Indian Interests

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RajeshA
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 03 Feb 2013 14:24

harbans wrote:No there is nothing wrong with the question. However even a more starker example:

harbans ji,

I pointed out exactly what is wrong with the question. There is a logical fallacy in your hypothetical. Instead of addressing the logical challenge head on, you always try to skirt it. As is obvious from your subsequent hypotheticals "what if", you will continue to suffer from these logical fallacies and the hypotheticals would end up being mere childish games rather than logical challenges.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 03 Feb 2013 14:37

Rajesh Ji, case 1 and 2 scenarios are very clear. One cannot spin around them.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 03 Feb 2013 14:56

harbans ji,

perhaps one should take this discussion to the "Indic Cultural Renewal" Thread or some other thread in GDF.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 03 Feb 2013 15:21

perhaps one should take this discussion to the "Indic Cultural Renewal" Thread or some other thread in GDF.


Rajesh Ji, this thread is about India's interests. My contention has been that India must identify values it truly wants to believe in. The core institutional decision making ability must emanate from these values. I am not exploring a link between these values and Indian cultural renewal.

Food, Sangeet, Natya, ritual, clothing, worship all aspects of cultural revival can be enhanced has nothing to do with my contention here. So if in a part of Bharat a group says it has been our culture for millenia to say sacrifice a young boy every year to some goddess, the State should have no hesitation in curbing the practice for example.

Case 2 for example, i would go for the option of let the Truth come out. Even if it hurts. I think many who are invested in only cultural renewal as their agenda will not want that to happen. So if you want cultural renewal please do so on that thread. I am about India's Interests. You say that it lies in India's cultural renewal. That is why i gave 2 cases. What choices would one make. Case 2 threatens to wipe out for example, that Sanskrit is Indic to Sanskrit has been given by blue eyed blonde people from the steppes. The very core on which our culture stands..does one stand for the truth or bury it deep and keep up with the facade that the culture is ours. Somewhere we have to differentiate and make a stand.The definitions of India's core interests will fall there. Rest is all maya.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 03 Feb 2013 16:37

harbans ji,

1) the thread is not "Indic Cultural Revival" but "Indic Cultural Renewal"

2) "Food, Sangeet, Natya, ritual, clothing, worship" are not the only things that belong to culture. "Language, Literature, Philosophy, Social Memes, Traditions, Mythology" also belong to Culture, especially in the broader sense. Values are often an expression of Philosophy and Social Memes.

Before your proposal for context-free "values" for the Constitution can be considered, at least you need to show that it is conceptually sound, which is far from the case.

The questions you are putting up are of the kind, "What if you one day find out that the drunkard neighbor is your father? What do you do then?" And then you do a drumbeat about Truth!

Anyway this is a pseudo-philosophical discussion, so I will leave it at that.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_23686 » 03 Feb 2013 18:43

harbans wrote:
Bharatiya Identity and all that it entails - including cultural intelligence on how to apply and uphold values!


Say you have within your 'Bharatiya' identity a particular cultural trait that say demeans women. What would you prefer to defend and fight for. That particular 'Bharatiya' trait or the women folk that are victim of that trait.

This is a single choice simple question. What would you fight to death to defend. Values or Culture?


harbans ji, 'Bharatiya' identity already defines position of women (yatra nari pujyate, tatra devta ramante). all the demeaning traits can be removed by-

1. providing proper ways to make a living to youths
2. creating a system that rewards hardwork
3. proper law enforcement

'Bharatiya' do not stop their daughters and wives from getting jobs and living freely if they know that they won't be gangraped by juveniles. 'Bharatiya' men also respect women when they are getting what they deserve from their hardwork.

we do know of certain identities which did not allowed women participation in workforce and even discouraged us while civilizing us.

harbans wrote:No there is nothing wrong with the question. However even a more starker example:

Case 1:
Say you are in medieval India. A powerful neighborhood mlecha cheftain says : "i want 3 pretty young women from your villages each year. Else i will ransack and smash the millenia old XYZ temple and it's sacred idol just across'. What are you going to do? The choice is a fight where you have sort of a chance but not much. You can save the villages and the sacred temple though by compromise.

Answer Choices:

(A) Give 3 girls and keep intact the local temple and idol.
(B) Fight even though it might mean destruction of the temple and idol.



Case 2: You get irrevocable proof that oh man..the AIT is true. That Veda's came from central siberia. Snskrit too came from elsewhere and not Bharat. But with that finding you also have a choice. Bury it and no one will know the Truth. What will you prefer to do..bury the Truth or put the Truth forward as it is..that Sanskrit and the Veda's came from elsewhere..

