Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2013 22:54

NoKo has to be added to the joint TSP-PRC alliance and hence the need for long range missiles.
The TSP Ghauris are Nodongs. They are the principal means of delivery for TSP. Shaheen etc are from PRC and already covered by AV.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Feb 2013 00:01

^^^

Looks like GoI got timely political cover for A6 which has just 1000km additional range over A5

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Feb 2013 13:51

Latest Ground test of New Design

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Feb 2013 14:20

Was this the Dec-12 test?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2013 14:29

seems to be a original design..those midbody fin size and shape dont match anything out there in bvraam space including pl12

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Feb 2013 14:44

vasu raya wrote:^^^

Looks like GoI got timely political cover for A6 which has just 1000km additional range over A5

Saar I would suggest we get out of this cover business. We should not have to justify every move that is made to ensure the security and prosperity of a country of billion plus people.

This is the slave mentality that makes us look up to our masters for Affirmation/Confirmation (There is a better word but I am unable to recall it at this moment). It is this attitude that keeps us down.

I do not suggest that we be hostile to the world. We should have the patience to hear out our enemies and certainty our friends. But once the right path has been identified, we should do what is in our best interests and the world be damned. No cover business please.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 14 Feb 2013 14:47

Singha wrote:seems to be a original design..those midbody fin size and shape dont match anything out there in bvraam space including pl12

Didn't the original design have the fins further up the body towards the nose?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Feb 2013 14:54

Merlin, I think Singha meant the new Astra is a "Original Design" does not look any other A2A missile in the world.

How difficult is it to create an A2A missile with a IIR seeker, and Active short range radar seeker cued with Mid course updates from the parent aircraft.

IIR seeker will lock on based on inputs from Parent aircraft radar and Active radar seeker on where the target should be and confirm its an Aircraft engine and not flare,chaff, decoy etc. Then ducks, if only such things could be true.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2013 15:11

here is how LM is testing it for its JAGM - the replacement for hellfire. combined laser guided, IIR and MMW radar. the radar dish seems to have some hole in middle and optical kit for the IIR/laser ahead of it
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6924772-0-large.jpg

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 14 Feb 2013 15:14

Strange to see the Javelin making a come back but then again FMS allows for speedy delivery, the new range of the missile of hitting 4.75km away is amazing, this would be a great addition to our troops.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Feb 2013 15:17

Seems only after bit of time that JAGM will have an Ato A version with of bore sight capability and phenomenal range

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Feb 2013 15:36

Aditya_V wrote:Was this the Dec-12 test?

..edit

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Feb 2013 15:47

Sorry I missed the news, thought the last 3 tests in Dec-12 were the last

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Feb 2013 15:56

Aditya_V wrote:Sorry I missed the news, thought the last 3 tests in Dec-12 were the last

The last reported test was conducted on Dec-12.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Feb 2013 16:08

Hrr Dinesha, you seem to access to chaiwala's and said something you should not have

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Feb 2013 16:17

India, France sign $6 bn deal on Surface to Air Missile - PTI

Expressing satisfaction with the progress in defence cooperation, Singh said, "Discussions on the MMRCA contract are progressing well. We have also concluded negotiations on the Short Range Surface to Air Missile, which, once approved by the Government, will be co-developed and co-produced in India," while noting that the defence ties were poised to reach a qualitatively new level.

The Rs 30,000 crore worth of SR-SAM project is a co- development joint venture between India and France and would be developed by MBDA of France and DRDO from the Indian side. The surface to air missile defence system would be deployed by the IAF and the Navy.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 14 Feb 2013 16:58

Just a question, do we have guided JADM in our inventory?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2013 19:06

keshavchandra wrote:Just a question, do we have guided JADM in our inventory?

we have laser guided air launched vikhr ATGM on the Mi17v and Mi35.
ancient french SS11 missiles are also still active on some Chetak helis iirc.
Rudra and LCH will get some ATGM...

fixed wing a/c have no such brimstone or jadm missile. perhaps after the jaguar F125 engine change makes them fit to tibet, we can triple rack 6 helinas on each jag, 2 drop tanks, 2 r550 and 4 more helina below fuselage for a long range warthog type solution.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Feb 2013 20:44

pankajs wrote:Saar I would suggest we get out of this cover business. We should not have to justify every move that is made to ensure the security and prosperity of a country of billion plus people.

Would agree with you on the idealism and lets see if we announce and test, even if we get a biased blowback from the usual suspects can we absorb it?

