Corruption in Arms Deals - News and Analysis

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 17 Feb 2013 07:08

Here's a theory - what if Italy is trying to arm twist the UPA government to release the Italian marines by threatening to release names? Or maybe an under the table deal has already been reached to release the marines in the future (which is why Italy is now backtracking and has refused to share more details)?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Feb 2013 11:04

sourab_c wrote:Here's a theory - what if Italy is trying to arm twist the UPA government to release the Italian marines by threatening to release names? Or maybe an under the table deal has already been reached to release the marines in the future (which is why Italy is now backtracking and has refused to share more details)?

That's exactlty what they are doing.

St antony may pre empt all by cancelling the deal in which case the $h!t hits the fan and eyataly takes a major hit. The "FAMILY" is also in the cross hairs.

In which case st antony may well blow his chances of becoming the next PM after MMS

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Feb 2013 11:23

I'm not so sure.Italy,like many EU nations are in serious eco difficulties.Losing billions of $s worth in defence contracts would be a grievous blow.At stake are at least $10B orders which Italy would've got (naval helos and aux. vessels,radar and C&C systems,MMR aircraft,plus FMs stake in other EU def. companies).There are two factors,the cut-throat Italian politics where "bunga-bunga" Berlo is trying to make a comeback-and some of the kickbacks were allegedly to have been used in election funding,plus rivalry with other def. contractors esp. Sikorsky.Asv I pointed out earlier,the AW vs Sikosrsky enmity is a long standing one,the USMC VVIP helo order a sore point,as the AW-101 won the contract only for Sik to have allegedly sabotaged the deal.

There is no doubt that the helo is the best in its class and has performed very well in Afghanistan.Rohit has said that the helo stood on its won merits,no doubt about that,it even won the USMC VVIP helo contest for Obama's helos.It would've been perfect as heavy multi-role helo for the IN's carriers too.A tragedy that a fine product is now being consigned to the dustbin thanks to a sordid kickback affair.At stake is also the Rafale deal which is being targeted by way of "association",as some weaponry for the Rafale is being built by a co. where FM have a stake.As I mentioned,this is really an EU scandal because of the interlocking nature of EU defence industries.To know who is behind the leaks and fuelling the fire,ask the Q,"Cui Bono?"

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 17 Feb 2013 11:26

chetak wrote:
sourab_c wrote:Here's a theory - what if Italy is trying to arm twist the UPA government to release the Italian marines by threatening to release names? Or maybe an under the table deal has already been reached to release the marines in the future (which is why Italy is now backtracking and has refused to share more details)?
That's exactlty what they are doing.

St antony may pre empt all by cancelling the deal in which case the $h!t hits the fan and eyataly takes a major hit. The "FAMILY" is also in the cross hairs.

In which case st antony may well blow his chances of becoming the next PM after MMS

^^This theory will be proved if Italian marines are released in coming few months for whatever XYZ reasons without serving a jail term in India. As far as cover up is concerned it already in full swing. Interviews by SP Tyagi (Hindi/English both) on DD. Italians refusing to reveal details about the investigations. Token cancellation of the deal.(I don't know what will happen to the 3 choppers already inducted). 35 point fact by MoD. CBI sent to Italy to do the needful so that the 'FAMILY' name is safeguarded and kept within wraps.
I was reading in some article that both middle men had long family connections with CONgress party.

This is the perfect case for CBI to at least work once for the sake of the Country rather than CONgress party. Don't worry about the consequences and do what is needful and right.
I heard CAG(the only working GoI organization in IN) Chief Vinod Rai saying about publishing a report on the Chop-a-scam deal. Is it out?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Feb 2013 11:48

Sagar,how can one hide the huge amounts allegedly paid to AV via his cos. in Mauritius,etc.? The fun is going to be when the FM chief "Pippo" Orsi,meets his accusers and the whistleblower/s.It would be fun to witness the cross-examination of the acccused and the accusers at the trial.Our local johnnies will be busy destroying as much evidence as they can so that any probe,legal investigation takes as many years as it did on Bofors and throwing as much mud in the Opposition's direction and the Tyagis .In fact that's exactly what two of the alleged middle-men were saying in their taped conversations-one saying that he would probably be dead before the case ended!

