Aero India 2013

maz · Post by **maz** » 10 Feb 2013 05:45

Philip, thanks. It is at least 45 a/c in total. 7 more Mig29K are slated for delivery in 2013 according to Rosoboronexport so that is a sign that the pipeline is being filled rapidly. A second Mig 29K sqn is to be stood up at NAS Dega so I imagine this will begin by 2014 or earlier.

I am wondering how many of the second batch are two seaters?

In fact, I saw one report that mentioned 80 mig29K/KUB in all but this was when IAC2 & 3 were to be STOBAR. But, with the change to a CATOBAR, seems the Navyhas moved onto another type of f/w ftr as per RfI issued some years ago. It will be interesting to see what platform is selected by DAA at NHQ. Will it be the Rafale?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 06:19

Here is a small Laser Designation pod from the BEL stall and another equally small EO ball that can go on small helos. This has suddenly appeared this yar in the BEL stall as "made in/made by BEL". Is this some licence assembled screwdriver stuff or what?

LDP -just see how small it is compared with laptop

Stabilized EO ball

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 06:23

HAL: This is a high pressure cylinder inside the intestines of an AL 31 - the teeth carry the turbine blades. If this has been made in HAL from raw material I must say the finish is impressive. I saw a lot more great looking finished stuff this year from Indian cos than the ragtag stuff of earlier years

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 10 Feb 2013 06:35

Don't trust BEL it could be CKD
I saw in last march Defexpo the stuff BEL claims home made but its just Martha baker ready cake mix just add eggs supplied and the icing as instructed.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 10 Feb 2013 06:50

This has been the worst Aero India till date.... I was hoping to see more vids and pics.

Come on people clicky more and please post.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 10 Feb 2013 06:58

James B wrote:Best Video of Aero India 2013 so far. Its short but sweet. Watch in full HD (1080p)

Tejas kahan hai

Though video is kickass.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 07:13

pentaiah wrote:Don't trust BEL it could be CKD
I saw in last march Defexpo the stuff BEL claims home made but its just Martha baker ready cake mix just add eggs supplied and the icing as instructed.

Yes the finished product looks like that onlee. Who is supplying the gyro/servo for stabilization? Who is supplying the housing/casing? Who is making the lenses/mirrors? Who is supplying the electronics. Is BEL doing more than assembling and soldering?

The reason I point this out is that this may be a case of PSU white lie in Aero India which is same as nasty black lie in terms of defence production.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 10 Feb 2013 09:27

shiv wrote:Here is a small Laser Designation pod from the BEL stall and another equally small EO ball that can go on small helos. This has suddenly appeared this yar in the BEL stall as "made in/made by BEL". Is this some licence assembled screwdriver stuff or what?

LDP -just see how small it is compared with laptop

Shiv, I asked BEL folks about this. The LDP is a scaled down mock up and BEL is just the production agency. The LDP is from Thales. Apart from manf, BEL has no role in design & development. The gentlemen didn't even know the name of LDP. I asked him if it was Domacles...he said he is not sure since they only manf them.

I did not deep dive in to manf questions. Sorry

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 10 Feb 2013 09:33

The riveting or fastening on BEL made stuff looks awful but going GOST ( Russian ) standards it looks fine after all like good ol Nikita ugly but may be functional

Meanwhile here is an interesting article to understand fastening and riveting of aero foil aero dynamic surfaces

http://www.oup.com/us/static/companion. ... ter_19.pdf

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Feb 2013 10:04

Zynda,the desi Schilka upgrades had two missiles,one each on either side unlike in Russian upgrades which had 4
,two each at the rear.I don't know why the IA doesn't want it,as it gives a 5km -10km depending upon the missile,anti-air capability at low cost.

The outstanding success appears to be CABS/Embraer's AEW bird.If the same radar module can be accommodated on a larger aircraft,say of the MTA size in the future,it will have better range and endurance and be able to accommodate more operators and consoles.Given the huge costs of AEW/AWACS aircraft,this will be a great addition to the small number of AWACS that we have or plan to have.