The monkey China was trying to elicit a reaction from Europe by saying that A5 had a range of 8500km and hence a threat to them conveniently ignoring that China already is a standing threat to all those nations. Did we see a GoI reaction to such yellow polemics?

Would you see desi articles questioning western missile ranges?

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 14 Feb 2013 21:34

Singha wrote:
keshavchandra wrote:Just a question, do we have guided JADM in our inventory?
we have laser guided air launched vikhr ATGM on the Mi17v and Mi35.
ancient french SS11 missiles are also still active on some Chetak helis iirc.
Rudra and LCH will get some ATGM...

fixed wing a/c have no such brimstone or jadm missile. perhaps after the jaguar F125 engine change makes them fit to tibet, we can triple rack 6 helinas on each jag, 2 drop tanks, 2 r550 and 4 more helina below fuselage for a long range warthog type solution.

thank you sinha sir, for the info. I saw a discovery program on weapons. During vietnam war, usaf used unguided jadm extensively from their B-52 bomber. But now they have heavy class guided jadm which they launched mainly by B-2 or B-52, during afgan war. And they were very accurate(as the program), as they may set the explosion timings as before hit d ground....or on the ground or under by max 5 feets.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 14 Feb 2013 21:39

Singha wrote:here is how LM is testing it for its JAGM - the replacement for hellfire. combined laser guided, IIR and MMW radar. the radar dish seems to have some hole in middle and optical kit for the IIR/laser ahead of it
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6924772-0-large.jpg

LM multimode seeker is considered to be failure. And if i remember right it doesn't have IIR, as per the current status.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 14 Feb 2013 21:40

srin wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

"Slaving of seeker with IRST/HMS"

Does that mean Astra is like MICA i.e. dual role WVR and BVR?

It might mean that the pilot just needs to turn his head and look at the target (at long WVR) for the Astra's RF seeker to lock on.

Using IRST for BVR is not uncommon.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Feb 2013 23:49

pankajs wrote:India, France sign $6 bn deal on Surface to Air Missile - PTI

So Maitri back to life?

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 14 Feb 2013 23:58

indranilroy wrote:
pankajs wrote:India, France sign $6 bn deal on Surface to Air Missile - PTI
So Maitri back to life?

$6 billion for missile? what are the components? are these designed from scratch .. or bought off the shelf..?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Feb 2013 00:06

Jan 2012 report has some details. The latest news reverses the situation described in the report.

Indian Army Shows Urgency in SR-SAM Acquisition by Issuing a Global Tender

The Indian Army’s persistence on the early acquisition of Short Range Surface -to-Air Missile systems (SR-SAM) has resulted in a global tender to the tune of $ 1.5 billion. While a similar Indo-French SR-SAM project called ‘Maitri’ has been under consideration, the Indian Army‘s global tender for SR-SAM is expected to put the ‘Maitri’ project on the back-burner due to an urgent SR-SAM requirement by the Indian Army.

According to sources, the Indian Army has sent global tenders to Raytheon of United States, Rafael of Israel, MBDA and Thales of France, Diehl Defence of Germany, KBP Tula and Rosoboronexport of Russia, Ukraineexport of Ukraine and LIG NEX1 of South Korea. The current SR-SAM tender is for two regiments (36 systems) estimated to cost around $ 800 million each. Sources added that the total requirement of the Indian Army for SR-SAM is likely to go up to around eight regiments in the next five to seven years.{Should be reflect the current requirements out of the Indo-French project}

As for the current tender for SR-SAM, it includes 1800 missiles along with the supply of two regiments of SR-SAM systems and the selected vendor will have to transfer technology of the systems as well. The supply is to be made in two batches and completed within five years of the signing of the tender, including the launchers, sensors, vehicles for transportation and the missiles. The SR-SAM systems must have a life of at least twenty years and the shelf life of the missiles not less than eight years. The tender states that the SRSAM system should be able to possess multi-target engagement ability and be capable to engage aerial targets flying with a speed from zero to 500 meters per second. Besides, the Army has stipulated that the maximum range of the SRSAM should have a range of not less than 15 kilometers.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Feb 2013 00:11

Additional details from another old report

Indo-French Maitri SR-SAM Awaits Workshare Clearance

The ownership of the Maitri programme is envisaged as being fully Indian. With baseline technologies from the Trishul SAM programme, the Maitri programme basically envisages the sale of certain key technologies by MBDA to DRDO (seeker, endgame avionics, thrust vector control, propulsion modifications), though production will not be under a corporate joint venture on the lines of BrahMos, but would rather be carried out entirely by Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's state-owned munitions production agency.