Answer Choices:

(A) Bury the Truth, no one will know.
(B) Expose the Truth about Veda's and Sanskrit, even though it implies the basics of our culture lie outside India.

Case 1 and Case 2..what are your answers going to be?


case1: b
send away women and kids to comeback and re-establish the idol

case2:
ait is false... period. there have been so much discussion, just don't start it again.
even if vedas were given to homo penguines in antarctica, it doesn't change anything. we are the ones who stick to it. if alexander's ancestors created it then his kids should have protected them instead for asking for love and peace. if our kids leave vedas then they don't deserve it, let andromedans claim it.
harbans wrote:
perhaps one should take this discussion to the "Indic Cultural Renewal" Thread or some other thread in GDF.


Rajesh Ji, this thread is about India's interests. My contention has been that India must identify values it truly wants to believe in. The core institutional decision making ability must emanate from these values. I am not exploring a link between these values and Indian cultural renewal.

Food, Sangeet, Natya, ritual, clothing, worship all aspects of cultural revival can be enhanced has nothing to do with my contention here. So if in a part of Bharat a group says it has been our culture for millenia to say sacrifice a young boy every year to some goddess, the State should have no hesitation in curbing the practice for example.

Case 2 for example, i would go for the option of let the Truth come out. Even if it hurts. I think many who are invested in only cultural renewal as their agenda will not want that to happen. So if you want cultural renewal please do so on that thread. I am about India's Interests. You say that it lies in India's cultural renewal. That is why i gave 2 cases. What choices would one make. Case 2 threatens to wipe out for example, that Sanskrit is Indic to Sanskrit has been given by blue eyed blonde people from the steppes. The very core on which our culture stands..does one stand for the truth or bury it deep and keep up with the facade that the culture is ours. Somewhere we have to differentiate and make a stand.The definitions of India's core interests will fall there. Rest is all maya.

i do not know of any case where this is recommended in bharat but i am willing to be proven wrong. i know of cultures where this is recommended.
even if some particular village/tribe/clan lose their mind and start following it, it is the responsibility of king/system to ensure that they end such a system. many examples and stories of great kings exist who took their place in folklore by removing maneating tribes... go figure.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby D Roy » 03 Feb 2013 19:46

Case 1. Protecting the three women is a much more important duty as per Dharma and Bharatiyata as each women is herself a temple where the deity resides. It is not for nothing that the sanctum sanctorum is called the Garbha Griha and is built as per tantric agamas which lay down the rules by which the temple structure mimics female morphology.

Nari rakshita = Dharma rakshita. All those who come forward for it would not just be gaining better sanskars but would be more bharatiya than ever.

Every woman is the site of the devi irrespective of her background or profession and must be protected.

This is why Hindu warriors are strictly forbidden from ever violating the womenfolk of a defeated enemy.

So protecting the women gives us at the minimum a 3-1 scoreline in favour of dharma.

Case 2. AIT is complete and utter nonsense. A patent fabrication that can no longer be supported by anybody.

Dharma wins. Bharatiyata wins. Truth alone Prevails.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 03 Feb 2013 19:57

Dharamraj ji, all that is idealistically Bharatiya may be fine and dandy. But if you have decided Bharatiya implies equality to women, why not just put that as a cornerstone policy. Meanwhile we have in the past, present all sorts of inequities and injustices to women. Look at some of the Bharatiya type leaders statements on the gangrape. Look at our Khaps. Check figures for female infanticide and more. So being Bharatiya may or may not have the required effect to instill a basic value system, that women will be treated equally under our laws.

It is easy within the Bharatiya Sanskriti also to point out inequities against women. Ask any woman who ventures out in India if she's been groped and humiliated anytime. All these people who do such are products of Bharatiya culture only. Now if you dangle a chimera that lets first be Bharatiya in our Constitution fully. We need not have value systems at all. Well Assrams will make policy for you and me. And we will not be ever sure if it works for women.

In the recent past a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Bengal. Do we have to go back to that Sanskriti first? Or do we decide this is wrong and we don't do that again.

even if some particular village/tribe/clan lose their mind and start following it, it is the responsibility of king/system to ensure that they end such a system.


NO why do you consider killing boys losing their mind? It's a part of culture in that place. Why should the King object? The rule book says maintaining Sanskriti comes first. What is a boy's life. Sacrifice to Kali is supreme. This kind of thing is not usually stopped by the Sanskriti maintenance crowd. When such acts happen, recourse should not be to preservation of Sanskriti first.

With Islamics also, most cannot fathom such acts are done by muslims. There is disbelief. Islam means peace. We all have idealistic grandeurs of culture. Muhammed was the most peace loving man you can imagine etc. Didn't you know that Islam gave equal rights to women? Irrespective of the report of Barbarian dad what he did to his 3 year old daughter in the Islamism thread..and worse still: The Islamic Cultural beacon state of Saudi Barbaria's reaction to the rape and murder.

