Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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GeorgeWelch
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Sagar G wrote:Not going to happen, single package delivery we want if Americans can't do it then no need to participate take your military hardware to some place else along with your unwanted speeches.
It isn't about whether America can do it, it's about whether France and India can do it (and in a somewhat timely manner).

I guess we shall see.

Manish_Sharma wrote: Happy for you, so are we :wink:
But PAK-FA and AMCA are still far enough in the future you need one more shot of last-generation planes. That being the case, hopefully you will get them while they're still relevant.

Manish_Sharma wrote:Ah just 'cause Saab are your fellow caucasians they are to be believed while non-caucasian IAF is to doubted as conspirators
You realize how easily I could reverse your statement? However, when comparing unnamed sources vs named sources, unnamed sources lose the credibility battle every time.

Also there's the tiny fact that India already has an ELTA AESA radar on the Phalcon . . .

Manish_Sharma wrote:Whenever we see a shortfall we order two extra squadrons of sukhois, 40 ordered twice. Will do it again in case of need
The problem with the MRCA deal is that it is so slow you will need to, so you're going to end up paying for both the MRCA and more MKIs, and MKIs are becoming increasingly expensive both to buy and run.
Manish_Sharma wrote:When you go to buy it separately the price is compounded plus US dirty tricks of pressurising others not to sell
It's amazing what you come up with from one fallacious report.
Manish_Sharma wrote:So you see the same AESA you are arguing against about got this oldest/heaviest jet f-18 entry in the MMRCA
And?

Is that reasoning even relevant any longer?

Just another example of the issues with making such a huge production that takes forever. By the time it is ready, it's time has already passed.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Even if you're convinced Rafale is the right choice, I still think India would be better served by scrapping the MRCA and negotiating a direct purchase which will greatly reduce costs and increase delivery speed.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

GeorgeWelch wrote:Even if you're convinced Rafale is the right choice, I still think India would be better served by scrapping the MRCA and negotiating a direct purchase which will greatly reduce costs and increase delivery speed.
Its a pisskological issue for you this MMRCA, 'cause this damned MMRCA competition proved inferiority of teens you want to see it scrapped so you americans feel good that 'see whole MMRCA was faulty, our jets are not inferior". Otherwise why this obsession with scrapping of MMRCA?

See if you can stop projecting the dishonesty and dirty games mindset of USAF, pentagon on IAF then acceptance will be easy for you.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

I think everyone is discussing based on a bias that fits each one's view of a purchase process should that match the requirements. Actually, none out in the public clearly knows what IAF wants, as RFPs or RFIs are not available public, and all that we read are just biased information.

If we focus on to requirements, and look at the requirement of establishing local industries, I doubt any supplier has specified that clear to enable a discussion that one is better than the other. There are tall claims (for example: gripen) about providing exceeding requirements, and all they have to rely on the back-to-back business arrangement with sub component manufacturing states.

In that sense, it is always nice to deal with OEMs, and get a deal! that fits the bill and requirements. Now, that is a tough task.. if we take all this and make it bigger and mother of all sale show. It would only satisfy political requirements and nothing else.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by vishvak »

The last thing any professional soldier wants during war is restricting clauses, which for no reason does not apply to pakistanis when pakistanis were firing A2A missiles, during Kargil war, at Indian fighter jets defending India and flying within India. The IAF is very clear about it. link
Tipnis, who was IAF chief during the Kargil War, pointed out that reliability of support when the chips are down outweighs any other consideration.
Especially if upgraded tech funded by India are suddenly found on the other side of the border under any legitimate excuses which American have been giving for decades to arm pakistan and ignoring nuclear proliferation for decades. It will not be incorrect to say that pakistani arms power depends and runs on shoulders of USA while shelling Indians for decades.

Never understood how pakistanis never managed to be under any restricting clauses after shelling and firing at Indian troops and civilians alike using American guns for decades. Or for that matter how Indian tech sector was under sanction regimes while American nuclear parts found their way into pakistani nuclear plants. Not to forget decades of illegitimate pakistani nuclear bazar from the pakistani nuclear industry which no one were aware of for decades.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Philip wrote:The key goal of the MMRCA deal was acquiring the AESA radar
IMO most motives such as the above are concoctions that have been ascribed post-facto to the MRCA. My reading of the situation is that the MoD/IAF floated a tender for fighter aircraft because of the falling numbers/non delivery from the LCA program. The IAF then tested the the competitors and passed the two most technically advanced fighters overall. Bureaucratic and by the book.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by AmitG »

I am a bit surprised, but pardon my ignorance. We have been gung-ho about TOT, but our indigenous plane LCA is years behind schedule. So where has this TOT helped, except that in case of war, we can manufacture the planes ourselves...and by when would HAL deliver...after the war is over? We have not used TOT to develop our own planes.

