Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2013 01:23

To quote a Latin saying Tyagi is

"Lapso calami, suggesto falci!"

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 15 Feb 2013 01:46

I get the feeling that somebody tried to cash in on 'lowering the operational ceiling' when it was going to be done anyway/had been decided upon already

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Feb 2013 02:02

Times Now has implicated Abishek Verma in not just this but also other deals in which it calls the whole situ "Armsgate".The trail leads from India to Mauritius (Verma's "Atlas" co.),lobbyists in Switzerland allegedly signing an agreement with him and they in return signing an agreement with AW,where they say they have access to the "corridors of power",etc. and a track record of swinging deals.

Now for sceptics out of touch with events,the IL-476-aka the IL-76MD-90A is being built by Aviastar in Ulyanovsk,Russia.The first flight of the new version took place in Sept.2012.In Oct.Putin viewed the aircraft and ordered an initial batch of 39 for a cost of only $4.5billion.That works out to just over $110million per aircraft. Compare this with what we are paying for 12 C-17s $580 mil per aircraft (5.8B for 10)!

At least 100 will be built before 2020.The aircraft was earlier in its IL-76 avatar built at Tashkent Uzbekistan during Soviet days,by the Tashkent Aircraft Prod. Co.( TAPC). that built a staggering 900 of the type in 4 decades! Production was transferred to Russia after the financial health of the TAPC and dependence upon a foreign country saw the change in production being shifted to Russia take place.

Some key improvements:
The basic upgrade includes new engines,PS-90A-76 turbofans,a "heavy update in avionics" and a glass cockpit.A new wing with the same aerofoil ,but diff. structural design resulting in a significant weight saving.

The TO weight is now increased to 210t from 190t.Max payload now 60t up from 47t. A 12% fuek efficiency now has given a range increase from 4,000km to 5,000km.TO run now only 1600m from 1750m.3 aircraft are under production with deliveries in 2014.A production rate of 18 per year is planned by 2018.The aircraft is now capable of unrestricted international commercial flights due to its advanced powerplant (4 X 16,000 kgf thrust ) and upgraded avionics.The crew has been reduced from 7 to 6.

The new IL will also serve as the basis for a new tanker to replace the Il-78.

Here's some figs/data for the C-17 acquisition:

$580-million tag for IAF's C-17 aircraft can be cut: Boeing
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/05/5 ... e-cut.html

Operation Cactus boosted India’s regional stature, when Russian-built IL-76 aircraft airlifted hundreds of paratroopers 2000 kilometers, non-stop, to the Maldives within 12 hours of a frantic SOS from that country’s coup-embattled president. With India’s fleet of 24 IL-76 aircraft now obsolescent, Indian planners have decided to buy Boeing’s C-17 Globemaster III, widely acknowledged as the world’s most versatile military transport aircraft.

The downside: at over half a billion dollars apiece, the Globemaster is also the world’s most expensive air-lifter. With criticism rising of India’s US $5.8 billion purchase of ten Globemasters, Boeing now says that India could actually pay far less.

Responding to a question from Business Standard about the Globemaster’s high cost, Vivek Lall, the India chief of Boeing Defence Space & Security (BDS), has clarified by email that the US $5.8 billion, “is on higher side of what the actual cost could be…. India may not need all the services and items that the US Air Force is offering them. The final cost will be determined by the actual requirements of the Indian Air Force and after negotiations are held.”

In accordance with US law, the US Congress was notified on 23rd April that India wanted to buy ten C-17 Globemaster III aircraft directly from the US government (under the Foreign Military Sale, or FMS, programme) for an estimated US $580 million per aircraft. In contrast, the IL-76, can be bought for less than one-tenth that price: about US $50 million per aircraft.

The US $580 million tag could become even bigger if India buys secure communications (COMSEC) and Global Positioning System (GPS) navigation aids, by signing two safeguard agreements that US law demands but New Delhi has so far rejected: the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA); and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA). The recent Congress notification indicates that India’s C-17s will not be fitted with COMSEC equipment; GPS security devices; and certain “Government Furnished equipment”.

The BDS chief, Vivek Lall, indicated that Boeing would provide alternatives to the COMSEC and GPS, but said, “We do not discuss detailed aircraft components as the deal is a foreign military sale and is between the two Governments.”