So the first step to identifying India's core interests must lie in identifying what abhors/ outrages you. What do you want to stand up for? These i can identify through values i would like to stand by. The GoI and it's institutions must comply and evolve to stand by them. That is the primary compilation we have to make here. Today the lack of backbone is exemplified even as a SC Judge (Lodha?) tells the Army Chief to blow with the wind..whatever that means, it surely implies a lack of a backbone. So when Islamic armies move to delhi Lodha's will become Mohammed Lodhi's..right? What is this compromise culture, that judges want to negotiate ban on perfectly legitimate scenes some film maker has, just because it has AQ terrorists reciting HK while beheading. No Truth is subservient here to Sanskriti. Truth is subservient to hurt sentiment. Truth is subservient to every idiot group that feels hurt by this and that.

That women should dress modestly looks fine and dandy. Many North Indian states with Islamic influence did exactly that. They found nothing wrong. But was there? There must have been rapes and when people revolted or were outraged, involved groups blamed the victim. So then a rootless society decided, that is a good point. Why not make make stronger purdah system, restrict freedoms of women etc..no harm done. No the harm was done. The choice should never have been based on 'blaiming the victim' for the crime. That is exactly even what one see's after the gangrape incident. Hindu and Muslim flag bearers reacting surprisingly similarly. This equal has not been done by me, but by the flag bearers of Sanskriti. The Assrams and Bhagwats.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby D Roy » 03 Feb 2013 20:03

Bharatiyata is about the innate divinity of *all* women. Where is the question of just equality?

In Indian tradition the woman is a site of prakriti. And that must be the central theme and the ideal India must aspire to where we appeal to the brighter side of our soul.

This is what Gandhi did with respect to Ahimsa.

Settling only for western norms of what constitutes empowerment will not provide women all the support they need.

Empowerment of women in India must have Indian characteristics harking back to all that has been good and great in our philosophy.

Note - this is not a romantic ideal. It can and should be pursued.

Your questions actually go to the heart of the matter as far as the inhabitants of this forum are concerned:

Do you want to be a Bharat Rakshak or do you want to be a "I will make India a superpower in the western sense only" rakshak.

The latter would imply a complete acceptance of western materialist and rationalist perspectives ( indeed I often find J.S Mill like analyses from some Rakshaks) and mere lip service to Dharma.

Bharat has been around for thousands of years with the world's largest economy for most of that period. And I am not even talking about the spiritual economy. The 'west' after seemingly reaching the apogee of power in a short span of three centuries cannot sustain the rather expensive structures it has built. Indeed India and China are set to regain their respective shares of the global economy by as early as 2050. It is important that they do not consciously end up pursuing a westphalian path in their re-emergence. Neither triumphalist nor fatalist be. That is the course of Dharma.

The west will not even be a footnote in history (250 years of dominance is nothing in the sands of time). I don't think anybody should want to base their value systems on the unsustainable and adharmic constructs and concepts germinated in the so called 'west'. (incidentally a name that they have given themselves).
Last edited by D Roy on 03 Feb 2013 20:25, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 03 Feb 2013 20:11

D Roy, the people here are sort of irked by the Dharma term. So i have stopped using that for the interim. As the demand goes India's interests are Hindu interests alone. Hindu Sanskriti should be at the core. The clamor here is not for a Dharmic state, but a Hindu state. I had asked before what such a state would look like, would believe in, i haven't got an objective answer yet. In the real world too that will be a difficult preposition. That is why i focussed on identifying Indian interests through marked values. Most which i picked through the major Dharmic texts.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 03 Feb 2013 20:16

Empowerment of women in India must have Indian characteristics harking back to all that has been good and great in our philosophy.


Sure. And can we make a list of such priorities? What about those that hark on the not so good parts? We must have then overriding references? Indian interests will be achieved when such a list is compiled and made nodal in the constitutional. Anyways let us compile such a list.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_20317 » 03 Feb 2013 20:25

ha ha I like this trivia quiz.

harbans ji,
Re. 1 - protect the women and fight

Re. 2 - Bury the evidence of Sanskrit being foreign. Its just too much of a wealth to give over to imbiciles. Let good thoughts come to us from all sides.

You see between the four guys who replied. Everybody had a different reasoning and a different answer but none is debating each other about these newfangled 'Values'. All of these 4 guys know none is a Messiah. Because 'values' are a water under the bridge. So unless you are working with an 'a priori' position that casts aspersions on everybody who came before you and who are now dead and unable to explain their position as to why they did what they did and how come Dharm! well harbans ji, there is not much debate after that, is it?

