Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2013 21:48

great job. The orange cap being separated right after booster ignition is the ballistic or nose cap to protect the payload through the launch tube closure phase. The booster is dumb with no TVC. The guidance takes over after booster separation around 15 sec or 20km altitude.

The fact that the booster is dumb means they are very confident of it igniting and no fear of fallback.

Did they say its at 50m depth?

The only difference with sub launch is the cross flow due to ship movement.

From the number of boats (1+3 building) the IN arsenal will be 12*4 +shore reserve of another ship set. Ie 60 missiles with that many payloads.

Truly happy republic day!

-----------
Firstpost is new to this reporting. He dropped a "1". There is no K5 vehicle.

Only K15 and K4

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 27 Jan 2013 21:56

Shaurya is land based. Also Columbia missed a big center table sized section of tile during take off. Which is a big deal. Even if it had remained intact on take off, I would bet, it would have been fatal during landing, had it not been detected. And as a matter of fact, it was detected only in investigations with no indication of any sort of examination of the shuttle skin in space.

If I understand it correct, then the falling off of ceramic tiles from the Shuttle during landing is fairly common, a headache but untimately managed by druration of flight, angle of descent and just plain luck.

The shroud on shaurya is a valid question. One possiblity that I see is that they are testing not the Shaurya but the K-15 from land itself. Other thing is we need Arun_S here. Still another is that they want to protect the manuvering mechnism for BGRV, which can be expected just below the heat shield.

Also it seems it is Pyrobolt method. Video at 0:13-0:14 shows a somewhat bigger blowing out then a 'low probability of shock and fragmentation' that a diaphragm method enables.

Added later : sorry that was the Challenger. What was it with Collumbia?

or was it the O-ring

phully conphuged

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 27 Jan 2013 22:03

k prasad wrote:...
With all due respect, could you please explain how a fuse can help guide a shell to a certain point? At best, it could help explode the shell in the air closer to the target based on GPS data. Which is pretty useless for hardened targets. To actually guide it, you need all the control planes and whistles I mentioned above. None of which are cheap.

FYI,
American ATK PKG
Israeli TopGun
Also I do remember reading about a recent Russian equivalent that uses the GLONASS.

Moreover, I think you are overestimating the ability of manufacturers to make it cost low. Hell, even a 155 mm excalibur guided shell costs 55000 USD. And a 120 mm guided mortar shell costs 7000 USD.

Rockets don't have to deal with the extreme high G forces of being shot out of a cannon and hence their design can be simpler. This link suggests that Guided MLRS rounds costs well below the $100k. I could not find articles on the web on what India is paying for each Smerch rocket but I believe it would be comparable to the GMLRS.

Coming to RoI, we're essentially not disputing the utility of GPS guided rockets here, but rather, we're debating the utility of the Prahaar missile. So lets get back to the crux of the matter. You contend that GPS guided shells and rockets would make prahaar redundant, and that Prahaar is a competitor to the Smerch.

I'm not against ER Smerch, GPS guided MLRS, and any other system available. Indeed, for normal 50-60 km range attacks, it would suffice.

However, you have ignored my points about high firepower, accuracy, need to attack hardened targets, and most of all, the advantages that extra range confer, which make the Prahaar necessary. I have dealt with these in some detail above. Especially against hardened targets, it helps to have an extraa weapon in the quiver. In that sense, the Smerch, GPS guided or not, will not be able to help at all.
...
It'd be great if you could provide a more logical reasoning for why the Prahaar isn't a system you like, or why it is operationally comparable to a Smerch.

You have listed the following advantages of the Prahaar over and MLRS like the Smerch:-
1)high firepower:- How is this valid when when both the systems have the comparable payloads?
2)accuracy:- The American GMLRS has a CEP of < 5-10m, i.e. it is as accurate as most missiles including the Prahaar can be.
3)need to attack hardened targets:- The GMLRS can attack at steep angles if required.
4)advantages that extra range:- The Prahaar is a larger system hence it has a greater range. But a greater range by itself doesn't justify the large investment in resources required for procuring a new system. Also you have discounted the future possibility that with improved technology Smerch can bridge the gap in range.

