:That is the nature of academic debate; that is, every finding poses another problem. It is known that jade was imported from China and there is no logical reason to not question whether silk could also have been. Although it is not defeinitevely established that Chinese silk was contemporaneous with Indus Valley product. Thus China could conceivably have obtained the technology from India.


Why does an Indian not do a mass spectrum analysis of this silk, a stochastic analysis of the protein sequence? Or look for preserved DNA to do a sequence comparison. My prediction is that they can not be bothered.


The world does not see itself as owing India anything, Indians need to make their own claims on solid foundations.
Has an "Indian" access to the artefact ? Yes they might not be bothered too - or not in a position to be bothered. Their gov will oppose or subtly sabotage such research if it is seen to be potentially upsetting to dominant ideologies. Or they are busy setting up their own niches in academia for which they have credibility through the formal system - often the "scientific" minds have been forced to study in disciplines that automatically disqualifies them from having any say in "historical/archeological" themes. I know this from personal experience - I could enter linguistic or sociological research because of a specific mathematical/computational background, but even then I have to be constantly aware of "boundaries" that I can only push an inch a year. Indians who are already of the relevant discipline, say biotech/chemistry/ will still not be directly "accredited" for archeological research - unless as junior partners or "tech" consultants of more legitimate "historian/archeologist leads".

Research in such teams are guided - subtly or not so subtly - by the agenda of the "historian". Again I have direct personal experience of this. Suggest something that throws up problems with the hypothesis of the "historian" lion, and you will be left out of the serengeti.

Indian professional historians are of course strictly filtered in the academic filtration process - so no chance of someone coming up who will challenge the orthodoxy or upset the apple cart of foreign Indologist-bootlicking and Indian regime political interests linked to perceptions of hurt-minority sentiments.

Are you sure you are being objective in blaming Indian academics for lacking in "initiative"? Where is the remainder of the effort of political change that would make such research feasible?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

RajeshA wrote:This whole stuff about banning the use of Swastika and all that is really going about it the wrong way.

What British Hindus should do is use huge banners of Swastikas in any processions through British streets and in their festivals. First make the Swastika your own! And then ridicule the Neo-Nazis that they are trying to be Hindus when the use the symbol!
+1000. Only problem is that at least in US there are no big Hindu processions.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by JE Menon »

Boss that is subscriber only :(
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Neela »

Yesterday, there was a news clip of harry in Afghanistan during Christmas time. Good on him.
He represents his country and is in a conflict area. Despite the obvious psy-ops, the nation is proud of his service and all its soldiers. We can learn something from this. Especially after recent events.
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