LCA News and Discussions

[member_20292]

^^^

Which is why Indians do not like to work in India. There is this theme of ALWAYS having to out-argue the next fellow who engages in a war of words with the previous guy. When everything is about the latest quibble in town...then when does the real work get done?

Not in (many places) in India.

[member_20292]

^^^

But yes, "open fly torn zip " ......

these internal small arguments and quibbles are also common in the EU as well as in the US. Both of whom are better societies to emulate, than say, China , or Nippon.

[shiv]

^^^
What I found remarkable in those articles are that
(a) There are several "problems" in F35 multibillion dollar program like decreased T/W, reduced turn rate, reduced AoA ityadi
(b) Despite these difficulties, there is no chest beating and doctrine is revised to accomodate advantages like stealth. Because every product is a compromise in some way or other.

Imagine what would happen if someone tomorrow "reveals" that LCA turn rate is not as high as Mig2000. Shiv aroor will be shouting from rooftops and writing a 15 part articles on how CVDRE is bad and made a bad aircraft which cant even fire APFSDS shots.

Because this chap too is what Rajiv Malhotra describes as being of of those

..Indians who want to prove their credentials to other Indians by demonstrating how much Western theory they have mastered, and how much the Western academy loves them with recognition.

[member_23455]

^^^
What I found remarkable in those articles are that
(a) There are several "problems" in F35 multibillion dollar program like decreased T/W, reduced turn rate, reduced AoA ityadi
(b) Despite these difficulties, there is no chest beating and doctrine is revised to accomodate advantages like stealth. Because every product is a compromise in some way or other.

Imagine what would happen if someone tomorrow "reveals" that LCA turn rate is not as high as Mig2000. Shiv aroor will be shouting from rooftops and writing a 15 part articles on how CVDRE is bad and made a bad aircraft which cant even fire APFSDS shots.

Because this chap too is what Rajiv Malhotra describes as being of of those

..Indians who want to prove their credentials to other Indians by demonstrating how much Western theory they have mastered, and how much the Western academy loves them with recognition.

Ah! The old F35 chestnut...

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/02/01/gates ... m-manager/
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2010 ... m-Lockheed

Please post links to equivalent example of accountability in DRDO/HAL/IAF etc.

[kmc_chacko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _Fp8uWVV2I



tell me why i am laughing?

How can they miss this one ? they don't even know difference between LCA & Rafael

[shiv]

Ah! The old F35 chestnut...

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/02/01/gates ... m-manager/
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2010 ... m-Lockheed

Please post links to equivalent example of accountability in DRDO/HAL/IAF etc.

Oh. So the F-35 problem is solved then. Brilliant. I was under the mistaken impression that there are stiil issues. The man got fired and all is well. This is how things should work.
+1

Jokes aside you have done exactly what Rajiv Malhotra wrote about. Thanks for the validation.

[SagarAg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _Fp8uWVV2I



tell me why i am laughing?

How can they miss this one ? they don't even know difference between LCA & Rafael

Ask them the full-form of LCA and you will know exactly why.

[member_23455]

Ah! The old F35 chestnut...

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/02/01/gates ... m-manager/
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2010 ... m-Lockheed

Please post links to equivalent example of accountability in DRDO/HAL/IAF etc.

Oh. So the F-35 problem is solved then. Brilliant. I was under the mistaken impression that there are stiil issues. The man got fired and all is well. This is how things should work.
+1

Jokes aside you have done exactly what Rajiv Malhotra wrote about. Thanks for the validation.

Way to dodge the issue raised by me in the post. Thanks for validating the national attitude towards accountability...which is a bit of a joke.

[Boreas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _Fp8uWVV2I



tell me why i am laughing?

Valid question...nothing wrong with 'Dassa Ra-fail'...

yeh fighter plane brahmos, naag, aakash, python aur apache jysi mizzilon ... ko le ja sakta hai.

[nachiket]

Valid question...nothing wrong with 'Dassa Ra-fail'...

yeh fighter plane brahmos, naag, aakash, python aur apache jysi mizzilon ... ko le ja sakta hai.

