Aero India 2013

[member_22539]

arun a word of caution


before the admins do their job on you


follow Lilos advice

I know, just me losing control, but it would be disingenuous of me to edit at this point. I usually don't respond, but this whole AI 2013 thing has been an experience of some people being unfair in their criticism. I will not post on this matter again any time soon, for my own good.

[Picklu]

My pictures

https://picasaweb.google.com/1079231716 ... directlink

sorry for many similar ones but trying them out in slideshow mode gives a sense of motion.

[Indranil]

Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) glass cockpit on display at Aero India 2013. Photo Credit: Vijainder K Thakkur
Seen above is a spectacular HDR photograph of the LUH Glass Cockpit

^^^ Thats is the Dornier 228 NG cockpit.

LUH cockpit looks like this.

[Philip]

Arun,watch your lingo,you miserable cheapo.Where do you dip your pen,in the gutter or the sewer? Admins,pl. teach this poster some manners.The personal attacks by ignoramuses is nauseating.I do not attack anyone personally and do not expect anyone to do the same to me.By all means criticise my viewpoint objectively but to insinuate that I am being paid for my viewpoint is criminal.

Lilo,I've been to every Air Show from the very first one and seen the same models,heard the same optimistic talk on several projects yet to come to fruition and heard the end users frustration at waiting and waiting.You neither have read all my posts over a decade+.So don't get personal.In time you will be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff.Those of us who were at an A-I get-together aeons ago (8 yrs?),can remember Rakesh Sharma then an LCA test pilot,warning us not to get too optimistic about the LCA's induction as there was a mountain of testing ahead which would take years .

Kartik,that was a very illuminating post,you were fortunate that it was an IN officer part of the project at hand .Did he give an approximate time frame for NLCA1/2s development? As he/you have said,there is a huge amount of redesign and testing required to accommodate a new engine,which is why the IN is keeping its options open for another fighter for IAC-2. Was there any mention when LCA MK-2 for the IAF would fly?

One terribly irritating item was the single record used throughout the day by the loudspeaker.It was acoustic torture,a desi version of the Chines water torture!

[Karan M]

Kapil - thanks for the pics! Any update?

Kartik- superb posts. Looks like you had a great time. Did you get the chance to speak with anyone else?
Judging by your posts, the IN is avoiding the complex Hybrid MMR exercise and directly employing the same fit as on the LUSH Sea Harrier upgrade (ELTA 2032 + Derby combo) for a proven result.

[Karan M]

Philip, interesting so you state that you have gone to every Aero Show, and nothing's changed. If that statement is not revealing, then what else is..

Heres some of what was clearly displayed this year..

- Indian servocontrol firms making all the critical control systems for a variety of radar programs
- Indian firms coming up with their own digital display systems including DMGs, two handpicked by ADA
- RLG-INS assemblies, apparently now in production
- First DARE reveal of the engineering sets for their new EWS for MiG-29, MiG-27, LCA
- Critical antennae made entirely by pvt vendors and supplied to services/labs
- Indian firms able to make critical systems like actuators for showpiece programs like the Su-30 MKI

....
A huge change from a decade back
...

Clearly none of this will even register with you unless some journalist runs a half baked story in AWST or some such journal, whereupon you repeat it. Frankly, for all your talk of contacts, and this and that, you waste all of it & know little of what progress is or what metrics to evaluate it by.

And then there is your typical gratuitous attempt to discount Kartik's upbeat post about the NLCA & the IN support for it, via this usual 1-liner : "As he/you have said,there is a huge amount of redesign and testing required to accommodate a new engine, which is why the IN is keeping its options open for another fighter for IAC-2.

So, if you aren't being paid for your opinion, perhaps you should be..skepticism when it comes to Indian programs would be one thing, but the manner in which you run them down time & again, whereas always defending all things Russian is a sight to behold!!

[Karan M]

Shiv, the EO pod is an Israeli COMPASS. Therefore, I think the LDP has to be a BEL 'screwdriver tech' or better still, 'label tech' as they discovered massive efficiency gains after lots of 'kaizen/ continuous improvement' activities. Obviously, cycle time is greatly improved when affixing a BEL/Made in India label on a fully assembled article. This is often the state of the Offsets business.

It is the COMPASS and its been chosen both for the Rudra & LCH apparently, and is also intended for the Naval helicopter program. BEL's role will be to assist in integration with Indian airframes etc., but may extend to local assembly of the system & repair/OH of aggregates.

More seriously, i wonder if the LDP in question is the Litening pod or a derivative thereof of Israeli provenance? Apparently the Litening in use by the IAF is superior to the Thales Damocles according to those that use these things.

Its the Damocles from France, currently in use on the Rafale, but itself due for replacement with a brand new pod within the next decade with an entirely new higher resolution IR matrix for better discrimination of targets at range.

One comment I must make is the uther lack of a reality check with the powers that be who think it is OK to literally throw away tons of money on white elepphant projects like the National Commuter Airplane. Look at where Saras is today. The Saras is not commercially viable even if tech issues were resolved satisfactorily. It is sheer lunacy to waste money on 2 commuter plane projects when established global players are struggling to make a profit in what is very crowded market. Simplest solution is go in with the likes of Embraer and do JV's.

Problem with Embraer et al is that they are good in overall design but lack systems capabilities within Brazil. They source these items from WW partners. Again, something which India aims to cross. Other thing is that public claims apart, nobody aims to part with sensitive IP & speed up time to market for a possible competitor down the road. The private sector remains optimistic about actively marketing and returning a profit on such civil projects.

The aim is to build a national aerospace ecosystem, which means such projects do have their utility, especially if helmed by hitherto underutilized private sector entities. The larger goal was to develop systems suppliers who could seamlessly switch from programs as they would have developed core competencies in items like displays (integrated with flight control), or radios or landing gear aggregates etc.

Commercial success is of course a good thing, but somewhere along the way, strategic requirements also matter. A pretty well know fact that both ARJ-21 and C-919 (COMAC) are pretty much PRC "supported" in terms of getting "orders" and its been a mandate for domestic airlines to support these programs somehow.