Bhai ji, you are here because of what the ancestors did. Good, bad, ugly, whatever. The point is what are you going to do? And what are you going to do to do that?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_20317 » 03 Feb 2013 20:36

harbans wrote:D Roy, the people here are sort of irked by the Dharma term. So i have stopped using that for the interim. As the demand goes India's interests are Hindu interests alone. Hindu Sanskriti should be at the core. The clamor here is not for a Dharmic state, but a Hindu state. I had asked before what such a state would look like, would believe in, i haven't got an objective answer yet. In the real world too that will be a difficult preposition. That is why i focussed on identifying Indian interests through marked values. Most which i picked through the major Dharmic texts.



Harbans ji can we let those 'people here' object on their own. These guys are intelligent capable people who can speak for themselves.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 03 Feb 2013 20:52

Everybody had a different reasoning and a different answer but none is debating each other about these newfangled 'Values'.


Exactly Ravi ji. There are some values today deep inside all of us which we all agree wholeheartedly on. Most maybe even irrespective of our religious denomination. Slipping in these values as anchors to help the state make decisions and draw lakshman rekha's wrt others gives justification and purpose to our meaning as a nation and our leadership. Many of these values are also not exactly new fangled, they've only not been subject to much focus as a nodal point.

harbans ji,
Re. 1 - protect the women and fight

Re. 2 - Bury the evidence of Sanskrit being foreign. Its just too much of a wealth to give over to imbiciles. Let good thoughts come to us from all sides.


Personally i do feel Truth has been upheld equal to God, so i won't agree with your second case conclusion. But then anyways.. :D

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_23686 » 03 Feb 2013 21:02

harbans wrote:Dharamraj ji, all that is idealistically Bharatiya may be fine and dandy. 1.But if you have decided Bharatiya implies equality to women, why not just put that as a cornerstone policy. Meanwhile we have in the past, present all sorts of inequities and injustices to women. 2.Look at some of the Bharatiya type leaders statements on the gangrape. Look at our Khaps. Check figures for female infanticide and more. So being Bharatiya may or may not have the required effect to instill a basic value system, that women will be treated equally under our laws.

It is easy within the Bharatiya Sanskriti also to point out inequities against women. 2.Ask any woman who ventures out in India if she's been groped and humiliated anytime. All these people who do such are products of Bharatiya culture only. Now if you dangle a chimera that lets first be Bharatiya in our Constitution fully. We need not have value systems at all. 2.Well Assrams will make policy for you and me. And we will not be ever sure if it works for women.

3.In the recent past a boy was killed every day at a Kali temple in Bengal. Do we have to go back to that Sanskriti first? Or do we decide this is wrong and we don't do that again.

even if some particular village/tribe/clan lose their mind and start following it, it is the responsibility of king/system to ensure that they end such a system.


NO why do you consider killing boys losing their mind? It's a part of culture in that place. Why should the King object? The rule book says maintaining Sanskriti comes first. What is a boy's life. Sacrifice to Kali is supreme. 4.This kind of thing is not usually stopped by the Sanskriti maintenance crowd. When such acts happen, recourse should not be to preservation of Sanskriti first.

With Islamics also, most cannot fathom such acts are done by muslims. There is disbelief. Islam means peace. We all have idealistic grandeurs of culture. Muhammed was the most peace loving man you can imagine etc. Didn't you know that Islam gave equal rights to women? Irrespective of the report of Barbarian dad what he did to his 3 year old daughter in the Islamism thread..and worse still: The Islamic Cultural beacon state of Saudi Barbaria's reaction to the rape and murder.

5.So the first step to identifying India's core interests must lie in identifying what abhors/ outrages you. What do you want to stand up for? These i can identify through values i would like to stand by. The GoI and it's institutions must comply and evolve to stand by them. That is the primary compilation we have to make here. Today the lack of backbone is exemplified even as a SC Judge (Lodha?) tells the Army Chief to blow with the wind..whatever that means, it surely implies a lack of a backbone. So when Islamic armies move to delhi Lodha's will become Mohammed Lodhi's..right? What is this compromise culture, that judges want to negotiate ban on perfectly legitimate scenes some film maker has, just because it has AQ terrorists reciting HK while beheading. No Truth is subservient here to Sanskriti. Truth is subservient to hurt sentiment. Truth is subservient to every idiot group that feels hurt by this and that.