Business Standard has examined requests, placed to the US Congress over several years, for C-17 sales to NATO, Canada, Australia, UAE and Oman to determine how Boeing’s ex-factory price of US $200-220 million for each unfitted C-17 Globemaster escalates to US $580 million for each of the fully-kitted military aircraft that India is buying.

The data indicates that the basic military aircraft, built at Boeing’s Long Beach facility outside Los Angeles, California, costs about US $350 million. An additional US $150 million per aircraft goes on spare engines, maintenance spares, electronic protection systems, and logistics. Finally, Boeing’s global maintenance network for the C-17 --- called the Globemaster III Sustainment Partnership, or GSP --- charges US $75 million every three years --- i.e. US $25 million per year --- to ensure that each aircraft covered in this plan remains flying, functional and available almost 90% of the time.

Boeing has confirmed that India is joining the GSP and that the notification to the US Congress includes that cost.

Once India’s planned procurement of 10 Globemaster IIIs is completed, it will be the largest C-17 user outside the US, which operates 198 Globemasters. Other users are the UK (6 aircraft); Australia and Canada (4 aircraft); Qatar (2 aircraft) and NATO (3 aircraft).

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 15 Feb 2013 02:28

KrishnaK wrote:I get the feeling that somebody tried to cash in on 'lowering the operational ceiling' when it was going to be done anyway/had been decided upon already

+1

Fair enough Surya.

At least need closure to this episode. Find the trail and come up with person's name and exact amount to be bribed.

-Ankit

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Feb 2013 03:02

thanks ramana

for bulleting it

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2013 03:37

You guys should also visit the 2G scams thread in Strat Forum where I posted much useful info about the players. Philip you will love it@!!!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Feb 2013 04:02

The only thing Tyagi could be involved in is changing the specifications to keep AW in the race early on. But from what has been revealed, it is clear that the deal itself would not have happened had the service ceiling value not been reduced because of the unacceptable single-vendor situation. So if Brajesh Mishra had the specs changed for that reason, what exactly is Tyagi supposed to have done? The deal itself was signed two years after Tyagi retired. He wasn't really in a position to "swing" anything.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 15 Feb 2013 04:06

Ex-air chief SP Tyagi used to brief us on tender developments, claim middlemen

(Guido Ralph) Hashcke and (Carlo) Gerosa, through the Tyagi brothers, in turn through their cousin ACM SP Tyagi, managed first to change the tender details, in a way to favour, modifying the "operational ceiling" from 18,000 to 15,000 feet of altitude, thus allowing AgustaWestland spa (which otherwise could not have even submitted an offer) to take part in the tender,"

the report said.

They managed to introduce a comparative flight trial with non-functional engine, thus facilitating AgustaWestland helicopters, the only ones which had three engines. In this way they managed to get the contract to AgustaWestland,"

it alleged.

-Ankit

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Feb 2013 04:41

Timenow digging deeper

unfortunately I do not have time to watch but you can check it

http://www.timesnow.tv/NHR-Live-Armsgat ... 421114.cms

gkriish · Post by **gkriish** » 15 Feb 2013 05:47

No matter how much we talk here in the forum there is no point until the Kongress is in power and more over we need a strong and independent Lokpal unless it is done i don't see any changes in the working of the country and second i would strongly advocate a Defense version of Lokpal (Defense Lokpal) investigated by defense officials and reported to a Special Lokpal bench Of Defense and MOD officials

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Feb 2013 05:49

Chitra subramanian is basically saying its a Swiss and italian investigation at this point and India can join anytime

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2013 07:59

Surya, This revelation could be due to the positioning of major business houses in the aircraft market in India. Could be a Tata vs Reliance gang war.
FM connections look like old world UK connections. Which is a TATA domain.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 15 Feb 2013 08:07

Chita Subramaniam of the Hindu Bofors investigative reports?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Feb 2013 08:12

yes she is now Chitra Subramanian Duella

watch her on Arnab's show

she has awesome contacts in Switzerland

arnab's people have got emails where everyone is boasting of buying off journalists etc

she basically says this is a replay of Bofors except on a faster scale because of internet, 24 hrs news etc

vivek_v · Post by **vivek_v** » 15 Feb 2013 10:24

There was a news flash in Headlines Today/Time now that the person who got maximum kickbacks name was Matrin and he was also hired by Dassault aviation for Mirage deal (or) something like that.