Unfortunately, the Indian effort for the larger regional commuter, the more ambitious one, was being helmed by Shri Madhavan Nair - with his controversial falling out with the powers that be, the entire civil aircraft project seems destined for delays. Plus current economic issues mean the GOI wont exactly open its purse to these programs and just support them for a private firm to take a windfall. A lot of paperwork will be done to find who will lead these and how it will translate to a partnership. Perhaps the Avro replacement program could lead to a private firm developing the capabilities.

Maybe HAL should have been developing a good basic trainer plane all this time instead of trying to attach parachutes to HPT 32s. Why wait to launch the HTT40 when therei s no market? Throwing away more money and resources on yet another non viable project.

Unfortunately, India's critical weakness in engine tech ensured the HPT-32 would remain where it was. Attempts to get Lycoming to address the fuel starvation issue went nowhere.

There needs to be a national long term roadmap for the aerospace industry which is based on reality checks, not wishful thinking. Maybe the way forward is meaningful JV with the intent to absorb design features and intent. Even so, no one will part with their latest technology. As such, high tech has to be acquired the hard way - that is to say, by all means necessary ala Chinese style. Key to developing high tech is understanding the fundamental physics along with materials engineering and the production engineering. I think there has been much progress and knowledge learnt from the many failures and successes also.

Agreed, big challenge is to have a coordinated plan across the civil-military spectrum for systems. The amount of waste/duplication & sheer haphazard planning is sad.

We import systems for which sufficient demand exists to make local units.

[Karan M]

Great post Karthik. So, I was misled about OBOGS present on LCA Mk.1 by DRDO folks. Sigh

I guess we must have spoken to the same person at ADA stall. The gentleman I spoke with had recently joined ADA and was a technical officer in IN. I remember him mentioning about Barak and extolling Israeli capability. When I asked him about Derby, he said Israeli radar is good and BVR firing should happen without any issues. Very nice person

Zynda, thanks for your efforts as well. Read your posts with interest!

Very interesting nuggets there about sonars and the ESM systems.

I wonder whether you had the opportunity to visit the Alpha stall or Astra stalls. Both were set up by ex BEL folk & are all set to give PSUs a good run for their money. They spend a substantial chunk of their money on R&D for programs to drive cooperation with DRDO etc, but have also signed a bunch of JVs with Italian, Israeli & other firms. Alpha in particular was in line to assemble, support their products.

They were on their way (supposedly) to build jamming pods for the IAF. Wonder whether that ever happened.

[pentaiah]

Philip Saar ji has been in this forum for the last 16 years.
And he is absolutely right on what he has posted. Most of the public sector have been groomed to assemble a CKD and riviet their name plate.

If you have Arun have issues come up with experience of Indian PSUs and prov e your point he wrong on every count. That would be revealing at minimum and at maximum it would be education to all of us.
Thanks

[SagarAg]

^ ^

[JE Menon]

This thread is abt AI 2013.
Cut out the effing personal attacks.
Philip is a longstanding member and sometime admin on brf. And his knowledge on a couple of subjects including the IN is unmatched.
Self administering of Chill pills recommended or it will be bradministered.

[Karan M]

Hi Pentaiah,

Philip did not post about PSUs alone & nor was the reply about PSUs alone. A lot of what he posted was and is hyperbole even otherwise. After a while its obvious to anyone who visits Aero India (been to several) or follows the progress of Indian industry from where it was in the 1990s to today.

As regards educational & so forth, there are enough details regarding where Indian aerospace is now - many of them brought out in Kartiks post itself, but even otherwise, archived across the multiple discussions.

Given JEMs point on the matter - not really interested in discussing this anymore.

[Karan M]

Regarding Aero India & discussions etc.

Here are a few more:

- AWACS India project is apparently sanctioned with a Rs 4K-5K Crore budget. Will be Phalcon sized, no platform identified as of yet. Tech demo for current AEW&CS has been up & running for past couple of years now. Next aim is to complete EMI/EMC tests and complete the OR for the entire platform. Test process should take an year. Chances of a few more being ordered to meet immediate needs even as AWACS India matures.

-IN is in the market for around 6 AEW&C

- GTRE Kaveri follow on is definitely > 100 Kn. Incidentally, Navy is serious about the KMGT (Marine Gas Turbine) and a MK2 variant is being developed for them, with better lifecycle than the first which was more of a POC demo

- Super 30 program is still under negotiation for fitment of specific items etc. Russians are attempting to convince the IAF to standardize ASAP. IAF meanwhile is big on AESA. Apparently every radar vendor out there is looking towards India (not too happy about Indian progress either, as each program costs hundreds of millions to develop and export customers are hard to find, so expect deals to be pushed now when there is a chance to get them through). IAF may still standardize on the upgraded PESA/ then AESA approach by NIIP, but future is clear, IAF wants AESA whenever possible

- Two new LRDE projects underway, a mobile truck mounted AESA (Ashwin) and a mobile MMR for the Army (C Band). XV-2004 for the Navy has cleared trials, is in production.

- A long range Nag variant (with MMW) sensor is in the works for fixed aircraft/fighters. Basically a sort of desi-Hellfire/Brimstone.

- Follow on aerostat order for IAF underway (3-4 LR Aerostats) with multi-sensor package, long range radar/ELINT/COMINT. Huge jump ahead for AF, given size of deal, probably later in the year. Have ranges = AWACS at a fraction of the cost

- IAF is also upgrading its sensor network in a big way, software defined radios are being procured for the entire AF. Indian PSUs & pvt firms (both with international partners) are competing. SDRs can be reprogrammed to keep apace with changing encryption/voice/data waveforms.

-Israelis given request to speed up on LR/MRSAM programs. They have been tending more to their local ones. They now claim revised schedule will be adhered to, etc etc. Radars et al will be assembled by BEL. Army a possible procurer for its MRSAM requirement as that has gone nowhere. But strict mobility requirements, tracked systems are what the Army is interested in. Baseline MRSAM is on trucks. So Army wants an off the shelf system, proven already.

-Much slagging between VSHORAD competitors - Mistral versus RBS-70NG. Latter says cant be jammed. Former says, twitch and you miss. Both applying for Army requirement to replace obsolete Iglas. Interestingly, both have variants in service with Pakistan. TOT and production at BDL is also expected but exact numbers not specified.