The Maitri is being built in two basic variants -- a ship-borne point defence and tactical air defence version for the Navy and a land-based self-propelled (wheeled and tracked) launcher-based system for the Air Force and Army.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Feb 2013 00:14

Astra images are impressive; guys check out the kamal of smokeless propellant.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Feb 2013 00:26

indranilroy wrote:
pankajs wrote:India, France sign $6 bn deal on Surface to Air Missile - PTI
So Maitri back to life?

It never stopped...believe the issues were both about finances and getting the relevant tech from the French. Unlike the LR/MRSAM though, SRSAM will see far more contribution from the Indian side as pretty much everything apart from the missile itself (radars, C3I network, mobile launchers/support equipment) will be Indian.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 15 Feb 2013 02:44

If the SRSAM is for the Indian Navy, how does it fit in with Barak 1?

For the Army, the requirement is clearer

I hope we dont get into the same situation as LRSAM, where it just looks like a repackaged Barak 8, late in coming & without any TOT of seeker knowhow

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Feb 2013 03:24

SRSAM is for the Navy and AF and will replace Barak-1. It will have a longer range, and is more sophisticated, with a fire & forget capability and does not need constant illumination. Basically, it can handle surge attacks. The Army made its own case for a separate procurement & citing operational urgency has sought an off the shelf import of a SRSAM system, whether that too will be license assembled (in part) in India, is unclear, given how large their order is likely to be. Of course, this being the Indian Army's procurement, it being completed in time is also a dodgy prospect, and for all we know the SRSAM may actually take over. Having said that, the Army is indeed serious about it. This is the Army RFI.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 280110.pdf

The DRDO-MBDA project will also be pitched for it, if ready in time since this will be an open deal with multiple vendors competing.

This SRSAM is far more useful (from the localization perspective) as everything in it (apart from some of the missile tech) will come from India, and even the missile itself will be codeveloped with TOT/joint production of those systems sourced from elsewhere, a given (as versus the Brahmos, where we initially didn't cater for localization of the entire missile and let some systems remain mostly in Russian control). The radar will be from LRDE, C3I (software and hardware from DRDL), ditto for the support equipment. This is a DRDO image presented at AeroIndia (as usual Aroor was brazen enough to put his own trademark all over it)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 726473.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 727718.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 729746.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 730846.jpg

In fact, with the successful development of the Aslesha and trials completed in high alt even (21 ordered by the IAF), the DRDO now has several of the building blocks in place for derivatives thereof (see the Elta 2106 NG for instance used by the SpyDer SR). With Astra getting ready (this year stated to be its year http://www.deccanchronicle.com/130127/n ... r%E2%80%99), we are getting in place to have our own mobile lightweight SpyDer as well.

In contrast, the Barak-8/LR/MRSAM has pure Indian contribution mostly in the missile airframe + motor. Rest is mostly to be driven by Israel with input from India, we have deputed Indian engineers to work with Israel & will customize wherever possible, try to leverage common modules/tech developed for other projects. But basically, its a very Israel driven project, apparently with the imprint of a gentleman currently under controversy for a whirlybird contract. Who was even the representative of the firm implementing the contract after his retirement.

Having said that, the Barak-8/LR/MRSAM project has allowed DRDO to concentrate its scarce (human + funding) resources on its priority projects and drive them to closure. Given the amount of Israeli involvement in this project, they have been able to work on the BMD and several other projects to get them ready in time.

LRDE itself has a significant number of radar projects in its ambit, but one does wish that even the LRSAM/MRSAM was more "Indian" in terms of its hardware though I have little doubt that DRDO will seek to indigenize many key items since there are a variety of Indian SMEs/PSUs providing similar gear for Indian radar projects including the core electronics for the AESA radar. Incidentally, the AESA radars supplied by Israel for the IAF under the Arudhra program (also the name of the corresponding LRDE project which will complement these) source their TR modules from an Indian firm, which was given to them as an offset contract! So the capability exists and will be exploited.

The huge growth of Indian SMEs, openly backed by the DRDO, and in recent years, somewhat accepted by DPSUs who are now relying on them for Tier 2/3 assemblies, is a good thing from the localization perspective. Otherwise, I would be a worried man regarding the LRSAM/MRSAM and how many widgets we'd continue to source from Israel, with TOT proceeding slowly to only 1 vertically integrated DPSU, which too would take time absorbing it over a large time.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 15 Feb 2013 03:50

KaranM,
Noob pooch. What's the difference between Barak 8 and VL Astra. Both of them are for airborne threats no ? I understand Barak 8 will have some anti missile capability too ? I guess what I'm trying to figure out is: is there a major difference between surface and air launched AAMs ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Feb 2013 17:20

powerful meteor stuff in russia...even small few kg rocks at mach50 have a pretty impressive effect.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 15 Feb 2013 18:21

^^^ Apparently, the space-rock was travelling at terminal velocity of 30 kmps. Hasnt been confirmed whether there was a Tunguska type explosion or a disintegration.