Rafale is an extremely capable aircraft and in a way, I am happy that we are going to get the aircraft which can be the mainstay of the airforce for a longer period. But how long will it take to operationalize, train and ensure that the Rafale is a game changer in case of war with any of our neighbors. HAL will take years to get to a production level of 20 a/c per year and it still has to deliver close to 100 Su-30MKI.

Someone said that our leadership does not envisage war anytime in the next 2-3 years, and I pray to god that there is no war...but then we never knew the Pakistani North Light Infantry was already inside our border till they had actually occupied the Kargil heights and we lost close to 700 men to get that territory back. So there is no certainty that war will not happen.

And about the F-16 being "phat phat", I dont know what our government means when it sends a signal to the US that arming Pakistanis with F-16 is not favorable to India. If F-16 are phat phat, then why are we worried. If that is the case then we should thank US that they are arming Pakistanis with junk, which our MMRCA process rejected!

And we should not forget that the same F-18 engine will be the powerplant for our LCA Mk2!!!
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_22872 »

If F-16 are phat phat, then why are we worried.
Even though F-16 are old, and dont meet our requirements, they still can help TSP drop nukes on us, they still are potent machines. We should worry if anything given to TSP enables them in their war making capabilities, so even screw driver if exported them and if that is used in tightening screws to their F-16 it should worry us.
Last edited by member_22872 on 21 Jan 2013 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
pentaiah
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by pentaiah »

Its been good 12 years since first LCA flight happened
and the clock is ticking....
AmitG
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by AmitG »

venug wrote:
If F-16 are phat phat, then why are we worried.
Even though F-16 are old, and dont meet our requirements, they still can help TSP drop nukes on us, they still are potent machines. We should worry if anything given to TSP enables them in their war making capabilities, so even screw driver if exported them and if that is used in tightening screws to their F-16 it should worry us.
Then I guess even if we buy F-22 or maybe a sixth gen fighter (yet to be developed), we will be worried. We will never be able to fight a war against Pakistan or China because someone sold them a screw driver.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

GeorgeWelch wrote: It isn't about whether America can do it, it's about whether France and India can do it (and in a somewhat timely manner).

I guess we shall see.

Whether we Bharat-France can do or not shouldn't be american concern. In fact US concern is clear that they are committed to 'not let Bharat be strong'. As it is clear with US decision in javelin missile tender to limit the launchers numbers for Indian Army? Reason US gave was it would give Indian Army 'unfair advantage' over porki army.

Now you see how much of control freaks and well-wishers americans are.

Who knows they might want to restrict the number of missiles and ammo we can hang on jets.
:rotfl:


But PAK-FA and AMCA are still far enough in the future you need one more shot of last-generation planes. That being the case, hopefully you will get them while they're still relevant.

You see its OK to be late a little then having a lemon like f-22 on hand, about which even now after so many years of use pilots are choking to death due to oxygen cut. And 300 billion dollar F-35 isn't anywhere near delivering the promises it made. What do you mean by above underlined 'they're still relevant', till how long f-35 - 22 will be relevant?

You realize how easily I could reverse your statement? However, when comparing unnamed sources vs named sources, unnamed sources lose the credibility battle every time.
Also there's the tiny fact that India already has an ELTA AESA radar on the Phalcon . . .
Yes yes reverse - antireverse you'll do everything to just sell the 60s design to IAF.
Manish_Sharma wrote:Whenever we see a shortfall we order two extra squadrons of sukhois, 40 ordered twice. Will do it again in case of need
The problem with the MRCA deal is that it is so slow you will need to, so you're going to end up paying for both the MRCA and more MKIs, and MKIs are becoming increasingly expensive both to buy and run.
I think we can easily afford more MKIs, if we can pay 5 billion for C-17s. Which by the way US hating IAF bought without any problem. :P

It's amazing what you come up with from one fallacious report.
Yup only your accusations at IAF are backed up by solid reports
:roll:

And?

Is that reasoning even relevant any longer?

Just another example of the issues with making such a huge production that takes forever. By the time it is ready, it's time has already passed.

Reasoning? Sanity? Its all a joke. I mean MMRCA has been decided, teens mig35 grippen etc. rejected as technically inferior, ef2k and rafale shortlisted, finally ef2k loses due to L1, final phase of Rafale negotiations and we are discussing scrapping MRCA and buying teens :shock:
And you want reasoning?

If reason was to prevail, you'd have understood that IAF has plan of their own, they have the best overview of the picture and for them MMRCA - Rafale fits period.

