Indian Interests

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Feb 2013 20:25

harbans wrote:
There is no difference between Hindu and Bharatiya!
Fine if you say so. Have you not created a specific thread for that? Why not try and outline it there?

If you hadn't noticed, done some already! But your comment here on this thread presupposed a difference, so responded. You have been talking about values, but beyond beating the drum of "Truth" umpteen times, haven't as yet made a case for which values you would want!

Anyway ....

You're right, there is a different thread to discuss these issues.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Feb 2013 20:27

Harbans ji,

There is a reason constitution defined Hinduism as it did. Even Sri BR Ambedkar when he wanted to convert, he did so from one Hinduism to another Hinduism. Please read the BR Ambedkar thread when you have some time.

Hinduism is the confluence of Bharatiya civilization. There are 33 million religions in it. All its holy places are definition of Bharatiya physical existence, its Dharma Sastras are its social existence, Vedas&Upanishads its intellectual existence, festivals are cultural existence. Bharata Mata (the Vandemataram) is the embodiment of national spirit.

For Tripurasuras to join this Bharatiya sangam, they need to remove their egos and submit to Bharatamata or die fighting her. Refer Devi Bhavatam - Mahishasura episode and how Durga doesn't accept any proposal Mahisha gives her except fighting her.

That is why such Vandematarams are big NO NO for Indian Muslims and Christians. That means putting the nation before their foreign religions.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 08 Feb 2013 21:00

You have been talking about values, but beyond beating the drum of "Truth" umpteen times, haven't as yet made a case for which values you would want!

No worries Rajesh Ji, i'll beat the importance of the value drum here and you can beat the Bharatiya/ Hindutva drum on the thread you created for the very purpose. When you crystallize that vision we can maybe compare notes where Indian Interests and Bharatiya/ Hindutva interests match or conflict. Maybe later one can start a thread comparing Bharatiya/ HIndutva Vs Indian interests matches and conflicts thread.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 08 Feb 2013 21:05

harbans wrote:
You have been talking about values, but beyond beating the drum of "Truth" umpteen times, haven't as yet made a case for which values you would want!
No worries Rajesh Ji, i'll beat the importance of the value drum here and you can beat the Bharatiya/ Hindutva drum on the thread you created for the very purpose. When you crystallize that vision we can maybe compare notes where Indian Interests and Bharatiya/ Hindutva interests match or conflict. Maybe later one can start a thread comparing Bharatiya/ HIndutva Vs Indian interests matches and conflicts thread.

Well you have been talking about "values" a long time, but it is hard to make out which "values" you mean! That is, any "values" beyond "Truth, Truth, Truth, Truth, ...."!

It is in fact unclear if your value "Truth" covers people's personal lives - Privacy Protection, or national security - Counter-Intelligence, or archaeology and history - Theories with some evidence but no way of finding Truth.

Please do share those other "values" with the others on whichever thread you choose and the mods allow!

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 08 Feb 2013 21:15

RamaY garu,

it is good that you also included Economic/Food/Energy/Politics under the "Hindu Interests".
It is a very good first step to start bringing the Political consciousness back to the Hindus.
the delusion of pretending that it doesn't matter needs to be chased out of our minds.
on a related note, how is your project of organizing local meetings going? you said you wanted to tie in politics with MB to start the process?
you don't need to discuss if you think it draws too much attention.
but once in a while, if you think your discussions are coming to fruition in bringing political consciousness, please do update.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 08 Feb 2013 21:42

Hari Seldon wrote: Harbans may well hv a point.

Actually, Hari ji, Harbans ji does not even have the ghost of a point.

Harbans ji's elevation of "Values" as a fundamental category, rather than a category that always and exclusively depends on cultural context, is so outmoded it's not even funny. It harks back to the moral positivism (once known as "modernism") of Hegel, and even prior to that, the romanticism of Fichte and Schelling. The underlying idea is that ALL human beings are essentially capable of adopting a universal set of norms independent of context, and are ultimately capable of accepting such abstract notions as "Truth", "Courage," "Justice", "Liberty" etc. as categories with universally applicable meaning. This is, in fact, the root of what Rajiv Malhotra calls "Western Universalism."

In any realm of serious philosophical scholarship, Harbans ji's ideas have been thrown in the trash more than fifty years ago, when postmodernists such as Jacques Derrida and Michel Foucault established that absolute "Values" are nothing but a figment of romanticist imagination. The science of epistemology ("how do we come to know/believe what we think we know/believe") has demonstrated the falsehood of moral positivism in a consistent and repeatable manner. Other than on a timepass internet discussion, nobody would take Harbans ji seriously.

Let me illustrate the epistemological process with an example. Here is a value: the decimal number "10.2".

"10.2" is a perfectly good "Value", as any mathematician will tell you. However, that's exactly where its utility ends. The moment you do even the smallest operation with this value, such as assigning it to a variable in computing, you are giving it context. Its utility and meaning derives completely and entirely from its context.

The first question to answer is "10.2 what?" Are we talking in the domain of finance, physics, geographical surveying, medicine? The moment you specify a domain (which is 100% necessary for the Value to have utility) context has already taken over the picture. The Value by itself is nothing.

Let us say "finance". Ok, so what is the denomination and currency? 10.2 rupees? 10.2 lakh rupees? 10.2 crore rupees? 10.2 million USD? Each and every qualifier that gives meaning and utility to the "value" embeds it deeper and deeper into some context or other.

There is still more. Let us say it is 10.2 lakh rupees. What is the meaning of that? Does it mean the same thing to Anil Ambani, to myself, and to an agricultural labourer in interior Maharashtra? Only with subjectivity is the meaning of a value enriched and stabilized. The more context it has, the more useful it becomes. Without context it is perfectly useless... and that's what is wrong with Harbans ji's argument that Values devoid of context, specifically the Hindu context, can serve any purpose whatsoever in the definition of Indian interests.

When Harbans ji says "Truth" it is meaningless. He has already, inherently imbued some context to the word "Truth" even by defining it within his own mind. He qualifies it as "truth" based on some notion of what Dharma teaches. The Muslim has an entirely different idea of what qualifies as "truth". To a Muslim the truth is "La Illaha Illillah, Mohammed Rasool Ullah". When Harbans ji offers "Truth" as a parameter for defining Indian interests he is doing something as fundamentally useless as taking a handful of air, claiming it as his own and offering it to you as a gift. Can he control who else has breathed that air, will breathe that air, is breathing it now? Can he control what other substances other people have put into that air? Air has a "value" based on certain partial pressure of constituent gases, but it is only when it resides in my lungs, oxygenates my tissues, that it has utility for me.

The pretense that Values have any utility at all, independent of cultural context... which in India means Hindu context... is simply daft. To say that "only Truth matters and the rest is Maya" is moronic, and betrays a complete failure to understand even the meaning of the term "Maya." Maya is not falsehood, it is a hierarchy of contingent realities. As described in the Chandogya Upanishad, ALL reality except for Brahman is conditional and contingent on some underlying reality; the nama-rupa (name and form) of a clay pot is contingent on the existence of clay. Similarly, the value of "Truth" has an existence that is 100% contingent on the context from which it came... i.e. for Indian interests, the Hindu context.