Incidentally, DARE asked why focus on "unified everything" as versus podded systems, state its IAF requirement to have internal suites. Were not particularly bothered about MMRCA as they believe their own programs are progressing.

[Nick_S]

Thanks a lot for those informative posts Kartik & KaranM.

Also, am hoping someone asked about or could ask about the current status of LSP-8, the SP-1 & 2 and especially the current production line status.

----

KaranM, which radar is that XV-2004? Is that the one for N-ALH? I thought that N-ALH program was cancelled.

[Karan M]

Thanks...a bit of context, if it doesn't bore you.. Navy approached LRDE for making a lightweight naval radar with ISAR tech, plus all A2A and A2S modes required. LRDE first made SV-2000, thats supervision-2000, had it clear trials, and went onto the next XV-2004 which features ISAR (you can literally "image" a ship and run it against a database for identification). XV-2004 is extra vision 2004. Its intended for "naval platforms" and can be fitted to both helicopters and light aircraft. I am thinking the former (russian kamovs) as Do-228s all already have the Israeli 2032 radar. Seakings, can handle larger heavier radars, tender is supposedly out looking for AESAs like Selex Seaspray. AESAs as you'd know come with heavier weight (Array and cooling) plus power requirements for their greater performance (range, reliability & beam control).

[Philip]

Karan,nothing much has changed in the manner in which the air shows have been conducted,not in the developments.True,we see new desi protoypes/products,but if you see how many years it took for Akash to be commissioned,and Nag,still to be refined,you 'll understand the frustration and time lost and wonder whether some of these weapon systems will be obsolete when perfected.Some prestigious projects are still in their excruciating "labour" stage.Some projects appeared and disappeared.Perhaps the best development has been the emergence of pvt. Indian industry.I mentioned the UMS micro gas turbine,perfect for our missiles/UAVs.Mahindras and others are making serious investments into aerospace.Brahmos has been the most spectacular success ,along with the strat. and tactical missiles.

The helo div. of HAL appears to be better at success than the aircraft div.,as far as developing a new system is concerned.While we are able to build under licence/assemble Sukhois,Jags,etc.,w eare unable to design a basic trainer! The ALH (except for the naval version) ,LCH and other variants of helos in production are no small achievement,but if we are informed correctly,support has to be improved.We still import heavy and med. sized helos (MI-17Vs),naval helos and also light helos.With requirements in the hundreds,perhaps JVs for the same should be set up first before we develop our own.

There has been a lot of success at radars,avionics,command systems,etc. Our command systems have formerly been imported.I knew a gent to was posted abroad to develop/acquire the same,as well as evaluate a particular missile (now widely used),and got kicked in the backside for calling Trishul a turkey,allegedly losing promotion for daring to take on the DRDO! Our problem is that while we develop parts/components successfully,integrating them into a complete weapon system has proved difficult.

Naval sonars and other systems like anti-T decoys ,plus desi heavyweight torpedoes have arrived.We need hard-kill systems to defeat the newer ultra endurance torpedoes which have hours of endurance and keep on attacking again and again.Now we've put out a Rq for a new firang anti-ship med. ranged missile,that too subsonic! Why? When we've co-developed BMos why couldn't we have designed a smaller lower ranged BMos,or is it just too expensive.I don't understand the logic.Importing an inferior firang missile,albeit smaller for our missile craft and "K" class missile corvettes,when we have Brahmos at hand.

I look at the UAV scenario.In over a decade,we've repeatedly shown only Lakshaya as a product,barring a few new designs-Rustom,etc.In that time,the global UAV/UCAV inventory has exploded.Just see how many new UAVs/UCAVs Israel is producing.Not to mention China's massive strides.The naval UAV based upon the Chetak has been apparently dumped.Pak has acquired Swedish UAV for naval applications.The number of our Israeli naval UAVs-land based too,is insignificant.This is an area which should've been opened up to Indian pvt. industry.There lies the hope for the future.

PSU's cannot be parasites feeding upon Indian defence in perpetuity.AKAs and ACM Browne's statements at the inauguration are good enough for anyone to know that all is not hunky-dory with the desi PSU def. sector.

PS:Karan,no disrespect to Kartik and his illuminating post on the NLCA.He himself has said that he was told that a LOT of redesign is needed,borne out by much reportage.Both MK-2 s are going to go through the testing mill again.The extra weight of the landing gear is clearly a problem.Incidentally,UMS also had landing gear on display developed by their team.Unless there is a given timeframe for arrival of the same,the IN is going to exercise its firang option.I asked whether the time frame was given to him.

[Karan M]

Also number of JVs signed with local private firms is staggering. They are competing for pretty much every deal out there.

The 26% FDI being an issue is absolute bunkum beyond a point and clearly being driven by firms who want to set up subsidiaries in India without transferring IP.

Having said that, jury's still out on how much "local content" will be in these JV items being made by local-Indian firms. DPP mentions 30% by value for Buy (Indian) segment, and 50%, for Buy and Make (India) which is what a lot of these deals will go for. Hopefully, it will be better than what the PSUs are being slagged for. Hearing both sides of the coin. Some private vendors - gung ho and confident about crossing/surpassing DPP requirements and others more circumspect. Example cited to an acquaintance - IAFs favorite Litening pod, apparently much of the stuff in that comes from outside Israel, and IAI integrates it inhouse with some of their own LRUs and their custom software.

A lot of these companies have the potential to become Tier 2 firms in their own right, within the decade (system manufacturers). Apparently DRDO Chief Vks said as much at a media meet, saying in effect, "more the better" as needs are many.

Large firms (L&T/TATA/M&M/BharatForge/PunjjL) are lobbying the Govt heavily for a level playing field to become the next Tier 1s. Like it or not, the era of DPSUs controlling the defence manufacturing industry is drawing to a close and there will be a lot of competition.

What remains to be seen is whether these firms will significantly indigenize or take the easier way out of repackaging their foreign collaborators work. L&T/TATA cite their continuing work with DRDO plus subcontracts for existing national programs as validation for engineering capability across collaboration and manufacture, both and state it gives them the edge for Buy (India), Buy & Make (India) and even the crucial strategic Make category.