Thank god then that DRDO and the IA don't have to worry about the opinions of armchair thinkers like us then eh? DRDO finds a need for it. The Army too. Hence they developed it. Till now, we havent seen any missiles being developed on a whim, have we. The effectiveness of ATACMS was pretty well demonstrated during Desert Storm.

My reading(which may be completely wrong and I welcome any information contrary to this) is that the Prahaar was some what of an "unsolicited" development by the DRDO. And how interested is the IA in it? That's another question and I really don't know the answer.

Just to clarify I have made two distinct points:-
1)The Prahaar and the Smerch will compete in the Indian context.
2)Cost effective guided rocket systems like the GMLRS and a possible future version of the Smerch, will make "missiles" with comparable range(like Parhaar) redundant. That is unless they can compete with Guided "rockets" on cost.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jan 2013 22:04

ramana: re: depth

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... tem/263204

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 27 Jan 2013 22:26

Thanks SaiK, was trying to look for the same, could be DDM

Ramana, even with the simple booster, the missile was following a certain trajectory meaning the guidance system is active right from the moment it cleared the water.

arun · Post by **arun** » 27 Jan 2013 22:34

Another video of the launch of the K-15 aka BO-5 SLBM:

Clicky

Added later:

At 17 seconds on the launch timer, the rocket exhaust plume almost shrivels into nothing and then pulses back to the normal. Any idea why?

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Jan 2013 22:35

^^ Goddamn...am getting goosebumps just watching the K-15 blast out of the sea.

Loving it!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jan 2013 22:40

arun: pl read ramana's post for your answers.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 27 Jan 2013 22:47

arun wrote:Another video of the launch of the K-15 aka BO-5 SLBM:

Clicky

Added later:

At 17 seconds on the launch timer, the rocket exhaust plume almost shrivels into nothing and then pulses back to the normal. Any idea why?

Saar, it is the booster falling off.. You can see it more clearly in this other video of the K-15's land based avatar.. Bliss to check around 55 seconds..

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 27 Jan 2013 22:57

Uttam wrote:
negi wrote:I wonder why does Shaurya needs a nose shroud ; Brahmos requires it because it has a ram air intake .
(Just guessing).

Is it protect the nose skin from any kind of damage that sea water can do to the nose skin? I suppose the material and shape of missile nose is optimized to bear the high temperatures of flight through air and even a slightest scratch can be a killer for the missile (remember the Space Shuttle Columbia).

When Brahmos ejects its cap, it is powered by its booster and ram air intake yet to commence. Cap is a way of sealing the missile in canister.

disha · Post by **disha** » 27 Jan 2013 22:59

ramana wrote:...Firstpost is new to this reporting. He dropped a "1". There is no K5 vehicle.

Only K15 and K4

Great job all around ... congrats.

My take:

K15 => 1,500 KM range
K4 => 4,000 KM range

Arihant or Aridaman can be anywhere in Bay of Bengal and still be able to target all major cities of China.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 27 Jan 2013 23:03

K15 has a 700km range with 1000kg payload which increases to 2000km using 500kg payload. I was watching a utube vidoe and there I found it. K4 seems to be A3 based having 5000+ km range as per the PPT.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 27 Jan 2013 23:04

It diameter increases as India moves into South China sea. More Mauritius type agreements are needed in some islands towards Japan.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 27 Jan 2013 23:16

The official line has been that Shaurya/K15 have a >750kms range but that the exact range is classified information.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jan 2013 23:40

^ the unditv report says 1500km range

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Jan 2013 23:56

ramana wrote: Firstpost is new to this reporting. He dropped a "1". There is no K5 vehicle.