In pretending that "Truth" is an absolute value with any utility whatsoever, Harbans ji is not merely echoing the long-debunked moral positivism of Hegel. He is even failing to understand the basic precepts of the Dharma he claims as his own... and promoting Maya as absolute reality.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Feb 2013 21:48

Devesh garu,

I think this is a good place to present some status. Makes people aware and more than anything feel joy.

The public meetings are in progress. At least one/two meetings are happening in mainly schools where priests visit them and answer their questions in simple language, tell a story etc., and distribute pens/pencils. The response is very positive. Kids are very happy to know that respecting/revering their parents and teachers make them good, happy and successful. And they are happy that the progress, confidence, financial development they seek are in no way conflict with their Bharatiya identity/culture and so on.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 08 Feb 2013 22:52

harbans wrote:Why don't you identify Hindu interests on the Bharatiya thread?

First and foremost, do you acknowledge the existence of Hinduism(SD) or do you deny the existence of Hinduism(SD)? If one does not even acknowledge the existence of Hinduism(SD), then there is no point in discussing Hindu(SD) interests.

Anyway, all the people have 4 interests:
Dharma
Artha (possessions)
Kama (desires)
Moksha (liberation, not just heaven)

Lets say Moksha is a unique feature of Indic religions. So, one is left with 3 interests:
Dharma
Artha (possessions)
Kama (desires)

In terms of Artha (possessions) and Kama (desires), there is bound to be competition among all individuals/groups for the limited resources. This is a constant. In a proper set-up(good governance, development, education, employment, empowerment,...etc), the competition would be fair and just without corruption or nepotism.

So, in this regard, the collective interests is to have good governance, development(infrastructure, facilities, growth,...etc) and security of private and public property.

But, in the above calculations, Dharma has not been taken into account. So, we need to address on Dharma. Your favourite topic. As Rudradevji just explained so wonderfully, values are based on context. 'Dharma' is a generic term for values/ideology. Different people follow different ideologies/value-system. Hindus follow Hinduism(SD). Shias follow some other value system. Catholics follow a different ideology. Based on these ideologies different individuals/groups have different values. Based on these values, different individuals/groups have different priorities of Artha and Kama.

So, what is the Dharma of Hindus?
Ahimsa paramo dharmah (non-violence is the supreme dharma)
Dharmo rakshati rakshitah (dharma protects those who protect it)

So, Hindus want Artha, Kama and Moksha without having to harm others. If others harm the interests(Artha, Kama and Moksha) of Hindus, then it is their Dharma to defend themselves and their way of life. Hindus have their own rules on accepted and prohibited Artha and Kama.

In contrast, there are certain ideologies that aim to fulfill their Artha and Kama by harassing and looting others.

Please note that Hindu definition of 'Ahimsa' is not the same as Gandhian definition of 'Ahimsa'. In Hinduism, there are certain circumstances, when use of force is not seen as himsa(violence). In contrast, gandhian 'ahimsa' seems to regard all force(regardless of context) as himsa(violence). Of course, one can never be sure about what exactly was gandhian 'ahimsa' because gandhiji seemed to have bended its definitions to suit his immediate needs.

One must understand that Dharma(ideology/value system) plays a paramount role in human endeavor. It is this Dharma which defines what a person is likely to see as Artha and Kama. It is Dharma(ideology/value system) that decides what a person is likely to see as gain/loss.

From a collective Hindu perspective, Hindus' Artha and Kama is connected with the Dharma and Artha of India. So,

Hindus want following development of India:

In terms of Artha (possessions) and Kama (desires), there is bound to be competition among all individuals/groups for the limited resources. This is a constant. In a proper set-up(good governance, development, education, employment, empowerment,...etc), the competition would be fair and just without corruption or nepotism.

So, in this regard, the collective interests is to have good governance, development(infrastructure, facilities, growth,...etc) and security of private and public property.

This may not be true for all other Dharmas(ideologies/value systems). Some people may see their Artha and Kama in destruction of India or slavery of India or poverty of India or powerlessness of India,...etc.

Lastly, I repeat my query:

First and foremost, do you acknowledge the existence of Hinduism(SD) or do you deny the existence of Hinduism(SD)? If one does not even acknowledge the existence of Hinduism(SD), then there is no point in discussing Hindu(SD) interests.

---
Rudradev saar,
great post. Wonderfully articulated...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 08 Feb 2013 23:09

Rudradev wrote: In pretending that "Truth" is an absolute value with any utility whatsoever, Harbans ji is not merely echoing the long-debunked moral positivism of Hegel. He is even failing to understand the basic precepts of the Dharma he claims as his own... and promoting Maya as absolute reality.

Holy Cow Sir-ji. Once in a while, you outdo even yourself.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 09 Feb 2013 00:48

Rudradev sensei, dandavat pranam!

Perhaps the only "fundamental" value with any constant utility we can speak of is "survival". However, even here, the philosophical depth of the individual and group culture determines the highest/fullest level of long-term survival possible in any given situation. The fullest level being one that insures personal integrity along all purusharthas taken as a Gestalt.

But moral codes are merely work-in-progress, a constantly revised set of obligations or prohibitions based on their survival-value as observed by the group from historical experience. For any set of individuals to survive as a group, such a moral code is necessary for regulation and uniformity, to a certain extent. That should not lead to what Karl Popper criticized as "Historism", or what romanticists in reaction make into fey virtues. The historists and romanticists merely use the same flawed logic, but arrive at opposite conclusions based on their emotional reaction.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 09 Feb 2013 00:53

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 6840.story

At India's Maha Kumbh Mela festival, holy smoke, dust and noise!

This is as close to peace and quiet as it gets at India's Maha Kumbh Mela, a once-in-a-lifetime (well, this lifetime) Woodstock-gone-viral event billed as the world's largest religious festival. How big? It's expected to draw 100 million people over 55 days ending March 10.
Part spiritual journey, part commercial circus, the Hindu tradition is a full-frontal assault on senses too often dulled by the debilitating sameness of chain outlets, corporate-sports swooshes and designer coffee.As stragglers head inland, they're greeted by the smoke, dust and noise of this 4,700-acre pop-up megacity — and its 35,000 portable potties. Lost-relative messages spew from loudspeakers, clashing with movie soundtracks, Hindu chants and religious lectures blasting from hundreds of compounds adorned with fluorescent peacocks, flashing goddesses and twirling signs that read, "I love India.""It's all a bit crazy," said Baba Nirbhaya Puri, looking on from his (understated) ashram. "We're here for inner peace, not this stuff."The masses arrive from dusty villages and bustling cities aboard tractors, jets and rickshaws to this place deep in India's soul where myths breathe and gods with elephant heads and monkey bodies embody the country's rich, textured religious culture."Wash your sins in the Ganges, not your clothes," a sign entreats as women wring out saris and men shiver in wet skivvies, oblivious to the health risks of dipping in one of the world's most polluted rivers. With 750 million gallons of sewage dumped each day into the 1,500-mile river, any link between cleanliness and godliness is an overwhelming act of faith.There's no shortage of that. "Mother Ganges purifies itself," said Ram Naresh, 70, a farmer. "One drop cleanses the body and the soul."About 30 million devotees are expected to attend the festival Sunday, considered the most auspicious bathing day.Held in some form every three years, with the largest crowds at the 12- and 144-year marks, when it's believed that good karma is strongest, the festival was first written about by a Chinese traveler in AD 634, although its roots are older. Mark Twain, among the first Americans to attend, described it in 1895 as a marvel to "our kind of people, the cold whites."