What is astonishing is that there is absolutely NO mention anywhere as to who were the top MOD officials at the time who negotiated the deal,esp. the financials.As the former ACM said,after the IAF approved the technicals,it was the MOD which actually chose the winner and placed the order.
A former vice-chief friend told me when I had a chat about choosing the MMRCA winner,that the IAF would rarely "rank" the contestants,but point out in detail the best and worst features of each aircraft,but in a subtle manner in which its preference could be clearly seen.In any case the chief of the day certainly would confide off the record to his DM which system his service preferred.After that it would be a simple job to indicate to both/all contestants the amount of kickback which would be included in the tender price.

The ingenuity in this deal is the alleged manner in which some of the payoffs were legally made by paying for "software development" to a Chandigarh firm in regular small sums that did not attract intense scrutiny by the authorities.Why aren't the names of those allegedly close to the Congress not named.,one supposed to be close to Rahul's coterie? Is there an on-going attempt to gag the media?

RajD · Post by **RajD** » 17 Feb 2013 12:21

sourab_c wrote:Here's a theory - what if Italy is trying to arm twist the UPA government to release the Italian marines by threatening to release names? Or maybe an under the table deal has already been reached to release the marines in the future (which is why Italy is now backtracking and has refused to share more details)?

I think the reason might be different because all you have said seems to have either already happened or has amicably been settled long back so, no need to arm twisting now. Those marines were allowed to go to Italy in order to celebrate X'mas with their families and they have come back for the trail also. It might be the first ever instance when an under trail accused of foreign origin have been allowed to leave the shores just for celebrations and festivities or otherwise. This magnanimity is never shown to even an Indian national by our courts, forget about when they are undergoing trail anywhere abroad. So, in all probability the things have been already worked out, and what take the cake is the recently signed bilateral treaty between India and Italy that provides for facilitating repatriation of the convicts either way so that they can serve the jail term in their respective countries ( One can read between the lines ).
This news was not given prominence at all, most probably I read it in IE last week in some obscure corner. I tried to find it in its e-paper edition but could not find it.
The malaise runs much deeper.
Regards.
Rajendra

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 17 Feb 2013 12:22

Philip wrote:Sagar,how can one hide the huge amounts allegedly paid to AV via his cos. in Mauritius,etc.? The fun is going to be when the FM chief "Pippo" Orsi,meets his accusers and the whistleblower/s.It would be fun to witness the cross-examination of the acccused and the accusers at the trial.Our local johnnies will be busy destroying as much evidence as they can so that any probe,legal investigation takes as many years as it did on Bofors and throwing as much mud in the Opposition's direction and the Tyagis .In fact that's exactly what two of the alleged middle-men were saying in their taped conversations-one saying that he would probably be dead before the case ended!

What is astonishing is that there is absolutely NO mention anywhere as to who were the top MOD officials at the time who negotiated the deal,esp. the financials.Can't agree more with you on this point Philip ji. There is absolutely NO mention of any GoI/MoD/PMO officials who ultimately negotiated the deal after BJP/Brajesh Mishra. Its a clean slate/blank. As the former ACM said,after the IAF approved the technicals,it was the MOD which actually chose the winner and placed the order.

A former vice-chief friend told me when I had a chat about choosing the MMRCA winner,that the IAF would rarely "rank" the contestants,but point out in detail the best and worst features of each aircraft,but in a subtle manner in which its preference could be clearly seen.In any case the chief of the day certainly would confide off the record to his DM which system his service preferred.After that it would be a simple job to indicate to both/all contestants the amount of kickback which would be included in the tender price.
Without going into details but this is exactly what happens after a deal is finalized/vendor is selected by GoI. Its in-built into the system. If work need to be done/move forward, this step is like any other step in the process.
The ingenuity in this deal is the alleged manner in which some of the payoffs were legally made by paying for "software development" to a Chandigarh firm in regular small sums that did not attract intense scrutiny by the authorities.Why aren't the names of those allegedly close to the Congress not named.,one supposed to be close to Rahul's coterie? Is there an on-going attempt to gag the media?Because this matter directly involves 'THE FAMILY' :mrgreen:I couldn't find the article where it mentioned the connection of both the middle men, in fact through generations, with CONgress party. And yes one alleged close to Rahul's coterie. And about media, less talk about the better. With undieTV being the current Bast*** child of CONgress. The others are gagging up to take its place.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Feb 2013 12:26