Also want integrated Govt commission for aeronautics to work with industry for long term S&T plan and give it the right funds to develop capabilities across the sector. Karnataka has also announced a big plan for an Aero SEZ in the state.

[vina]

- AWACS India project is apparently sanctioned with a Rs 4K-5K Crore budget. Will be Phalcon sized, no platform identified as of yet. Tech demo for current AEW&CS has been up & running for past couple of years now. Next aim is to complete EMI/EMC tests and complete the OR for the entire platform. Test process should take an year. Chances of a few more being ordered to meet immediate needs even as AWACS India matures.

The DRDO/Embraer AEW&C (Does it have a name yet ?) needs to be ordered in bulk the moment all the testing is done . Around a dozen of them is needed at the minimum to be strung along the eastern and western borders.

The full blown Phalcon sized AWACS needs a good and cheap airframe . Something on the lines of a narrow body A320 /B737 like the Wedgetail is probably best. At max an A310 sized one.

-IN is in the market for around 6 AEW&C

Shore based ?

[Misraji]

Extremely educational posts, Karan_M and Kartik Saar.
Thank you very much.

It turns out that the IAF was fine with the F-404IN20 engine on the Mk1. They jumped on the IN’s requirement for a higher thrust engine and requested the IAF Mk2 variant.

This line is a bit concerning. Is it that the choice of words is incidental or that IAF just dropped orders for MK1 when they figured they could have MK2?

--Ashish

[NRao]

Thanks Karan.

Seems to me that India is in no different boat than those that were/are ahead. India seems to following the normal curve inspite of the -ves in the country. CDK and revits are to a great extent imposed too. In the past 15 years on BR I have seen great progress else we wOuld not have seen posts such as the one Kartik posted. Could India have made greater progress - sure. But nothing has gone to waste IMHO. Even the Kaveri is an achievement. Engine is not a zero. AMCA is a great beast with FbL, nothing less.

Not a time to turn around. Time to dump old and retarded ad nauseam thinking. I just do not see a place for negetive tin can thoughts.

[Karan M]

Philip,

Karan,nothing much has changed in the manner in which the air shows have been conducted,not in the developments.

Really? An entire industry has been developed supplying items to the labs/AF etc with many systems world class & competing for offsets, and they exhibit what they do, but you don't even know or care about them. That says it all.

True,we see new desi protoypes/products,but if you see how many years it took for Akash to be commissioned,and Nag,still to be refined,you 'll understand the frustration and time lost and wonder whether some of these weapon systems will be obsolete when perfected.

Let me be frank. You wonder about their being obsolete etc etc, because you are afflicted with brochuritis. Indian systems are beyond those on brochures because while they may not have the fancy things claimed in ads etc, they are being tested to operate in India across our harsh demanding operational conditions and have a mix of fairly unique capabilities.
Nag - still to be refined - yes, when that refinement means having an IIR seeker autonomously lock on at 4km in the heat of the Indian desert, something which no other missile does - we can live with that refinement.
As we can live with the Akash being in production, a cost effective system which is entirely automated & a far cry from the Russian kit we were being offered.
But you complain & grouse based on what some journo with a degree in pol sci writes in some journal. Wherever the users indicate obsolescence, changes are made. The LCAs entire avionics were redesigned in 3 years.
I am sorry, but you miss most of the details and purely go by what you read in magazines and gup-shup without researching the tech either.

Some prestigious projects are still in their excruciating "labour" stage.Some projects appeared and disappeared.Perhaps the best development has been the emergence of pvt. Indian industry.I mentioned the UMS micro gas turbine,perfect for our missiles/UAVs.Mahindras and others are making serious investments into aerospace.Brahmos has been the most spectacular success ,along with the strat. and tactical missiles.

Brahmos a spectacular success. Yes, with the Prithvis OBC & INS (both made by HAL), plus a modified Fire Control system (made by Data Patterns). And the Akash's C3I (supplied by ECIL, specifically developed by ECIL as a modification to the Akash).

Now, do you understand why it was a spectacular success? Those very PSUs you bait & mock, made it so.

The helo div. of HAL appears to be better at success than the aircraft div.,as far as developing a new system is concerned.While we are able to build under licence/assemble Sukhois,Jags,etc.,w eare unable to design a basic trainer! The ALH (except for the naval version) ,LCH and other variants of helos in production are no small achievement,but if we are informed correctly,support has to be improved.We still import heavy and med. sized helos (MI-17Vs),naval helos and also light helos.With requirements in the hundreds,perhaps JVs for the same should be set up first before we develop our own.

All irrelevant given the context of how all these issues occurred and why they occurred and in which era. We have been over this a million times and frankly, isn't it tiring to hear.. the same old, same old.
If India too had its people eat grass, like the Former Soviet Union, it too would have a MIC like the one you wish for. It didn't. So it created a limited MIC setup limited to doing somethings and not all. Today's India is different. Why compare?

There has been a lot of success at radars,avionics,command systems,etc. Our command systems have formerly been imported.

Great

I knew a gent to was posted abroad to develop/acquire the same,as well as evaluate a particular missile (now widely used),and got kicked in the backside for calling Trishul a turkey,allegedly losing promotion for daring to take on the DRDO!

The last line is a recurrent issue with your posts. All your so called friends ultimately turn out to be India's saviors who run afoul of a) evil PSU b) evil DRDO c) evil GOI etc and hence routinely have comments on everything under the sun in the Indian MIC being worthless etc.

If you were a bit more circumspect about source analysis and cognitive bias (again, both issues matter), you'd realize the issue was hardly as black & white as you make it to be.

Our problem is that while we develop parts/components successfully,integrating them into a complete weapon system has proved difficult.

Which is a challenge the entire world faces.

Now we've put out a Rq for a new firang anti-ship med. ranged missile,that too subsonic! Why? When we've co-developed BMos why couldn't we have designed a smaller lower ranged BMos,or is it just too expensive.I don't understand the logic.Importing an inferior firang missile,albeit smaller for our missile craft and "K" class missile corvettes,when we have Brahmos at hand.

Please take a look at the Brahmos, its size and then consider whether a smaller, lower ranged BMos would even meet anybodys weight/size requirements.