( What will happen If these 100 Millions show up Armed and In the Spirit of Indic Beertherhood. This one Platform have the Power to Tranform and Rejuvinate India Yugo Yuge )

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Feb 2013 03:03

Harbans ji's elevation of "Values" as a fundamental category, rather than a category that always and exclusively depends on cultural context, is so outmoded it's not even funny. It harks back to the moral positivism (once known as "modernism") of Hegel

Who does Rudra ji quote here against me? Western thought.

even prior to that, the romanticism of Fichte and Schelling.

Again Rudra Ji who are you trying to quote to disprove me? Western philosophers.

In any realm of serious philosophical scholarship, Harbans ji's ideas have been thrown in the trash more than fifty years ago, when postmodernists such as Jacques Derrida and Michel Foucault established that absolute "Values" are nothing but a figment of romanticist imagination.

So who are the Post modernists Jacques and Michel.? Western..

The science of epistemology ("how do we come to know/believe what we think we know/believe")

Western meme used once again..

The pretense that Values have any utility at all, independent of cultural context... which in India means Hindu context... is simply daft.

Continue thinking such. Your India will shrink. Your 'Hindu' will shrink.

In pretending that "Truth" is an absolute value with any utility whatsoever, Harbans ji is not merely echoing the long-debunked moral positivism of Hegel. He is even failing to understand the basic precepts of the Dharma he claims as his own... and promoting Maya as absolute reality.

Western references again.. Rhetoric and BS. Nothing else.

Actually, Hari ji, Harbans ji does not even have the ghost of a point.

Apologies, but apart from Western sources used here you don't have an iota of a point except rhetoric.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Feb 2013 03:11

Well you have been talking about "values" a long time, but it is hard to make out which "values" you mean! That is, any "values" beyond "Truth, Truth, Truth, Truth, ...."!

Well were you not he person who wrote these while quoting me:

harbans wrote:
1. Satyam (Truth)
2. Dhrti (patience)
3. Ks’ama (forgiveness)
4. Dhama (self-control)
5. Shaoca (cleanliness)
6. Dhii (benevolent intellect)
7. Vidya (knowledge)
8. Karuna (Compassion).
9. Samatha (Equality)

Oh i forgot. Truth is not sacrosanct for you. It's OK to LIE, CHEAT to prove a point (Hindutva specifically so) as long as it gets some imagined benefits.

Yes Truth = God. I do believe so. Hindu's don't from your posts. I can't trust your Hindutva..if that is what you represent.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 09 Feb 2013 03:56

harbans, please check the Bharataya thread for my response.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 09 Feb 2013 09:50

harbans wrote:
Harbans ji's elevation of "Values" as a fundamental category, rather than a category that always and exclusively depends on cultural context, is so outmoded it's not even funny. It harks back to the moral positivism (once known as "modernism") of Hegel
Who does Rudra ji quote here against me? Western thought.

even prior to that, the romanticism of Fichte and Schelling.
Again Rudra Ji who are you trying to quote to disprove me? Western philosophers.

Harbans ji, Why should I not cite these Western Philosophers, when the idea you are peddling is a carbon copy of what these Western Philosophers advanced (and were debunked for) a hundred plus years ago? Apologies, but I can't think of any serious Indian philosopher who would be so ignorant as to propose moral positivism, or suggest that values alone have any meaning when separated from cultural context. This is the kind of numbskull thinking that led to the German Indologists, Aryan Invasion Theory etc. etc.

In any realm of serious philosophical scholarship, Harbans ji's ideas have been thrown in the trash more than fifty years ago, when postmodernists such as Jacques Derrida and Michel Foucault established that absolute "Values" are nothing but a figment of romanticist imagination.
So who are the Post modernists Jacques and Michel.? Western..

So? Will you not quote Darwin's theory of Evolution, in an argument against Creationism? Will you prefer to let Creationist lies go unchallenged, just because Darwin was a Westerner? What kind of commitment to the "truth" is that supposed to be? \

The science of epistemology ("how do we come to know/believe what we think we know/believe")
Western meme used once again..

Ok Harbans ji, here you are correct, and I apologize. I should have used the term "siddhanta", the science of the means of understanding things, which is very much part of our tradition for thousands of years before the Westerners came up with epistemology.

My argument stands though. The science of siddhanta shows that values are meaningless devoid of context. Honestly, Indian thought has never been so backward as to propose moral positivism ("Values are absolute universal, stand-alone entities which are useful even when separated from cultural context.") So I had to give the example of ignorant Western Philosophers like Hegel being rebutted by the epistemology of Foucault.

The pretense that Values have any utility at all, independent of cultural context... which in India means Hindu context... is simply daft.
Continue thinking such. Your India will shrink. Your 'Hindu' will shrink.

On the contrary. It is exactly because of such thinking that my Hindu India SURVIVES despite the holocaust it has endured for 1,500 years.

In pretending that "Truth" is an absolute value with any utility whatsoever, Harbans ji is not merely echoing the long-debunked moral positivism of Hegel. He is even failing to understand the basic precepts of the Dharma he claims as his own... and promoting Maya as absolute reality.
Western references again.. Rhetoric and BS. Nothing else.

You are making a completely Western argument (that too, an outmoded and debunked Western argument) in suggesting that "Values" stripped away from Hindu Sanskriti Context can be useful in defining Indian Interests. So it is quite ridiculous that you criticize me for providing Western references in my rebuttal... when your entire point of view in this matter is Western Universalist, and has much more in common with Biblical/Quranic/Marxist injunctions than with Dharma.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Feb 2013 20:58

So? Will you not quote Darwin's theory of Evolution, in an argument against Creationism? Will you prefer to let Creationist lies go unchallenged, just because Darwin was a Westerner?

Sure i will. But it's you who are peddling Western arguments against Dharma Lakshana's. Not me. You have not as yet noticed that have you? In that post all you did is gloat how Westerners have debunked Dharma lakshana's.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Feb 2013 00:52

Can Big Data From Epic Indian Pilgrimage Help Save Lives

The Positive Spin means Danger Underneath: No Nishkam Karma From Harvard To Be Expected

The South Asia Institute at Harvard has sent a team of public health specialists to one of the largest gatherings in the world, the Kumbh Mela in India, with a goal of assembling the largest public health data set ever among a transient population.The Kumbh Mela, a religious festival that is expected to draw nearly 100 million pilgrims, is in full swing near Allahabad, at the confluence of rivers that Hindus consider to be holy.The pilgrims are there to bathe. The epidemiologists are there to study their health.They are analyzing data from the four hospitals that cater to the congregants to try to gauge who is ailing from what and when. By mapping “complaints, diagnoses, medications and geographical origins of patients,” the researchers said, they hope to discover disease outbreaks and patterns.The real-time surveillance, the researchers say, could be useful if disease breaks out this time and to plan for future Kumbh Melas. It could hold lessons for other countries looking to tap the power of data for public health.“This will be the largest data set of its kind in a temporary mass gathering, its size allowing us to develop new metrics for detecting epidemics when total population size fluctuates widely from day to day,” said Dr. Satchit Balsari, a fellow at the FXB Center for Health and Human Rights at Harvard and a doctor at New York-Presbyterian Hospital.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Feb 2013 01:11

Rudradev wrote:
On the contrary. It is exactly because of such thinking that my Hindu India SURVIVES despite the holocaust it has endured for 1,500 years.