Philip wrote:I'm not so sure.Italy,like many EU nations are in serious eco difficulties.Losing billions of $s worth in defence contracts would be a grievous blow.At stake are at least $10B orders which Italy would've got (naval helos and aux. vessels,radar and C&C systems,MMR aircraft,plus FMs stake in other EU def. companies).There are two factors,the cut-throat Italian politics where "bunga-bunga" Berlo is trying to make a comeback-and some of the kickbacks were allegedly to have been used in election funding,plus rivalry with other def. contractors esp. Sikorsky.Asv I pointed out earlier,the AW vs Sikosrsky enmity is a long standing one,the USMC VVIP helo order a sore point,as the AW-101 won the contract only for Sik to have allegedly sabotaged the deal.

There is no doubt that the helo is the best in its class and has performed very well in Afghanistan.Rohit has said that the helo stood on its won merits,no doubt about that,it even won the USMC VVIP helo contest for Obama's helos.It would've been perfect as heavy multi-role helo for the IN's carriers too.A tragedy that a fine product is now being consigned to the dustbin thanks to a sordid kickback affair.At stake is also the Rafale deal which is being targeted by way of "association",as some weaponry for the Rafale is being built by a co. where FM have a stake.As I mentioned,this is really an EU scandal because of the interlocking nature of EU defence industries.To know who is behind the leaks and fuelling the fire,ask the Q,"Cui Bono?"

Rafale deal targetting is plain old british enterprise.

The limeys are sensing a possible chance and in the time honoured methods used for derailing Indian defence deals will now go all out with innuendo and false suggestions as the eyetalians do not have much media backing in India.

But eyetalians ke pas MA hai.....

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 17 Feb 2013 12:34

But eyetalians ke pas MA hai.....

^With the current Chop-a-deal hogging the limelight all over. There is absolutely NO way any other defense deal will see the sunrise this year, at least till the upcoming general elections in 2014.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Feb 2013 12:47

SagarAg wrote:
chetak wrote:{quote="sourab_c"}Here's a theory - what if Italy is trying to arm twist the UPA government to release the Italian marines by threatening to release names? Or maybe an under the table deal has already been reached to release the marines in the future (which is why Italy is now backtracking and has refused to share more details)?

That's exactly what they are doing.

St antony may preempt all by cancelling the deal in which case the $h!t hits the fan and eyataly takes a major hit. The "FAMILY" is also in the cross hairs.

In which case st antony may well blow his chances of becoming the next PM after MMS
^^This theory will be proved if Italian marines are released in coming few months for whatever XYZ reasons without serving a jail term in India. As far as cover up is concerned it already in full swing. Interviews by SP Tyagi (Hindi/English both) on DD. Italians refusing to reveal details about the investigations. Token cancellation of the deal.(I don't know what will happen to the 3 choppers already inducted). 35 point fact by MoD. CBI sent to Italy to do the needful so that the 'FAMILY' name is safeguarded and kept within wraps.
I was reading in some article that both middle men had long family connections with CONgress party.

This is the perfect case for CBI to at least work once for the sake of the Country rather than CONgress party. Don't worry about the consequences and do what is needful and right.
I heard CAG(the only working GoI organization in IN) Chief Vinod Rai saying about publishing a report on the Chop-a-scam deal. Is it out?

the eyetalians will recieve a token sentence in India but will be shipped of to eyetaliee to serve the sentences. Doubtless with full day parole in 29 out of the 30 days in every month.

Like I said, unke pas MA hai.......