Unlike earlier air shows,there was little evidence of the medium maritime ASW/patrol contenders in detail.There is a large order out for the same for both the CG and IN.

The Thales dipping sonar for helos was in evidence,but a couple spent so much time with the boffin that I couldn't wait.I had hoped to ask about the Scorpene sonar,etc.Can someone check it out if poss.

Iron dome has been given the thumbs down by ACM Browne.Rightly so.It's range is too small and can be defeated by saturation attacks of mortars,etc.,using multiple /fragmented large mortar shells.Each launcher can carry 20 small missiles,which will get easily exhausted.However,in the Israeli context,where every life saved is a massive achievement,it reduces the amount of damage that the Hiz/Hamas can achieve.

Even the US exhibitors appeared to be downsized.Lockheed's ultra-endurance AEW blimp model was not here unlike last time.That we are now able to build our own aerostats is a welcome achievement,as these are cost-effective AEW options,but suffer the vagaries of weather conditions which restrict their use.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 10 Feb 2013 10:07

Brochure time:
Astra & Brahmos:

Nag:

IFF stuff:

ADE Aerostat Info:

ADE Aircraft Arresting Barrier:

ADE - Combat Free Fall System:

ADE - CADS:

ADE - Parachutes

Please let me know if you need thumb nails instead of full image.

member_24612 · Post by **member_24612** » 10 Feb 2013 10:10

Good Morning Everyone!

This is Vivek Manvi - an aviation photographer from Mumbai and a newbie on this wonderful forum. I have been following the forum and the website from the sidelines for quite some time.

I guess Aero India 2013 prompted me to finally join!

Without further ado, here's presenting my first set of photos from Aero India. Enjoy!

French Air Force Dassault Rafale B

IAF Su-30MKI

IAF Mi-17 V5

IAF Tejas (LSP-02)

IAF Embraer AEW&C. Loved this bird!

IAF Dhruv Sarang team

Russian Knights Sukhoi Su-27s

Seychelles Air Force Dornier 228

IAF LCH TD-01

USAF F-16CJ Block 50

Cheers!
Vivek

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 10 Feb 2013 10:21

^Those are some awesome clicks Vivek ji.

Especially LCA Tejas

Vamsi.R · Post by **Vamsi.R** » 10 Feb 2013 10:38

yesterday was my 1st ever aero india visit and loved it immensely !! F-16 was really amazing ..display teams were outstanding ..short of words to explain my experience really :d

srin · Post by **srin** » 10 Feb 2013 11:02

Abhibhushan wrote:OK. The Tigermoth got pushed into the flight line by about midday and I managed to get near it. I also managed to get photographed near it kind curtesy of the IAF and some media photographers. Alas, no Rakshaks managed to catch up with me.

A very nice morning for me. The IAF was generous to me with love and affection.

It was reported in Hindu today - last page - and with photo too !

vic · Post by **vic** » 10 Feb 2013 11:17

shiv wrote:
pentaiah wrote:Don't trust BEL it could be CKD
I saw in last march Defexpo the stuff BEL claims home made but its just Martha baker ready cake mix just add eggs supplied and the icing as instructed.
Yes the finished product looks like that onlee. Who is supplying the gyro/servo for stabilization? Who is supplying the housing/casing? Who is making the lenses/mirrors? Who is supplying the electronics. Is BEL doing more than assembling and soldering?

The reason I point this out is that this may be a case of PSU white lie in Aero India which is same as nasty black lie in terms of defence production.