Well in their defense, there is an ALCM named Apache

[kshirin]

And to some degree that is understandable. The struggle to obtain resources for everyday life (water, electricity, schools, milk, etc) has been mitigated to a large extent in the West. People usually think clearer when they don't have a bunch of errands and to-do lists clouding their vision. Diesel vs. Petrol / TDS slabs etc legitimately consume a high proportion of an Indian's time because their 'quality of life' impact on an Indian is higher.

Agreed, and it applies to all of us facing these challenges. Unfortunately, we are all are caught up in these issues. So things are unlikely to change in the short term.

Meanwhile, there is a bit of positive news re: competition. It is one of my beliefs that HAL itself could do with a bit of competition. Antony specifically mentioned the Avro program as a deliberate attempt to get a competitor to HAL & spur it on (decision taken apparently despite HAL's desires).

One of the pluses though right now of the decentralization between HAL and ADA/ADE is that we have not (yet) created a monopoly. If a competitor to HAL does come up fast thanks to the Avro, ADA/ADE can, hopefully, work with it. If ADA/ADE etc and HAL were merged - then it would be a disincentive to creating a truly equitable industry.

A longer term issue though is that even with competition, the problems may remain or reoccur, because ultimately two HALs still equal a cartel situation. If both come to a tacit understanding, things will remain the same.

Which is why I'd want the services to bell the cat & start getting involved across the board.
Ultimately, something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_ ... l'armement

Which can work across the entire alphabet soup of design-manufacture-certification agencies that we have.

An Aerospace Commission is also an essential requirement, oft mentioned but very necessary to ensure long term investment and consistent development.

That in itself would reduce a lot of the insecurity & hence inject more reality into a lot of these programs cost projections and timelines. If you know long term support is available, without our CWG politicians seeking to kill the program, then you can ask for a proper program budget and cost.

Was any Indian company finally identified for this? I haven't heard anything since the initial announcement.

[Karan M]

Way to dodge the issue raised by me in the post. Thanks for validating the national attitude towards accountability...which is a bit of a joke.

Shiv does have a valid point. To raise accountability and then cite the JSF, is a big joke. Whats the point of a couple ofa token removal? The program failure is systemic and across many levels. No clearing of the scale required occurred either. Firing people is not all is well. All is well comes from a honest reappraisal of whatever didn't work, new processes/methods to change the old (including letting the wrong people go) and then working out a plan which solves things. A few token dismissals are the worst way to go about the issue for even the right people get scapegoated and are lost. Program ends up in more trouble.

In India too, at HAL for instance, one knows of several such symbolic actions taken, but systemic issues remain.

[Karan M]

Was any Indian company finally identified for this? I haven't heard anything since the initial announcement.

WIP

[shiv]

Way to dodge the issue raised by me in the post. Thanks for validating the national attitude towards accountability...which is a bit of a joke.

You are welcome. Your knowledge of American solutions for their problems surpasses that of anyone else I have come across. Your ability to pinpoint attitudes of national accountability on me will undoubtedly lead to the same degree of success in Indian aerospace as the US achieved in its F 35 program by kicking out one man in 2010.

Your profuse admiration of the latter action is matched by my admiration of your prescience and ability to spot Indian problems precisely and point out perfect solutions reached by Americans for different problems. My compliments to you.

[shiv]

what a beautiful video of tejas. infact lch/sarang videos were awesome too. Sharp moves. did they accept a deal for positive coverage for raffle saar we did the coverage as discussed saar...no no saar we really showed raffle saar.

Yes indeed. This is a good video and shows a better LCA show than 2011. Time to top of loop is 9 sec or so compared to 11-12 last time.

Sorry. I was wrong. It was about 9 sec last time also. Here is a "mine is bigger video" made out of Aero India 2011 LCA clips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V4waXZLxSE

[pankajs]

Tejas to be subjected to field conditions soon - Hindu Posting in Full

Set to demonstrate its ‘swing-role’ capability by firing both missiles and laser-guided munitions at the Air Force firepower demonstration ‘Iron Fist’ in Pokhran later this month, the long-delayed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will face its biggest ever challenge once it receives complete initial operational clearance, IOC-2 as it is called, hopefully by the end of the year.