You are making a completely Western argument (that too, an outmoded and debunked Western argument) in suggesting that "Values" stripped away from Hindu Sanskriti Context can be useful in defining Indian Interests. So it is quite ridiculous that you criticize me for providing Western references in my rebuttal... when your entire point of view in this matter is Western Universalist, and has much more in common with Biblical/Quranic/Marxist injunctions than with Dharma.

There are people who take their personal exprience and personal friendship and want to tell people about it. They want rest of us to follow them. They are clueless on India's interest. I have few people in my own family with similar attitude.
But the force of history will be so strong that these thins will become irralevent

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 10 Feb 2013 01:22

Jhujar wrote:Can Big Data From Epic Indian Pilgrimage Help Save Lives

The Positive Spin means Danger Underneath: No Nishkam Karma From Harvard To Be Expected

The South Asia Institute at Harvard has sent a team of public health specialists to one of the largest gatherings in the world, the Kumbh Mela in India, with a goal of assembling the largest public health data set ever among a transient population.The Kumbh Mela, a religious festival that is expected to draw nearly 100 million pilgrims, is in full swing near Allahabad, at the confluence of rivers that Hindus consider to be holy.The pilgrims are there to bathe. The epidemiologists are there to study their health.They are analyzing data from the four hospitals that cater to the congregants to try to gauge who is ailing from what and when. By mapping “complaints, diagnoses, medications and geographical origins of patients,” the researchers said, they hope to discover disease outbreaks and patterns.The real-time surveillance, the researchers say, could be useful if disease breaks out this time and to plan for future Kumbh Melas. It could hold lessons for other countries looking to tap the power of data for public health.“This will be the largest data set of its kind in a temporary mass gathering, its size allowing us to develop new metrics for detecting epidemics when total population size fluctuates widely from day to day,” said Dr. Satchit Balsari, a fellow at the FXB Center for Health and Human Rights at Harvard and a doctor at New York-Presbyterian Hospital.

Why would epidemiologists from US want to study the transient population and mapping “complaints, diagnoses, medications and geographical origins of patients"?

What kind of lessons can other countries tap from this?

Which are these other countries?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 10 Feb 2013 01:24

what is this "Dharma Lakshana"? there is actually no such thing. "Dharma" doesn't have any "Lakshana". because Dharma is not defined by any Lakshanas. Lakshanas are even more temporary than Rashtras. Lakshanas are primarily used in the analysis of only individuals. when looking at the "Dharma" of the Rashtra, temporary Lakshanas are not cared for. it is long term behavior patterns which are simply referred to as the "Dharma".

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Feb 2013 01:52

ravi_g wrote:[ The real-time surveillance, the researchers say, could be useful if disease breaks out this time and to plan for future Kumbh Melas. It could hold lessons for other countries looking to tap the power of data for public health.“This will be the largest data set of its kind in a temporary mass gathering, its size allowing us to develop new metrics for detecting epidemics when total population size fluctuates widely from day to day,” said Dr. Satchit Balsari, a fellow at the FXB Center for Health and Human Rights at Harvard and a doctor at New York-Presbyterian Hospital.
Why would epidemiologists from US want to study the transient population and mapping “complaints, diagnoses, medications and geographical origins of patients"?

What kind of lessons can other countries tap from this?

Which are these other countries?

THey have been slowly colleting data on Indians. Indans like fools have been allowing these data t be sen to foreign country and military programs and have no clue on what is going on.

Arav · Post by **Arav** » 10 Feb 2013 02:19

What Indians in US must learn from Black History by Rajiv Malhotra

February is celebrated as America’s Black History Month, making it an opportune time to examine some important relationships between the Indian and black communities in this country. For one, there are long-standing ties between the two peoples that ought to be unearthed and rekindled.

Mahatma Gandhi started his civil disobedience movement in South Africa where he spent 21 years honing his political philosophy and leadership skills. The event that became the turning point in his life was when he was thrown off a train, because as a person of colour he was not allowed to sit in first-class even though he had a first-class ticket. The indignity of this event, similar to that experienced by all people of colour in South Africa at that time, launched him into a life of social and political activism. His movement culminated in the eventual overthrow of the British Empire and colonialism in general.

Gandhi’s non-violent struggle later inspired the young Dr Martin Luther King Jr, who studied Gandhi’s civil disobedience approach known as satyagraha, and visited India in 1959 for a month. The details of this trip are memorably recounted in his essay, “My trip to the land of Gandhi”, published in Ebony magazine in 1959. Martin Luther King Jr. had this to say about the reception he received:

“Since our pictures were in the newspapers very often it was not unusual for us to be recognized by crowds in public places and on public conveyances [...] Virtually every door was open to us. We had hundreds of invitations that limited time did not allow us to accept. We were looked upon as brothers with the color of our skins as something of an asset. But the strongest bond of fraternity was the common cause of minority and colonial peoples in America, Africa and Asia struggling to throw off racialism and imperialism”.

The Rev Jesse Jackson Sr., too, has had recurring contact with India in all the years of his active career. In one trip he spent six months in India prior to the Civil Rights Movement in the US.

Recently, in 2008, on the occasion of Gandhi’s 60th death anniversary, he delivered the memorial lecture in New Delhi where he remarked, “One can argue that Mahatma Gandhi, known as Bapu (father) to his compatriots, was the spiritual godfather of these world-class figures (Dr Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela) who changed the world.”

Today, as Indian Americans have become established successfully in their newly adopted country, it is easy to forget the importance of these bonds. We must remember that the 1965 Immigration & Nationality Act which opened the door for large numbers of Asians, Africans and Latin Americans, was enacted against the backdrop of the Civil Rights Movement and the changes in attitude that it created. This reversed the previous system that was designed to maintain the European racial composition of the United States.

Immigrants from India tended to be well-educated, middle-class professionals seeking prosperity, and they hit the ground running to seize the opportunities. Because most Indian Americans arrived after the Civil Rights Act, they did not experience the indignities suffered by African Americans, and because they belonged to the post-Independence generation of India, they hadn’t experienced life under colonial rule either. Professional success came relatively quickly to many Indians and this dulled the impetus to appreciate the benefits of a strong collective identity.

The long list of successful Indian Americans is impressive indeed, but it has made many too self-centered and single-minded in economic pursuits. Success has led to the myth that “becoming American” makes a collective identity irrelevant. Few Indian leaders have studied the history of immigration and identity formation of other minorities in America. They are confused about what the hyphenated identity as “Indian-Americans” means, and what their unique American journey and cultural background could contribute to the fabric of this country.

The recent unceremonious dismissal of Citigroup CEO Vikram Pandit, despite his stellar record, should cause Indian Americans to do some soul-searching. Sadly, Pandit found himself without allies on his own board of directors to defend him as one of their own. In fact, none of the board members was close enough to him to even give a hint that he was about to get fired. When he arrived at the fateful board meeting, he had no clue of what was in store for him.