But blindly you want to insert old SH , why because it american and you are american. And you want Reason?
:roll:

Before the rejection of SH, you were here did you ever say 'scrape the MRCA and buy a jet directly' No I don't think so. If SH had made it you'd have been praising MRCA, its only the defeat of teens you can't digest.
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 21 Jan 2013 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
abhik
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by abhik »

PratikDas wrote:Besides, after all this time and despite the wishes of many here, we haven't been able to shove the LCA down the IAF's throat, not in the numbers we would've liked, so perhaps the salesmen should take a hint?
Thats been the greatest failure of our politicians with respect to indigenous capability. Governments world over shove stuff down their militaries throat when it is in national interest, but the only time our's do the same is when there is a kick-back involved.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_22872 »

Then I guess even if we buy F-22 or maybe a sixth gen fighter (yet to be developed), we will be worried. We will never be able to fight a war against Pakistan or China because someone sold them a screw driver.
No, Us protesting and if possible making sure that weapons and planes are not gifted to TSP doesn't mean we are worried and that should send shivers down our spine. All I am saying is anything that TSP uses on us will only be additional burden and we end up allocating more resources to counter that. So we can't brush aside F-16s because they are some phat-phat, even phat-phats can be effectively used and should be deemed as potent weapons. The aim should be to cripple TSP and to take away the bite in what ever way we can.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Lot of confusion. And as a result we go in circles - posting the same arguments ever so often.

TOT:
1) No nation or vendor will part with everything or anything. Cannot happen
2) Whatever they do part with:
a) Not everything India will be able to absorb
b) What India can absorb does not mean that the absorb-able technologies will fit into Indian research efforts. They just may not fill any blanks in Indian research efforts
c) Even if they do fill research efforts it could take years (5-10?) to incorporate what is given via ToT
3) Even if latest techs are given, an Indian product could have marched ahead and what is given could be too late to provide assistance at that point in time. Timing of ToT is important. (So, for the AMCA any latest and greatest in FBW would be of no use since the AMCA has moved on to FBL.)

GE could give ToT for 104 and it would be of no use.

On US providing techs to Pakis:
1) Every nation acts in her best interest
2) What is provided is more of a nuisance - something India can do without, but has to factor it in because now it is there
3) As it has happened in Northern Africa, where jihadis has acquired latest and greatest (France claims they are facing it in Mali), the US should face some of what they gave to PakiLand. Which is why the US wants to retain some troops in the Land of Strategic Depth (LSD). In short the US will remain more sleepless than India when it comes to such daaned techs
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

pentaiah wrote:Its been good 12 years since first LCA flight happened
and the clock is ticking....
It is perpetual.
poised to be deployed.
4 legged with AESA
Rest is temporal.
GeorgeWelch
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Manish_Sharma wrote:Its a pisskological issue for you this MMRCA, 'cause this damned MMRCA competition proved inferiority of teens you want to see it scrapped so you americans feel good that 'see whole MMRCA was faulty, our jets are not inferior". Otherwise why this obsession with scrapping of MMRCA?
Because it's the only way I see of building up the IAF's strength quickly.

I really do want a strong India and it's why India's defense interests me so.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Sagar G »

GeorgeWelch wrote:It isn't about whether America can do it, it's about whether France and India can do it (and in a somewhat timely manner).

I guess we shall see.
Yeah we will see eventually what happens so stop giving speeches before the result comes out.
GeorgeWelch wrote:Because it's the only way I see of building up the IAF's strength quickly.

I really do want a strong India and it's why India's defense interests me so.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Damn you are funny
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Gurneesh »

PratikDas wrote:Besides, after all this time and despite the wishes of many here, we haven't been able to shove the LCA down the IAF's throat, not in the numbers we would've liked, so perhaps the salesmen should take a hint?
IMHO you are plainly wrong here.

IAF has already ordered 40 Mk1 LCA's. That is almost on par with the order for M2000's and Mig 29's. It is not IAF's fault that HAL has not been able to make even a single SP aircraft to date. I read somewhere that this year four new LCA's will be delivered to IAF. So what is the point of ordering 100 Mk1's if they can not be made fast enough.

No one can predict if IAF would have increased the order if the present order of 40 aircraft had been completed well before the Mk2 induction. With experience of LCA operation and with the current delay in MMRCA maybe they would have.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by PratikDas »

No need to be humble with me as my post count doesn't reflect any military acumen.

There have been plenty of discussions regarding the size of the LCA order and the proportional incentive in setting up manufacturing lines as opposed to workshops and I didn't lead those discussions.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Manish_Sharma »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Because it's the only way I see of building up the IAF's strength quickly.

I really do want a strong India and it's why India's defense interests me so.
As an individual I trust you may want a strong Bharatvarsh, but your country US doesn't want that. See Javelin missile deal was almost done, till US parliament decided to limit the number of launchers for Indian Army as they thought IA will become too powerful against porki army.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Lalmohan »

not to worry, sweden, france, israel and russia make pretty good man portable guided missiles...
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by vishvak »

GeorgeWelch wrote: ..
Because it's the only way I see of building up the IAF's strength quickly.

