Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 30 Jan 2013 11:42

But, what adds more teeth to the killer missile is the array of gen-text technologies that are embedded onboard, a majority of features till kept under wraps

That seems true.

If it is called as one of the best missile in its class and that too if it comes from a Missile man and head of drdo, it should mean something na?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 30 Jan 2013 11:58

It is primarily employed against land targets. The missile is incorporated with very-high accuracy navigation systems with completely different and specific schemes, that can steer the vehicle towards the target with single-digit accuracy,” sources said.

Someone in this thread also mentioned that the nose cone visible after the cap is ejected looks like its made of ceramic, i.e. different to the teal coloured nose cone of Shaurya. Putting all of this together, I have a feeling B05 can house a seeker in the nose and can be 'secondarily' employed against ships.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 30 Jan 2013 12:00

If we consider the CLGM and Rudra/LCH together, i think we are looking at a possibility of having a HellFire kind of a weapon system. This can free up the Helina for mobile targets.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Jan 2013 12:29

Shaurya follows Quasi Ballistic Trajectory spending most time of its flight in atmosphere which manouvering and changing altitude making ABM system very difficult to predict the interception point , Atmosphere flight also means ABM interceptor will have to experience high G while intercepting such targets making it very difficult kinemetically for interceptor.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 30 Jan 2013 12:40

I must admit:

From rag-tag days of carrying around a nose cone of a sounding rocket on a bicycle and launching it, to the uber TFTA looking AGNI-V and the SLBM, we have come a long way. One of the few things going good these days.

The launch video was breath-taking. Nothing can describe the sheer awesomeness of that beast rising out of the serene ocean on its way to destroy its enemies. Arihant will live upto its name with this missile.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Jan 2013 16:15

From tarmak:

The scientists at Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Missile Complex in Hyderabad are an inspired lot, thanks to successful test (14h one) of the 750-km range submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM), K-15. The missile (codenamed B-05), was tested for its full range from a submerged pontoon, off the coast of Vishakapatanam on January 27, 2013.
Sources in the Missile Complex tell Express that K-15 was launched from an underwater vehicle with an approximate depth of 50 meters. But, what adds more teeth to the killer missile is the array of gen-text technologies that are embedded onboard, a majority of features till kept under wraps. “The medium range missile, with a capacity to be launched from multiple platforms has so far undergone many trials. It is primarily employed against land targets. The missile is incorporated with very-high accuracy navigation systems with completely different and specific schemes, that can steer the vehicle towards the target with single-digit accuracy,” sources said.
The scientists have designed special alignment techniques with most modern algorithms which are specific to underwater missions. “We have used most modern computing and actuating systems for the missile. It has a two-stage booster, with one being employed under water and the other above the surface. The underwater dynamics are totally different from the aerodynamic environment. Here the hydro-dynamics come into picture and you got to take into account factors like water pressure, wave speed, its direction and many more,” sources said.
The K-15 missile is a ballistic one, but travels through the atmosphere all through the mission. It is being controlled and guided all through by onboard guidance computer system. The missile now enters probably its most-critical phase, when it will be integrated with India’s first home-grown N-powered submarine INS Arihant, which is warming up for its maiden sea-acceptance trials.
“We will have more number of trials on the naval platform, but parallely the missile will get into the production mode. Once the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS) goes live next year, all our future missions will have pin-point navigation support,” sources said.
Speaking to Express from Hyderabad, Defence Research Development Laboratory (DRDL) Director and K-15 Programme Director A K Chakrabarty said his team had a challenging job on hand. “When you execute underwater missions, the rules of the game changes. While launching the missile (from a submarine) nothing should happen to the platform, considering it's a manned one. Hence, it was a huge challenge to our designers,” Chakrabarty said.
Over 200 scientists and officers from five DRDO labs, including DRDL (Hyderabad), Research Centre Imarat (Hyderabad), Advanced System Laboratory (Hyderabad), R&D Engineers (Pune) and Interim Test Range (Balasore) are involved with the K-15 project. More than 50 per cent of scientists who worked on the project are said to be youngsters holding Sc-B and Sc-C ranks in DRDO.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 30 Jan 2013 16:23

> It has a two-stage booster, with one being employed under water and the other above the surface.
Does this mean that the submarine _has_ to be in a particular depth range ...like between 40-80m below sea level to launch the missile at all?
What if the submarine is just 10m below? Will things still work?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Jan 2013 16:25

I think it is the case with each SLBM, you need a minimum depth

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Jan 2013 16:53

WRT, the CLGM/SAMHO, I know that the IA is desirous of having the CLGM for Arjun. But has the IA ever displayed a need for the missile to have a wider application. In the absence of the IA coming up with a specific requirement, I don't think that the SAMHO, will see any service with the IA, as they have ordered about 12000 ?? Kornets, only in the last few years.