Only K15 and K4

Ramana ji
There is no K15 or K-5 that is maya only, B-05 and K-4 are real

From here
Also here
India Successfully Test Fires Underwater Missile - TSS & Y.Mallikarjun, The Hindu

India on Sunday successfully test-fired the underwater ballistic missile, K-15 (code-named B05)

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 28 Jan 2013 01:06

In the NDTV report, there's a moment where the reporter on site spills out some secrets when he mentions "the missile goes up and then goes down and then goes up again". You can see Saraswat bowing his head and probably silently cursing.

Also, I think the various news reports mentioning 1500 KM range is no DDM mistake.
There's something to it.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 28 Jan 2013 01:25

It's amazing how people like to selectively pick and choose what is DDMitis and what is genuine. All the news reports citing 1500kms range that I have seen are all based on the same PTI release. It may well be the range (I have often wondered about why it is called K15 and of course the range depends on the payload. But the official range is 750kms+ and what exactly it is is classified. It is best that it remains that way.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 28 Jan 2013 01:28

ManuJ wrote:In the NDTV report, there's a moment where the reporter on site spills out some secrets when he mentions "the missile goes up and then goes down and then goes up again". You can see Saraswat bowing his head and probably silently cursing.

Also, I think the various news reports mentioning 1500 KM range is no DDM mistake.
There's something to it.

Did any one hear bip in the video or it's just me ?

-Ankit

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 28 Jan 2013 02:07

Ankit there was a bip when dr. saraswat spoke.

sanjchopra · Post by **sanjchopra** » 28 Jan 2013 02:08

'Missile man' cried after successful launch from under sea

True karma yogi. Thank you sir for your services to the nation.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jan 2013 02:57

per that chindu photo caption, b-05 is the code name. now code names are actually from the maya world.

now on the ranges, it is better to keep it under formal official specs.

--

I hope, we can get a team formed from ISRO and DRDO IGMDP groups to show how a focused team can achieve things.. we need Kaveri to survive.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Jan 2013 02:58

What a great achievement by DRDL, SLBM is one of the most difficult things to do. pallav bagla also said the chinese had a sub explosion when they fired the missile but forgot to open the hatch and the missile exploded in the sub ::D

may be the final instruction which was to open the hatch was missing from russia

Btw now that ejecting from under water and ignition has been achieved would it be possible to have cruise missile variants of this missile, want to deliver some to the karachi oil dumps like missile boats did in 1971

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jan 2013 03:11

I would not gloat on chinese misfortunes. If not an enemy system, we would not even have a GoI supported plan on missile defence.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Jan 2013 03:47

Republic day came a couple of days late. Congratulations to the whole team.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 28 Jan 2013 06:50

It is amazing how much missile capability has matured in INDIA. Now a SLBM launch is a page 3 news and almost draws - "yawn...what is next" kind of reaction. A few decades ago a "PRITHVI" launch was making to first page. The way DRDO is pulling out missiles is a testimony to a very very flexible platform they have developed based on which they are fast changing the various parameters and coming up with stable systems. Seems like they have been drawing heavily from re-use paradym like the auto industry where multiple cars share the same platform. Great job.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 28 Jan 2013 07:48

Wow...just Wow

Finally a video of the secretive K-X project of Indian Missiles. I don't know how many times I have watched the video of the missile coming out of the water. Gives me goosebumps everytime

. Stupendofantabuloslyfantistical achievement by our esteemed DRDO scientists. Take a bow DRDO champions for this truly astonishing feat. As it is rightly put in the missile video "Missile is visible and out"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jan 2013 08:04

waiting for K4 launch and K15 launch from arihant now...

we should to somewhere near the alaska coast and test fire the K4 to impact targets in the Kura test range in siberia. gives our biraders a better view of the proceedings.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Jan 2013 08:07

SagarAg wrote:Wow...just Wow Finally a video of the secretive K-X project of Indian Missiles. I don't know how many times I have watched the video of the missile coming out of the water. Gives me goosebumps everytime . Stupendofantabuloslyfantistical achievement by our esteemed DRDO scientists. Take a bow DRDO champions for this truly astonishing feat. As it is rightly put in the missile video "Missile is visible and out"

^^ +1.