Moreover, this shocking episode went unscrutinised by our community that feels uncomfortable addressing its vulnerability for being “different.” Individual success, based solely on merit, has surely taken us a long way in America. The playing field is level enough to advance up to a point, but without the anchor and security of a collective voice, high-achieving Indians will remain the solitary outsiders, easy to bring down.

What does all this have to do with African Americans, one might wonder? My response is that they have deep memory and understanding of building community organisations in America. Black churches have historically played a strategic role in building a positive selfhood and collective consciousness, and today there are numerous African-American civic organisations with depth and maturity to secure their position. Unlike the case of Indian immigrants, theirs has not been a quick-success journey, but a long, hard one with many valuable lessons learned along the way.

The reconstruction era after the emancipation of slaves had offered many lessons to African Americans. Ostensibly, it was to be a period when blacks and whites would together rebuild the South, share political power and rehabilitate the former slaves. Indeed, many blacks attained prominent positions, and two blacks were elected as senators. So they felt little need to build separate institutions, imagining that the American melting pot would suffice.

The advances made during the reconstruction, however, proved to be short lived. Soon there was a backlash against blacks and the nation entered the era of Jim Crow laws and the rise of the Ku Klux Klan. Freedom from slavery did not mean that whites accepted blacks as true equals in jobs and power. Equality had its limits, especially at times when whites faced economic distress.

It was after this experience that a new kind of African-American leadership emerged with a focus on building a resilient, independent identity with its own institutions. Unified action was encouraged. This groundwork ultimately led to the American Civil Rights Act in the 1960s, just as Gandhi’s struggle took nearly half a century of strenuous work before culminating in India’s independence. The African-American experience shows us that there is no substitute for grassroots community building and activism, an endeavor that Indian Americans have barely begun. Whether African Americans, Jewish Americans, Hispanic Americans or Muslim Americans, the importance of investing in robust civic organisations based on a solid definition of one’s distinct identity has been indispensable in America.

Without such bottom-up community building, we can expect to see more Vikram Pandits, easily booted out. Or, as I wrote in my blog last week, there will be more Bobby Jindals willing to whitewash their ethnicity in order to get ahead. African Americans provide the experience we need for building a distinct identity in this country. Dr King said it best: “The way of acquiescence leads to moral and spiritual suicide. The way of violence leads to bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers. But, the way of non-violence leads to redemption and the creation of the beloved community.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Feb 2013 03:29

And dont forget Mervyn Dymally from Los Angles who was of Indian origgin and always supported Indian causes in the doldrum years.

http://rolandmartinreports.com/blog/201 ... lly-video/

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Feb 2013 00:07

Indian-language literature is thriving

Ties which Bind and the Others Tied To Others

Literature in Indian languages is vibrant, thriving and more interlinked than is evident, say literary figures. Renowned writers, poets and playwrights, from different Indian languages, who came together at the Jaipur Literature Festival, said their work was not diverse as perceived by outsiders but linked to world literature.Who said Tamil literature is dying? It's so exciting! There are so many writers now. It was always so modern. There is no threat from English writing," said Tamil writer C.S. Lakshmi (pen name Ambai), told IANS.Sitanshu Yashaschandra, a Gujarati poet-playwright, said there were many new literary voices in the language now."But there is also a crisis. Its origin is in the country's growing eco-political dependence on the West," Yashaschandra told IANS at the festival held here from Jan 24 to 29.Eminent poet K. Satchidanandan said literature in Malayalam was vibrant now.Like the case of Benyamin, a popular writer settled in Bahrain, who said at a session that if his books in Malayalam sold thousands of copies, why should he bother about getting them published in English."As a writer one had to juggle language as a circus man. It is difficult to do so in any other language than the mother tongue. But it is nothing related to the love of the language," said the 43-year-old author of "Aadujivitham" (Goat Days).The other point that came up during talks was inter-connected to regional languages, including their link to English.Lakshmi, 69, said though she wrote in Tamil, her writing was "informed by many languages".English has also become a part of our existential world," said the author of "Kaattil Oru Maan" ("A Deer in the Forest").Asia's largest literary fiesta opened with feisty 88-year-old Bengali writer-activist Mahasweta Devi saying though she had written more in the context of Bengal, changing India influenced her literature.Malayalam writer Sethu said he reached a pan-India mission unconsciously. "I went to different parts of India and it gave me a wider pan-India mission." His novel "Pandavapuram" was some years ago adapted into a Bengali film.Yashaschandra, who won a Sahitya Akademi award for his poetic opus "Jatayu", said he found it easy to move within regional languages."The Gujarati way is reach through Marathi. Rajasthani is also next door. There is Nepalese, Assamese and Bengali. I try to bring to life that which is next to me, my neighbouring life."Uday Narayan Singh, a Maithili writer, asked if there was anything called Indian culture or was it Gujarati culture or Tamil culture.To this, Yashaschandra said every Indian language had other languages in it.Legendary Kannada folklorist and playwright Chandrasekhara Kambar said all his literary forms and idioms came from his native culture."Neither have I followed the masters who derived their imaginative tools from the repertories of pan-Indian culture, for instance, the shared ode of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata," the 76-year-old, winner of India's most prestigious literary award Jnanpith, said in a speech, praising writers H.S. Shiva Prakash and Hanur Krishnamurthy for "finding inspiration in folk and devotional cultures to turn works into 'a mourning and fiesta'".Later, he surprised all by singing a Kannada folk song, "Mao Tse Tunga" mourning the death of Mao Zedong.Contrary to this, Satchidanandan, who too has won the Sahitya Akademi award, made a case for bilingual writers, saying "that way, the language has a better chance of survival".

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Feb 2013 06:59

Views from the Right

Afzal's Sentence

The Sangh Parivar weeklies have delayed their reaction to the hanging of Afzal Guru. The latest issue of the Organiser, however, throws light on how Afzal's death may have also laid to rest one of the issues the saffron ranks used to beat the Congress with. This is clear from a "special report" that seeks to insinuate that "Congress eye on polls to delay Afzal hanging". The report claims that a "large chunk in the Congress" was "in favour of delaying taking a final call on carrying out the death sentence of Afzal" fearing that "its vote bank, particularly among the minorities, might be disturbed if the death sentence is carried before the general polls".

While the Organiser used this issue to accuse the Congress with minority appeasement, for Panchjanya, Afzal's hanging was noteven worth a mention. The report in the Organiser flies in the face of fact, because Afzal was hanged just before the issue went to press. For their part, the Organiser and Panchjanya will now have to inform their readers.

Modi, Mamata and Akhilesh

Three separate reports in Panchjanya and the Organiser expose the saffron camp's predicament in the country, moving from west to east — Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal. With the Sangh Parivar owing some of its credibility among the middle classes to the larger-than-life image of Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, both weeklies feature Modi's speech at the Shri Ram College of Commerce in Delhi.

The Parivar, however, appears to cling to the old issues at the core of its Hindu revivalism in order to revive its fortunes in politically critical UP, where the BJP has been thrown to the political margins. Panchjanya has given prominence to a report from Meerut, alleging "rampant cow slaughtering" making the Ganga "red" with "blood" while saints take their dips in Allahabad. The article alleges the Akhilesh Yadav government has allowed the butchering of cows with cases of "arson, spreading communalism, loot and rioting" against so-called "cow protectors" in western UP.