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Feb 2013 15:46

btw - if the vvip heli deal falls apart then the biggest losers will be the brits - the choppers are made in the UK (former westland factory) and already newspapers are worrying about job losses related to this

the rafale deal is too late to be scuppered now by the british, it is almost done

the british still have hawk and if they are not stupid might get other things too. cameron is changing tack for his next india trip - he is promoting small and medium enterprise companies to export to india - actually this is a more viable route for tech transfer to india in my opinion. mid level engineering - particularly electro-mechanical and automated systems is reasonably good in this sector in the UK, but they lack low cost production capabilities - and may be ripe for being bought out by indian entrepreneurs

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 17 Feb 2013 21:10

rohitvats wrote: Well, pardon for being blunt, but I have a feeling here that you're batting for Congress here.

Well, I'm not - just merely stating the facts. Just because I haven't sided with UPA bashing doesn't mean I'm pro- UPA.

First question - why should Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) be informed about ex-ACM Tyagi being under scanner? The Ministry of Home Affairs or MOD (and by extension - IB and R&AW) are perfectly capable of dealing with any issue w/o CCS coming into picture - so, why are you stating that CCS was informed? What purpose did it serve? Do any of these ministries need permission from CCS to proceed against an ex-Service Chief?

This is the same question I am asking. Why were they informed and what were they informed of exactly by the intel agencies? Lobbying is not illegal though - its a common practice all over the world as I am sure you are aware.

Second question - if ex-ACM was under scanner and found indulging in activities inimical to national security - why was he not arrested or his activities stopped?

Again I agree with you here - simple fact is we don't know what the intel agencies were informed of, whether he was found to do something illegal or not.

I'll split the third question into 2.

Third question - If the entire wrong doing in AW-101 deal is his work - and if intelligence agencies were tracking his activities - why was the deal allowed to go through?

Well, even if they knew that there was an element of corruption in the deal - what is the position of the IAF on the aircraft compared to competitors - what did the IAF tell the CCS at the time of approval? FYI, chiefs of all three forces, intel agencies are also part of the CCS.

After all, if one were to believe you, UPA/INC are prepared because they know who is the villain of the story and can clearly put the blame on the individual - ACM Tyagi in this case. Was the UPA/INC waiting for the scam to come out to blow the lid of the main culprit?

Perhaps! But I think there is more to it - Look, if you sift through the media articles at the time of the marines case - it was clear that the Italians made a threat to UPA that if they don't release the marines - an investigation over the deal will be made. Well, as you can see, the marines were NOT released and round about the same time that decision was taken, the investigation into AW101 was first initiated.

And please - just because I say they are prepared for the fall out doesn't mean I am defending them!! It doesn't take a genius to realise that if someone makes a threat 3 or so months ago that you make preparations to defend against that threat. So please drop the petty accusations or at least clarify what exactly I am saying before you begin to make accusations.

Sorry sir, but you're deflecting the blame hereby giving selective information.

If anything I have asked for more info on the case than what has been publicly made available. I don't think its too unreasonable to not jump to conclusions so quickly.

If anything comes out of your one liners, it is this: that the agencies - working at the behest of powers-that-be have enough material on Tyagi to pin the blame on him or, deflect the attention on him to take the usual suspects out of the media and public gaze.

There is a whole list of scenarios that could have taken place including corrupt politicians (across the spectrum of opposition too) taking their cut via benami or whatever route. We don't know much just yet - which is why I asked for more info!

-----------------------------------------------
Govt reveals ‘Skyfall’ trail to Vajpayee, UPA seal on NDA choice

SUJAN DUTTA

AK Antony at Hyderabad House in New Delhi on Thursday. Picture by Prem Singh
New Delhi, Feb. 14: The Union government today came out with a chronology of events leading to the choice of the AgustaWestland “Skyfall” VVIP chopper that shows that Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s office had asked the Indian Air Force to change specifications following which the Anglo-Italian firm went on to win a euro 556-million (about Rs 3,550-crore) contract.