From a guarded and secured environment, where it has been flying with a brilliant track record of 2,000 flights without an incident, Tejas will then move into an operational environment, where it will be subjected to field conditions.

It would be a test of Tejas’ capabilities, an official associated with the development of the LCA told The Hindu. “No matter how much care you have taken, some issues will always crop up when it gets exposed to the field, but the earlier we get these inputs, the quicker we can fix them,” he added.

Tejas — whose seventh Limited Series Production aircraft (LSP-7) is flying now — will soon be joined by the eighth, and the last, after which series production of 40 aircraft ordered by the Air Force will commence. LSP-8 has begun engine ground run and is expected to take to the skies in March. Meanwhile, cutting of metal is under way for the series production aircraft.

In the run-up to complete initial operational clearance, the aircraft would continue weapon trials in Pokhran to better its accuracy of delivery of ammunition. Besides test-firing laser-guided bombs, it would drop ‘dumb bombs,’ unguided munitions, with this aim, said the official.

“The phase between full IOC and final operational clearance, likely by 2015, will see the aircraft incrementally expand its flight envelope with a higher angle of attack — indicative of its agility and manoeuvrability without compromising on safety — and take on additional weapons like those beyond visual range [Derby, in this case] and an air-to-air gun [still not decided].”

“It is an aircraft intentionally designed to be unstable, so to speak, for better agility. So unless we exercise utmost care while taking it to a higher angle of attack, it could well depart from a controlled flight…” cautioned an ace test pilot.

“The LCA has had limited environmental trials in extreme hot and cold conditions, at sea-level and at high-altitudes in Leh. Every programme goes through this rigour, but being an indigenous programme that has come under fire time and again, the period between IOC-2 and FOC will be decisive for the LCA,” he said.

Wing Commander (retd.) P.K. Raveendran, group director (flight test) of the National Flight Test Centre that test-flies the LCA, during a chat at the recent Aero India 2013 at Bangalore, said weapon integration on LCA did not pose a challenge, given the aircraft’s modular avionics, open architecture and other anti-obsolescence features. “Adding a new weapon on the LCA is easy, as we know everything about the aircraft. It is entirely ours. It facilitates you to plug a new system in without hassles,” he said.

Futuristic thinking at the time of design, he said, had taken care of issues such as weapon suite change, upgrade of avionics, effortless maintenance, and reduction of turnaround time. “While its aerodynamics is almost plateaued, you are free to change the weapons and avionics. This is what gives an edge to the platform.”

Separately, it is learnt that handling flight of the LCA by the Air Force pilots will soon begin. “Once the aircraft is certified for induction, it will get detached from the umbilical. It will then become an Air Force fighter,” said an official of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which designed and developed the aircraft.

[SaiK]

I hope the blue texts (strategies) are kept as mission objectives for all projects that we take up with or without firang collaboration.

[ramana]

I would like to know the dumb bomb accuracy in the Iron Fist exercises.
Key points: height of release, distance of release and miss distance?

My expectation is the integration of the RLG, weapons computer(compute the release point taking the various factors into account) and the Litening pod (for accurate ranging) will give it a ~3 mil miss distance.

Would like to know if LCA can operate in toss bombing mode?

[SaiK]

we would know more on feb 22 iron fist day

[PratikDas]

An update from Tarmak007's Facebook page:

Tejas hits target.

Just in. Sources tell Tarmak007 that Tejas hits target during Iron Fist full dress rehearsal. (Official confirmation yet to come.)

[RKumar]

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2029 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-350,LSP1-74,LSP2-250,PV5-36,LSP3-100,LSP4-65,LSP5-128,LSP7-20,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2042 Test Flights Successfully. (17-Feb-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-350,LSP1-74,LSP2-252,PV5-36,LSP3-102,LSP4-65,LSP5-133,LSP7-24,NP1-4)

[suryag]

Imagine the pilots of the Mig21/27 in the exercise when they see the tejas and its cockpit, up until now things(glass cockpit, comfortable seating etc) which were limited to the sirtaj Rambha is being used by pilots of the tejas and they are saddled with the old warhorses with analog dials and troublesome take-off and landing. Hope this exercise serves as a nice advertisement for the tejas and it does everything that a 21/27 does with ease thus making it more desirable and giving some much needed word of mouth publicity.