But in West Bengal, where the BJP has never been a significant player, the Parivar sees a conspiracy by the Congress and the Left against Mamata Banerjee, who was once part of the NDA and recently quit the UPA. A "special focus" report in the Organiser seeks to downplay the remarks of an influential Muslim cleric who said Banerjee was lying in claiming to have fulfilled most of her promises to the minority community. The article, instead, seeks to project this as "veiled Muslim warnings (to) spoil social fabric" and appears to appeal on Banerjee's behalf that she has 42 months to deliver on her promises and that the community should not get restive. It also seeks to shore up the Banerjee government by claiming that her "rural base (has) not tilted".

Ram temple

The issue of the Ram temple at Ayodhya gets a lot of space in Panchjanya in the wake of the VHP's fresh assertion during a congregation of saints at the Maha Kumbh. An editorial reports the observation of a Supreme Court judge during the hearing on an appeal by the CBI in the case against L.K. Advani and other saffron leaders about their alleged role in the demolition of the Babri mosque. The observation that the CBI's counsel should desist from calling the 1992 episode a "national crime" has been highlighted by the editorial as an example of the CBI's prejudice under the Congress government. The editorial seeks to hurl the issue at Congress vice-president Rahul Gandhi. It says that, had the Congress been reflective of the "DNA of India", it would also be agitated by the alleged razing of the Ram temple centuries ago. It accuses the Congress of being guided by the "DNA of Babar".

Compiled by Ravish Tiwari

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Feb 2013 22:23

In contravention of the law

Banning of the movie Vishwaroopam by the State of Tamil Nadu was clearly in contravention of the law laid down by our Supreme Court. The sad part is that Kamal Haasan, producer of the movie, agreed to carry out cuts in the movie as demanded by certain Muslim groups. It was not a settlement but surrender by Mr. Haasan albeit for pragmatic reasons. However it lays down a bad precedent because it concedes to certain intolerant groups demanding a ban, a veto or appellate power over the decision of an expert body like the Censor Board.

Our Constitution prescribes certain fundamental duties to be performed by citizens (Article 51-A). One duty of paramount importance which should be performed is the duty to practise tolerance. Otherwise democracy, a basic feature of our Constitution, will be under siege and the cherished right to freedom of expression will be held hostage by an intolerant mindless mob.

(Soli J. Sorabjee is a former Attorney General of India)

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/th ... e#comments

will you please share your interest and make the case felt among the masses?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Feb 2013 06:18

The Greatest Indian: Sardar Patel or Atal Bihari Vajpayee?
( Tamacha On Chacha )

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Feb 2013 08:40

From the Urdu Press

Playing politics

Delhi-based Hamara Samaj on February 11 and several others highlighted Omar Abdullah's statement on the increased "alienation of Kashmir" after Afzal Guru's hanging. Commenting on the political dimensions of the hanging, Rashtriya Sahara, in an editorial on February 10, writes: "It is believed that not executing the death sentence of Afzal Guru had become an effective weapon for the BJP and Shiv Sena... the hanging has also made the threat of a Parliament logjam irrelevant if the prime minister and Sonia Gandhi do not apologise for Home Minister Shinde's statement that RSS camps were training grounds for terrorism."

Inquilab, in its editorial on February 12, says: "Afzal Guru's hanging has been made the subject of politics... There is no doubt that the UPA government, under the leadership of the Congress, has stunned the nation by executing, on a priority basis, the death sentence of Guru... The BJP welcomed it initially, but on realising that doing so would 'politically benefit' the Congress, it changed the gear and made the delay in [his] hanging a target of criticism."

Prime candidate

The question of the NDA's PM candidate has been the subject of much discussion, with most papers discounting the possibility that it could be Gujarat CM Narendra Modi because of internal differences within the NDA.

Rashtriya Sahara, in its February 12 editorial, writes: "Some observers have commented that the meaning of (Nitish) Kumar's silence is that he has accepted Modi's candidature. But the statement of JD(U) president and NDA convener, Sharad Yadav, to the effect that making noises about anybody's name... is baseless and unwise, has punctured such speculation. Yadav's view on some corporations indulging in propaganda is an open warning and means those tossing around Modi's name are trying to create a dangerous situation." The daily Siasat, commenting on Yashwant Sinha's demand after Rajnath Singh's election as BJP president that Modi's name be announced, writes: "Yashwant Sinha is not a product of the RSS. He is a former socialist... Also, he has the latent desire to become PM. Thus, his support for Modi is surprising." According to Jamaat-e-Islami's Daawat, whenever Modi's name comes up, there are differences within the BJP and NDA: "When he is not acceptable to his own party and the NDA, how can he be acceptable to the country?"

Rape law

Commenting on the ordinance to check rape and sexual assault, following the Verma committee report, Siasat, in an editorial on February 3, writes: "By promulgating the ordinance, the government has tried to send the message that it is serious about the security of its citizens, particularly women. Many organisations... have drawn attention to the causes of the present problems of security of women. But action... has to be initiated by individuals...". Delhi-based Nai Duniya, edited by former Samajwadi Party leader, Shahid Siddiqui, says: "What is of utmost significance is that there is great need for framing laws, but more important is an effort to awaken a collective conscience that... does not rely on legal constraints alone."

Better Half

A front page anchor in Sahafat (February 4) says: "Riding to power on a bicycle, Akhilesh Yadav, may be ruling in the most populous state... But on the social networking site Facebook, his wife and MP Dimple Yadav has left him behind. Dimple's page has been 'liked' by about 20,000 netizens whereas the technology savvy 'socialist' CM lags behind with only 8,000 admirers."

Compiled by Seema Chishti

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 15 Feb 2013 16:44

Minority scholarship constitutional: HC

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/02/mino ... al-hc.html

A five-judge bench of the Gujarat High Court on Friday afternoon held UPA’s pre-matric minority scholarship scheme as constitutional in a 3-2 decision. The five-judge bench was formed after a two-judge bench, which held the scheme to be unconstitutional, referred the matter to a larger bench for finality on its constitutionality.

While the detailed judgement is awaited, Justice Akil Qureshi read out the operative portions of the judgment for the majority side, stating that this scheme does not violate Article 15 of the Constitution. Justice Pardiwala read out the dissenting view that this scheme is discriminatory and unconstitutional.

Under the scheme, the Union Government contributes 75 per cent of the scholarship amount while the State Governments are required to contribute 25 per cent of the amount. The Advocate-General of Gujarat asked the court to grant a stay on the judgement.

Refusing to grant a stay, the court held that this was merely a referral bench which had to judge on the constitutionality or otherwise of the scheme. The final order for implementation thereof is to be made by the two-judge bench which referred this matter to the larger bench.

This matter has a long history. The Congress-led UPA had initiated this scheme under the 15-Point Programme for the Welfare of Minorities wherein poor students belonging to five specific minority communities (Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists and Parsis) were to be given scholarships provided they maintained the grades specified under the scheme.

The Government of Gujarat refused to implement the scheme stating that it discriminated between students on the basis of religion. Moreover, the Gujarat Government had a scheme in place since three decades which covered six lakh eligible poor pre-matric students whereas the minority scholarship scheme would be applicable only to 52,260 students.