Defence minister A.K. Antony has also directed his ministry to write to AgustaWestland asked if it had paid bribes to win the contract. A defence ministry statement says the contract empowers it to invoke provisions to cancel the deal, recover the cash and blacklist Finmeccanica-AgustaWestland.

The defence ministry fact sheet broadly corroborates the version of Air Chief Marshal (retired) Shashi P. Tyagi who said yesterday that the then national security adviser, Brajesh Mishra, issued the directive in a meeting on November 19, 2003. George Fernandes was then the defence minister.

Air Chief Marshal Tyagi has been named in an Italian court and alleged to have had commissions routed to him through three Indian middlemen, who are his cousins, and two Italians who were consulted by Agusta and its holding company Finmeccanica.

Tyagi, who was the IAF chief from January 1, 2005, to March 31, 2006, has denied any involvement as detailed in the preliminary findings of the Italian court.

Brajesh Mishra died on September 28 last year. Fernandes, 83, is a patient of a brain disease that has caused loss of memory and cognition.

The government fact sheet also notes that the lowering of the operational requirement for the luxury “office-in-the-sky” helicopter to ferry VVIPs from 6,000 metres (19,685 feet) to 4,500 metres (14,763 feet) gave it greater choice because it widened the competition and allowed three companies (AgustaWestland, Sikorsky and Russian Rosoboronexport) to participate.

The preliminary findings of the Italian court state that bribes totalling more than Rs 350 crore were paid through a complex pipeline going through third countries, leading for some to a “windfall from skyfall” — bribes for the contract for the helicopter that featured in the latest James Bond movie.

In the time that it took the government to finally contract the deal, the defence ministry saw three ministers: George Fernandes, who quit with the exit of the NDA government in May 2004; Pranab Mukherjee, who took over as defence minister in May 2004 and left to take over the finance portfolio in October 2006, and Antony, who took over following Mukherjee and continues to this day.

During each of their tenures, the contract for the VVIP helicopters marked important milestones: under Fernandes, the decision was taken (1999) and the specifications frozen (2003); under Mukherjee the tender was issued (September 26, 2006) and under Antony the contract was signed (February 8, 2010).

Berlusconi on bribe

Italy’s former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said bribes were a necessary part of doing business globally, defending former Finmeccanica chief Giuseppe Orsi, who was arrested in Milan on Tuesday.

“Bribes are a phenomenon that exists and it’s useless to deny the existence of these necessary situations,” Berlusconi said. “These are not crimes. We’re talking about paying a commission to someone in that country. Why, because those are the rules in that country,” he was quoted as saying by Bloomberg.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Feb 2013 22:02

rohit said

First question - why should Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) be informed about ex-ACM Tyagi being under scanner? The Ministry of Home Affairs or MOD (and by extension - IB and R&AW) are perfectly capable of dealing with any issue w/o CCS coming into picture - so, why are you stating that CCS was informed? What purpose did it serve? Do any of these ministries need permission from CCS to proceed against an ex-Service Chief?

shyamd said

This is the same question I am asking. Why were they informed and what were they informed of exactly by the intel agencies? Lobbying is not illegal though - its a common practice all over the world as I am sure you are aware.

he is asking Why are you putting that info here?? is there a public source of that info??

link??

if not and you are posting it here first - you possibly have some vested interest to introduce that here.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 17 Feb 2013 22:35

In effect, you are saying that because I haven't decided that UPA is guilty of something - I have a vested interest? Umm.. okay

I didn't base my comments on the below but here is an article talking about similar stuff:

Tyagi’s journey from consultant to lobbyist in dirty defence deals

Almost six years before SP Tyagi came under scanner for links with alleged middlemen in the AgustaWestland VVIP helicopter deal, intelligence agencies had informed the UPA government that the former chief of air staff was lobbying on behalf of mega defence contractors.

While there is bar on former defence officials taking private employment within one year of leaving the service but the guidelines about taking a consultancy job are not very clear.

A proposal to form unambiguous guidelines is pending in the ministry of defence for quite some time.