I did not find time to clearly see what was being mentioned but if it is even remotely true then it might put a spanner in the Rafale deal.

Edit: Below is the link for the same,

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/middl ... /1074582/0

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Feb 2013 10:31

Tx Ramana.I will look it up.Right now the GOI/MOD appears to be paralysed with inaction after merely suspending the deal.With the speed of revelations from Italy thanks to media bloodhounds,waving e-mails and letters on telly,the conjuring up a defence to defend the indefensible is a herculean task.The trail leading to AV with the threat of even more shady deals coming into light,that too while the gent is a "guest of the state",is threatening a full melt down.The Opposition must not snatch defeat from the jaws of victory right now.the Cong-UPA are flat on their back.

Interestingly,HT and TNow are looking at diff. characters as kingpins.HT has said v.little about AV in their reporting,strange when there is so much of evidence involving him at the heart of the deal.

This aspect,foreign players behind the scam leaks,cannot however be ignored.Some sources say that there is a concerted effort still on to scuttle the Rafale deal and the AW expose is part of the plot.The main aim being to shoot down the Rafale,AW merely the sideshow.It is why M.Hollande is here,to tie up loose knots and seal the deal/s.The allegation is that the plot is of US origin,a as prime whistle-blower is a Yanqui.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 15 Feb 2013 10:37

Philip wrote:Times Now has implicated Abishek Verma in not just this but also other deals in which it calls the whole situ "Armsgate".The trail leads from India to Mauritius (Verma's "Atlas" co.),lobbyists in Switzerland allegedly signing an agreement with him and they in return signing an agreement with AW,where they say they have access to the "corridors of power",etc. and a track record of swinging deals.

Now for sceptics out of touch with events,the IL-476-aka the IL-76MD-90A is being built by Aviastar in Ulyanovsk,Russia.The first flight of the new version took place in Sept.2012.In Oct.Putin viewed the aircraft and ordered an initial batch of 39 for a cost of only $4.5billion.That works out to just over $110million per aircraft. Compare this with what we are paying for 12 C-17s $580 mil per aircraft (5.8B for 10)!...

Here's some figs/data for the C-17 acquisition:

$580-million tag for IAF's C-17 aircraft can be cut: Boeing
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/05/5 ... e-cut.html

Operation Cactus boosted India’s regional stature, when Russian-built IL-76 aircraft airlifted hundreds of paratroopers 2000 kilometers, non-stop, to the Maldives within 12 hours of a frantic SOS from that country’s coup-embattled president. With India’s fleet of 24 IL-76 aircraft now obsolescent, Indian planners have decided to buy Boeing’s C-17 Globemaster III, widely acknowledged as the world’s most versatile military transport aircraft.

The downside: at over half a billion dollars apiece, the Globemaster is also the world’s most expensive air-lifter. With criticism rising of India’s US $5.8 billion purchase of ten Globemasters, Boeing now says that India could actually pay far less.

Responding to a question from Business Standard about the Globemaster’s high cost, Vivek Lall, the India chief of Boeing Defence Space & Security (BDS), has clarified by email that the US $5.8 billion, “is on higher side of what the actual cost could be…. India may not need all the services and items that the US Air Force is offering them. The final cost will be determined by the actual requirements of the Indian Air Force and after negotiations are held.”

In accordance with US law, the US Congress was notified on 23rd April that India wanted to buy ten C-17 Globemaster III aircraft directly from the US government (under the Foreign Military Sale, or FMS, programme) for an estimated US $580 million per aircraft. In contrast, the IL-76, can be bought for less than one-tenth that price: about US $50 million per aircraft.

The US $580 million tag could become even bigger if India buys secure communications (COMSEC) and Global Positioning System (GPS) navigation aids, by signing two safeguard agreements that US law demands but New Delhi has so far rejected: the Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA); and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA). The recent Congress notification indicates that India’s C-17s will not be fitted with COMSEC equipment; GPS security devices; and certain “Government Furnished equipment”.