1.That women should dress modestly looks fine and dandy. Many North Indian states with Islamic influence did exactly that. They found nothing wrong. But was there? There must have been rapes and when people revolted or were outraged, involved groups blamed the victim. So then a rootless society decided, that is a good point. 1.Why not make make stronger purdah system, restrict freedoms of women etc..no harm done. No the harm was done. The choice should never have been based on 'blaiming the victim' for the crime. That is exactly even what one see's after the gangrape incident. 2.Hindu and Muslim flag bearers reacting surprisingly similarly. This equal has not been done by me, but by the flag bearers of Sanskriti. The Assrams and Bhagwats.


i'm numbering the bolded parts-

1. women empowerment is already a cornerstone policy for Bharatiya. here is what i said earlier

"'Bharatiya' do not stop their daughters and wives from getting jobs and living freely if they know that they won't be gangraped by juveniles. 'Bharatiya' men also respect women when they are getting what they deserve from their hardwork."

2. even asuras were able to get boons from devatas and then used those boons for spreading asurism. such "leaders" won't be able to get elected/capture power when-

"1. providing proper ways to make a living to youths
2. creating a system that rewards hardwork
3. proper law enforcement"

3. okay

"i do not know of any case where this is recommended in bharat but i am willing to be proven wrong."

4. which is why i asked for king/system to take responsiblity-

"it is the responsibility of king/system to ensure that they end such a system. many examples and stories of great kings exist who took their place in folklore by removing maneating tribes... go figure"

5. the hijacking of our memes is what outrages me. you get the memes right and system will fall in place. when system will resonate with our memes, it will naturally radiate policies that uphold the moral values, but getting morals right without correcting the system and ownership of our memes will end up with us dead and our women becoming commodities. one should not forget what time has taught us. durga did not anshan-ed while fighting with mahishasura.... prithviraj let ghazni get away... both things had different effects, one prevented girls from getting raped, other gave you khaps.

ps- daer supreme court saar, i don't subscribe to harbans ji views on a shri judge ji....and this is not facebook so i did not liked it even.....

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_23686 » 03 Feb 2013 21:08

in case harbans ji miss my response, here is the most important one-

5. the hijacking of our memes is what outrages me. you get the memes right and system will fall in place. when system will resonate with our memes, it will naturally radiate policies that uphold the moral values, but getting morals right without correcting the system and ownership of our memes will end up with us dead and our women becoming commodities. one should not forget what time has taught us. durga did not anshan-ed while fighting with mahishasura.... prithviraj let ghazni get away... both things had different effects, one prevented girls from getting raped, other gave you khaps.

the memes here is bhartiya identity onlee...

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 03 Feb 2013 21:14

Friends,

Please do not fall into the nonsensical trap-questions.

In the first case your choice depends upon the girl population in the group, the probability of winning/losing the war, the birth rates, the time required for you to make the probability of winning the war near 100% and so on...

The logical fallacy of Harban's question is on one hand he wants to give the girls equal rights but he is ok with 1000s of men dying for 3 girls.

His questions are nothing but rhetoric. His interest is to weaken Hindus but not strengthen them. He has no interest in making non-Hindus dharmic but to make Hindus non-Hindus.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_20317 » 03 Feb 2013 21:19

harbans ji, kindly excuse my interference in this debate. You already are debating more than your fair share of opponents. Thodi jyada pi li thi aaj.

I will try not to burden you with my presense on this matter. I would, like otherwise, be relying on the judgement of so many already arguing for my understandings/stands.

Thanks everybody. Please continue. With further debating I am sure the kleshas in each of us, will get resolved ultimately. And I don't mean this as a sarcasm. I mean, I really mean it.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 03 Feb 2013 21:29

harbans ji, dharmaraj ji, RamaY ji, ravi_g ji,

I have created another thread - The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition.

Perhaps you could take this discussion on politico-philosophy, Indian Constitution to that thread. It would be better suited to discuss fundamentals!

Please feel free to cross-post!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby member_23686 » 03 Feb 2013 21:37

RajeshA ji, x posted the relevant posts in your thread

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 03 Feb 2013 22:08

Please do not fall into the nonsensical trap-questions.

In the first case your choice depends upon the girl population in the group, the probability of winning/losing the war, the birth rates, the time required for you to make the probability of winning the war near 100% and so on...

The logical fallacy of Harban's question is on one hand he wants to give the girls equal rights but he is ok with 1000s of men dying for 3 girls.


So the Bharatiya Sanskriti that you envisage is give 3 young girls to the mlecha's. Nice compromise. I wonder what Rama would think of your statement above. After all 1000's did die for Sita.