I look at the UAV scenario.In over a decade,we've repeatedly shown only Lakshaya as a product,barring a few new designs-Rustom,etc.In that time,the global UAV/UCAV inventory has exploded.Just see how many new UAVs/UCAVs Israel is producing.Not to mention China's massive strides.The naval UAV based upon the Chetak has been apparently dumped.Pak has acquired Swedish UAV for naval applications.The number of our Israeli naval UAVs-land based too,is insignificant.This is an area which should've been opened up to Indian pvt. industry.There lies the hope for the future.

There are several UAV programs underway but India's priority has always been the major platforms which are far more expensive to acquire and contain more sophisticated technology since they have to be manned.

Israel can focus on UAVs since they don't have any manned aircraft programs.

After the Lavi program got cancelled, UAVs were their focus area.

PSU's cannot be parasites feeding upon Indian defence in perpetuity.

Nobody says they should be. But nor should you post one-sided claims always running down anything & everything local, while coming up with rather convoluted explanations for all-iz-well with Russian programs.

AKAs and ACM Browne's statements at the inauguration are good enough for anyone to know that all is not hunky-dory with the desi PSU def. sector.

Of course they aren't. But nor are they hunky dory with BAe or Sukhoi or several other OEMs. Ultimately, AK-NAKB-will resolve the issue. Seeking scapegoats as you do, don't work.

PS:Karan,no disrespect to Kartik and his illuminating post on the NLCA.He himself has said that he was told that a LOT of redesign is needed,borne out by much reportage.Both MK-2 s are going to go through the testing mill again.The extra weight of the landing gear is clearly a problem.Incidentally,UMS also had landing gear on display developed by their team.Unless there is a given timeframe for arrival of the same,the IN is going to exercise its firang option.I asked whether the time frame was given to him.

Therein lies your interpretation issue. How do you know there is no given timeframe? You do realize the gents are assigned to the program by the Navy partly to ensure both sides are in synch?
No - your automatic assumption in this case was to assume that the NLCA would fail, and foreign imports would be required & then insert the usual 1-2 jibes about LCA, this that, in topic after topic.

If you don't have anything pleasant to say about either program, and nor are you contributing to them, then please stop with these "i know x person who flew with me and he said this about the LCA, it sux".

Compare those sort of posts (political, he said-she said, egotistical - i would have solved things but those evil LCA ppl did this to me) etc etc to the kind of post Kartik wrote,

What prevented you, with all your access to write even ONE post like Kartik did? And please, not subjective he said she said stuff, but a technology focused, actual development focused, detail heavy post.

There was SO MUCH information at Aero India this time. What do we have from you? The usual rants about the worthless PSUs, how the LCA sux, how great the plastic Brahmos-2 model was and what your friend/s said about the worthless indian _(insert project name).

Its tiresome, painful and repetitive. In the process, you waste your own time sir. Going to AI you wasted your own opportunity.

[Karan M]

- AWACS India project is apparently sanctioned with a Rs 4K-5K Crore budget. Will be Phalcon sized, no platform identified as of yet. Tech demo for current AEW&CS has been up & running for past couple of years now. Next aim is to complete EMI/EMC tests and complete the OR for the entire platform. Test process should take an year. Chances of a few more being ordered to meet immediate needs even as AWACS India matures.

The DRDO/Embraer AEW&C (Does it have a name yet ?) needs to be ordered in bulk the moment all the testing is done . Around a dozen of them is needed at the minimum to be strung along the eastern and western borders.

The full blown Phalcon sized AWACS needs a good and cheap airframe . Something on the lines of a narrow body A320 /B737 like the Wedgetail is probably best. At max an A310 sized one.

Agreed, apparently story is the IAF took one look at the prices for off the shelf AWACS and local program was given impetus. They are literally unaffordable at seveal 100 million$ off the shelf, plus come with limitations.

-IN is in the market for around 6 AEW&C

Shore based ?[/quote]

Need to check.

[Karan M]

Thanks Misraji.

Thanks Karan.

Seems to me that India is in no different boat than those that were/are ahead. India seems to following the normal curve inspite of the -ves in the country. CDK and revits are to a great extent imposed too. In the past 15 years on BR I have seen great progress else we wOuld not have seen posts such as the one Kartik posted. Could India have made greater progress - sure. But nothing has gone to waste IMHO. Even the Kaveri is an achievement. Engine is not a zero. AMCA is a great beast with FbL, nothing less.

Not a time to turn around. Time to dump old and retarded ad nauseam thinking. I just do not see a place for negetive tin can thoughts.

Thanks NRao.

Big thing with Kaveri is that even with a handful of engines, they have local suppliers for many components and systems. Also, they can "talk" engines, since they actually understand how it works in reality, as versus poring through some old books or flight manuals or text.
I am fairly certain that if funded and supported well, these programs can deliver.
Not that easy of course, but compare to when they started, they knew little and had no support or infrastructure.

However, there is a huge funding & infrastructure (men and material) challenge across the board. That will continue. You have people literally working on multiple projects to get them done.

Let me mention the pros that came out via discussions with several industry folk who did a fair bit of walking/talking..

What is the positive is that since Indian industry has developed, they are letting them pick up more and more of the stuff to speed up projects. Current aim is to get projects down to 6-7 years from earlier 10-15 years.

DPSUs, are not liked particularly by SMEs who think they could do work without them (as DRDO work may have gone directly to them), but on the other hand, they do get the same work anyhow, subcontracted from DPSU (DRDO usually gives more manufacturing level work), DPSUs now have indigenization targets and often even outsource D&D packages, so SMES get that.

Consensus was that at Air Show/seminars etc only a fraction of current projects underway are being shown. The "sky is the limit" compared to early 1990 when we only had IGMDP programs. Now there are so many programs, so many systems.

Also, all these questions asked via friendly folks dedicated for this task - focus is now on modules and systems that can be reconfigured. Unlike earlier, they cant purpose design stuff each time something new comes up, so they are looking at both
- people who can work across functions & how to train them
- systems that can be used across multiple programs

There is also a very high level of confidence apparently and can do spirit. Per one guy, most of these developers have by now worked/seen multiple successes and big programs, so they have a very can do spirit.

A lot of positive vibe for VKS.

Also a lot of vibe for the way smaller firms have come up, across the board for precision machining to RF stuff to control systems. Earlier, DRDO would have to do it all.

