Phone, Tablet and Gizmo Thread #0x02

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 07 Feb 2013 23:15

anmol wrote:
nachiket wrote:The problem is you can't really give this explanation to the consumers. When they go to buy a 64GB tablet only to be told that they can use only 23GB of it and will have to rely on USB drives, SD cards, SkyDrive etc., it is a turn-off. And this will hurt sales, no matter what anyone says, especially since the Surface Pro is already quite expensive.
Exactly, that is why it is a bad marketing decision.

Its not the Recovery partition that's the biggest space-hog though. From what I've read removing the recovery partition on a 64GB Surface Pro clears up about 8GB additional space. So that increases the available space from 23 to 31GB. That is still nowhere close to the 55+GB you get in an iPad. The additional space used up in the Surface Pro is due to the full desktop version of Win 8, unlike the Tablet/Phone only iOS and Android. There is no solution for this, as it was a deliberate decision by M$ to combine the two.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Feb 2013 23:20

nachiket wrote: Its not the Recovery partition that's the biggest space-hog though. From what I've read removing the recovery partition on a 64GB Surface Pro clears up about 8GB additional space. So that increases the available space from 23 to 31GB.

From the Reddit AMA the free storage with recovery partition is ~30GB so removing the partition will make it 38GB. One thing Mickey must do is put the idea in user's head to store their pics/videos/mp3 collection in the SkyDrive - that is typically the biggest space hog for most mango users (non-geek types). This also gives them a chance to show the SkyDrive integration in the OS. I am actually quite impressed how well it works despite some holes...makes me wonder what exactly is DropBox or Box's plan here to survive?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 07 Feb 2013 23:23

Raja Bose wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:^^^You can lose an OS disc as well.
What disc? Its on a separate partition on the internal SSD. Yes, Time machine does work pretty well though it was developed in Amelio's time rather than the Mahdi's - so no credit for Mahdi!

When you buy a Mac with an optical drive you get a DVD with OS. Macs without it get a USB stick. With the Windows OEMs you got a partition on the SSD, but in the past you got the OS disc and driver disc. With Windows OEMs, if your HDD had a catastrophic mechanical failure, you are hosed unless you made an image of the HDD or OS which is not easy since you have to go out and buy a file back up application that was not easy to use. With Apple it is included with the OS and easy to use. You finally now get that with Windows 8.

I don't know whether it was Amelio who pushed development of Time Machine or not. It came out with OS X 10.5 Leopard and long after Amelio left in 1997. Mahdi had his hands in it and gets the credit.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Feb 2013 23:56

They stopped selling Windoze on disks - CDROM drives may soon go the way of floppy drives. Between USB stick and having the partition on SSD, the latter is better since you can lose the USB stick much more easily.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 07 Feb 2013 23:59

nachiket wrote:Its not the Recovery partition that's the biggest space-hog though. From what I've read removing the recovery partition on a 64GB Surface Pro clears up about 8GB additional space. So that increases the available space from 23 to 31GB. That is still nowhere close to the 55+GB you get in an iPad. The additional space used up in the Surface Pro is due to the full desktop version of Win 8, unlike the Tablet/Phone only iOS and Android. There is no solution for this, as it was a deliberate decision by M$ to combine the two.

What RajaBoseJi said, many tech journalists were exaggerating the issue. As I said in post above, OS is taking around ~10 GB + Apps like Office + paging file and hibernation file for 4GB ram.

10 GBs for a x86_64 bit OS like Windows is not too much. On windows you can plugin any Windows compatible hardware and it would mostly work, otherwise you can install driver. Windows itself is getting updates all the time, one can also download drivers for hardware and install that easily.

Because the way iOS and Android are, we cant update any driver on our own. Imagine PowerVR or AMD releasing updates that improves performance, in case of iOS and Android one would wait. OTOH in case of Windows one don't have to wait.

For OS itself we have to wait for OEM or Apple to release the update, in case of Android such an update many never come or may come in years.

Nor can we plug in just any hardware and it would work.

That is advantage and disadvantage for both designs, IMVHO anything that does not get updated immediately when updates are available.. is a horrible idea.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 08 Feb 2013 00:07

HP came out with a press release "Oh dell is going private? Come to us!! We won't screw our customers!! " and now M$ does the gmail thing. Not sure who advises these companies on media strategies.

Despite having eons of lead in the browser and email service, M$ browser share and email share has fallen. If this isn't a testament to shitty products, I am not sure what is. Outlook.com is what hotmail should have been. That too many years back. They are still building it out. Clicking on calendar still puts people in the shitty hotmail ui.