The BDS chief, Vivek Lall, indicated that Boeing would provide alternatives to the COMSEC and GPS, but said, “We do not discuss detailed aircraft components as the deal is a foreign military sale and is between the two Governments.”

Business Standard has examined requests, placed to the US Congress over several years, for C-17 sales to NATO, Canada, Australia, UAE and Oman to determine how Boeing’s ex-factory price of US $200-220 million for each unfitted C-17 Globemaster escalates to US $580 million for each of the fully-kitted military aircraft that India is buying.

The data indicates that the basic military aircraft, built at Boeing’s Long Beach facility outside Los Angeles, California, costs about US $350 million. An additional US $150 million per aircraft goes on spare engines, maintenance spares, electronic protection systems, and logistics. Finally, Boeing’s global maintenance network for the C-17 --- called the Globemaster III Sustainment Partnership, or GSP --- charges US $75 million every three years --- i.e. US $25 million per year --- to ensure that each aircraft covered in this plan remains flying, functional and available almost 90% of the time.

Boeing has confirmed that India is joining the GSP and that the notification to the US Congress includes that cost.

Once India’s planned procurement of 10 Globemaster IIIs is completed, it will be the largest C-17 user outside the US, which operates 198 Globemasters. Other users are the UK (6 aircraft); Australia and Canada (4 aircraft); Qatar (2 aircraft) and NATO (3 aircraft).

So you raise the bogey of C-17 being exhorbitantly expensive and then answer it by posting a very lucid link from the Business Standard which explains why it isn't really?

Without threadjacking this into a Russia-bashing thread, if the CAG was to start applying performance based auditing to Russian weapon systems, the mess and loot with spares, and calculating "presumptive" loss - the numbers for even the FMS would start to look positively rosy.

In fact with some imagination and boldness of purpose, hiring ex-Boeing, LM etc. people to work as empaneled agents to get us the best deals from these guys, and linking their commissions to the savings they can realize is how any commercially savvy organization would work.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Feb 2013 10:46

RajitO from your link

Everyone else has paid around USD mil 225 and Base aircraft to us is priced at USD 350 Mil?? this can't be just inflation

And how many years GSP did we get, does it mean the fleet is going to cost USD250 Million which will be adjusted upwards per year for GSP. This is without fuel and repairs not covered by GSP. So operating cost of the fleet would be USD 500 mil a year? what is the IAF total budget like USD 7 Billion??

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Feb 2013 11:07

RajitO wrote: Really? Pulling rank based on number of posts . Some of us value quality over quantity...eh? But please provide a specific example of an inflated per unit cost on this thread and one can debate, instead of puffing over forum seniority!

ref GF clearly a skewed view of a person who fired one of the highly regarded service chiefs over an ego issue, but no wish to derail this thread on that point

NDA blah blah...Factually incorrect. No govt. has come up with a policy mainstreaming above activities, thus further criminalizing it. Banning middlemen/agents being the most glaring example of an illogical and hypocritical worldview.

Wonderful, so first you accuse others of Madarassa math and then when pointed out that others may not be as clueless as you are, you play the victim card while still managing to throw invective?

Homework for you, go start reading the transport a/c link from the very first page of the first thread.

Meanwhile, you may spew venom at NDA for not legalizing corruption and hence putting the loot of UPA in trouble, but the fact is,
1) NDA did put out DPP
2) DPP is indeed approach to making a structured decision making.

Having a opinion is worthless if there is no fact to back it up.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 15 Feb 2013 11:20

Aditya_V wrote:RajitO from your link

Everyone else has paid around USD mil 225 and Base aircraft to us is priced at USD 350 Mil?? this can't be just inflation

And how many years GSP did we get, does it mean the fleet is going to cost USD 250 Million which will be adjusted upwards per year for GSP. This is without fuel and repairs not covered by GSP. So operating cost of the fleet would be USD 500 mil a year? what is the IAF total budget like USD 7 Billion??

That link was from Philip's original post just for the record.

Col. Shukla needs to be asked the "gap" question because his reportage talks about "unkitted" ex-factory 220-225 million but does not specify further whether that is an FMS route price or not. And Boeing themselves are saying in the link non-FMS sales are "better".