If the responses from the Bharatiya's can differ so much seen through the Bharatiya prism, it would be impossible as most would squabble. Ramay through his Bharatiya/ HIndutva prism does not mind giving the mlecha cheftain 3 young girls from the fold to preserve his temple, idol etc. Small price really 3 girls for him. Dharamraj Ji, D Roy and Ravi G would fight for the girls through their own Dharmic/ Bharatiya prisms. And i agree with them not even from any Bharatiya prism..
His interest is to weaken Hindus but not strengthen them.


You have some gall to say that after what you posted Ramay Ji.

Dhramraj ji, i did read your responses.
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 03 Feb 2013 22:11

^ Some kind souls created a separate thread for you. Please go post there.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 04 Feb 2013 03:01

A certificate for holiness in India

This centre - dedicated to Lord Shiva - is especially popular with the tribal population in this lush district close to the Aravali mountain range and the picturesque Malwa Plateau - it has been described as "the Haridwar for tribals".The site has a water tank called the Mandakini Kund, where people take a bath to purify their body and soul.The legend here goes that a sage named Gautam was blamed for the death of an animal and cursed as a result of that."Gautam came here and prayed to the gods. So the River Ganges appeared here in Mandakini's form - a tributary of Ganga. He took a holy bath and found he was free from the curse. Ever since then people have been coming here to wash away their sins," Jagdish Sharma said when relating the rest of the story."When we do our agricultural work, intentionally or unintentionally we kill insects, birds and squirrels which is a sin. So we do penance here," farmer Gajendra Singh says as he plunges into the water.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20668278

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Prem » 05 Feb 2013 04:19

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/02 ... ?mobile=nc
As Tuberculosis Vaccines Flounder, Developing Nations Join To Fight Drug-Resistant Diseases

Five developing nations with high rates of infectious diseases — Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa — have announced they will work collaboratively to fight back against drug-resistant tuberculosis (TB), an epidemic that contributes to hundreds of thousands of deaths around the globe each year.Drug-resistant TB has a fatality rate of about 50 percent. The new international effort to combat it comes on the heels of increasing reports that the epidemic is worsening, including Monday’s news that a highly-anticipated TB vaccine trial — a study of the first new tuberculosis vaccine in 90 years — failed to achieve its desired results. The World Health Organization warns that the rise of TB strains resistant to antibiotic treatment represents a serious global health threat, particularly in developing nations:


( BRICS should rival WEST in the Research and Manufacturing of Medicine)

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 05 Feb 2013 13:17

This raises a very fundamental question whether the government’s in power at the center and states are duty bound to uphold and protect the values enshrined in the constitution at all costs or if it is contingent on factors such as law and order and if so to what extent? Are the fundamental rights spelt out in the constitution subordinate to prevailing or created law and order situations? If that be the premise, with indiscipline and intolerance growing by the day, are we knocking at the door of autocracy in some form or the other sooner than later?


Is our Constitution meant to be Acquiescent to Law and Order

Mentioned earlier here by me, that values enshrined in the constitution are not strong enough. Secularism where 'hurt' by some group specifically if it translates to law and order issues will always predominate as long as Values are given the short stick. The author does raise a similar point but misses out on the fact that the preamble itself dominates and provides a way out to trample on fundamental rights. Similarly parties in power will use tax payer money as dole to buy votes as long as socialism will remain inl the preamble. Very few realize the effect of constitutional power in our daily lives. It all seems so remote.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 05 Feb 2013 23:33

One alarming thing that many have read but not been alerted about, so much so it's slipped completely below the radar of most analysts. On a few occasions we have had senior folks like PC, Sonia, RG other ministers announce loudly something like.."the voice of the people has been heard'. Just yesterday PC announced we have had these amendments in Rape law because of the outrage. Now one may ask what is alarming about it.

While feedback is important, it is outrageous in itself that the leaders have to be barked, snarled, shouted to move a little forward. Moreover the pride with which it is being declared that they have heard the people is nothing short of sheer brazenness. Leaders are supposed to lead. Leaders are supposed to take initiative. It is a shame for leaders to be hounded to action. How many days was it that the GoI woke up to the Rape outrage. What did Akhilesh and UP Ministers do after so many days. To public reaction they offered money to the victims family. NO politician i know was outraged. They only reacted to outrage and made the necessary calculations. Not a single other rape victim was compensated by any politician since the Nirbhaya case. Not one, even though some heinous cases have taken place even after that.

Outrage is also a sign of innocence. The weary only sigh with sadness. When someone blatantly lied to you the first time what you felt was outrage. Or someone cheated you. Or someone violated your space or anything..you felt outrage. When it happens too often one becomes weary and sighs. That is one reason the outrage is mostly confined to a younger and more innocent lot. The older lot that compromise our political class is a weary lot. They have a history of hiding behind setting up meetings, commissions of enquiry, setting up expert committees that go on for years. Outrage? No it will never happen to that lot.