Had 3 wet dreams since last 3-4 years when news of all these projects were released:

1. See a video of Desi SLBM shooting out of the water
2. See video of Desi MIRV illuminating night sky like the Minuteman video over Hawaii islands.
3. Video of Arihant suddenly prowling out of the water alongside the Chakra and firing a few missiles.

1 has been fulfilled and have been continuously looping the same again and again and the goosebumps just refuse to die down!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 28 Jan 2013 08:08

Has there been any report on at what depth the missile was fired from?

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Jan 2013 08:10

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/307999/undersea-missile-launch-puts-india.htmlUndersea missile launch puts India in elite club

India on Sunday joined a select league of nations with the capability of firing nuclear-tipped missiles from land, air and sea by taking a big step in completing the nuclear triad more than 12 years after Pokhran II nuclear tests.

A successful underwater launch of a ballistic missile took place in the Bay of Bengal off Visakhapatnam on Sunday. The missile was launched from a pontoon and was tested for its full range. It met every mission objective.

All the parameters of the vehicle were monitored by radar all through the trajectory and terminal events took place exactly as expected, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which developed the missile known as B05, said in a statement.

“This was the 11th launch of the missile from underwater. In addition, there were three tests from the land. All tests were highly successful, but they were kept a closely guarded secret. It is a medium range missile, which is now fully developed,” a DRDO spokesperson told Deccan Herald.

Only the USA, France, Russia and China have submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM), which India was developing for the better part of the last decade as a reliable second strike capability in case of a nuclear attack.

While DRDO did not disclose the SLBM’s range , there were unconfirmed reports in the past that defence scientists were developing two SLBMs — one with a range of about 700 km (K-15) and a second one whose range is upwards 3,000 km (K-4). The B05 missile launched on Sunday was the K-15.

The SLBM may be fitted to indigenous nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant, which is yet to commence sea trial.

Last December, when Navy Chief Admiral D K Joshi was asked when Arihant would begin sea trial, he said, “The good news is expected shortly” giving rise to speculations on the state of readiness for the 6000-tonne submarine powered by a 80 Mwe indigenous nuclear reactor.

It flew perfectly in its trajectory and hit the target after six minutes, which was monitored and recorded by naval ships placed along the trajectory.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2013 08:24

Saik, Thanks for the NDTV link.

B05 is a 1500 km range vehicle tested at half the range to 700km. So far 11 tests from a pontoon were conducted. Three from land.

From the interview this is the last pontoon development test. Its ready for sub launch whenever they are ready to do so.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1382976

For the stats geeks: Plot the 14 tests on probability paper and check out the confidence limits.

Assign rank 1 thru 11 for the tests and assume all were 700km range.

They should have used nautical miles but heck.

nash · Post by **nash** » 28 Jan 2013 08:45

During interview:

Dr saraswat : ..... missile has to "beep" within the water....

now what can be that secret word???

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 28 Jan 2013 08:51

nash wrote:During interview:

Dr saraswat : ..... missile has to "beep" within the water....

now what can be that secret word???

He said "travel". I don't know why was it beeped out.

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Jan 2013 09:06

subhamoy.das wrote:It is amazing how much missile capability has matured in INDIA. Now a SLBM launch is a page 3 news and almost draws - "yawn...what is next" kind of reaction. A few decades ago a "PRITHVI" launch was making to first page. The way DRDO is pulling out missiles is a testimony to a very very flexible platform they have developed based on which they are fast changing the various parameters and coming up with stable systems. Seems like they have been drawing heavily from re-use paradym like the auto industry where multiple cars share the same platform. Great job.