When HT tried to get in touch with Tyagi we were told that a statement was issued on Wednesday and there was nothing more to add. A detailed text message sent to him was also not replied to.

Classified reports reviewed by HT show that first report about Tyagi’s alleged lobbying was generated in 2007, immediately after he retired as the air chief. He remained the air chief between 2004 and 2007.

In the 2007 intelligence report, the government was informed that Tyagi is advising an American aviation major on medium multi-role combat aircraft deal which eventually went to the French company Dassault Rafale.

Under the deal, India will be procuring 126 aircraft from the French company.

Besides the deal, according to the intel report, Tyagi was also providing consultancy to a defence contractor for the low level quick reaction missile system deal.

The deal worth Rs.5,000 crore was bagged by Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) for providing its Barak 8 air defence system. Incidentally, the CBI is probing the IAI for alleged irregularities in the procurement of earlier version of Barak missile.

According to sources, before signing the Barak 8 deal in 2009 with the IAI, the cabinet committee on security (CCS) was informed about the pending probe against the IAI but the deal went through as the CCS was informed that the country needs surface to air missiles to guard its forward air bases.

Then there was another report in 2009 which again talked about Tyagi’s activities in the aviation sector.

The report said the former air chief was advising for the airport modernisation projects in India.

Tyagi also joined a consultancy firm Williams Global Advisors as a founding director in August 2011. The firm provides consultancy in the aviation and aerospace sector.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Feb 2013 00:35

shyamd wrote:In effect, you are saying that because I haven't decided that UPA is guilty of something - I have a vested interest? Umm.. okay

I didn't base my comments on the below but here is an article talking about similar stuff:

Tyagi’s journey from consultant to lobbyist in dirty defence deals <SNIP>

Well, the way you'd worded your post, it seemed you were directly pointing fingers at ACM Tyagi. And now, you've come out with the above news report - which w/o providing a shred of information or evidence about any wrong-doing by ex-ACM makes you believe that he is some sort of shady character. And voila, by extension, must have done some hanky-panky in AW-101 deal as well.

See the hit-job?

As I said earlier, it is quite clear from the way news has appeared in the public domain that ex-ACM will be made the fall guy - at least in the public perception. The courts or inquiry may well give him clean chit but he will take the flak.

Having said that, did people listen or read through the latest bit of story about Christian Michels:

Well, it seems that one of the ways to pass on the money to him was to appoint him/his company to buy back the junk AW helicopters rotting in Mumbai. The deal to purchase back these derelicts with India was 900,000 Pounds while Christian Michel was paid Euro 18 Million for this. This is one lead that Italian prosecutors had unearthed during their investigation.

Now, ask yourself this - How was Mr. Christian Michel sure of bagging the deal for these derelict choppers?

And there is another data point - Mr. Giuseppe Orsi, CEO of Finmeccanica, had cut two deals - one with Christian Michel and other with Ralph Haschke and Carlo Gerosa. Now, in all the reports that have come out, the latter two have been linked with T3 Brothers and by extension ex-ACM Tyagi.

But the million dollar question is this - what role did Christian Michel play? What was he there to influence and manage? For this, I think the answer lies in the business activities of this father - and which by extension were inherited by him.

What is quite obvious - and which people are deliberately not bringing out - is that there is someone very powerful involved who could get such a deal through w/o a single glitch. ACM Tyagi may well be involved - but the levers required to be pushed for this deal to go through could not have been managed by him.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 01:01

shyam

if you had posted the link in your original post - we wouldn't have said anything

(even if it is Hindustan times which is a congress outlet)

now looking at the timeline i wonder whether coordination broke down and you posted too soon

next time please post the link if you are bringing in new info

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 18 Feb 2013 01:11

rohitvats wrote: Well, the way you'd worded your post, it seemed you were directly pointing fingers at ACM Tyagi. And now, you've come out with the above news report - which w/o providing a shred of information or evidence about any wrong-doing by ex-ACM makes you believe that he is some sort of shady character. And voila, by extension, must have done some hanky-panky in AW-101 deal as well.