Aerospace is now all set to be a boomtown. Gora-ji told one student "you are lucky to be here with the way industry is set to grow"! Lets see!

[chetak]

Thanks...a bit of context, if it doesn't bore you.. Navy approached LRDE for making a lightweight naval radar with ISAR tech, plus all A2A and A2S modes required. LRDE first made SV-2000, thats supervision-2000, had it clear trials, and went onto the next XV-2004 which features ISAR (you can literally "image" a ship and run it against a database for identification). XV-2004 is extra vision 2004. Its intended for "naval platforms" and can be fitted to both helicopters and light aircraft. I am thinking the former (russian kamovs) as Do-228s all already have the Israeli 2032 radar. Seakings, can handle larger heavier radars, tender is supposedly out looking for AESAs like Selex Seaspray. AESAs as you'd know come with heavier weight (Array and cooling) plus power requirements for their greater performance (range, reliability & beam control).

Karan M ji,

The "older" ELTA fitted on the Dornier (and ALH for trials) could also "image" a ship.

[Karan M]

Thanks Chetak, explains why the Navy wanted ISAR on the Indian radar having seen how useful it was. Incidentally, some 2-3 yrs back the Indian team showed their ISAR images at some event where even a consultant was a bit surprised. Something similar when Israeli guys came over at another seminar and showed ISAR images but the ones here were better (resolution).
So some useful stuff for the Navy and hopefully we keep improving it block by block.

[chetak]

Thanks Chetak, explains why the Navy wanted ISAR on the Indian radar having seen how useful it was. Incidentally, some 2-3 yrs back the Indian team showed their ISAR images at some event where even a consultant was a bit surprised. Something similar when Israeli guys came over at another seminar and showed ISAR images but the ones here were better (resolution).
So some useful stuff for the Navy and hopefully we keep improving it block by block.

Both radars, SV 2000 and the ELTA were also tried successfully on the Kamov 25 and the ALH.

I have lost track of the current status.

[merlin]

Extremely educational posts, Karan_M and Kartik Saar.
Thank you very much.

It turns out that the IAF was fine with the F-404IN20 engine on the Mk1. They jumped on the IN’s requirement for a higher thrust engine and requested the IAF Mk2 variant.

This line is a bit concerning. Is it that the choice of words is incidental or that IAF just dropped orders for MK1 when they figured they could have MK2?

--Ashish

Concerning? That is a thorough indictment of the IAF sensing a chance to dump the MkI and plump for the MkII. That way they don't have to buy the MkI in numbers (a paltry 40 ordered) even when the current engine is fine. What is MkII but a MkI with a slight extension, a fuel dump mechanism, new engine and some updated avionics?

[Vivek K]

And then the CAS has the gall to complain about delays!!

[vina]

Concerning? That is a thorough indictment of the IAF sensing a chance to dump the MkI and plump for the MkII. That way they don't have to buy the MkI in numbers (a paltry 40 ordered) even when the current engine is fine.

Oh. That is fine. Why would any sane Air Force order in bulk an older gen one, when the new one can got in less than 5 years ?

What is MkII but a MkI with a slight extension, a fuel dump mechanism, new engine and some updated avionics?

All that adds up to a pretty decent performance jump.. And yes, the MKII will have an AESA as well (eventually, though the ADA folks are not talking about it. My guess is either an LRDE one, I am sure there is a fighter AESA radar project on, as a spin off from the AEW&C , or an Elta one, the 2052 was displayed ..)

[hnair]

Karan M-saar, any GMTI programs (or modes in existing AEW platform)? Indian hot zones would offer some crazy challenges.

[andy B]

Thanks...a bit of context, if it doesn't bore you.. Navy approached LRDE for making a lightweight naval radar with ISAR tech, plus all A2A and A2S modes required. LRDE first made SV-2000, thats supervision-2000, had it clear trials, and went onto the next XV-2004 which features ISAR (you can literally "image" a ship and run it against a database for identification). XV-2004 is extra vision 2004. Its intended for "naval platforms" and can be fitted to both helicopters and light aircraft. I am thinking the former (russian kamovs) as Do-228s all already have the Israeli 2032 radar. Seakings, can handle larger heavier radars, tender is supposedly out looking for AESAs like Selex Seaspray. AESAs as you'd know come with heavier weight (Array and cooling) plus power requirements for their greater performance (range, reliability & beam control).

Boss many thanks for the informative posts both to you and Kartik we should look at archiving some of this info!

On the above re. the 2032 are we sure that the 228s carry the 2032 IIRC they had the 2022 V2/V3 models no? Also would you know what kit we have supplied the SAF with the Do228 that was built for them? Are we now re-exporting the 2022 and el-op kits? Or are they completely replaced with local products? IIRC in addition the SAR the 2022s have shown very good range detecting ships etc as well...turning the 228s into a very capable MPA...

[member_24612]

Armée de l'air Dassault Rafale B



Look at that green coloured HUD screen!

I had a chance to talk to a Rafale pilot at the Dassault stall. This is how the conversation happened!

Me: Hi, could you tell me why the HUD screen on the Rafale is green in colour?

Pilot: Its ze color of ze glass is green

Me: Ok, but why green when others are transparent? Anything special about it?

Pilot: Nothing special its just ze green color glass

Me: OK. Can you tell me about the two seater version of the Rafale? What is it used for?

Pilot: Its-a used for ze "cone" version (conversion) of ze yong pilots

Me: You mean training?

Pilot: Yes training. And we also use zem for nuclear missions. The rear guy is a WSO.

Me: OK that is great! Thanks so much!

Cheers,
Vivek

[Philip]

Thanks Karan,you've made your pts.objectively,much appreciated.I have my viewpoints too,esp. when it comes to delivery.If you've read my posts,you would find that I have gone on record as saying that DRDO's record has been "patchy",which is a fact.As for time frames,if everything is so perfect,why do the Def. Min. and Air Chief too come out with the statements that they've made reg. delays and quality during the air show?

