Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Feb 2013 11:01

Jingo guesses:-

Shaurya has 700 km range in hypersonic cruise at 20m with one ton payload

1500-2000 km range in Ballistic profile with one ton payload

2500-3000 km range in Ballistic profile with 500kg payload

Nirbhay first public test will reveal that it has been tested 20 times and is already in production.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Feb 2013 21:58

If its BO-5 or B05 what does B mean and what does 5 imply?
The K series was supposed to be Kalam.

Or is it BO for Obama?

Like the code name for S-1 shaft was White House.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Feb 2013 23:30

D Roy wrote:Yes really.

Their peer affiliation - a common techno-scientific endeavour for India's strategic security.

Their macro affiliation - Indian.

Their *really* isn't any need or scope for identifying any other "ethnic markers" in that event.

And if you are indeed an Indian you will understand this standpoint and not regard it as a counterpoint to the unity in diversity argument.

It is time the Indian grew out of the British taxonomical agenda.

Well said sir!!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 04 Feb 2013 00:43

The British taxonomic system? Varna? Perhaps that is more palatable.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Feb 2013 01:14

By varna in its purest form, all of the people there are of the same varna irrespective of what they were born as.

What roy meant is simple - don't spilt hairs over the people in the video by claiming different ethnicities etc. Thats a long con the Brits pulled on us and which we continue to perpetuate. We all are Indian, irrespective of the minor differences in our appearances, regional accents or clothing. The Brits used that to perpetuate a claim of entirely different ethnic groups. Post independence, to run down the divide and rule, we came up with unity in diversity stuff. What roy is stating is that we should now move beyond that and merely stress the Indian angle..which i agree with.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Feb 2013 01:22

yes, and thanks to IA to not consider regiments based on varnas or sects. we should think about rename and merge.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 04 Feb 2013 02:15

BO-5 could be Bharat Orbit - 5(pakis,nepal,sri lanka,bangladesh,afghan)

Just guessing...

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Feb 2013 02:40

NDTV folks have been treated like a 4year old kid by the DRDO-IN combine; hardly any useful footage or info there

. Can't imagine the pain editor must have gone through to combine clips of Astute, Ohio class, Foxtrot and a glimpse of Arihant to make the whole video.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 04 Feb 2013 03:10

They might have moved from A (Agni) series to B series (totally secular

) as a technology generation and 05 might be the developmental iteration, the C series might be for cruise missiles

The versions that get field deployed might get actual names such as Nirbhay or K-15

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Feb 2013 03:47

why the pref only to undietv?

siddharth · Post by **siddharth** » 04 Feb 2013 08:22

In the NDTV report, Pallav Bhargav said that they sailed for a few hours before reaching the launch site. I got a nubie question - Is the test site in Indian territorial waters?

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Feb 2013 08:45

SaiK wrote:why the pref only to undietv?

Call from PMO to have the official GoI/INC channel to show the good news?

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 04 Feb 2013 08:47

sum wrote:
SaiK wrote:why the pref only to undietv?
Call from PMO to have the official GoI/INC channel to show the good news?

I thought DD was the National channel.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Feb 2013 08:50

^^ Should have clarified with the correct title: "official private channel of GoI/INC/UPA-2"

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 04 Feb 2013 11:42

siddharth wrote:In the NDTV report, Pallav Bhargav said that they sailed for a few hours before reaching the launch site. I got a nubie question - Is the test site in Indian territorial waters?

His name is Pallava Bagla.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?283764

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Feb 2013 18:24

A Nice paper on Akash SAM program from AeroIndia 2013

Challenges in design, development, system integration, testing, evaluation and production of Surface to Air Tactical Missile system Akash

sarabpal.s · Post by **sarabpal.s** » 04 Feb 2013 18:48

According to Above doc provided by Austin now Akash missile launcher will be mounted on Tatra trucks.

nash · Post by **nash** » 04 Feb 2013 23:23

Agni-VI all set to take shape

why for every 1K Km we are developing one new missile or Agni-V would be a TD if GoI give green signal to Agni-VI.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 04 Feb 2013 23:53

nash wrote:Agni-VI all set to take shape

why for every 1K Km we are developing one new missile or Agni-V would be a TD if GoI give green signal to Agni-VI.

^^
Its just Agni-V with MirV capability.
I seriously want to see a silo launch of Agni series missile with MirV warhead. Its one of my wet jingo dream.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 05 Feb 2013 00:34

It certainly seems like getting MIRV capability is of a greater priority than improving range by creating all-composite stages and reducing weight. Assuming all published data to be true

, at 65-70 tons, the Agni VI will be considerably heavier than the Minuteman-III or the Topol-M. The Topol-M will prove to be 2.7 m longer and 18 to 23 tons lighter than the Agni-VI. The diameters are very similar with the Agni V/VI only being 10 cm wider.