I really do want a strong India and it's why India's defense interests me so.
Just as pakistan sees their own strength built up against India regardless of world wide nuclear proliferation, missile smuggling, international terror networks, numerous Jehadi feeder camps, multiple terror attacks and bomb blasts, taliban support in Afghanistan and so on and so on. This all has been going on for decades and not is not any recent phenomena.

What matters for USA is USA interests for which USA will ignore all the above too regardless of consequences on Indians.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:
Because it's the only way I see of building up the IAF's strength quickly.

I really do want a strong India and it's why India's defense interests me so.
As an individual I trust you may want a strong Bharatvarsh, but your country US doesn't want that. See Javelin missile deal was almost done, till US parliament decided to limit the number of launchers for Indian Army as they thought IA will become too powerful against porki army.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 465829.xml
Until Panetta’s visit to India on June 5, there were fears that the Indian army’s plan to equip its 350-odd infantry battalions with thousands of Javelin missiles was going to hit a wall, amid reports that the U.S. State Department has slashed India’s request for the missiles and planned to offer only a limited quantity.

Discounting such speculation, Panetta says, “I don’t know where the hell that story came from . . . it’s not true. We haven’t cut the sale in half.

“I want to assure you that we’re committed to a full sale of the Javelin to India,” he says. “And we are working very closely with India not only on that sale, but on other sales as well to try to improve their capabilities.”
Not to mention the US has sold the very advanced P-8 and is selling the AH-64 and has repeatedly tried to sell the F-35, that just simply does not seem to be the case.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23651 »

FWIW.. What I had read somewhere in some article, problem was USA was not willing to give ToT for licensed production of Javelin in India...
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by GeorgeWelch »

AnantS wrote:FWIW.. What I had read somewhere in some article, problem was USA was not willing to give ToT for licensed production of Javelin in India...
Correct, the issue was with ToT and had nothing to do with 'keeping India weak' or any such nonsense.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ag-missile
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_23651 »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
AnantS wrote:FWIW.. What I had read somewhere in some article, problem was USA was not willing to give ToT for licensed production of Javelin in India...
Correct, the issue was with ToT and had nothing to do with 'keeping India weak' or any such nonsense.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ag-missile
Which George is a problem from Army POV. They would not like to rely on whim and fancy of USA(or any nation) for creating reserves.

US Govt continued to support Pakistan financially/militarily, even when it knew it was Pakistan who was killing their soldiers in Afghanistan, could do nothing but keep quiet, pretend to assuage US citizens rage by killing famous AQ no 3 every week. Heck, Pakistan even sheltered Osama, but US could not even properly point a finger at Paki govt. This tells us the citizens of India, US Govt will go to any extent to prop up Pakistan, even at peril of its own soldiers. Why the hell would US govt even care about India getting strong, which is supposedly so anti Pakistan to them?(IN this light, Please see a clause which GE specially wanted to put before selling GE 414 to India, that India will have to pay liabilities if Tejas with F 414 was used against Pakistan.) Heck few years back US Govt was ready to nuke India, for sake of Pakistan. How Headley saga was handled, tells us ties run deep between Pakistan and US Govt, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Some of US citizens I interacted with, are equally frustrated with Pakistan, but that realization has yet to come to US Govt.

Why this helplessness(or is it helplessness or something else!?) of USA in front of Pakistan just puzzles and worries me as an Indian...
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

What can George Welch do about it? I think he is a victim too (if he was ever served the US forces). Else, I am sure he will have no answers. US SD has bad policies, and it will bite them in the rear always.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Brando »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:why this obsession with scrapping of MMRCA?
Because it's the only way I see of building up the IAF's strength quickly.
This assumes that:
a) American aircraft are "better".
b) France won't be able to produce Rafales as quickly as the Boeing can produce SH.
c) India has some pressing need to quickly boost the strength of its Air Force.

All three assertions are unsubstantiated.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

US lawmakers have a nasty habit of going back on anything implied or even enacting laws that affect past contracts to "punish" foreign institutions not seen as toeing the US line.

for FMS purchases like M777, C17, P8I, chinook it is manageable but for MRCA type deals involving significant transfer of manufacturing tech (which is NEVER a US strong point) it is risky. come to think of it, where outside the US has any F-16/F-15/F-18 been assembled at all...I cannot think of anywhere a local assembly line was setup even for bulk users like KSA, israel, soko, japan, pakistan, egypt, turkey, canada ...
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Philip »

The one problem with SH supporters is that in truth,the F-18SH is at a "dead end".Unlike the F-15 Super Eagle,there is no future SH+.That future is the JSF,of which thousands have been ordered and customers getting impatient with the massive delays and cost overruns.This is why allies like Oz have opted only as an interim solution a few extra SHs which they already operate.Japan,Korea,and the US's EU allies ,all want the JSF,in the avatar (2nd or 3rd class) depending upon how much they've shelled out for the development.Even the UK will only get the 2nd class version,no nation other than the US will get the "full monty",the tech is just too sensitive to be passed on,and the Chinese are just salivating to steal; the secrets.