Apparently, there is a belt extending from Poland to the Russian-Kazakh border onto Sinkiang, Inner Mongolia through the Pacific onto Mexico which is the most likely impact zone for most space rocks.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 15 Feb 2013 23:03

KrishnaK: there is no VL-Astra. Astra is tested in its ground launched mode to test out various parameters like aerodynamics, seeker, propulsion etc before flight trials are held

Though one can ask legitimately, why is there no VL-Astra?

I guess the answer is: since the A2A version is not perfected yet, DRDO's energies are spent in getting that one out the door. A VL-Astra might follow (or should follow IMO). Which brings up the question of - why Maitri if VL-Astra can do the job? Its not like Maitri is available off the shelf today. It will take at least 5 years to materialize, by which time VL-Astra could be ready

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 15 Feb 2013 23:36

Prem Kumar,
I knew there's no VL Astra as of yet. It came out of KaranM's post saying we can have one pretty quickly as most of the pieces are ready.

In fact, with the successful development of the Aslesha and trials completed in high alt even (21 ordered by the IAF), the DRDO now has several of the building blocks in place for derivatives thereof (see the Elta 2106 NG for instance used by the SpyDer SR). With Astra getting ready (this year stated to be its year http://www.deccanchronicle.com/130127/n ... r%E2%80%99), we are getting in place to have our own mobile lightweight SpyDer as well.

Anyway the real question is: what's the difference between a surface launched and air launched AAM ?

John · Post by **John** » 15 Feb 2013 23:48

KrishnaK wrote:Anyway the real question is: what's the difference between a surface launched and air launched AAM ?

it would need a booster if we want to increase the intercept range. So we will end up with system that is nearly about size as Barak-8 and active seeker on Astra would be quite expensive. IMO i see Maitri as significantly smaller and cheaper missile to complement MR-/LR-SAM and won't be surprised if it is similar to Sea Ceptor.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 16 Feb 2013 00:15

KrishnaK wrote:Prem Kumar,
I knew there's no VL Astra as of yet. It came out of KaranM's post saying we can have one pretty quickly as most of the pieces are ready.
In fact, with the successful development of the Aslesha and trials completed in high alt even (21 ordered by the IAF), the DRDO now has several of the building blocks in place for derivatives thereof (see the Elta 2106 NG for instance used by the SpyDer SR). With Astra getting ready (this year stated to be its year http://www.deccanchronicle.com/130127/n ... r%E2%80%99), we are getting in place to have our own mobile lightweight SpyDer as well.
Anyway the real question is: what's the difference between a surface launched and air launched AAM ?

As per the earlier reports, Maitri is considered to be VL Mica with Indian inputs.

Regarding the difference, Mica is quoted to have a range of ~80 km ( head on I guess), whereas VL Mica is known to have a range of ~15km.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 16 Feb 2013 01:52

How fast is the SRSAM supposed to be?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Feb 2013 02:04

John wrote:it would need a booster if we want to increase the intercept range. So we will end up with system that is nearly about size as Barak-8 and active seeker on Astra would be quite expensive. IMO i see Maitri as significantly smaller and cheaper missile to complement MR-/LR-SAM and won't be surprised if it is similar to Sea Ceptor.

John: I dont see why a VL-Astra would need a booster. Its sea level range is 21 Km. Even assuming that some of that range is because of the momentum of the launching aircraft, I feel it can comfortably meet the 15 Km range requirement for a ground launch. VL-Mica also has an active seeker & its not going to be any less expensive than a VL-Astra. French maal is anything but cheap

I really dont understand the thinking behind the Maitri project

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 16 Feb 2013 03:10

Singha wrote:powerful meteor stuff in russia...even small few kg rocks at mach50 have a pretty impressive effect.

Klaus wrote:^^^ Apparently, the space-rock was travelling at terminal velocity of 30 kmps. Hasnt been confirmed whether there was a Tunguska type explosion or a disintegration.

Apparently, there is a belt extending from Poland to the Russian-Kazakh border onto Sinkiang, Inner Mongolia through the Pacific onto Mexico which is the most likely impact zone for most space rocks.

Approximately a minimum of 300KT of energy was released by the meteor(15m in size) blast.