[member_23360]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _Fp8uWVV2I



tell me why i am laughing?

OMG

[putnanja]

Any idea which LCA aircrafts are taking part in Iron Fist? From suryag's numers above, looks like LSP-5 & 7.

[SagarAg]

Any idea which LCA aircrafts are taking part in Iron Fist? From suryag's numers above, looks like LSP-5 & 7.

Is taking part in an exercise also a part of test flight ? Was aero display of LCA Tejas at Aero India 2013 also a part of test flight ?

Imagine the pilots of the Mig21/27 in the exercise when they see the tejas and its cockpit, up until now things(glass cockpit, comfortable seating etc) which were limited to the sirtaj Rambha is being used by pilots of the tejas and they are saddled with the old warhorses with analog dials and troublesome take-off and landing. Hope this exercise serves as a nice advertisement for the tejas thus making it more desirable and giving some much needed word of mouth publicity.

+1 Suryag.

[putnanja]

Any idea which LCA aircrafts are taking part in Iron Fist? From suryag's numers above, looks like LSP-5 & 7.

Is taking part in an exercise also a part of test flight ? Was aero display of LCA Tejas at Aero India 2013 also a part of test flight ?

I would believe so. Each flight adds to the number of successful flights, and I have no doubt that they go through all parameters after every flight, whether it is ferry flight to Pokhran, or flypasts in Aero India or the excercises at Iron fist. Every flights adds to the hours, and cycles on the frame.

[Bharadwaj]

Any idea which LCA aircrafts are taking part in Iron Fist? From suryag's numers above, looks like LSP-5 & 7.

Is taking part in an exercise also a part of test flight ? Was aero display of LCA Tejas at Aero India 2013 also a part of test flight ?

Imagine the pilots of the Mig21/27 in the exercise when they see the tejas and its cockpit, up until now things(glass cockpit, comfortable seating etc) which were limited to the sirtaj Rambha is being used by pilots of the tejas and they are saddled with the old warhorses with analog dials and troublesome take-off and landing. Hope this exercise serves as a nice advertisement for the tejas thus making it more desirable and giving some much needed word of mouth publicity.

+1 Suryag.

Not to mention the fact that overall airframe performance/ agility is surely already better. The fact that it is not sitting in numbers at Chabua, Tezpur, Sirsa etc etc etc is a tragedy of epic proportions.

[SagarAg]

Not to mention the fact that overall airframe performance/ agility is surely already better. The fact that it is not sitting in numbers at Chabua, Tezpur, Sirsa etc etc etc is a tragedy of epic proportions.

I can't wait to see LCA Tejas in action at Iron Fist exercise. I hope it is able to achieve its actual objective there apart from successfully bombing mock targets.

[Indranil]

This picture shows the difference in the explosive cord of the LCA canopy after the last grounding.

http://www.photoyogi.com/Airplanes/aero ... g&lb=1&s=A

P.S. Yogi ji, is it okay for you to produce the image on the page. Probably you could quote this post and change the url to the actual image. thanks in advance.

[MN Kumar]

LCA cockpit video during AeroIndia 2013

[youtube]1eThatTQcSU#![/youtube]

[vasu raya]

Two features would like to see on the Tejas in the run up to AMCA,

a) CFTs

From the awesome pictures posted by Photoyogi, in pic 5 the sharp tapering of the fuselage can be seen, perhaps CFTs if at all can be fit there, their length extending from the landing gear door to the protrusion just short of the engine exhaust and adjacent to the rear inner aileron. And then fuel in the tailfin.

http://www.photoyogi.com/Airplanes/aero ... &lb=1&s=XL

b) Aerial Escape and Rescue Capability (AERCAB) ejection seats

The specs of the ABHAYS HEAT drone suggest we have the technology, the way we package it with a Ejection seat needs to figured.