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 010_1.html

Tuesday, Feb 12, 2013 | 12:10 PM IST

BS Reporter | Bangalore February 06, 2013 Last Updated at 07:10 IST
Antony slams DRDO over project delays

IAF laments HAL delays in delivery of intermediate trainer

Defence Minister A K Antony minced no words on Tuesday when he came down heavily on the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) over delays in various defence projects. Terming the time slippages as a “real problem” for the defence forces, Antony said he was “impatient” to see the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project completed.

While speaking at an international seminar as part of the ninth edition of Aero India here, he said: “I am happy for the achievements of the DRDO, but not fully happy. The delays in delivery is a real problem. Try to speed up your process and reduce time for research, development and production. Delays should be avoided.”

On the LCA ‘Tejas’ project, he said the DRDO was preparing for the second Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of the indigenous fighter. He, however, added: “I am impatient for the Final Operational Clearance (FOC).” The LCA is about 20 years behind its schedule. After getting the FOC, the aircraft would be ready for operational deployment by the IAF.

The minister also expressed anguish over the delay in the Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) programme being developed by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). “That (IJT) project is delayed, delayed, delayed... You must focus on that project and by the next conference, that should be ready,” he said.

Speaking on the occasion, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, too, expressed his unhappiness over delays in projects, which have affected the modernisation plans of the Indian Air Force .

Let's examine a few issues that you've taken up,here are my views.Brahmos has been designed to be installed on our existing missile craft.At former shows here and in Delhi,models featuring the missile in current size have been shown on Tarantulas.True the missile is large to put it mildly,but when a smaller version is stated to be developed for the air-launched version and when the performance is vastly superior to existing sub-sonic missiles of both west and eastern origin,why do we have to acquire from abroad an inferior missile,when the west is desperately trying to catch up with Brahmos? Secondly,to increase the chances of a hit,smaller subsonic missiles have to be launched in larger salvoes unlike Brahmos as they are more vulnerable to current anti-missile defences.What would you prefer? A missile corvette armed with 8 supersonic BMos or 16 Uran/Harpoon/Exocet? We have also been told that smaller mini-BMos missiles ARE on the anvil ,under development.Perhaps this might fit the naval bill and it would be totally indigenous,where we would not be held hostage in a crisis with a foreign supplier.I daresay it might even be cheaper too.

Akash.Pl. stand corrected.When Akash eventually arrived after a decade of seeing the missile at A_I shows and was ordered,I suggested and it is over a year now,that we immediately develop a naval version for larger surface ships.This would give us an indigenous alternative to Barak-8 (which was ordered without any competition) and which is a tad late with 3 DDGs waiting at MDL for the SAM.In fact one source says that the DDGS may be commissioned without their B-8s just like the B'putras.Incidentally if we do possess a true anti-missile defence for our warships right now,it is due to my late "friend" whom you have rubbished who was responsible for evaluating the same and advocating acquiring it,who allegedly firmly resisted when the desi brigade was trying to shove down a failed Trishul down the IN's throat.I have NEVER offered any suggestion of acquiring any Russian SAM to replace Aksah or replace the existing air defence missiles of the Soviet era that we still have.If our ABM systems too successfully tested and enter production,we would not/may not need any Russian ABM systems.Here's one report that might shed some light on the issue where it is alleged that we have replaced Russia with Israel as an importer of SAMs.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_04_05/ABM-m ... ed-forces/

India's army chief General Vijay Kumar Singh said in March that the Indian army had been rendered inefficient, slamming the defense ministry for corruption, which can help Russia get its foot in the door of the secluded Indian anti-missile market.

The recent letter by Gen. VK Singh to the Indian Prime Minister, leaked by Daily News&Analysis, didn’t focus on the Indian anti-missile defenses alone. The army chief criticized most of India’s armed forces for their lack of fighting capacity and stigmatized the country’s military procurement system as highly corrupt.

According to General Singh, most of the Indian armed forces are underequipped with cutting-edge weapons and ammo. The air defense, with 97% of its hardware being obsolete, has revealed the biggest holes.

Russia dominates Indian military imports, supplying armored vehicles, aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, multi-purpose fighters and helicopters. For more than four decades, India has been leading the pack of Soviet and Russian weapon buyers.

Still, Russian anti-aircraft manufacturers haven’t been able to tap into any major Indian air defense deals for several years now, being figuratively ‘locked out’ of the Indian medium and long range air defense market.

“Russia has offered India a number of modern anti-aircraft systems,” Said Aminov, editor-in-chief with the VestnikPVO military news site, told The Voice of Russia. “It was actively offering India its S-300 and the “Buk” missile system, also known as Gang. But India showed no interest in them. As a result, its air defense is currently outfitted with the “not so cutting-edge” 2K22 “Tunguska” system, as well as with “Shtil” and “Shtil-1” naval anti-missile systems, supplied by Russia since the Soviet collapse,” the military maven said.

The reason the Indians are shunning Russian modern air defense hardware, says Said Aminov, lies in Israel’s influence and in India’s reliance on its own powers. “Israel has already supplied them with its “Spyder” and “Barak” systems. The Israelis have also talked the Indian military into developing a joint “Barak-8” missile system, which covers a range of up to 85 km. Moreover, India is now developing its own medium-range “Akash” anti-missile complex, based on the 1960s “Kvadrat” of the Soviet origin. But the system has been under development way too long and already became morally obsolete.”

Experts believe that modern India possesses no air defense capable of protecting it from Pakistani (or Chinese) medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBM). It’s striving to build an interceptor missile based on its own research, which will take them a while. The Israeli “Arrow” system isn’t likely to secure the Indian skies either, since it was built with a considerable help from the US, which doesn’t tolerate such military secrets being passed on to non-satellite states. In 2002, America has already blocked a similar deal, which left India with nothing but a “Green Pine” radar complex instead of the whole “Arrow.”

The Pakistani missile threat is meanwhile too high for India to ignore. That’s why India has no other alternative today than the Russian Antei-2500 or S-300VMD, the export variant of the S-300V system.

Taking into account India’s course towards localization of foreign military research, it may be interested in diversifying its air defense with imported Russian systems (the S-300VMD, for one) and a joint anti-missile system deal, which it could then export to third countries.

The Indian Defense Ministry scandal is only gaining pace but it has not yet affected the Russian military industry. With the right approach, Russian weapon-makers could get a firm foothold in the Indian market. The only question is whether they are ready for a long and hard talk.