Competition is good for everyone, including the user. Am not sure how much negative advertising is though. Atleast they could have made it creative and humorous like the Mac vs PC campaign.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Feb 2013 00:10

Anujan wrote:HP came out with a press release "Oh dell is going private? Come to us!! We won't screw our customers!! " and now M$ does the gmail thing. Not sure who advises these companies on media strategies.

Despite having eons of lead in the browser and email service, M$ browser share and email share has fallen. If this isn't a testament to shitty products, I am not sure what is. Competition is good for everyone, including the user. Am not sure how much negative advertising is though. Atleast they could have made it creative and humorous like the Mac vs PC campaign.

http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... s-decline/

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 08 Feb 2013 00:14

M$ koolaid much?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Feb 2013 00:18

Because the way iOS and Android are, we cant update any driver on our own. Imagine PowerVR or AMD releasing updates that improves performance, in case of iOS and Android one would wait. OTOH in case of Windows one don't have to wait.

This is a consideration important for PC/Mac users than tablet users IMHO. All the apps/games available on iPads are tested on the current version of the OS to see if they work flawlessly. So not getting driver updates is not really going to make a difference. In Android the case is complicated because of multiple OS versions and hardware which brings more problems. Still for the Nexus 10 the situation shouldn't be too different than the iPad. At least I, have never seen anyone complaining about driver issues in iPads till now.
I suppose since the Surface is also competing against PCs, this is a plus point.

For OS itself we have to wait for OEM or Apple to release the update, in case of Android such an update many never come or may come in years.

Forgive my ignorance but how is Apple releasing OS updates different from M$ releasing Win 8 updates? And looking at the problems Windows updates have caused on my laptops in the past, I can't say I'd be looking forward to getting them on a Surface.
Android updates are the most effed up of all and the Surface will be better definitely. Still the Nexus 10 shouldn't have any issues. It's only when the manufacturers tinker with the OS that the updates get messed up (or never arrive).

Nor can we plug in just any hardware and it would work.

Agreed. Biggest advantage of a Surface. You can connect anything to the USB port which you would be able to on a PC.

That is advantage and disadvantage for both designs, IMVHO anything that does not get updated immediately when updates are available.. is a horrible idea.

Update problem applies to Android (non-nexus) devices only. iPad doesn't suffer from it. So Surface doesn't score any extra points over it.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Feb 2013 00:39

Raja Bose wrote:They stopped selling Windoze on disks - CDROM drives may soon go the way of floppy drives. Between USB stick and having the partition on SSD, the latter is better since you can lose the USB stick much more easily.

Losing the USB stick is a weak argument. Apple doesn't partition its HDD/SSD for OS back up since the idea is to use time machine from the beginning, and if you don't have that you have the USB stick, or down load option.
OS X has a small foot print and can fit in about 7-8 GB.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Feb 2013 00:47

nachiket wrote:Update problem applies to Android (non-nexus) devices only. iPad doesn't suffer from it. So Surface doesn't score any extra points over it.

Samsung is actually getting very good about updates via Kies and pushing it to the carriers. So, there are two ways to update Samsung Android phones - over the air and Kies.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Feb 2013 00:48

nachiket wrote:This is a consideration important for PC/Mac users than tablet users IMHO. All the apps/games available on iPads are tested on the current version of the OS to see if they work flawlessly. So not getting driver updates is not really going to make a difference. In Android the case is complicated because of multiple OS versions and hardware which brings more problems. Still for the Nexus 10 the situation shouldn't be too different than the iPad. At least I, have never seen anyone complaining about driver issues in iPads till now.
I suppose since the Surface is also competing against PCs, this is a plus point.

Because people expect these things to remain just same.. and not improve. Even if there is a security update for something critical in OS or as I mentioned some hardware update that fixes or improves things.. in case of Windows because of its nature(and hence larger disk footprint) Windows Update would automatically install all the latest updates.. and one can install any new update to driver from hardware makers site.

I have experienced this issue with Android, where if some new driver is released... one cannot just expect that to be on the device. One may have to long time, and it is possible that it may never come. Though I don't know whether Apples takes everything latest and pushes that to next version of iOS.

nachiket wrote:Forgive my ignorance but how is Apple releasing OS updates different from M$ releasing Win 8 updates? And looking at the problems Windows updates have caused on my laptops in the past, I can't say I'd be looking forward to getting them on a Surface.
Android updates are the most effed up of all and the Surface will be better definitely. Still the Nexus 10 shouldn't have any issues. It's only when the manufacturers tinker with the OS that the updates get messed up (or never arrive).