In the interests of simplified logistics. They may not be too keen on having a system having overlapping capability with the Kornet.

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 30 Jan 2013 17:19

Pratyush wrote:In the interests of simplified logistics. They may not be too keen on having a system having overlapping capability with the Kornet.

Its simpler than that. DRDO doesn't employ the services of middle men hence IA won't buy.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 30 Jan 2013 19:39

Pratyush wrote:I don't think that the SAMHO, will see any service with the IA, as they have ordered about 12000 ?? Kornets, only in the last few years.

In the interests of simplified logistics. They may not be too keen on having a system having overlapping capability with the Kornet.

Even if IA has ordered 12,000 of these missiles how long do you think they will last and is 12,000 CLGM enough a number to take care of our requirements in both fronts ???

I don't think 12,000 is a big enough no. nor is it going to last long so SAMHO will see the light of the day. About SAMHO from DRDO Defexpo 2010 brochure

Semi-Active Mission Homing Missile (SAMHO)

* A versatile tube-launched antitank Laserguided Missile.
* Can be launched from multiple platforms
* Engages ground and low-flying aerial targets up to 5km range
* Has a tandem HEAT warhead that can defeat MBTs and helicopters
* Modular architecture for greater design flexibility
* Gas generator based ejection followed by boost-sustain rocket propulsion after a safe distance from the launch post

Salient Features

Range - 1.5-5 km
Diameter - 120 mm
Length - 1000 mm
Missile mass - 18.5 kg
SSKP - 0.8
CEP - 0.75 m
Kill mechanisms - Tandem HEAT and HEF
Propulsion - Ejection Charge followed by Boost – Sustain rocket propulsion
Cruising speed - 250 m/s
Guidance - (a) Midcourse – Inertial-MEMS based
(b) Terminal – Semi-Active Laser Homing
Control - Aerodynamic tail control with electromechanical actuation
Target Designation - (a) Direct – By the missile launching platform
(b) Indirect – By external laser designator

Brochure posted in R&D Thread

Sagar G wrote:A TFTA brochure by DRDO from def expo 2010, has a lot of info about systems developed/under development.

DRDO DefExpo 2010

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Jan 2013 19:50

they can always cut down the number....

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 30 Jan 2013 20:00

Pratyush wrote:WRT, the CLGM/SAMHO, I know that the IA is desirous of having the CLGM for Arjun. But has the IA ever displayed a need for the missile to have a wider application. In the absence of the IA coming up with a specific requirement, I don't think that the SAMHO, will see any service with the IA, as they have ordered about 12000 ?? Kornets, only in the last few years.

In the interests of simplified logistics. They may not be too keen on having a system having overlapping capability with the Kornet.

Let me say where CLGM matches & overwhelms Kornet in application.

1. CLGM can be fired from MBT, but not Kornet due to bigger dimension.
2. Adv homing guidance than kornet
3. Warheads in CLGM allows as much of target engagement as that of Kornet.
4. A capability similar to Fire and Forget.(INS, GPS, Laser)
5. Modular architecture.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2013 20:04

i wonder if with proper sensor(IIR or MMW) this can be made a indirect fire weapon against hidden targets.
sort of like a tank fired SFW (2 vertical attack submunitions per round) with a lofted range of 10km.

a salvo of these weapons (2 rounds each) from a line of 10 tanks could knock of plenty of targets from well before enemy tanks even get in range.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Jan 2013 20:42

Singha: ask & you shall receive. Check out this image posted by Sancho in the LCH thread. We can ask where he got it from. But it shows a similar NLOS scenario with GLCM/SAMHO that you talked about, but with a laser seeker and without the sub-munitions.

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/355/ ... thclgm.png

Check out also the 2nd image that he posted - its also in Chorgupta's blog.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3850/scan90084.jpg

The 2nd image talks about a knock-out engine which imparts a 50m/s velocity before the main motor kicks in. We are getting into the man-portable ATGM regime here. It also talks about an inertial-MEMS mid course guidance, while Hemant Kumar Rout's report talks about a GPS guidance. Maybe it has both.