Naval LCA.Official statements have appeared last year that the IN was looking at other aircraft for their carriers.If alll was on schedule for the NLCA why would they do that?True,the IN has more than the IAF plonked for the NLCA wanting a desi aircraft which would require no major support problem,but being our very first naval fighter design,has encountered the inevitable problems of engine,landing gear,weight ,etc.Kartik in his post-and please,I had no intention of sniping at him, has explained in detail the long road that lies ahead.Now unless there is a reasonable time frame for the same,if the naval variant is not available when IAC-1 arrives,the IN will have to exercise the foreign option.There is another point too.It is a small fighter limited in range and endurance and will have the same radar and missile capability as the Sea Harrier LUSH upgrade.Now Qs have been made about the Derby's performance,only around 50% according to the CAG and admitted as such.When the PLAAN are fight testing their reverse-engineered versions of the SU-33,what future holds for the NLCA,unless a more mature and capable MK-2 is developed? Now numbers too for the NLCA will not be more than 40+ if two carriers are to be operational after the Viraat's retirement.I ask you a straight Q,which would the IN prefer,the inexperienced NLCA or the experienced naval Rafale or F-18SH or more MIG-29Ks/35s? Hence the timeframe aspect.It cannot stretch indefinitely into the future ,for it will then have NO future.

OFB.Makes thousand of crores worth of useless ammo,for which we have to import vast qtys from Russia at huge cost No one has been found accountable.I was talking about the show to a CEO of a well-known co. that does and used to make stuff for the forces.Reg. the faulty ammo.His fuses which were supplied at 1/5th the cost of another supplier-he had to make an official protest too and saw the end of that supplier,would not be paid for if the ammo failed,not due to his product failing! The headache he has thus experienced-apart from the baksheesh problem-and his co. is very well respected internationally for its products,made him take a concious decision not to enlarge its def. industry ambitions.It used to be sole desi supplier for a crucial component of one vital weapon system. Here are just two reports below on the ammo issue.

Blacklist effect: Tank ammo at critical low levels, MoD waives policy ...
4 Oct 2011 ... Blacklist effect: Tank ammo at critical low levels, MoD waives policy to buy - The
... Funny that we buy russian despite such substandard equipment ... The OFB
are corruption personified and so cant produce decent equipment.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/black ... buy/855410

'Army may face ammo shortage'
8 Jan 2013 ... The Indian Army may not have ammunition beyond three to five days to fight ...
Besides this, stocks for all types of missiles and anti-tank ammunition are critically
low and ... All this is when the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) responsible for ...
urgent replacements as being sub-standard they cannot be used.
http://dailypioneer.com/nation/120773-a ... rtage.html

UAVs.When drone attacks are the flavour of the time,we have been laggard at developing the same in house,while others have stolen a march over us.Manned fighters are becoming frightfully expensive-just look at the US's two stealth fighters,and forces worldwide are looking at the UCAV alternative,used very effectively in the US's recent wars.The UAV/UCAV requirement could've then been thrown open to pvt, industry if our priorities were much more exotic manned fighters? A decade on,we are still acquiring them from abroad and even the naval UAV using a Chetak platform has been abandoned.I said look at China's development during the last decade and they have flown two stealth prototypes too.Time is the essence.Unfortunately,the apathy of the political leadership has allowed desi def. dev. and production to establish its own time frame which does not serve effectively the requirements of the end-user,the forces.

In all the air shows that I've attended,we have yet to develop and induct a single aircraft type,fighter or trainer! That is a sobering fact.We've had better fortune with helos,kudos to those responsible,and spectacular success with missiles.At this show the newest success was the CABS/Embraer AEW bird.Great recovery after the crash many years ago of the prototype.One looks forward to the same system being fitted onto larger medium sized aircraft as well,as large numbers will be required to sanitise the coastline and EEZ.

One last point for the moment.Once developed,a system has to enter production where quality and quantity are the key words.The figures given for both Arjun and the LCA are woefully inadequate.The last time round,when there was official soul-searching about the DRDO's performance ,one expert said that the DRDO should concentrate more upon R&D and developing weapon systems,rather than becoming a manufacturer.Thus far,pvt.industry have been allowed to only produce components.They must be given a chance to produce entire systems developed by the DRDO and not left to monopoly manufacture by PSUs.That also results in the Tatra syndrome.

Finally,I suffer neither from "Brochuritis" or any such plague! I have been fortunate to have known and still know many who are involved in the issues (from those in "starry" uniforms,to those in industry) we've debated.For obvious reasons one cannot give names,but I have cross-checked with them reg.def. reportage,professional writings,media news,etc. as often as I can to get as accurate and a true picture as far as possible.If I am in error,pl. point me out objectively.

[Bala Vignesh]

Andy mian,
The CG dornier parked at AI was carrying the Elta 2022A...

[krishnan]

the acrobatic Flying Bulls of the Czech Republic, led by a 50 year-plus lady pilot;

[vina]

- GTRE Kaveri follow on is definitely > 100 Kn. Incidentally, Navy is serious about the KMGT (Marine Gas Turbine) and a MK2 variant is being developed for them, with better lifecycle than the first which was more of a POC demo

What did you hear about the Kaveri ,esp the follow on ?

[Bolasani]

A few pictures/scans from my visit: (Clicky for full Album)

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

[merlin]

Excellent work Bolasani! I can get away with not having to post any info board/brochure photos after what you and Zynda have done

[NRao]

Shiv's post seem to be missing the links to his pictures he took!!!

[Varoon Shekhar]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but Claude Arpi, who normally writes sensibly, and is sympathetic to India, made an awfully sweeping dismissal of DRDO in his rediff.com article. He said they were essentially good for building bio-toilets. After all that has been accomplished, including most recently with the Sagarika series, how can anyone sweepingly denounce DRDO?

Arpi in his feature on Aero-India is really plumbing for the Rafale, and calling for private sector involvement in defense development. But it's one thing to advocate private sector participation in armaments manufacture, quite another to be blind to the real achievements of a government/public sector organisation. Don't let your feelings/prejudices on the public vs private sector issue, get in the way of acknowledging facts and visible achievements(Agni 5, AAD, K-15 et al).