The pity is that the Gripen would've been an excellent cost-effective choice,to replace the MIG-21s and to deal with the Paki threat,with a larger aircraft required for the Chinese sector,but acquiring it would've killed off the LCA,being laboured with for national pride.Aero-India is going to see the 2000th flight test of the LCA,but with only two aircraft flying.We are also told that another 4 production aircraft will be delivered this year.Great production figures for MK-1! No wonder the need of the hour is extra Rafales.

PS:Here's Op-Ed comment from the Pioneer newspaper and Abhijit Iyer-Mitra on the subject.

PPS:His views do not reflect that of the poster which may differ wholly or partially (Ha! Ha!).
At sea over our defence needs


Author: Abhijit Iyer-Mitra

New Delhi has recently made some questionable decisions over the procurement of equipment for our Armed Forces. Either our civil bureaucracy has blundered or the men in uniform have unduly influenced the choices made

In the last fortnight, two major Air Force procurements have been announced. The first is the procurement of the Airbus A330- based aerial refuelling tanker and the second has been the expansion of the Rafale purchase by a full 50 per cent. Strangely enough, the past two weeks also saw a significant slashing in the defence budget outlay and a call for streamlining acquisition and belt tightening.

Now here’s the thing — we are yet to sign a piece of paper with Dassault (the Rafale’s manufacturer) and yet Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne visits the production plant in Marignac. Moreover, Union Minister for External Affairs Salman Khurshid was reportedly busy negotiating an additional 63 airframes on top of the 126 that are due. As far as the Rafale goes, we still don’t know what it is going to cost us. The Union Ministry of Finance might have okayed a 80 million-euro a pop plane, but we should wait to see how the Ministry reacts when the true price is revealed in the final contract. But protocol and cost seem no consideration for either the Air Force or the External Affairs Ministry, which begs the question: What exactly is going on? Both for a serving chief to go around endorsing a foreign private sector product and for the Foreign Minister to be negotiating the purchase of additional white elephants when the base price is as yet unknown should have raised a significant stink at several levels. And yet all we have had so far is silence.

The second big announcement was the purchase of the A330 Tanker. The bidding process was strange as it involved just two of the four available planes in the market. This in itself made a mockery of the Finance Ministry’s rejection of the 2010 selection of the A330 by the IAF on grounds of “the competitiveness of the bids and the reasonableness of the price”. Yet again the exact same two planes, the Il-78 and the A330, were pre-selected, and yet again the Russians blatantly overpriced the Il-78 at about four to six times its actual cost. Now, anyone who knows planes can tell you straight up with any need for competition or bidding that Russian engines are gas guzzlers and Russian supply chains are abysmal. But this has to be balanced with duplicated training costs and the cost of maintaining two separate fleets of planes, with their accompanying logistics trains. Yet, this does not seem to have been done. Moreover, the two versus four engine debate was settled decisively in favour of the two engines a full 10 years back when the A330 outsold its four-engined cousin, the A340, which was also trumped by its Boeing rival, the 777. In short, comparing the Il-78 which is fundamentally a transport plane, to the A330 which is a commercial airliner, is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. The apple to apple comparison would have involved getting the two other major players — Boeing with its (significantly cheaper) 767 offering and Israel Aircraft Industries which retrofits any second-hand commercial airliner to become a tanker and is reportedly the cheapest in the market. Fundamentally a commercial airliner will carry more fuel, further out, much faster and will have commercially competitive life cycle costs and it doesn’t exact require a multi-crore competition (all tax payer rupees of course) to figure this out.

So then, why exactly were the two only ‘real’ competitors to the A330 excluded in favour of an overpriced and unsuited plane? Second, if the Finance Ministry had raised precisely such objections in its 2010 rejection, why was the exact same contest with the exact same competitors allowed to go ahead? Third, if the Finance Ministry rejected the plane in 2010 on grounds of inappropriate competition and cost, will it have the gumption to do so again, given that every one of its recommendations has been tossed out?

We now have a very serious situation where the Air Force is either deliberately insubordinate, circumventing checks and balances on the advice of the civilian hierarchy, or it is completely clueless on procurements, finances and the extant market. True great airmen cannot be expected to be procedural experts to be brilliant procurers, or expected to be financial whizzes to get the nuance of finance. But to ignore what’s available on the market, both to purchase and to counter, is a very serious operational and strategic lacuna.