Huge difference, for example if a vulnerability is found with IE and Webkit.. it would be available in next few days in Windows Updates whereas in case of iOS and Android it would take LONG time. Another example is related to Surface, it had some audio related bug... they have released update for that and I guess that have fixed the issue.

nachiket wrote:Update problem applies to Android (non-nexus) devices only. iPad doesn't suffer from it. So Surface doesn't score any extra points over it.

Both suffer from this issue as both get updates in months(or years or never), whereas there are update almost every week for Windows.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Feb 2013 01:04

anmol wrote:Huge difference, for example if a vulnerability is found with IE and Webkit.. it would be available in next few days in Windows Updates whereas in case of iOS and Android it would take LONG time. Another example is related to Surface, it had some audio related bug... they have released update for that and I guess that have fixed the issue.

You should be comparing Windows 8 to OS X, and perhaps Linux. Anytime there has been an issue with OS X, it has been resolved quickly. There are updates for Windows so frequently because there is a vast amount of hardware compatible with it. If you look at OS X, it is only available for the iMac, Mac Pro, MBP/MBA, and Mac Mini. If you look at iOS, it only works on the iPad, iPhone, iPod Touch, and Apple TV. The hardware subset is much smaller than Windows and less need for frequent updates. Pros and cons each way, but I would rather not spend my time on IT since I find it boring and would rather spend time doing other things.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Feb 2013 02:19

Smartphone operating systems: The rise of Android, the fall of Windows

As for Windows 8 Phone, stick a fork in it, it's done. BlackBerry is going to continue its decline. If there's going to be a number three smartphone platform with some life to it, I see it coming from the various Linux distributions giving the smartphone a try. The new and coming contenders for third place in 2013 will be Firefox OS, Sailfish OS, Tizen, and Ubuntu.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 08 Feb 2013 02:21

anmol wrote:Exactly, that is why it is a bad marketing decision.

The only way to fix it is to lower the prices which, as RB already detailed, is not possible for M$ to do at this point. So how do they fix it?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 08 Feb 2013 02:33

Firefox OS, Sailfish OS, Tizen, and Ubuntu.

IMHO, that is a remote possibility. I think it would be M$ even with its declining mkt share once BB goes past M$ on its way down. The mkt share will be picked up by the current top two.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 08 Feb 2013 02:49

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Feb 2013 02:57

Worst thing about Windows updates is getting the message "Failed to Configure update" on system restart, after which your computer may end up in a infinite loop of rebooting and "Configuring updates". You can get out of it using System restore and checkpoints, but the only way to stop it from happening again is to turn the automatic updates off. Win 8 is a "slight" improvement, in that it doesn't go into an infinite loop but gives up after a few tries.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 08 Feb 2013 03:06

Yeah, could never figure out how to fix that one. Just turned off updates in disgust.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Feb 2013 03:12

^^^I just keep doing it in loops until it finally configures, which it does after 4-6 hours. In the mean time, I work on my Mac Book Pro using OS X.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 08 Feb 2013 04:49

Mort Walker wrote:Smartphone operating systems: The rise of Android, the fall of Windows

Is it the installed base or sales during the 12 week period? comScore might be counting Windows Mobile and Windows Phone together. Windows Mobile had a significant user base which is getting eroded over the last few years as people move to other OSes. Windows Phone is not getting adopted as quickly as loss of the Windows Mobile users. So there is a net loss for M$. But if you only count Windows Phone, it might be increasing slightly. Its not exactly doing good in the US, but is doing well in some countries in Europe (like in Italy).

According to statcounter, Windows Phone share is 1.15 in January, even less than the 2.9 (probably Windows Mobile + Windows Phone) given by comScore.

Kantar world panel reports mobile sales rather than installed base. So its gives a more current snapshot.

http://www.kantarworldpanel.com/global/ ... ean-growth

Smartphone OS sales

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Feb 2013 06:06

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2013 06:43

thats the mighty optimus G pro the kdx3 of current phones - currently on offer for korea only
http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/07/lg-o ... a-55-inch/

5.5-inch 1080p display, as well as getting a battery bump-up to 3,140mAh. According to the leaked spec sheet sent to Phone Arena, this will join a 1.7GHz Snapdragon processor, alongside a healthy 2GB of RAM and a whopping 32GB of storage -- plus microSD expansion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2013 07:18