A google search on Sagarika landed me on a very old link (just before Pokhran-II). Those were the dark days ... all sorts of MTCR applied on us, Agni was a Technology demonstrator and we were struggling with re-entry, and the only mature missile we'd developed was the Prithvi.

Jump over to now - We have mastered IRBMs, mastered under-sea launch, developing ICBMs, looking at ASAT and MIRVs, developing LRCMs, developed Prahaar tactical SRBM . I haven't heard the four-letter word MTCR, because it is completely irrelevant - we are far more advanced that most of the countries in the MTCR.

I think the inflection point was somewhere around 2006-2008 when suddenly we'd all sorts of new missiles cropping up, and DRDO has been unstoppable since then.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2013 09:22

The inflection point was VK Saraswat.

vasu raya, the guidance is turned on even while in the pontoon a few minutes before T-120? T-0 being surface broach.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 28 Jan 2013 09:36

USA, France, Russia and China

This is the real list of nations which actually have SLBM capabilities with now India being the fifth otherwise could never get how britannia biscuit found it's way in the list when actually the queen is nooke noode.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Jan 2013 09:41

SagarAg wrote:
nash wrote:During interview:

Dr saraswat : ..... missile has to "beep" within the water....

now what can be that secret word???
He said "travel". I don't know why was it beeped out.

SagarAg ji what if the missile indeed travels in the water horizontally before it rises out of water?

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Jan 2013 09:43

Found this comment in a article on SLBM in ToI:

Col. (retd) B.S. Chibh (Pathankote)
31 Jul, 2012 09:45 PM
No country tells the other what they have. AGNI-5 is an old missile so is the SLBM. These are being demonstrated from the production batches. AGNI-6 and MRVs are long ready.

Wonder how authentic this is

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Jan 2013 09:45

Nice.. Very very very nice.

The Chinese must be sh*tting bricks with this test video out. Any thoughtful sane thinking Chinese will realize (and none of the drones posting here seem to be that .. unfortunately) that 1962 and the further propping up of Pakistan militarily , diplomatically and with nuke weapons was a serious strategic mistake. They have awakened a reluctant giant adversary and filled it with resolve.

If anything shows a viable and serious second strike capability, this is it. Technology wise, it is a great step forward. I think this ability to fire K-15 and K4 out of the same tubes is a great innovation. What we have with a 80MWt and 110m ship is really a hunter killer class sub, and not a real boomer. But what we have done is given a hunter killer with strategic strike capability. While the SSKN from others are limited to carrying cruise missiles from their VLS tubes and the ICBM class in their boomer, India, has loaded IRBM class missiles in an SSK with just 4, longer than normal (for VLS) tubes in the hump behind the sail (when the photos of Arihant are finally released, I think this is what we will see). That way, we will probably not have to deploy two class of boats , but rather one class of a larger sized fleet. The world Navies I think are going to slap their heads and say , why didn't we think of this (esp the French and the Brits with smaller Navies and limited wallets).

So cunning Yindoos have put a credible deterrent in place with SSKN class boats for it's adversaries.. For the Pig Nation (not that it is needed) and for the Lizard. We really dont need an ICBM class weapon.. An Agni V / 5000 Km throw MIRV thing is all that is needed. We might still build boomers with tubes sized form a 9000KM throw class missile,but that is just to make things "future proof" and not a strategic necessity.

That gives us flexibility. For eg, the VLS tubes in Arihant can carry Brahmos as well (if it can carry the K-15/Shourya). So really it can mount 12 Brahmos in anti ship roles , in addition to the probably carrying Nirbhay class cruise missiles for long range surface strike from it's VLS tubes.

vasu raya, the guidance is turned on even while in the pontoon a few minutes before T-120? T-0 being surface broach.

It must be guided fully until the main engine ignites, especially underwater and broaching the surface. There are probably vanes in the booster that do that underwater. The tidal, wave action and motion of the submarine (and the hence drag on the missile as it leaves the tube) have to be compensated for and controlled.