What this means is that we either have a dangerously out of control Air Force that scorns civilian authority or one that is dangerously out of touch with reality. The third option is one of financial malfeasance. Whatever it is none of these three options can be any source of comfort and if politicians need any excuses to justify their exclusion of the military from any and all decision making — including and especially defence — one need look no further than the Air Force and its current procurement.

Unlike the Rafale, which was quite possibly the lowest performing plane in the entire Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contest, the A330 is a brilliant plane. Yes, it can carry more fuel, much further out than the current serving planes. Yes its life-cycle costs are quite possibly the best and yes it is by far one of the most fuel efficient planes flying today. In short there is no denying that it is ‘the best’. But then, there is this strange analogy with the navy’s procurement of the Aircraft Carrier, The Gorshkov, now renamed the Vikramaditya.

Admiral Gorshkov of the Soviet Navy, after whom it was named, had said, “The best is the worst enemy of the good enough”. In his relentless pursuit of ‘the best’, he ignored economics, built carrier after carrier, submarine after nuclear submarine, and literally bankrupted the Soviet Union. Gorshkov, as it turned out, was more fatal to the USSR than to Ronald Reagan, the Pope and Nato put together. Isn’t it curious that our Armed Forces, in addition to procuring Gorshkov, also seem to have imbibed the Gorshkovian myopia. Let’s just hope we fare better than the USSR.
NRao
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

We seem to be repeating all our arguments again.
That future is the JSF,
USN MYP-III (2010-2014) says "Hello". F-18 is alive and kicking. And healthy. Well into the future. If nothing else the F-18G is just coming on-line. Not saying the 18 should replace the Rafale. But to say it is a dead-end is rather naive. But that is better than suggesting the 31.
I cannot think of anywhere a local assembly line was setup even for bulk users like..............
Did anyone of them ask for one? Like India has - per RFP? Dunno, so asking.
This assumes that ................
He was saying it is a good way to build strength quickly. (Not that I agree)

I am very disappointed with the French, from recent behavior. But that is France for you. They will be willing to sell their mother ............................. for a price.

I think India should pay up and pass that cost to someone else. Indian politicians?
SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

Of course France sold Mirages to pakis? There is no guarantee they would not do so.

One has to note however, the lessons learned from that is transformed to Su30 MKI. Even if pakis get a sukhoi, it can never be MKI. Many of the components are Indian made.

So, that is what we want in Rafale too, and that is what we would like from SH too.

Now, tell me what parts can they support us at API and spec level to be interfaced with? This might go so low even to control logic.

The question goes to both USA and France.
Vipul
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Vipul »

The Rafale deal and why it makes China nervous.

The People's Daily, the Chinese Communist newspaper, says the sale of the Rafale fighter plane 'encourages, excites and spurs India's appetite and ambition to become a great military power while intensifying its aggressive and expansionist tendencies, which poses a serious threat to peace and stability in Asia.'

Does India have a choice, considering the People's Liberation Army's frantic speed of development, wonders Claude Arpi.

There were six in contention; four were dropped, and one became the Chosen One: The Rafale. In French, 'Rafale' poetically means a 'sudden gust of wind.'

It was one of the six fighter aircraft in competition for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, MMRCA, when the Indian Air Force wanted to acquire 126 polyvalent fighter planes.In April 2011, the IAF shortlisted two birds -- the Rafale produced by Dassault Aviation and the Eurofighter (known in Europe as 'Typhoon') from EADS, the European consortium.

It was a big deal worth $12 billion. You can imagine the stakes, especially for Dassault which a few months earlier, was unsuccessful in exporting its flagship plane to Brazil [ Images ] and the Emirates.Finally on January 31, 2012, the IAF announced that the Rafale was the chosen one.

The 'deal of the century' was that 18 Rafales would be supplied in fly-away condition by Dassault to the IAF by 2015 (or three years after the signature of the contract) and the remaining 108 pieces would be manufactured in India under a transfer of technology agreement.The concurrent company did not let go easily and a lot of lobbying started. The British prime minister wanted Delhi to explain the reasons of favouring the French. 'The Typhoon is a superb aircraft, far better than the Rafale,' David Cameron said, adding: 'Of course, I will do everything I can --- as I have already -- to encourage the Indians to look at the Typhoon, because I think it is such a good aircraft.'

Interestingly, the Chinese were also unhappy with the selection of the Rafale by the IAF, but for other reasons.

An article published in The People's Daily (French edition only) argued that India and France were supposed to be non-violent countries, how could they ink such a deal? The Chinese Communist Party newspaper affirmed: 'During the twentieth century in France there was a great writer called Romain Roland (1866-1944), the Nobel Laureate for Literature, who was strongly opposed to war. In India, there has been an illustrious politician named Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi [ Images ] (1869-1948) who was a pacifist leader, known worldwide for his fights against violence.'