Till someone has an itemized billing for the whole C-17 deal - (RTI/FOIA anyone?) to me it's very similar to buying a laptop from Flipkart as opposed to from a mall-based retailer. The latter charges me 20-30% more but gives me a nice carry case and sends a guy over to my house if it needs repair during warranty. Flipkart does neither (but since I am a cheap SOB I love it anway

)

Are the Yanks making extra money on top -sure, so let's go supersaver on the Yanks, as the last part of my previous post emphasizes.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 15 Feb 2013 11:32

Sanku wrote:
RajitO wrote: Really? Pulling rank based on number of posts . Some of us value quality over quantity...eh? But please provide a specific example of an inflated per unit cost on this thread and one can debate, instead of puffing over forum seniority!

ref GF clearly a skewed view of a person who fired one of the highly regarded service chiefs over an ego issue, but no wish to derail this thread on that point

NDA blah blah...Factually incorrect. No govt. has come up with a policy mainstreaming above activities, thus further criminalizing it. Banning middlemen/agents being the most glaring example of an illogical and hypocritical worldview.
Wonderful, so first you accuse others of Madarassa math and then when pointed out that others may not be as clueless as you are, you play the victim card while still managing to throw invective?

Homework for you, go start reading the transport a/c link from the very first page of the first thread.

Meanwhile, you may spew venom at NDA for not legalizing corruption and hence putting the loot of UPA in trouble, but the fact is,
1) NDA did put out DPP
2) DPP is indeed approach to making a structured decision making.

Having a opinion is worthless if there is no fact to back it up.

Which is why you are not able to cite the relevant chapter and verse in the DPP where agents/middlemen have been legalized, which was the the point that I was on, but that would have required basic reading comprehension, which you seem incapable of.

There's a pretty good fact based discussion happening right now incidentally. Bye for now, its been a real pleasure.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Feb 2013 11:39

RajitO wrote: Which is why you are not able to cite the relevant chapter and verse in the DPP where agents/middlemen have been legalized, which was the the point that I was on, but that would have required basic reading comprehension, which you seem incapable of.

No you were not on that point, you were on no point what so ever, other than throwing invective and hoping some random nonsense coupled with some personal attack will pass for a debate.

vic · Post by **vic** » 15 Feb 2013 12:29

Tyagi may not have launched the boat and nor did he bring it to port but rowed it mid-sea, or so it seems.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Feb 2013 14:04

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/agust ... /1074757/0

The letter says that Michel agreed to take a 12 million-Euro cut in his commission to accommodate the demand of Haschke and "the family". It is, however, not specified in the letter what "the family" alludes to.

Finally, the trail is begining to get closer to the real perps, of whom the Tyagi's were only the front.

jimmyray · Post by **jimmyray** » 15 Feb 2013 16:12

Italian media hints at Cong link to copter scam

Friday, 15 February 2013 00:31
J Gopikrishnan | New Delhi

Like the Bofors scam, the AgustaWestland chopper deal too has telltale signs of a Congress connection. According to the Italian newspaper ‘Lettera 43’, main commission agent Christian Michel’s late father was “close to the Congress party”, and the other middleman, Guido Ralph Haschke, was a Director of Emaar-MGF, a real estate company owned by relatives of Kanishka Singh, who is associated with a Congress high-up.

Michel was also the agent of Dassault, which has emerged as the lowest bidder for the Indian Air Force’s 10 billion dollar deal for Rafale fighter jets, supposed to be the world’s biggest tender.

According to the Italian newspaper report on November 20, 2012, the “mysterious” British citizen Michel, described as “Man of Bears”, had received 60 per cent (around `210 crore) of the kickback amount of 51 million Euros (around `360 crore) from the Finmeccanica, the manufactures of AgustaWestland choppers.

The investigation report filed in the Italian court corroborated the findings. It said that the CEO of Finmeccanica, Giuseppe Orsi, and AgustaWestland CEO Bruno Spagnolini had paid 30 million Euros (`217 crore) to Christian Michel. “Orsi and Spagnolin, moreover, paid Christian Michel a total amount of about Euros 30 million, partly destined to support the corrupt activity meant to bag the order and partly to implement the contract,” the document said.