This missile is also a very likely Rudra, LCH candidate operating in tandem with Helina (& also as a stop-gap before Helina is production ready)

All very exciting onlee!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Jan 2013 23:49

Interestingly there has been no comment in the Western press about the SLBM demonstration. Not even a stray report.
It is remarkable how coordinated this free press really is.

Of course this is a good thing, silence means consent if not approval.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 31 Jan 2013 00:35

Speculating that B05 with its 2 step booster might be doing maneuvers underwater using its 1st step pulling it away from the sub after its gas generator ejection to keep the sub safe, the 50m launch depth makes it possible.

Ideally we should see a cousin that is probably 7m in length and fits in the 533mm torpedo tubes which can come out of the water vertically and probably have a range of 750km with a 200kg warhead. This can complement the relatively longer ranged subsonic Nirbhay.

srai · Post by **srai** » 31 Jan 2013 00:54

Prem Kumar wrote:CLGM seems to be a reverse engineered version of Lahat. More power to DRDO! Our MBTs can hit the other guy before he can even see us. Plus it looks like a modular design that can be fitted onto different platforms. This baby has a lot of potential. A 105mm diameter (like Lahat) would have made this even more versatile!...

It's not "reverse engineered" per se. AFAIK, Israelis have been involved in adapting the 105mm missile to 120mm. There were firings of LAHAT back in 2004 or thereabouts from Arjun Mk.1. From there it seems some sort of JV on LAHAT occurred with the Israelis to modify the dimensions and other subsystems in order to integrate optimally with Arjun Mk.2 MBT.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jan 2013 02:23

Prem Kumar, Can SAMHO be used to take out bunkers and mountain top sangars? Would supplant the Krasnopol in that role.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Jan 2013 02:51

Not enough range or warhead to supplant the Krasnopol.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 31 Jan 2013 03:04

Guess design of such munitions requires electronics and actuators that can survive the initial g-shock, anyways this kind of munition if it comes into being in desi hands should offset the consumption rate of artillery shells which was phenomenal during Kargil. Change of tactics is a different matter.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Jan 2013 03:10

ramana wrote:Prem Kumar, Can SAMHO be used to take out bunkers and mountain top sangars? Would supplant the Krasnopol in that role.

I dont see why not, provided the launch platform is aerial like Rudra, LCH etc. With a 5 KM range though, its borderline within MANPAD engagement envelopes. But the air launched versions of SAMHO would definitely have a greater range. Combined with IR suppression in Rudra/LCH, it will make it possible for them to take out mountain bunkers and get out without getting shot at.

It could even potentially be used by infantry, but in the mountains, it might depend on the terrain.

As a bunker-buster on LOC, it would be great. For instance, we could use this to eliminate the post that was providing covering fire to the SSG pigs who beheaded our jawans.

It would also be great for taking out infiltrators without having to air-drop special forces every time. They can go in just to clean up

This baby is our own mini-Hellfire - the Daal-Roti variety. Helina could be reserved for more specialized targets like MBTs.

It will be interesting to see SAMHO's warhead weight, to assess its ATGM potential

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Jan 2013 04:06

So what does it take to have an experimental unit take out one of those for proof?

SAMHo has a HE-F payload. Could be High Exp-Fragmented. Hope its sleeve which can be taken off.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Jan 2013 04:18

They can do that ... Atleast Helina has been advertised as being modular and that it can be used as an A2G missile in the future. So I wouldn't be surprised if SAMHO is also designed in the same way.

But, is the question to have a precision A2G weapon with long range? Then, why wouldn't they alter Sudarshan (as they are doing). Also make it rocket powered for longer range and added maneuverability.

To have a long range G2G weapon, they have to be able to launch the projectile (atleast) 20 km away ... SAMHO would not have that oomph. Can they reuse SAMHO's guidance for a Krasnopol equivalent. The answer I think is a definite yes.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 31 Jan 2013 04:24

er, ramanaji, we never had a dearth of man-portable bunker busters and Krasnopol would still be needed at LOC ranges. I dont think this SAMHo is going to see such border action, as there are way too many products that India already has spent money on, which can do the task.