OMG! At last indigenisation gang has captured and converted you! Anyway if BEL had an ingenious product then IAF would not have issued tenders for LDPs. It is just an attempt by some foreign vendor to push products through DPSU by fake JV no tender lot of bribe route

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Feb 2013 11:37

vic wrote:<SNIP>OMG! At last indigenisation gang has captured and converted you! Anyway if BEL had an ingenious product then IAF would not have issued tenders for LDPs. It is just an attempt by some foreign vendor to push products through DPSU by fake JV no tender lot of bribe route

Vic - I am actually starting to believe all that you've been saying about the 'indigenous' development by the DPSU in the country. Lot of it is simply screw-driver stuff where DPSU are exploiting their monopoly and status as part of MOD. There is no learning and gaining of any knowledge of any sort. One motive to use this screw-driver route could be to bring the unit cost down - after all, manufacturing is going to be relatively cheap in India. But I doubt even if that is the case - apart from the usual greased palms, it seems MOD is making money at the expense of the Services.

maz · Post by **maz** » 10 Feb 2013 13:05

Shiv, the EO pod is an Israeli COMPASS. Therefore, I think the LDP has to be a BEL 'screwdriver tech' or better still, 'label tech' as they discovered massive efficiency gains after lots of 'kaizen/ continuous improvement' activities. Obviously, cycle time is greatly improved when affixing a BEL/Made in India label on a fully assembled article. This is often the state of the Offsets business.

More seriously, i wonder if the LDP in question is the Litening pod or a derivative thereof of Israeli provenance? Apparently the Litening in use by the IAF is superior to the Thales Damocles according to those that use these things.

Mr Manvi, thank you very much for your most excellent pix.

Zynda, you have made my day (and those of many others too)!

The CADS is key to stand off cargo delivery. The USAF uses them to deliver large payloads - reportedly even an Abrams - using guided delivery systems with very low CEP from stand off distances in order to avoid MANPADs when approaching DZs in hostile territory.

Even though many aircraft projects are muddling along, there is measurable progress on less visible but crucial projects.

One comment I must make is the uther lack of a reality check with the powers that be who think it is OK to literally throw away tons of money on white elepphant projects like the National Commuter Airplane. Look at where Saras is today. The Saras is not commercially viable even if tech issues were resolved satisfactorily. It is sheer lunacy to waste money on 2 commuter plane projects when established global players are struggling to make a profit in what is very crowded market. Simplest solution is go in with the likes of Embraer and do JV's.

Maybe HAL should have been developing a good basic trainer plane all this time instead of trying to attach parachutes to HPT 32s. Why wait to launch the HTT40 when therei s no market? Throwing away more money and resources on yet another non viable project.

There needs to be a national long term roadmap for the aerospace industry which is based on reality checks, not wishful thinking. Maybe the way forward is meaningful JV with the intent to absorb design features and intent. Even so, no one will part with their latest technology. As such, high tech has to be acquired the hard way - that is to say, by all means necessary ala Chinese style. Key to developing high tech is understanding the fundamental physics along with materials engineering and the production engineering. I think there has been much progress and knowledge learnt from the many failures and successes also.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 13:59

vic wrote: OMG! At last indigenisation gang has captured and converted you! Anyway if BEL had an ingenious product then IAF would not have issued tenders for LDPs. It is just an attempt by some foreign vendor to push products through DPSU by fake JV no tender lot of bribe route

No there is a point I want to make here.

When HAL MiG 27 is called "Bahadur" no one is fooled. Everyone knows that it is Bahadurski But when BEL puts a fantastic looking LDP out of the blue that wasn't even in conceptual stage last time then one must ask if anything is being hidden by removing the OEM's label.

The question that comes to my mind is whether BEL supplies this to the IAF as a BEL product. Would any Vayusena end user ask idiotic questions like me: "Who made the lenses/servo" etc? The IAF will use it and if it fails they will ask BEL and expect BEL to sort it out. Then BEL will ask Israelis who will say we are shutting down the line. So BEL will ask IAF "Please tell us the next 20 years requirement of spares for this LDP, we have to order now onlee" and IAF guy's jaw will drop and his eyes will pop out justifiably just like the Air Commodore's speech.