How does that much of a weight difference creep in? Are they including the canister weight?

Borrowing Shiv ji's pisko hat and Arun_S' favorite word - obfuscation, I think the SDREs are going to intentionally demonstrate a short range by letting the obfuscated weight be the scapegoat for the short range. This baby might go all the way onlee.

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 05 Feb 2013 00:52

SagarAg wrote:
nash wrote:Agni-VI all set to take shape

why for every 1K Km we are developing one new missile or Agni-V would be a TD if GoI give green signal to Agni-VI.
^^
Its just Agni-V with MirV capability.
I seriously want to see a silo launch of Agni series missile with MirV warhead. Its one of my wet jingo dream.

Not going to happen. What you will see is a tube launch from a tatra of the A-5/6 soon.

Silos invite first strike

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2013 00:54

i think he meant canister instead of silos. but in either case, it is a requirement.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Feb 2013 01:01

PratikDas wrote:It certainly seems like getting MIRV capability is of a greater priority than improving range by creating all-composite stages and reducing weight. Assuming all published data to be true , at 65-70 tons, the Agni VI will be considerably heavier than the Minuteman-III or the Topol-M. The Topol-M will prove to be 2.7 m longer and 18 to 23 tons lighter than the Agni-VI. The diameters are very similar with the Agni V/VI only being 10 cm wider.

How does that much of a weight difference creep in? Are they including the canister weight?

Borrowing Shiv ji's pisko hat and Arun_S' favorite word - obfuscation, I think the SDREs are going to intentionally demonstrate a short range by letting the obfuscated weight be the scapegoat for the short range. This baby might go all the way onlee.

I agree. This could be a far reaching heavy knockout class. We also need a quick boost phase so that it isn't intercepted by laser and missile systems similar to the rs-24. Our thermonuclear capability will have to be validated and we should look into our options if North Korea decided to test (validate) their (chinese/pakistani) capability.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2013 02:03

nash wrote:Agni-VI all set to take shape

why for every 1K Km we are developing one new missile or Agni-V would be a TD if GoI give green signal to Agni-VI.

Full text so we can understand the comments:

Agni-VI all set to take shape

T. S. Subramanian
The Hindu

In this April 19, 2012 file photo, Agni-V on its launch pad at the Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast. The Defence Research and Development Organisation is developing Agni-VI with multiple nuclear warheads, which can reach targets 6,000 km away. Photo: V.V.Krishnan

It can deliver four or six warheads 6,000 km away

Agni-VI with multiple nuclear warheads, which can reach targets 6,000 km away, is all set to be developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Only in April last, it carried out the maiden launch of Agni-V, which has a range of more than 5,000 km.

So far, all the strategic missiles developed by the DRDO — Agni-I, II, III, IV and V, and the submarine-launched K-15 and its land-based version Shourya — can carry only single nuclear warhead. The DRDO’s tactical missiles and supersonic cruise missile BrahMos can carry one conventional warhead each.

“We have started working on the multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles [MIRV] version [Agni-VI]. It will carry four or six warheads depending upon their weight,” DRDO missile technologists said. “The constraint is the vehicle’s mass.”

Although the Union government is yet to sanction Agni-VI project, the DRDO has done all the enabling studies, finalised the missile’s design and started working on the engineering part. It had also figured out how to anchor four or six warheads in the vehicle, how to disperse them and the pattern of their dispersal. The warheads could be released in an order, one after another. If one warhead were to hit a place, another could fall 100 km away from it, the technologists said.

{Lots of info in th para. The engineering devleopment has started. The proto-types are comlete and being incorporated in the engineering. The payload is four-six. Most likely four heavy and six lighter versions. There is a post boost control bus system that can disperse the payloads. There is a sequence to the dispersion. Doesn't clarify if its cross range or straight range of 100km dispersion. Could be the lesser of the two being quoted.}

Both Agni-V and Agni-VI have three stages, all powered by solid propellants, and their diameter is two metres. And the comparison ends there.

While Agni-V weighs 50 tonnes and is 17.5 metres long, Agni-VI belongs to the 65-70-tonne class and will be 20 metres long. “Agni-VI will be a massive vehicle,” the technologists said. It was too early to say when its first launch would take place. It would be road-mobile and blast off from trucks with launching platforms.