A Gujarat Congress member Adam Chaki filed a Public Interest Litigation, asking the High Court to issue directions to the Gujarat Government to implement the scheme. The Union Government, through its law officers, supported the stand taken by Chaki.

Apart from arguing on the unconstitutionality of this scheme, the Gujarat Government also argued that the minority communities in Gujarat are more developed and educationally advanced as compared to minorities in many other States and even compared to people belonging to the SC, ST, SEBC and EBC categories.

Therefore, targeting a limited number of communities on the basis of religion alone would create ‘heart-burning’ and discriminatory feeling amongst the other low income students.

Interestingly, in an earlier petition which challenged the 15-Point Programme, another two-Judge Bench of the Gujarat High Court had held that “funds utilised by States for … providing education etc” to specific religions would not violate the Constitution. Even the Bombay High Court has upheld the constitutionality of this scheme.

However, the two-judge Bench of the Gujarat High Court (Chief Justice being one of them) listening to Adam Chaki’s petition held that since the scheme entailed “further classification by way of micro-classification” on the basis of religion alone, it was unconstitutional. In other words, it first classified the eligible applicants on the basis of income and then made a micro-classification on the basis of religion.

In a scathing remark on ‘education secularism’, the two-judge Bench observed that the UPA had, through this scheme, “exposed the idea that there is no necessity of socio-economic upliftment of persons of even the poorer and socially backward strata with the help of Government sponsorship unless they belong to the five minority religions.”

One might ask why the matter was heard by a five-judge bench. Because of the apparent contradiction in the judgement of the earlier two-judge bench which was reviewing the Prime Minister’s 15-Point Programme and the latter two-judge bench holding the scheme unconstitutional, the matter was referred to a larger five-judge bench which gave its judgement on Friday.

The Gujarat Government is very likely to knock on the Supreme Court’s doors once the implementation orders are given by the two-judge bench which referred the judgement.

It would be myopic and needless to see this judgement as a sort of victory of one set of forces over another. The UPA’s view has been that students belonging to some religions need special care and, therefore, such micro-classification serves the purpose of assimilating minorities within the ‘mainstream’. The Gujarat High Court has supported this view today.

The Gujarat Government’s view, on the other hand, is that if meritorious students belonging to poor families need financial assistance for education and if Government coffers are being utilised, they must all be given that regardless of their religion – which is what the Gujarat Government’s existing schemes do.

This debate is an ongoing one that is set in motion since the Constituent Assembly debates while finalising our Constitution. Therefore, it is imperative that the discourses do not drift in unwarranted tangents. The very nature of ramifications of any position in this debate necessitates that needless pandering and outrage be resisted.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 20 Feb 2013 17:44

Muslims should shed attitude of minorityism, says M.J. Akbar

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/m ... 429030.ece

Veteran journalist M.J. Akbar has questioned the minority status of Muslims, saying they had ruled India for decades and Brahmins were a bigger minority. He called upon Muslims to unshackle themselves from the “politics of fear” and adopt the “politics of development.”

Muslims had become a minority when their hands turned to the government for help and not to Allah. And it was true that though Muslims were in a minority, they had ruled India for centuries. Muslims constituted roughly 20 per cent of the population during the time of eminent saint Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti of Ajmer in the 12th century, and even now they accounted for the same percentage.

Mr. Akbar said, “The word ‘minority’ is not associated with numbers but with power.” Brahmins did not consider themselves a minority. Only Dalits should be considered a minority as they had never ruled the country.

He was speaking on Sunday at the fifth annual convention of Muslim Writers Academy, only one of its kind for Gujarat-based Muslim writers and journalists.

The former Congress MP said it was time for the community to introspect. The need of the hour was to change the attitude and mindset. “Changing attitude and mindset is not easy but when the time demands a change, a change should be ushered in, for power flows not from a sword but power flows from education.”

Muslims should start regaining their self-confidence and shed the “politics of begging.” “Indian Muslims should consider themselves fortunate since India is a democratic country and communities here are empowered.”

Muslims should not just cast their votes but sell them. “Sell it to the bidder who promises education and especially to that bidder who promises education to the girls,” he said.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Feb 2013 22:02

Muslims should not just cast their votes but sell them. “Sell it to the bidder who promises education and especially to that bidder who promises education to the girls,” he said.

Muslims in India have always sold their votes, not to the ones who promise education, but to the ones who promise appeasement.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Feb 2013 09:11

Views from the Right

Italian Job

Since Sonia Gandhi's ascendancy in the Congress, the Sangh Parivar has never lost the chance to allege a conspiracy behind anything Italian. On the kickbacks in the VVIP chopper deal, the Organiser cover story asserts that "whenever there is involvement of Italian companies or individuals striding the corridors of power in India there is a lurking suspicion that the Congress president will take a lenient view" and cites the example of the alleged leniency towards the Italian marines involved in the killing of Indian fishermen. The story claims that the "needle of suspicion points to Sonia Gandhi" because the VVIP chopper deal is reminiscent of Bofors. In its editorial, Panchjanya asks if the investigating agencies loosen their grip when the allegations are linked to Italy.

The Organiser cites irregularities in the CWG and the 2G scam to wonder whether former air chief S.P. Tyagi was a "fall guy like Kalmadi and Raja", because "the real culprit is always behind the curtains". It also underscores how "Sheila Dikshit, Jaipal Reddy, Kumari Shelja were not probed in the Commonwealth Scam to shield the real beneficiaries of the scam. Kalmadi was the fall guy. Raja was made the fall guy in the 2G", while the government dragged its feet over "Coalgate". So the Organiser apprehends there could be a "big plot to shield the real culprit".

AFTER AFZAL

Having missed out on responding to Afzal Guru's hanging in their last editions, the Parivar journals have sought to compensate for that in their latest issues. A column in the Organiser attacks J&K Chief Minister Omar Abdullah for his reaction, describing it as a "provocative outburst... to encourage separatists". It reminds readers that Guru's "death penalty was judicial verdict, delay, timing of execution (was a) political gaffe".

The column, however, justifies the "unacceptable secrecy" in carrying out the execution, given the case of Balwant Singh Rajoana, sentenced to death in the Beant Singh assassination case. "Extremists in Punjab raised a hue and cry over his imminent hanging. Chief Minister P.S. Badal rushed to Delhi to persuade the government to postpone the hanging", apart from the judicial challenge to the rejection of the clemency plea holding up the implementation of the sentence. "But for the secrecy in Guru's hanging, it might have taken a similar route," Shyam Khosla argues.

HINDU SIEGE

The "raw deal" being meted out to Hindus has been the foundation of the Sangh Parivar's campaigns. Recent incidents have provided it an opportunity to emphasise this. The stampede at the Allahabad railway station has been used by the Organiser in its editorial to claim "Hindus get a raw deal under UPA-SP" regimes at the Centre and in UP respectively. Both weeklies have trained their guns against UP's Urban Development Minister Azam Khan, in-charge of Kumbh, with the Organiser calling him "a Muslim minister" who could not be expected to be "empathetic, involved and committed to the pilgrimage". Pravin Togadia, in Panchjanya, asks why no Hindu is made chairman of the Haj committee. But it is Home Minister Sushilkumar Shinde's remarks about "saffron terror" that continue to make the Parivar feel under siege. The Organiser has published a "counter probe" by S. Gurumurthy to assert that the UPA is "fabricating terror probe against the RSS" in the Samjhauta case. He cites claims made in the resolution of the Committee on Sanctions of the UNSC, the admission by Pakistan Interior Minister Rehman Malik that "Pakistani terrorists were involved", with a caveat that "some Pakistan-based Islamists had been hired by Lt Colonel Purohit to carry out the Samjhauta Express attack" to reject Shinde's remarks.