This one is probably going to be used in other smaller caliber guns of APC types, as a nice compromise to take potshots at MBTs. Or maybe a Brimstone equivalent role from air

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Jan 2013 04:45

was this samho part of some GSQR or an offshoot development? there should be a strong reason or requirements for this.

srai · Post by **srai** » 31 Jan 2013 07:37

^^^

SAMHO was developed for Arjun MBT. So yes, there should be a requirement somewhere stating that Arjun Mk.2 needs to have gun fired anti-tank missile similar to that of T-90's capability. This is part of the 80+ upgrades requested by the IA. Maybe the IA specifically did not mention that DRDO make the missile, but it would have given enough parameters, such as platform, range, etc., that would have enabled DRDO to take the initiative to partner with the Israelis on modifying and integrating their LAHAT missiles. Now that the missile is developed, it will most likely be used on more platforms in various configurations.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Jan 2013 07:59

Then that would also indirectly answer ramana's questions, in the sense Arjunk Mk.2 may not deploy-able at all yellow sea places (mountainous range).

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Jan 2013 08:01

^ Yes. CLGM is meant for Arjun MBT as LAHAT replacement. So whatever role LAHAT played(ex. helli-borne) CLGM is projected to that do.

It is much more potent than LAHAT and comparable to Kornet.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Jan 2013 08:40

indranilroy wrote:Can they reuse SAMHO's guidance for a Krasnopol equivalent. The answer I think is a definite yes.

I doubt...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2013 08:57

question for physics kamandu's. what is the impact speed of ICBM RVs? they claim ICBM travel at mach20 + . is that the speed at 3rd stage burnout when the unpowered RVs begin coasting towards their targets ballistically?

I look at this video of a russian test and the 5 RVs coming down on same area do not seem to be travelling at mach20...more like mach1 imho?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaLvTZqXNmU

even if they were mach2, the path is straight and predictable...a good point defence SAM like Spyder should be able to track and take down these warheads (glowing red on IIR sensors)?

so why is ICBM considered such a brahmastra if a good point defence SAM system can take them down?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Jan 2013 09:05

may be they dropped the RVs from some airborne platform (joke), but that trajectory is sooooo slow. does not appear to be ICBM RVs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2013 09:28

excellent animation of how a minuteman icbm operates http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ9tgSgx3PY

people are going to love this - a movie named "first strike" meant to scare monger kangress into releasing more funds for MX program perhaps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlPEBROvR9w run run the SS-18s are coming...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 Jan 2013 10:15

Kanson wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Can they reuse SAMHO's guidance for a Krasnopol equivalent. The answer I think is a definite yes.
I doubt...

Why?

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 31 Jan 2013 10:30

In the last min of the video we see that a important question is raised,
But nobody evelas that this missile was actually fored from INS Arihant. he he

In this video the lady is prepared for disaster

India is prepared to go to war with Pakistan he he

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2013 10:33

the NDTV ^ above mentions strike range as 1500km though test was 700km.
is the 1500km with a 500kg payload vs 700k with a 1t mythical payload?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 31 Jan 2013 11:14

PratikDas wrote:
It is primarily employed against land targets. The missile is incorporated with very-high accuracy navigation systems with completely different and specific schemes, that can steer the vehicle towards the target with single-digit accuracy,” sources said.
Someone in this thread also mentioned that the nose cone visible after the cap is ejected looks like its made of ceramic, i.e. different to the teal coloured nose cone of Shaurya. Putting all of this together, I have a feeling B05 can house a seeker in the nose and can be 'secondarily' employed against ships.

How does that work ?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 31 Jan 2013 12:23

If we assume that the nose cone is permeable to radio frequencies, since we know that the missile uses satellite navigation to get within single digit accuracy, a UAV could be used could be used to identify the ballpark of the ship with satellite coordinates and a seeker onboard the missile could track the ship in the terminal phase. Manouevrability has been stated as one of the missile's strong points.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 31 Jan 2013 12:37

A bit like that famed Chinese aircraft carrier killer missile which can also hit targets on land.

Although, seriously a missile like Shaurya/K-15 seems to have a better chance of hitting a moving target than a purely ballistic one. Even if the target is not hit directly, a large enough warhead can seriously damage a CBG. I don't think that we'll hear much about it soon.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 31 Jan 2013 12:44

Yes, Jamwal ji, I believe there is a possibility based on the language in the Tarmak post and I respect that journalist although I am certainly extrapolating. I get no buzz out of using terms like xyz-killer. It satisfies me to think that Arihant might be able to attack from afar with B05 and of course up close with torpedos.