“Born in 1961, Michel is little known to the public. On the internet, there are no evidences of his business or his statement. Not a photo or an interview. Yet, Michel is very well introduced in Defence establishments in New Delhi,” says the Italian newspaper report titled “Christian Michel, the English middleman of Finmeccanica.”

“His contacts are stronger especially with the Indian Defence, that he has inherited from his father, Wolfgang Max Michel Richard, a British businessman who was very active in India between 80s and 90s and was close to the Congress party,” the reports says.

The detailed article on the business background of the “mysterious” Michel stated that his father had business interests in Libya, Russia, Iran and Iraq. He was a Labour party’s fund-raiser before his death in August 2012.

Italian newspaper reports as well as French Court records establish that Michel was an agent of Dassault, which is set to bag the 10 billion dollar worth deal from Indian Air Force.

According to these reports, in 2004, Michel sued Dassault over non-payment of commission for the purchase of Mirage aircraft for Indian Air Force in 2000. However, Michel lost the case at Paris Commerical Tribunal on the technical grounds that his agreement with Dassault had expired.

Haschke case is all more bizarre. The man who confessed to the Italian court on his connections with former Air Chief SP Tyagi was the Director of Emmar MGF, the firm which bagged the biggest deal in connection with Commonwealth Games. Haschke is neither builder nor a real estate enterprenur, so his connection with Emmar MGF is bound to raise eyebrows.

The controversial real estate giant is still being probed by the CBI for alleged irregularities in the construction of the Games Village Complex in Delhi. Late Ved Prakash Gupta, the founder of Emmar MGF, was the maternal grandfather of Kanishka Singh. Kanishka’s father late SK Singh was the promoter of Emmar MGF, which was doled out controversial favour by the Delhi Development Authority after it bagged the contract for building the CWG Village.

According to the prospectus filed by Emmar MGF with SEBI, Haschke was Director in September 2009. But in December 2009, he resigned after the Games scandal exploded and Opposition leaders and former BJP chief Nitin Gadkari alleged that the Emmar MGF had been favoured due to its link with Kanishka Singh.

1951 born, Haschke is a Switzerland-based defence middleman, who holds dual passports of his motherland Italy and that of the USA. Haschke earned 20 million euros (around Rs 150cr) in the deal, according to chargsheet in the AgustaWestland case. It is learned that Haschke stopped visiting India after 2011, when his name cropped up in the Italian probe. Michel, a frequenter to Delhi for the past two decades, also stopped coming to India after August 2012. He is currently operating from Dubai.

jimmyray · Post by **jimmyray** » 15 Feb 2013 16:54

Another very interesting article on this chopper deal
Chop-a-deal

As Italian investigators probe alleged kickbacks in a Rs 3,546-crore deal involving an Italian company over the sale of VVIP helicopters to India, what’s unraveling is an elaborate network of businessmen, government officials and politicians

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 15 Feb 2013 18:39

This is the final nail in the coffin of this congress party and gandhi/nehru family. What is the BJP waiting for? Call for elections now and rid India of this cancer called congress and Gand--family, now and forever.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Feb 2013 18:51

Snahata-> wrong thread and Elections are in the hands of GOI and way too many people in Babudom, Judicary, Businessmen, NGO, Media etc are invested the current regime and lets not forget 3rd front. SO there is no open and shut case.

Please take this to the appropriate thread not here.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2013 19:55

From NDTV a flowchart

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Feb 2013 19:56

CNN-IBN News Ticker:

Chopper deal: CBI to send a team to Italy

Now I'm 100% sure nothing will happen. They did the same thing with Quattrochi. They will be taking with them account numbers, documents, cash, secure encrypted phones, etc and "negotiate" with the Italian gov, intelligence, and arms agents on behalf of the family.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Feb 2013 20:00

snahata wrote:This is the final nail in the coffin of this congress party and gandhi/nehru family. What is the BJP waiting for? Call for elections now and rid India of this cancer called congress and Gand--gamily, now and forever.

Elements of the opposition are making a lot of money from these scams as well. The roots of the family banyan ensnare much of the gov. The only institution now is the CAG.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2013 20:05

Philip, I am coming to the conclusion that India's arms purchases from right after Independence were to bail out and prop UK arms peddlers.