Keywords: India's defence programme, DRDO, Agni-VI launch, nuclear warheads

The front end is quite heavy hence the throw weight is also heavier accounting for the total gross weight of 65-70 tonnes. Extra length of 2.5 m could be for the bus to launch the payloads. All the stages are common to A-V which is why this version will be heavier.
Dont know if they need that conical motor for this vehicle.

Most likely this vehicle will be optimized later.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2013 02:27

just energizing the MIRV discussions from last years link post a5 success.

not sure from where they got this mirv scheme?

http://www.bharatdefencekavach.com/News ... aswat.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2013 02:29

Maybe the US. Popular Science type magazine.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2013 07:33

Agni5 current design is too costly a missile to 'waste' with just 1 warhead esp because we do not have city busting 5MT old school warhead to tip it with. MIRV is the way to go for volume production and I see the A5 as just a TD for the A6 technologies and will not be mass produced.
the conical motor will go away to be replaced with a cylinder motor to push the much heavier bus and payload section ... the 1st stage & 2nd stage might be longer for a faster burning propellant to speed up the boost phase.

I would take the weight figure as just a FUD thing. a 70t missile + steel cansister + the huge TEL will run into the same logistic issues as the much maligned 60t arjun

a lot of bridges in indian secondary roads are rated upto 70t only. the additional warhead and bigger bus will barely add 3tons and the new 3rd stage maybe another 2t.

maybe the missile will also be fatter like 2.4m - short and fat is good for road mobile ICBMs.

also going composite casing for all stages is a must to reduce weight.
the steel cylinder and structural parts of TEL could be replaced with titanium maybe to reduce weight. since we are unlikely to ever keep more than 100 of these heavies on active duty at anytime, cost is really not a criteria here.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Feb 2013 08:57

Agni-VI was expected to be both MIRV & MaRV capable.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2013 09:30

for non indic maneuverable walas, any data as to what would be the maximum radius covered (ground target), from the center point of reentry? i am sure khans or russkies have done enough of these tests.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2013 09:53

afaik in old mirv icbm(1970-80s) the bus will have some small thrusters to manouver at edge of space and drop the individual unpowered RVs. it was claimed this small side thrusts would make the RVs drop upto 200km left or right of the path described by the "bus"

a departed (from BR) missile guru was saying that is all gone now and each RV has its own thrusters and is a MARV now on its own...ie no smart centralized bus, the smartness has migrated to the RVs(MARV) ..each one will manouver using hot or cold X-thrusters and powered upper-atmospheric flight to complicate the matter for ABM interceptors.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Feb 2013 09:58

This MIRV release is a complex tech challange.
If people go through how the US's Trident releases its MIRV's from their holder, and how the assembly spins and flips etc etc,
It seems to be a quite complex and high precision op.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Feb 2013 10:02

Posting this image from Wiki chacha.
If the range claim is true, the only additional countries that the A 6 is covering is South Africa, Australia, Queendom, Le France', Liberia, Nigeria etc etc
It strategically omits the US mainland.

A case of being very chankiyan hain ji?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2013 10:03

yes indeed. the old nokia 1110 approach vs the new note2 complexity are light yrs apart. we need to take into account all current & projected ABM issues just as Rus did with bulava and topol-m. ablative ceramic heatshields perhaps to survive both Reentry heat and lasers. Spinning will also ensure no single area will be overheated by laser attacks and also stabilize the missile.

wiki:
According to Russia the missile is designed to be immune to any current or planned U.S. missile defense system.[19] It is claimed to be capable of making evasive maneuvers to avoid a kill by terminal phase interceptors, and carries targeting countermeasures and decoys. It is shielded against radiation, EMP, nuclear explosions at distances over 500 meters, and is designed to survive a hit from any laser technology.[20]

One of the Topol-M's most notable features is its short engine burn time following take-off, intended to minimize satellite detection of launches and thereby complicate both early warning and interception by missile defense systems during boost phase. The missile also has a relatively flat ballistic trajectory, complicating defense acquisition and interception.[21]

According to The Washington Times, Russia has conducted a successful test of the evasive payload delivery system.[22] The missile was launched on November 1, 2005 from the Kapustin Yar facility. The warhead changed course after separating from the launcher, making it difficult to predict a re-entry trajectory.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... 514-2217r/

Russia recently conducted a flight test of a new warhead that can change course in midflight, which U.S. and Russian officials are calling part of Moscow’s efforts to defeat U.S. missile defenses.

The warhead was tested Nov. 1 and tracked by U.S. intelligence technical monitors, including satellites, the officials said.
An analysis of the flight test by U.S. intelligence agencies revealed that it was a further test of a maneuverable warhead that Moscow has been developing for several years in response to U.S. missile defenses.