More on AERCAB, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejection_seat

Late in the Vietnam War the USAF and US Navy became concerned about its pilots ejecting over hostile territory and those pilots either being captured or killed and the losses in men and aircraft in attempts to rescue them. Both services began a program titled Air Crew Escape/Rescue Capability or Aerial Escape and Rescue Capability (AERCAB) ejection seats (both terms have been used by the US military and defence industry), where after the pilot ejected, the ejection seat would fly him to a location far enough away from where he ejected to where he could safely be picked up. A Request for Proposals for concepts for AERCAB ejection seats were issued in the late 1960s. Three companies submitted papers for further development: A Rogallo wing design by Bell Systems; a gyrocopter design by Kaman Corporation; and a mini-conventional fixed wing aircraft employing a Princeton Wing (i.e. a wing made of flexible material that rolls out then becomes ridged by means of internal struts or supports etc. deploying) by Fairchild Hiller. All three after ejection would be propelled by small turbojet engine developed for target drones. With the exception of the Kaman design, the pilot would still be required to parachute to the ground after reaching a safety-point for rescue. The AERCAB project was terminated in the 1970s with the end of the Vietnam War.[7] The Kaman design was the only one in early 1972 which was to reach the hardware stage and come close to being tested with a special landing gear platform attached to the AERCAB ejection seat for a first stage ground take offs and landings with a test pilot

and the Tejas ejection seat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas#Escape_systems

Although two-seat variants of the LCA are planned, the examples built to date are crewed by a single pilot on a Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat. The British Martin-Baker ejection seat is planned to be replaced with a locally developed alternative.[70] To improve pilot safety during ejection, the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) created a new line-charged canopy severance system, which has been certified by Martin-Baker

[SaiK]

well they can very well extend the fuselage laterally to shape it like AMCA a bit, and do the same wing blending, to make the additional space for a large fuel space. call it a step towards AMCA designs.

[manum]

^^^everything aside, I think if they could deliver LCA a little faster, will be great...AMCA'ish LCA can wait..

other than that, I know what problems LCA guys are facing...They want to be sincere, thorough and achieve everything IAF asked for. They still lack that killer business attitude, which doesn't l let the customer increase demands...or if demands are asked, then customer should be told in written all if's if specs are extended...

[SaiK]

absolutely no doubt about that tranches mode of deployment and graduation path. but care must be driven into customer demands with a life-cycle approach, where the customer understands that change within that tranche is not possible, and only possible with next request for upgrade plans. who is stopping such a thought? why is that every upgrade or requirement and needs to be packaged in one shot, one version, one budget etc? why is this shooting ourselves in the foot, while encouraging firang companies to enjoy upgrades, bad product purchase, and enjoy Indian hard earned money? why?

[vasu raya]

^^^
IAF might be throwing its weight around by blaming obsolescence, the project team is also being cautious on the testing, however in their defence a clear case needs to be made out of these Su-30 crashes so that should anything happen to the Tejas in its testing phase, they can show the mirror to the IAF and other assorted import lobbyists who will cry foul for sure. And then QC stabilization of HAL production lines is an issue in itself that something Tejas team cannot control.

[Sagar G]

who is stopping such a thought?

Didn't you watch the IAF rant session in AI or want to remain oblivious to the obvious ???

[SaiK]

Then we need to fix HAL problem rather correlate where cause-effect has no relationship. Being cautious is different from being finger pointing and doing nothing. Start the correction process, and establish a new charter to producing LCA in numbers. Be it private participation or HAL integrations, it does not matter as long as QC in place.

BTW, subduing a kid, and he becomes father one day, then continue to blame him because he does not qualify to become a quality father is not nurturing an industry that we all want.

[Sagar G]

The problem is not LCA/QC/Manufacturing/Design etc. but it is with the mentality running through IAF like the HAL guy pointed out and something which ex IAF Chief Fali Major also talked about in a recent interview to Tarmak.

[SaiK]

haah! we can't be driven by one person blind sight... with all due respects.
I agree the CnC is a chain of command, but that is totally operational expertise of the user community, who is bound to give out such opinion... take it at pinch level.

[Sagar G]

When there are multiple indications to the same thing then that has to be an area of problem to be rectified.