Bangalore: BlackBerry will stop selling smartphones in Japan, partly because the company cannot justify the cost of modifying its operating system to accommodate the Japanese language, the Nikkei business daily reported.
BlackBerry's market share in Japan has shrunk to 0.3 percent from 5 per cent, the daily said.
BlackBerry could not be immediately reached for comment.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Feb 2013 07:40

I think the only people I know buying BB phones are in desh. A variety of relatives have gotten one recently. I'm not sure what the rationale is, but many lower middle class folks who have smart phones in desh will use their phone as a substitute for actually using a laptop/desktop. Hopefully tablets or the Surface type convergence device can come down in price for these masses. They ain't gonna spend $1100 USD on the Surface Pro or MBA.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Feb 2013 08:03

Mort Walker wrote: Losing the USB stick is a weak argument.

Really, you think so? Think again (or ask the IT managers who pulled their hair out or heck, ask my mom

). In fact compared to a USB key, a box package with a recovery CD/DVD turns out to be much safer but software is no longer going to retail on discs any more so that option is out.

Mort Walker wrote:Smartphone operating systems: The rise of Android, the fall of Windows

As for Windows 8 Phone, stick a fork in it, it's done. BlackBerry is going to continue its decline. If there's going to be a number three smartphone platform with some life to it, I see it coming from the various Linux distributions giving the smartphone a try. The new and coming contenders for third place in 2013 will be Firefox OS, Sailfish OS, Tizen, and Ubuntu.

The only one with any inkling of chance is Tizen - rest don't stand any chance. Sammy now follows an interesting pattern since 2012 - for a lot of its differentiating apps it introduces them to its own app store rather than Google Play. Mobile platform domination (or any platform domination) is not driven by technology but by business deals and the leverage the vendor has - the guy who wrote the article probably forgot that reality.

AFAIK comscore includes existing install base hence, the stats are a bit misleading if one is looking to chart platform growth in cases where same vendor has a legacy and a new platform but less than 100% switch-over rate.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Feb 2013 08:20

affice ka BB battery sucks! But I like the reception and signal to noise on the device.. inside affice I can receive calls, but on the personal iphone4-wa(two side effect: lost android OS, and kids keep playing with it!), a big no!, i have to step out.. except chat., and even that very often it doesn't deliver. it is a big heavy weight show & game piece. works well if you have good pyts around to show rob.bin.vibration mode receptions.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 08 Feb 2013 09:48

I asked in nukkad but kinda got lost in the crowd. Anyone here use a gopro? I want to use it mainly underwater but its kinda neat and at $200 doesn't break the bank either.

Anyone got their nexus 4 yet? After the stocks came back online I mean, not earlier.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 08 Feb 2013 09:49

Fruitco actually posted a message on their website addressing the "give me your money " keruffle from einhorn (same fella who predicted fruitco will be 1 trillion $ by now )

Wall street types are parasites. If they don't like the company why dont they dump the shares? What is wrong in fruitco hording cash and using it when it is most needed (acquisition in short notice or locking up supplies ). Instead the wall street types are focused at short term profit so they can take their money and go suck someone else's blood.

Mahdi would have given them the treatment they deserve. Bawarchi is deferential.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 08 Feb 2013 10:29

And, IMO, Mahdi would be wrong.
~$137B cash is extremely difficult to defend especially in the low interest rate regime or currency war situations. If the company can't put the money to good use (investment in growth), investors have right to ask for distribution and/or share buyback.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Feb 2013 11:06

Anujan wrote: Instead the wall street types are focused at short term profit so they can take their money and go suck someone else's blood.

Well all investors (including retail investors) are in it for the money and nobody is going to live infinitely long. So they will demand return on their investment as fast as possible. Wall Street types ofcourse are as myopic and bloodsucking parasites as they get but that's a separate issue. In fact as Chacha's cash hoard increases they will get pressure to do a proper dividend. BTW whatever happened to their its-a-stock-split-but-not-a-split-and-its-sorta-dividend-but-not-a-dividend move? They shouldn't have had a problem with getting the resolution passed given the 3 hold majority.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 08 Feb 2013 11:33

I agree and appreciate the fact that investors are in it for the money. But there is an inherent risk: The company might do badly, or not do things that the investors want. This is the risk. The reward though is that, you make a single decision of investing the money. Sit back as other people do the hard work and fatten your money. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me: Investors dont pull all nighters writing code, they dont design products or strategies, sign sales agreement, recruit 14 year olds in China to assemble products nor slap on pictures of smiling people on the products and sell them. This is the risk-reward tradeoff. People invest knowing this risk-reward scenario and with their eyes open.