The warhead was flight tested on a Russian Topol-M missile, designated by the Pentagon the SS-27, that flew from the Kapustin Yar launch complex in southern Russia near Volgograd.

The missile booster fired for a shorter-than-usual duration in placing the dummy warhead and re-entry vehicle into space. The warhead then dropped down to a lower trajectory and was able to maneuver.

Kremlin officials were quoted in Russian press reports as saying the new warhead was designed to thwart the new U.S. missile-defense system of interceptors deployed in Alaska and California.

U.S. officials confirmed some characteristics of the new missile warhead based on an analysis of the Nov. 1 flight test, which was first reported earlier this month by several Russian news organizations.

Unlike current ballistic warheads that do not alter their flight paths sharply once they reach space, the new warhead can change course and range while traveling at speeds estimated at about 3 miles per second, the officials said.

Maneuvering warheads represents a difficult physics challenge because changing course at such high speeds normally would cause a warhead to disintegrate.

Maneuverability would let a warhead thwart missile defenses, because such countermeasures rely on sensors to project a warhead’s flight path and impact point so that an interceptor missile can be guided to the right spot to knock out a warhead.

Rick Lehner, a spokesman for the Pentagon’s Missile Defense Agency (MDA), declined to comment on U.S. intelligence assessments of the latest Russian warhead test because data is classified.

But Mr. Lehner would say that U.S. missile defenses aim to counter a limited number of warheads from a small nuclear power such as North Korea, not a major strike from a nation with hundreds of missiles, such as Russia.

However, Moscow believes future U.S. defenses, including plans to deploy anti-missile interceptors in Europe or the East Coast of the United States, could be used against Russian strategic missiles.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said a year ago that the new strategic-missile system “will have no analogues,” a reference to the hypersonic warhead.

Meanwhile, the Pentagon announced yesterday the Navy’s Aegis missile-defense system conducted the sixth successful test of an anti-missile interceptor hitting a target warhead.

It was the first time that a ship-based SM-3 interceptor missile hit a warhead that had been separated from its booster, the MDA said in a statement. The test was carried out near Hawaii from the Aegis-equipped cruiser USS Lake Erie.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2013 10:07

we have enough range & payload now with 5000km and 1t payload. new focus areas
- reducing size and weight
- all composite stages - reduce weight
- higher 1st stage speed
- shorter burn times
- MIRV & MARV
- some kind of active/passive sensor to detect incoming interceptors and deploy countermeasures or thrusters
- upper atmospheric shourya style moves at higher speeds

nash · Post by **nash** » 05 Feb 2013 10:15

SSridhar wrote:Agni-VI was expected to be both MIRV & MaRV capable.

Agni-VI with MIRV, MaRv, canister launch, etc will also help us to get the K-5 with official range of 6K , but if we consider dimension, as people have done here, then it might possible the range could be around 9-10k, and this seem viable to K-5.
also time line of development seems to be in-sync, i would say or wish:

Arihant-1,2,3 : K-15,k-4(12 or 4-8)
Arihant-4,5 : K-5(12)

With 4 bigger one or 6 smaller one this will form a formidable II strike capability.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Feb 2013 10:25

Austin wrote:A Nice paper on Akash SAM program from AeroIndia 2013

Challenges in design, development, system integration, testing, evaluation and production of Surface to Air Tactical Missile system Akash

Lots of details! Worth reading.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Feb 2013 13:46

Gagan wrote:This MIRV release is a complex tech challange.
If people go through how the US's Trident releases its MIRV's from their holder, and how the assembly spins and flips etc etc,
It seems to be a quite complex and high precision op.

Yes it is. It is very similar to the injection of multiple satellites into orbit in a single launch.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Feb 2013 14:20

^^ But given that we have been there, done that for the multiple satellite launch, think that we already have a good enough base and just minor finishing is required.

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 05 Feb 2013 14:58

mirv development is underway since 8+ years, my guess is most of the unit testing will be over and now the preparations will be going on for final verification vis a vis live missile fire. They may call it A6.

As far as range is concerned even A5 is capable of reaching beyond 6K, so A6 should necessarily mean 6000 km is not valid imo.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2013 15:01

biggest challenges now seems to be compact 10-12m length packaging and composite 1st stage motor for K4. this will make it fit inside arihant and reduce weight.
it will mean a new 'sub caliber' 3rd stage around which the warheads will be kept like petals of flower.

K6 from land will be our SS18 type thing - big. superfast. brawn. ugly. hairy and russian in looks.
K4 from water will be the sdre sharp chankian knife in the back / gaboon viper - smaller but deadly .