'At present, their homelands are engaged in a sinister and repulsive arms race, which shakes and profoundly changes the international scene. If by chance these two great and illustrious men were still alive, what would they feel about this selfish and pernicious transaction and what opinion would they give in this matter?'

Is it not amusing that the Chinese Communist Party's mouthpiece today quotes Gandhi in connection with the Rafale deal? The People's Daily article also says the sale of the Rafale 'encourages, excites and spurs India's appetite and ambition to become a great military power while intensifying its aggressive and expansionist tendencies, which poses a serious threat to peace and stability in Asia.'

Well, does India have a choice, considering the frantic speed of development of the PLA (People's Liberation Army), PLAAF (Chinese Air Force) and PLAN (Navy)?

A few months later, an Indian MP alleged that there had been 'manipulation in the evaluation process'.This eventually delayed the process as an independent investigation had to be conducted; it finally concluded that the evaluation was conducted according to the RFP (Request for Proposal) terms and defence procurement procedures. The intricate negotiations thus lost several months.

Once the hurdle created by the MP was removed, it was reported that in September, while in Bangalore, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne stated that the process continued: 'The negotiations are absolutely on. We hope that at least this financial year, we should be able to finish the negotiations and finalise the deal... It is a very complex project, as we are discussing various areas like transfer of technology, the offset clause, what Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd will do and the cost as well.'

Dassault had some doubts about HAL's capacity to produce 108 aircraft; probably with reason, looking at the fate of the Tejas project which has taken more than 30 years to take off.On November 6, Rakesh Sood, the Indian ambassador in France, told the Indian Journalists Association at India House in London [ Images ] that the contract would soon be concluded. 'The Rafale deal is in the final stages and hopefully, it should be concluded in the next 3 to 4 months.'The negotiation, Sood added, was a hugely complex exercise. 'Along with that a pretty stringent clause has been put for transfer of technology, (there is an) offset clause, and Dassault Aviation has accepted them.'

At that time, it was probably thought that the signature of the deal could be synchronised with French President Francois Hollande's visit to India. Though Sood had certainly not read the French edition of The People's Daily, he spoke of France's 'long interest in Indian civilisation', adding 'recently a (French) lady had produced a nine volume Ramayana [ Images ] in French... Indian music, yoga and films are quite popular in France.'

Sood's conclusions about the civilisational closeness between India and France were not similar to Beijing's: India needed the Rafales. But it was not considering the cash crunch. The Indian economy was not doing as well as Montek Singh Ahluwalia, deputy chairman of India's Planning Commission, had announced, and the fiscal deficit had to be cut, Finance Minister P Chidambaram said.

Last May, Defence Minister A K Antony told Parliament that his ministry would seek a hike in the Rs 193,408 crore (Rs 193 trillion) defence outlay of the 2012-2013 budget as only a budget increase could take care of the threat of the China-Pakistan military nexus. Antony spoke of 'new ground realities' and the 'changing security scenario'.

But with the changing scenario, the Indian defence ministry announced it had to prioritise its expenditure for the remaining months of the financial year. The ministry decided to focus on purchases that would impact on the armed forces' operational preparedness.For example, the ministry planned to speed up infrastructure development in Arunachal Pradesh, buy ammunition to end shortages and acquire high-value assets, from aircraft to warships.

In December, the finance ministry announced that the armed forces's modernisation budget would be slashed by around Rs 10,000 crore (Rs 100 billion) in the forthcoming Budget.The Rafale deal would have to wait for the next financial year, along with the artillery guns modernisation programme (Rs 20,000 crore/Rs 200 billion), and the creation of a new mountain corps to counter China (Rs 65,000 crore/Rs 650 billion).

In the plan expenditure, the government has already allotted Rs 55,000 crore (Rs 550 billion) for the MMRCA deal. But this was five years ago and cost escalations are bound to have crept in, which might prove to be a serious problem.

The Times of India commented: 'The move will lead to a major slowdown in the ongoing acquisition projects. It also makes it clear that the already much delayed $20 billion MMRCA project to acquire 126 fighters will not be inked anytime before March 31.' Though the IAF had been promised an additional Rs 10,000 crore to cater for the first installment of Rafales, defence expert, Major General Mrinal Suman (retd) told The New Indian Express that the budgetary cuts would impact 'all acquisitions in the pipeline, as they become easy targets.'

It is in these circumstances that a new development occurred -- Foreign Minister Salman Khurshid visited Paris last week. While many had doubts about the deal, Agence France Press reported that India could buy up to 189 Rafales instead of the 126.Apparently, Khurshid raised the possibility of an additional 63 jets being added to the shopping list. A source told AFP: 'There is an option for procurement of an additional 63 aircraft subsequently for which a separate contract would need to be signed.'