Jeep scandal onwards where surplus jeeps were sold to India at jacked up prices- Indian Navy purchaes of exRN ships- IAF purchases of Gnat and Hunters, IA purchases of Centurions and so on.

Rajiv Gandhi broke the UK connection and started shopping around Europe. Thus paid for it with Bofors revelations. MMS is now shopping in US. Maybe 10 years later we will find out more skeletons.

And portion of the cut is shared with British political parties.

jimmyray · Post by **jimmyray** » 15 Feb 2013 20:52

Ganton USA owned by Abhishek Verma is also involved in the AW chopper deal. This was revealed last year;

Defence middleman's web of fraud goes unnoticed

Defence middleman's web of fraud goes unnoticed

2 May 2012, New Delhi, Pinaki Bhattacharya

The new papers about Abhishek Verma show his influence in UPA government.

ACCUSATION 1

Indian Air Force purchased 12 helicopters from Augusta Westland (AW) for Rs 3,546 crore. In Italy, where AW is based, rumours abound that there are ‘kickbacks’ paid to Indians. Evidence points towards AW's agreement with Ganton Ltd for ‘providing necessary assistance’ to conclude the deal ‘rapidly and favourably’. Ganton USA is allegedly owned partly by Abhishek Verma.

ACCUSATION 2

Rheinmetall, a Swiss howitzer manufacturer, had responded to a request of the ministry of defence (MoD) to supply self-propelled 155 mm guns. But it was blacklisted by the MoD for bribing Sudipta Ghosh, then director general of the Ordnance Factory Board. The company approached Ganton to get its name removed from the government’s blacklist and paid the US company $ 5,30,000.

ACCUSATION 3

ECI Telecom, an Israeli company, was in real trouble when the commerce ministry had imposed anti-dumping duties worth $ 100 million against the company. That is when the company decided to get in touch the 'solution provider', the US-based Ganton Ltd, supposedly owned partly by Abhishek Verma and promised it to pay $ 1 million if the latter could get the duty waived off.

-

The series of allegations have not come from any Indian investigation or intelligence agency. The body of evidence that reinforces these allegations through a bunch of documents of about 100 pages comes from one C Edmonds Allen, a US attorney, with whom Abhishek Verma got into an agreement to manage the latter’s funds worth $ 410 million, according to two contracts signed in 2000 and 2004.

Verma also got the American attorney to open the US company Ganton Ltd allegedly for both laundering his funds and doing business with various overseas clients. Allen fell out with Verma in the late 2011, when a European, Didier Tytgadt, informed him that a Mauritius-based company MYC Ltd was his, and not Verma’s, as Verma had claimed. This was also the time that Verma started putting pressure on Allen to raise fictitious invoices to defraud Tytgadt off his money. When Allen refused to do his bidding, Verma threatened with getting him summoned to India by the government authorities and getting him jailed.

In January this year, Verma began the process of getting the $ 410 million released from the escrow account he had that was managed by Allen. First, Verma issued him instructions to release the funds. When the US attorney did not transfer the money, he got an American legal firm to send him a legal notice. When even that did not help, he filed a legal suit in a US district court on 15 February 2012.

Allen, meanwhile, had begun his rearguard action. He wrote the first letter of allegations on 10 February, addressed to Pradip Kumar, the chief vigilance commissioner, giving the history and details of his dealings with Verma and his associates. Allen sent copies of that letter to the Central Bureau of Investigation, the Enforcement Directorate, the Central Economic Intelligence Bureau and interestingly, the Federal Bureau of Investigation of the USA. From then on, Allen kept on writing letters: he wrote to the defence minister A K Antony, the Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju, the home minister P Chidambaram and the commerce minister Anand Sharma. He bombarded the CBIw and the Enforcement Directorate with emails. But, he faced a wall of stony silence.

Allen knew Verma had political influence in India. Verma often bragged about it. Also, some documents in Allen’s possession reflected the depths of Verma’s influence in the United Progressive Alliance government.

Amongst the series of documents that he now released through the India Against Corruption organisation, there is an email that showed to what extent Verma had suborned the government system.

Writing to one Zeev Kaftori of Israel on 17 December 2011, Verma said that there had been a meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and the Minister for External Affairs S M Krishna that day, where Krishna would be asked to visit Israel on 9 and 10 February.