Outrage happens when the state is immune to continual violation and degradation of basic values. It exposes itself at some trigger point. The depravity of the political class stands out at reacting only to loud calls of outrage not at anticipation and checks. There is no constitutional support for the political class too on upholding values. How many times have you heard from GoI bureaucrats/ clerks after running from pillar to post for a simple license/ job..arrey i understand your pain sir, but system hai aisa..kya karein. The system and it's associate institutions lack compassion for the common man and his suffering. It has led to a cold society. Those that have governed and got old into positions of power today have lost all sensitivity to public suffering. They only know how to wield the power structures within this system The irony is that these leaders think that by reacting to the outrage they have done something remarkable. It's actually a shame that they only react to outrage and threats. Even reform measures came about in 91 and last year because of threats.

Our leadership does not act, it reacts only because of threat. It cannot lead, it cannot guide.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby abhishek_sharma » 07 Feb 2013 07:04

Views from the Right

Haasan to Nandy

While the BJP avoided criticising the ban on the screening of Kamal Haasan's Vishwaroopam in Tamil Nadu, fearing it would antagonise Chief Minister J. Jayalalithaa, a cover story in the Organiser does not hesitate to assert that "it is strange that the ban on the movie should come so quickly" by "giving in to fringe elements who don't number more than a few hundreds". While the story focuses on Jayalalithaa's justification, it laments that "when it comes to threats from fringe groups belonging to some minority communities the state prefers to take quick action for the fear of large-scale violence".

The prominently displayed report, in fact, stretches its argument against the banning of Vishwaroopam to highlight the protests against Ashis Nandy's comments about corruption and the inability of writer Salman Rushdie to travel to Kolkata to promote the movie based on Midnight's Children. All of this is part of a trend that "reaffirmed the fact that India as a nation is still to come to grips with the modern ways of thinking that is prevalent in most of the developed world".

The article does not, however, hesitate to punch holes in Haasan's outbursts and Nandy's arguments. It objects to Haasan's threat to do an M.F. Husain, pointing out that even "Salman Rushdie could come and stay in Mumbai..." As for Nandy, the article objects to his alleged contention that West Bengal has been the cleanest state in the last few decades because the Left had been ruling it. It claims that Nandy's argument is "farfetched" because it ignores the "unrelenting corrupt ways and means adopted by the Left government" and so his remarks should be "condemned". The article does not demand his prosecution under the SC/ ST act.

Fearing Kerry

John Kerry's appointment of US secretary of state appears to have got on the nerves of the Sangh Parivar. An editorial in the Organiser says that "Terror as a tool of American duplicity" has been exposed. While the American response to the decapitation of an Indian soldier by Pakistani forces and the denial of David Headley's extradition to India have been used to couch the arguments, it is Kerry's appointment that appears to be the provocation for the saffron camp's harsh reaction.

The editorial, in fact, reminds readers that the newly appointed secretary of state is "the author of the Kerry-Lugar-Berman bill that provided more than USD 7.5 billion in five years to Pakistan" and highlights that it is John Kerry who maintained that "Pakistan 'has not got sufficient credit for its help in getting bin Laden... Kerry is one of the most fervent supporters of Pakistan, sometimes he almost sounds like the Pakistani foreign minister..."

The editorial claims that the Headley case should serve as evidence as to which way "the US would tilt if there is a serious confrontation between India and Pakistan" and consequently it is time India "took a serious call on this issue and showed America the mirror".

"America is nobody's friend. but it is friendlier to all terrorist regimes in the world and inimical to democracies everywhere," the editorial concludes.

Lokpal Blues

The Lokpal, which the government seeks to get approved during the forthcoming budget session of Parliament, has attracted the Sangh Parivar's attention. The editorial in Panchjanya highlights the BJP's "objections" to and Anna Hazare's "disapproval" of the revised proposals as an indicator of the "government's disinterest in providing clean and corruption free governance..."

The editorial objects to the government's decision to not bring the entire CBI under the Lokpal on the pretext of maintaining its autonomy. It also faults the proposal to not grant the Lokpal the last word on the transfer of officers investigating graft cases referred by the Lokpal itself. These two factors, the editorial suggests, will make the Lokpal a "toothless body", which will be nothing but a "betrayal" of the popular demand.

Compiled by Ravish Tiwari

RajeshA
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 07 Feb 2013 15:23

abhishek_sharma wrote:Views from the Right

Fearing Kerry


He He! :D John Kerrorist deserves the name!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 07 Feb 2013 21:45

Desperately looking for nawledge...

RamaY wrote:Erudite gurus,

Sri Gurubhyo Nama:!

Could you please give me a peek into the Indian Interests from a Christian and Islamic perspectives?