Compiled by Ravish Tiwari

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Feb 2013 21:03

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Sou ... -inclusion
For India's 'untouchables,' a rare moment of inclusion

Hindus believe a dip in the waters where the Ganges, Yamuna, and mythical Saraswati rivers meet during India’s Kumbh Mela Hindu religious festival cleanses them of their past sins, giving them a clean slate and helping them attain salvation.hen a group of about 100 women from lowest rank of society, dalits – formerly known as “untouchables” or “manual scavengers” – took a bath at the sacred site, of itself an extremely rare if not unheard of event for members of their community, they came out of the water proclaiming that their low status as “untouchable” had been dissolved.Dalits are known as one of the most discriminated against people in India, generally prohibited from even touching members of higher castes. They are not generally allowed to perform most Hindu rituals, including the Kumbh dip.Yet, when the group emerged from their holy bath at the festival earlier this month, Hindu priests who belong to the highest Hindu caste, welcomed them to mainstream society by blowing conchs, chanting hymns, smearing holy ash on their forehead, and declaring that the women were no onger “untouchables.” It’s the biggest sign yet of changing attitudes about India’s outdated caste system, say experts.“This Kumbh ceremony should be viewed as a bold and successful step toward the egalitarian inclusion of the downtrodden in the religio-social world of the Hindus,” says retired sociology professor Hetukar Jha pointing out the historical importance of the high caste Brahmins supporting the women.Swami Anand Giri, one of the 150 religious leaders present at the ceremony said that the “Liberation of the Untouchables,” marked a landmark day in Hindu history.“Following the liberal tradition of Hinduism we welcome these sisters to our mainstream Hindu society today,” says Mr. Giri, who shared meals with the “just-liberated” women.The Kumbh ceremony has had an overwhelming affect on the women from the scavenger community who, shunned by the high caste Hindus, are still marginalized.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Feb 2013 22:26

Watched two interesting discussions on similar idea.

One is Tinderbox- India & its Neighbours, with MJ Akbar
and the other is What is Home: geography or idea by Burkha Dutt and Sashi Tharoor

The first discussion tries to define the "Idea of Pakistan" where as the second "Idea of India". I request members to watch them to get the context, location of the discussion, sponsors of the discussion, players etc., It is a very interesting moment in social engineering.

In the first discussion MJ Akbar tried to define the Idea of Pakistan and its consequences

Why the two nation-states India and Pakistan diverged in such different paths when we are the same people? Why is India seem to be evolving while Pakistan seem to be sinking into a stagnant swamp. The reason doesn’t lie in the character of India or Pakistan. The reason is, the “Idea of India” is stronger than the Indian whereas the “Idea of Pakistan” is weaker than the Pakistani.

What is the idea of Pakistan?
Pakistan was created around a notion, which has absolutely no relevance and no past. It is built around an idea that religion could be sufficient as the basis of nationalism. And most specifically that Islam could be the sufficient as a basis for nationalism. T

his happened when Jinnah changed the story from “Muslims in Danger” to “Islam in Danger” after ML’s failure to win Muslim majority constituencies in united Punjab.

In the second discussion Sashi Tharoor tried to define the Idea of India and possible challenges

What is the idea of India?

Burkha Dutt: In India, we say there is this idea of Indianness that unites us. We cannot point, like in other countries, to that one thing; not language, the geographical construct is a left over of British, not ethnicity or not one idea other than a pluralistic, secular and democratic society. What were to happen if someone/something interferes with one of these core aspects of with that idea of india?

Sashi Tharoor: India can only be pluralistic, as it is built into the DNA of India and hard-wired in the very nature of our country. If artificial attempts were made to clamp down on it or to assault the pluralism, democracy and the freedoms we have built into for past 65 years of the workings of this constitution, then I am obliged to fight on the other side of the people who are trying to change that.

So what is the roots of this pluralism that separates the vision, paths of these two nations? Hinduism or Christianity or Islam? Would the secular fundamentalists fight against the ideologies that are fundamentally NOT pluralistic and continue to deny that idea? Can secularism be a foundation when it treats the ideologies that pluralistic same as the ideologies that are not pluralistic?

MJA says India did not become Secular because Gandhi is Secular. Gandhi became secular because India is secular. Where was India when Gandhi was formulating his intellect/worldview/secularism?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Feb 2013 22:54

Old one but still good
M J Akbar के साथ सीधी बात Subramanian Swamy (हिंदी)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4TdA6T_SHM

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Feb 2013 23:54

Please watch these two videos to understand the difference between "Selling India" and "Selling the Idea of India".

1. In the first video Sashi Tharoor is selling India to a group of Pakistani power groups.
Heated India Pakistan Debate with Dr. Shashi Tharoor

If interested please read my blog post on this debate - Who is talking to Pakistan – India or INC?

2. In the second video Sri MJ Akbar is selling the "Idea of India" to the white Pakis - USA/Canada. Check from min 50 onwards.
Tinderbox- India & its Neighbours, with MJ Akbar

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 23 Feb 2013 00:08

RamaY wrote:Please watch these two videos to understand the difference between "Selling India" and "Selling the Idea of India".

1. In the first video Sashi Tharoor is selling India to a group of Pakistani power groups.
Heated India Pakistan Debate with Dr. Shashi Tharoor

If interested please read my blog post on this debate - Who is talking to Pakistan – India or INC?

2. In the second video Sri MJ Akbar is selling the "Idea of India" to the white Pakis - USA/Canada. Check from min 50 onwards.
Tinderbox- India & its Neighbours, with MJ Akbar

High imagination by all these speakers.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Feb 2013 00:33

You may want to explain it for bhaktas of secularism. After all the responsibility of Bharat is to help "Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya"

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 23 Feb 2013 01:17

In India, we say there is this idea of Indianness that unites us. We cannot point, like in other countries, to that one thing; not language, the geographical construct is a left over of British, not ethnicity or not one idea other than a pluralistic, secular and democratic society. What were to happen if someone/something interferes with one of these core aspects of with that idea of india?

I was laughing on the floor.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Feb 2013 01:24

The funny thing is no body's intellect, erudition, honest and nationalism in that room was able to speak the truth about the 800lb gorilla in the room - The Hinduism and Hindu/Indian ethnicity.

That is why ST found everyone, stretching from historic Burma to Afghanistan, who went to Hajj called Hindustanis in pre-Indian times.

That ethnicity and cultural identity were same before the advent of Islam and Christianity into the sub-continent. The seers of independent India made it India (as if this is not the name given by foreigners) to pacify the religious minorities.

MJA says (answering some Sindhi) sub-continental Muslims got Pakistan, Bengali linguistic ethnicity got them Bangladesh. But Hindus did not get India.

Secularists got India for themselves.