It would be better if BEL was open and said "This is an Israeli pod in BEL stall." After all th private company Alpha systems does not manufacture the corner shot weapon. They were displaying it in their stall and were acting as sales people for Israelis If BEL is doing the same they might as well let Indians know the truth rather than this nudge nudge bluff.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Feb 2013 15:07

This is the summary of the presentation given and key points made by the IAF Maintenance officer. This is not an exact copy as i have paraphrased what he was conveying:

- System integrator :
IAF having to deal with multiple agencies supplying sub-components of a system as against the integrator who supplied the product to them.
Example quoted – SRE Air traffic Control Radar.

- Sub-Optimal Performance of Sub-Components:
Some of the Sub-Components do not work as per the requirement of the overall system.
IAF cannot run after manufacturer of each sub-component for rectification of errors.
Example – Rohini Radar

- Life Cycle Support :
Indian OEM should be able to pro-actively support the products during their service
Example – “Cyclic Control Saturation Warning” for ALH took five years to come out. Here again, the fleet implementation is pending.

- Technology Obsolescence - this is where one of the LCA and ASR revision comment came into picture.

- Maintainability:
Example – Turn-Around Time (TAT) for ALH is 7-8 months (Comment: As per CAG Report 2010, HAL has yet to establish a Repair and Overhaul (ROH) facility for ALH in-spite of it being budgeted for and sanctioned)

- Neglect of Support Equipment:
Equal importance needs to be assigned to the support equipment for major weapon system. As not doing so, affects the performance of the main weapon system.
Example – Support vehicles and equipment to the Rohini Radar System have been found wanting in performance effecting the exploitation of the main radar itself.

- Poor-performance of proven systems:
Proven systems offered by DPSUs suffer from performance short-fall post induction
Example – New ALH engines found with metal engines
Example – Oil cooler shaft failure on ALH grounding the entire fleet. Sub-system replaced on entire fleet but problem solution still not found by HAL.
Example – > 1300 cases High Powered Amplifier failure on SRE ATCR.

- Vendor & Alternate Support Development
Continued dependence on OEM after induction
Reluctance to develop indigenous support base
Example – ALH inducted in 2002 but till take 70 mission critical components are sourced from foreign OEMs
Example – No ROH facility for Cheetal helicopter in spite of engine being similar to ALH.
Example – Rohini and SRE ATCR

- Transfer of Technology
Funds for TOT indicated in the initial contract
But dependence on the OEM continues year after year, sometimes for the entire life cycle of product.
Cases referred to OEM even for minor issues
Fresh contracts are asked to be signed for any new area of engagement
Issues – Delay and cost overruns

- “Your Problem Now” Approach
Inadequate foresight on part of DSPSU – only bothered with handing over the system. All problems are referred to either OEM or back to IAF. No solution from DPSUs.
Example – Product support promised for Chetak/Cheetah/Cheetal Helicopters by DPSU. But couple of days after the meeting, DPSU approached IAF asking them to place an order for 25 year worth of main rotor blade requirement as OEM (Eurocopter) was closing down the manufacturing facility.
In spite of these helicopters being in service with the Services for 25+ years, the main integrator (DPSU) did not bother to set-up domestic facility. Till date, no ROH or manufacturing facility has been set-up by HAL for these choppers.
And even though they knew that Eurocopter as shutting down the manufacturing plant, they were willing to supply IA with these choppers.

- LCA Comment:
Stand along performance of sub-systems is excellent.
However, on integration, there is drop in reliability.
Approximately 50% LRUs have been indigenized – 50% more to go.
Testers and documentation not ready yet.

- Way Ahead
Product support group has been formed for LCA

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Feb 2013 16:07

What do they mean by Testers for LCA is not ready , They mean TP or is it related to some maintenance documentation ? I remember the HAL lady arguing with the IAF officer with issue of testers.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 10 Feb 2013 16:14

rajanb wrote:Thanks Shiv.

About the LCA and other demos. I remember that there was a cap on the G's that an a/c could carry out at Aero India. It was supposed to be 5Gs. Most airshows specify a cap.

Those who were lucky enough to see the trails over HAL airport and saw it also at Aero India would, perhaps, see a marked difference in the two?

Anyone care to comment? The point I am trying to make is that we jingoes would never get to see the LCA's manouevreability at an airshow. Only when the air warriors are flying it, pushing it to extended flight envelopes.