If I can get some guidance in this, I may be able to see the light that is glowing in far away deserts after so many tunnels.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby ramana » 07 Feb 2013 22:45

One liner is both want India to serve their global interests.
Islam wants India to provide the weealth and bulk of their converts
Christianity also wants the same.

In both groups there are sub-groups: Sunni Shia and Catholics vs America based Xtians

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby svinayak » 07 Feb 2013 23:33

ramana wrote:One liner is both want India to serve their global interests.
Islam wants India to provide the weealth and bulk of their converts
Christianity also wants the same.

In both groups there are sub-groups: Sunni Shia and Catholics vs America based Xtians


Indian nationalists have to make sure that both of them serve Indian/Hindu interest.
India had too many foreign memes inside and these needs to be Indianized

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Agnimitra » 08 Feb 2013 01:56

Tom Friedman: India vs. China vs. Egypt
The "demographic dividend" is a double-edged sword. Whichever country best uses the youth bulge will win out. Unemployed or under-employed or simply un-developed and un-educated youth will be serious trouble, apart from a historic lost opportunity.

Whether its NaMo or Congress, universal education (rendering reservation quotas redundant) and good industry-linked higher education should be priority #1.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby nawabs » 08 Feb 2013 16:51

Shifted to 2G Thread.
Last edited by nawabs on 08 Feb 2013 17:00, edited 1 time in total.

RajeshA
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 08 Feb 2013 16:57

Acharya wrote:
ramana wrote:One liner is both want India to serve their global interests.
Islam wants India to provide the weealth and bulk of their converts
Christianity also wants the same.

In both groups there are sub-groups: Sunni Shia and Catholics vs America based Xtians


Indian nationalists have to make sure that both of them serve Indian/Hindu interest.
India had too many foreign memes inside and these needs to be Indianized


That is a view that needs to be put out in Indian media. However on BRF, the issue is not if but how!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 08 Feb 2013 18:29

^ By asking the question IMO on key forum in a subtle way. There are many debate programs. The people should ask these questions. Yes it will get them flagged communal but someone should ask the question on right program/platform so it gets debated.

I just started here because even on BRF there are strategists who don't want to answer this question but tell us to work towards foreign interests.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby harbans » 08 Feb 2013 19:07

Why don't you identify Hindu interests on the Bharatiya thread?

RajeshA
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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RajeshA » 08 Feb 2013 19:15

harbans wrote:Why don't you identify Hindu interests on the Bharatiya thread?


There is no difference between Hindu and Bharatiya!

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby devesh » 08 Feb 2013 19:27

^^^
rightly said. finally, somebody has the guts to say it out loud.

if the Hindu and his/her Civilization/culture are not protected in Bharat, then that govt has no legitimacy.

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby RamaY » 08 Feb 2013 19:43

harbans wrote:Why don't you identify Hindu interests on the Bharatiya thread?


Rhetorical question. But I will answer as it might help other readers.

1. Territorial Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that PoK+Aksaichin are reclaimed and controlled by Bharat. It is in Hindu interests to have Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nepal, Tibet, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Burma, Kambodia, Srilanka, Maldives become part of Indian union governed under Bharatiya umbrella so Hindus can visit all their holy places without any issues, fear or external approvals.

2. Civilizational Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that the above mentioned area comes under Bharatiya protection so Hindu civilization can maintain its strength and face the threats from other non-Indic civilizations effectively.

3. Cultural Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that all the blemishes of foreign invasions and colonial rule are removed from its lands and its historical cultural artifacts are rebuilt in higher glory. This will make Bharat stand proud for regaining its cultural symbols

4. Food Security - It is in Hindu interests that every Bharatiya has food security and have no issues related to mal-nutrition.

5. Energy Security - It is in Hindu interests that Bharat has access to necessary energy resources from within and outside so its industrial and economic growth is not hindered

6. Political Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that Bharat writes its constitution completely free of colonial constructs and worldview that can serve only Bharatiya and no other interests

7. Social Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that Bharat develops a governance and social mechanism that would make rule of law equal for all its citizens without any bias.

9. Religious security - It is in Hindu interests that Bharat offers real religious freedom that ensures that religions that do not sanctify the preeminence of Bharatiya constitution and rule-of-law are modified to make the Bharat paramount.

There is no Indian Interest beyond Hindu interest and there is no Hindu interest that conflicts with Indian interests

You want more?

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Re: Indian Interests

Postby Hari Seldon » 08 Feb 2013 20:12

There is no Indian Interest beyond Hindu interest and there is no Hindu interest that conflicts with Indian interests


Satyavachan. However, the dhaga and the forum matters. Harbans may well hv a point.


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