The deal would then mean a staggering $18 billion contract, which would be a great boon for the French defence industry, but costly for India though Indian suppliers could secure work equivalent to 50 per cent of the total value with the clause currently under negotiations.Khurshid seemed confident during his visit to Paris. 'We know good French wine takes time to mature and so do good contracts. The contract details are being worked out. A decision has already been taken, just wait a little for the cork to pop and you'll have some good wine to taste.'

His counterpart Laurent Fabius said, 'The final decision belongs to the Indian government in its sovereignty. But from what I am told by my colleague minister of India things are progressing well, and I can confirm the full support of the French government.'Another issue which might slightly delay the deal is that the IAF requires two-seater jets and not the one-seater model presently produced by Dassault, but this should be solved in due time.

The People's Daily had said, 'The delirious and bustling feeling of excitement from the French side resembles the behavior of Fanjin, which had a fit of madness upon learning that he was successful in the three-year provincial tests (under the Ming and Qing dynasties).' It is not exactly the attitude of the French (and the Indian) authorities who are progressing slowly, but surely towards an agreement, which is very important for both countries.

One can however understand that the Chinese are nervous.

Major General Luo Yuan, a well-known Chinese expert on military issues, recently quoted the ancient Art of War: 'The best policy in war is to thwart the enemy's strategy; the second best is to disrupt his alliances through diplomatic means; the third best is to attack his army in the field; the worst policy of all is to attack walled cities,' his conclusion was that to thwart the enemy's strategy, deterrence is the key.

It is valid for India too; too much delay in the 'deal' won't be good.
SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

:rotfl:
member_20292
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20292 »

Manish_Sharma wrote: That report was denied by Saab
:rotfl: Ah just 'cause Saab are your fellow caucasians they are to be believed while non-caucasian IAF is to doubted as conspirators.

Thats a RACIST remark Manish Sharma. Not kosher at all.
member_20292
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20292 »

^^ that french/ rediff article is written by some class 10 th ICSE student, I presume. Good job baccha, if you're reading this.
GeorgeWelch
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Singha wrote: come to think of it, where outside the US has any F-16/F-15/F-18 been assembled at all...I cannot think of anywhere a local assembly line was setup even for bulk users like KSA, israel, soko, japan, pakistan, egypt, turkey, canada ...
Funny you should mention that, Turkey just wrapped up their production of the F-16

http://www.defencetalk.com/last-advance ... rce-46045/
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Brando wrote:
This assumes that:
a) American aircraft are "better".
b) France won't be able to produce Rafales as quickly as the Boeing can produce SH.
c) India has some pressing need to quickly boost the strength of its Air Force.

All three assertions are unsubstantiated.
a) It assumes American aircraft are cheaper, thereby enabling more of them to be bought to help fill numbers. (true)
b) Clearly true. You can't flip a switch and triple production rate. Supply chain management is tremendously complex.
c) If not true, why bother with the MRCA in the first place?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20292 »

^^^^

GWelch. The IAF is more Boyd/ Sprey in their outlook than the DoD/Pentagon. They prefer fast, agile, maneuvrable aircraft to electronic weapons platforms. The Rafale has a good balance of both. Hence it was the IAF's choice.

Think of the general opposition to the JSF program from some angles. You can put the IAF in the same group of people that oppose the JSF; which opposes the all in one nature of the JSF (and extrapolating, the F 18 SH) without the flight characteristics that are needed in a dogfighter.

Another, the IAF / MoD in India does not think in the same way as the DOD/ Pentagon. They frequently like to buy the best off the shelf with the best brochure (and proven) specs. Thinking is not "global-industrial-military-complex" style. Hence they will not procure in the fashion of "best program/mil industrial complex to tap into" but more brochure like. Call it lack of strategic thinking, or call is keeping ones feet firmly on the ground.
rohitvats
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by rohitvats »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Not really, that is the purpose of the civilian government, to provide oversight and keep the overarching strategic goals in mind.

Please, take this sanctimonious BS somewhere else. You would have us believe that somehow GOI and IAF are two separate entities - while the fact of the matter is that WRT MMRCA deal, GOI made is absolutely clear that technical considerations were paramount. Which means, IAF decision to buy a particular plane based on technical merits is the final word on the subject.If the GOI had felt that in terms of money, T1 and T2 are prohibitively expensive, they could have asked IAF to reconsider.

The fact that it has not happened and GOI PNC is sitting across the table with French discussing the details of the agreement, means that GOI and IAF are on the same place.

So, please fly this kite someplace else.


It wouldn't be the first time and it surely wouldn't be the last time a government has had to reel in a military that got too focused on gee-whiz weapons that it lost sight of the big picture.

Again - take this BS elsewhere. You have no right to pass such disparaging comments about the IAF. GOI and IAF are on the same plane (pun intended!) and if the Americans find that hard to digest, too bad.You always have tin-pot dictators around the world to sell your wares to....

<SNIP>
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