The fundamental issue I have is the assumption that the shareholders want the best for the company. Long-term shareholders desire the best for the company, not short term shareholders and fellas like Einhorn (whose hedge fund didnt do all that well this year and thats his basic takleef). People who work for the company (not the golden parachute Fiorina types) are the ones who really want the best for the company, because they are either risking their jobs & bread or have emotional investment in the company (like the founders. Mahdi is a good example).

Einhorn is actually suing FruitCo demanding a dividend! What kind of Gyaan does he possesses that FruitCo executives and board dont, about what is good for the company?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Feb 2013 12:00

I am surprised that Carl Icahn hasn't jumped in the fray yet?! The truth is that 99.99% investors who are not employees of the company or related to the founders (thru friendship or marriage or blood relations) will care 1st about their invested money and what they get in return asap and then if they so desire about welfare of the company. That is human nature. Think of the investors as blood sucking baniyas who have lent you money to finance your paan shop - do they care about the welfare of you or your family? The risk is they have invested their money (so financial equity as opposed to sweat equity of worker bees). They demand the reward for that risk and they want it yesterday!

Financial equity is always considered soup-e-rear than sweat equity - don't ask me why. There is no goodwill involved here - it is purely a business transaction in the mold of Shylock. There is a reason Mickey actively ensures that its stock price remains stable within a range.

GB got sued in a similar fashion in 2011.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 08 Feb 2013 13:23

Lets say I was working on a file on my MS Win 8 machine. As soon as I finish working on it, it would be awesome if I could see the updated version on my win 8 phone.

Then, in Delhi metro, I work on it on my phone. As soon as I get home, I see the updated version on my PC.

How can this happen? Skydrive?

Is this the killer feature that Win phone 8 is waiting for with bated breath? If so, why havent they thought of it earlier?

chandrasekaran · Post by **chandrasekaran** » 08 Feb 2013 13:28

mahadevbhu wrote:Lets say I was working on a file on my MS Win 8 machine. As soon as I finish working on it, it would be awesome if I could see the updated version on my win 8 phone.

This works in google drive/google docs.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Feb 2013 13:29

It turns out that the MacBook Air actually comes with lesser storage space than the Microsoft Surface Pro

Apparently Fruit Co made a deliberate decision to report disk sizes differently (instead of as a power of 2)....I smell the hand of Mahdi here.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 08 Feb 2013 14:42

Just wondering what would happen if we were to let one of those google or continental self drive cars loose on Indians roads. I think the software on these cars is tightly bound to western lane based rules and schemes and would terrible fail in even say Mexico.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Feb 2013 17:12

Apparently Fruit Co made a deliberate decision to report disk sizes differently (instead of as a power of 2)....I smell the hand of Mahdi here.

No, it has to do with iLife applications taking up space such as iPhoto, iMovie, and Garage Band. There is also iTunes, iCal, and Address Book. These apps are useful to many people and if you don't want them, you can uninstall them to get that space back. And they are NOT bloat ware in any sense of the imagination.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Feb 2013 17:50

mahadevbhu wrote:Lets say I was working on a file on my MS Win 8 machine. As soon as I finish working on it, it would be awesome if I could see the updated version on my win 8 phone.

Then, in Delhi metro, I work on it on my phone. As soon as I get home, I see the updated version on my PC.

How can this happen? Skydrive?

Is this the killer feature that Win phone 8 is waiting for with bated breath? If so, why havent they thought of it earlier?

Arrey bhai, install this: https://apps.live.com/skydrive

Skydriver Desktop app allows this, after installing the app you should save file in Favorites > Skydrive folder. Earlier app would sync everything from your skydrive to your disk, now you can even do selective sync so that you only sync stuff you want.

Also, check out the "Fetch" feature, that can be enabled from settings. Using fetch, one can access any file on computer from web or skydrive app.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 08 Feb 2013 18:16

Raja Bose wrote:It turns out that the MacBook Air actually comes with lesser storage space than the Microsoft Surface Pro

Apparently Fruit Co made a deliberate decision to report disk sizes differently (instead of as a power of 2)....I smell the hand of Mahdi here.

This was a fake controversy from day one, just like start menu, just like secure boot. Seriously, Google have implemented secure boot in Chrome OS.... neither tech journalists nor FLOSS-vadis have reposted that as much as secureboot.

But what is weired is that OS X(now without rosetta) which is basically pure 64bit have disk footprint of Windows 8 which comes with compatibility for 32bit apps, compatibility mode for 95,98,XP,sp2,sp3,Vista,sp1,sp2,7....