In AI 2011, the LCA, in one of the displays, went to 8G for which it was not cleared. It was cleared to 7G. So there is no G cap on the LCA for AI but a G cap in terms of what is cleared due to testing.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 10 Feb 2013 16:31

Product support for ALH being non-existent is a long standing IAF grudge. I recollect in AI 09, a Sarang dude mentioning that turnaround time for any ALH that goes back to HAL at 6+ months which sure affects operational readiness. FWIW.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 16:47

vivekman wrote:Good Morning Everyone!

This is Vivek Manvi - an aviation photographer from Mumbai and a newbie on this wonderful forum. I have been following the forum and the website from the sidelines for quite some time.

I guess Aero India 2013 prompted me to finally join!

The most beautiful pics yet!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 17:46

Zynda wrote:
Please let me know if you need thumb nails instead of full image.

No You deserve credit for the trouble you have taken to scan them to make them readable and yet not wide enough to screw the formatting. Thanks

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 18:14

This time (unlike previous airshows) I saw some seriously good looking finished components. Of the two below - one is from HAL and the other a private co - Lakshmi Machine Tools

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Feb 2013 18:21

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Feb 2013 18:42

shiv wrote:Here is a small Laser Designation pod from the BEL stall and another equally small EO ball that can go on small helos. This has suddenly appeared this yar in the BEL stall as "made in/made by BEL". Is this some licence assembled screwdriver stuff or what?

Its the French Damocles pod, X-posting from the "Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments" thread:-

VinodTK wrote:Indian Selection of Future Targeting Pod in 2013
India has floated a tender for the delivery of more than 100 advanced targeting pods for its strike fighters, Two systems are under consideration – the French Damocles pod, already employed on Mirage 2000 and Rafale, offered by Thales of France, that has teamed with Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) for this program, and the Israeli Litening, the latest version of the targeting pod developed by RAFAEL.<snip>

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 10 Feb 2013 18:57

Guys,
Here are some stall sets:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/AeroIndia2013/

Will update more in 24 hrs

cheers

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 10 Feb 2013 18:59

In Def Expo in pragati maidan last feb another dying nava earns ITi had radio sets with encrypted msg capability which had ITI name plate riveted to the equipment and upon asking the person who manning the stal sheepishly admited that it was imported from Austria or was it Australia
Shiv ji is 100 percent correct in his thoughts analysis and possible scenarios

vic · Post by **vic** » 10 Feb 2013 19:26

Using DPSUs to push imported products is a source of massive corruption read muullaah!

James B · Post by **James B** » 10 Feb 2013 21:50

James B · Post by **James B** » 10 Feb 2013 21:51

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 10 Feb 2013 21:58

SUPERB pics James saar!

Jingo khush hua!

James B · Post by **James B** » 10 Feb 2013 22:25

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 10 Feb 2013 22:52

holy shit... James B great stuff.

I don't know what happened to BRF boys - everybody has gone and got some serious photo gear and taken lessons or what!!! Buggers are cutting loose all over the place!!!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 10 Feb 2013 22:56

Guys chk out this "optical illusion" or it may just be me... In the photo of the angled flying USAF C17 (or whatever) taken by James B, doesn't the tail fin look like it's knocked over a little to one side? Weird .. It's just the angle of the photo of course, but to me it looks like that.

James B · Post by **James B** » 10 Feb 2013 22:59

JE Menon wrote:Guys chk out this "optical illusion" or it may just be me... In the photo of the angled flying USAF C17 (or whatever) taken by James B, doesn't the tail fin look like it's knocked over a little to one side? Weird .. It's just the angle of the photo of course, but to me it looks like that.

Saar, photos are not taken by me but a person I know. The video I posted earlier was by the same person.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 10 Feb 2013 23:13

OK Ok... I was wondering at the sudden explosion of hidden talent on BRF. Thanks for clarifying.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 10 Feb 2013 23:15

You ain't seen nothin yet!