Verma also claimed that Krishna, following the visit, would talk of closer Indo-Israeli ties and recommend removal of the anti-dumping duty imposed on ECI Telecom.

Later two officials of Verma’s company Sig Sauer India and its parent company, chief executive Ron Cohen and Lueke, had two meetings scheduled with people in the government and the Congress top brass. One of them was an hour-long meeting on 6 December 2011 at 3 pm with Rahul Gandhi.
The next meeting was scheduled the next day at 4 pm with Vivek Rae, director general (acquisitions) of the ministry of defence.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 15 Feb 2013 20:52

Ramana even though no investigations has been done on these british deals for obvious reasons but your thought process can not be dismissed out of hand .Having lived and worked there for many years in the past I can only say from personal experience that as individuals I have nothing against the British people in general and I found many a smart and nice people but if you piss them off in any way or they do not like you for whatever reason they will hit you behind your back and you may not even know it.
Two fellow white doctors asked me innocently about my experience and I told them a few incidents that had racist tinge to them and I am certain these were passed on to the consultant surgeon who months later punished me for that in a way that I discovered only by accident. In the interview at another hospital he made totally unfair remarks that precluded me from the job. It had no impact on my career than or now but is a window into the behaviour of the Britisg upper classes.Before I finished my tenure with this consultant and on the last day he comes and specifically asked me that I must use his reference and he was very nice about it! This is the extent they will go to punish you.If the interviewing surgeon had not told me I would not have even known what happened.

GeorgeM · Post by **GeorgeM** » 15 Feb 2013 20:57

So the argument is that, this is not really bribe but commission etc. I guess commission, like you pay your real estate agent or broker, is when they do the whole research, study etc and do most of the paper work as well for you. But here everything is done by the armed forces and babus but still some bloody middle man needs commission, for what !!

But the real deal is how MMS and Saint Antony is dealing with this - 12 choppers in the deal, 50% paid already, just 3 delivered !! Now they want to stop payment and kill the deal. Who is the loser !! Darwin Awards for exemplary stupidity and still manage to be alive.

Boy why do we deserve these yahoos.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2013 21:02

So if AKA was getting letters even in early 2012 what was holding him back from using proper channels for inquiry instead of lame duck Indian Embassy channels?
He is getting sorrier by the day.

snahata, Good luck. BTW Indian elite also has same characteristics of backstabbing with unseen hands.

Very clear that Rajiv Gandhi broke some new ground in fund raising which was not there before. SG is taking it to new levels beyond his imagination.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Feb 2013 21:34

ToI reporting that the govt. is going to scrap the deal. I'm guessing they will soon scrap the Light helo deal as well. They have already frozen it. I'm glad the "VVIPs" won't get to fly around in five-star AW101s. But I'm sad that the Army will have to wait several more years to replace their rickety old Chetaks.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 15 Feb 2013 21:47

But no one is going to ask, will they get the 50% money back that the they have already paid (and only 25% of the goods recieved?). Otherwise, it is best way to do business with India. Let the Indian govt pay 100% of the money, deliver 10% and make away with 90% (never mind that the original deal was anyway 100% inflated). Is this the trick Mafia family is playing with us and we are falling for it? Shade of Special 26, you are happy to catch the bribe (which will never lead to the real culprit), where as the real culprit not only does away with the money but also the pre paid sum?
The EVM will anyway take care of any electroral issues, there is no consequence of these scandals and it is a good way to earn money quickly. Afterall CWG happens ones in 20 years, of even the 2G allotments happen once in a decade or 5 years, plus you have to work hard, many people take cuts, it is a huge commitment on part of the Mafia family to earn these scam monet, def deals are efficient!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Feb 2013 22:11

ramana wrote:<SNIP>Very clear that Rajiv Gandhi broke some new ground in fund raising which was not there before. SG is taking it to new levels beyond his imagination.

ramana, Ravi Rikhye of Orbat.Com has always maintained that it was SG who engineered the Bofors arrangement. Earlier, IG used the Defense deals to enrich the Congress while SG started the trend of using it for first family directly.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 15 Feb 2013 22:53

What other deals do we have with Finmeccania ?