See the hit-job?

errr... no not really, I said the same in my third reply:

It poses a lot of questions, why was he picked up under the scanner by the agencies? Thats the important question and why were the CCS informed of this and what effect did this info have?

Lobbying etc is not illegal and its quite common in india and many countries for retired babus, defence wallas. However, its common knowledge that a lot of these lobbyists, mil sales walla's double up as intel operatives for the west etc especially in india. My suspicion is he was under the scanner for this reason.

I also think that INC/UPA is more than prepared for the fall out of this case.

So that answers that...

I got no other issue with the rest of your post. See Sudhir Chaudhry, he was the big agent earlier - especially tight with Israel and linked in the Barak deal.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 18 Feb 2013 01:14

Surya wrote:shyam

if you had posted the link in your original post - we wouldn't have said anything

( for others yea yea I know its hindustan times - which for ages is a congress outlet)

now looking at the timeline i wonder whether coordination broke down and you posted too soon

next time please post the link if you are bringing in new info

So is media now the only way that info gets out? And your post reveals that you are more interested in tarring people than actually getting into the story - this shows you are not really interested in national issues and more interested in petty arguments. Quite sad really.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 01:19

and national interests means being very doubtful
of those who like to be ahead of the curve

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Feb 2013 01:22

Surya wrote:shyam

if you had posted the link in your original post - we wouldn't have said anything

now looking at the timeline i wonder whether coordination broke down and you posted too soon

next time please post the link if you are bringing in new info

Surya - I'm saying this again.

This was a done deal on all counts. Someone simply took protection money. IMO, this is where the role of Christian Michel is important. And the key to the whole game.

Unless, someone can show the money trail clearly, nothing will come out of it. And even after that, how will you show for what the money was paid? There has to be quid-pro-quo. If all the paper work is in order, what favors will you show against which money was paid? And mind you, all the papers will be in order - after all, there are so many parties involved.

How come people have missed the biggest irony in this drama by MOD and Saint Antony - They have already stated that the deal was fair and square at their end. They are not even looking at the helicopter RFP and selection process. This particular part of the deal, where favors are supposed to have been done, has been declared kosher.

Coming to Italians - well, they are not exactly concerned about the bribery of Indian officials. But the routing of money to fund Italian political parties and purchase influence. So, they have established that money was paid by AgustaWestland CEO for securing the deal (and his appointment as CEO of Finmeccanica) and have quoted some names and the money trail.

They are least bothered by the 'last-mile-connectivity' i.e. How was the money paid? To whom was it paid? How much was paid? And why was it paid? Sure, they have some names and the money trail - but it ends at a point which is crucial of Indian investigators to establish the Quid pro quo and bribery angle.

So, for a proper inquiry to reveal anything, the whole selection process will need to be sifted through with a fine comb. And fat chance of that happening as this will point fingers at PMO, SPG and Saint Antony and by extension, Congress.

Former COAS Khrishnaswamy was on TV calling the deal as an expensive one - well, if that be the case, then MOD and its PNC will have to answer the agencies. ACM Tyagi can come into picture only on technical counts.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 01:27

trying to find out from some italian friends what their media is saying

and only hope of things coming out is if theItalians or swiss find something

Added later

my extremely cynical italian friend tells me that the even the opposition is silent

this means its more of an Indian angle and someone important enough that they do nto want to rock the boat.

so like all thieves they watch out for each other

he tells me that this will not go as far as we may want.

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 18 Feb 2013 01:50

Very strange and scary that the whole of India has made up their minds on the Chopper scam..on what one would consider as very choppy facts ( for now)..The Italians have not even shared the docs in a public forum ( that is their court systems..) or for that matter with the offical sources.

Observing the newsbites.. Do we still have the mindset - word of a "white man/men" is holier than that of an Indian/Indians.

The T- brothers have denied any involvement..At least this their offical stated facts on the Indian Media. At this point...why is everyone in the media rushing to spin this out of control.....

Just fail to understand why the rush to cancel the deal on the UPA part...what if the other side of the coin ...(once this goes to trail in Italy) proves this to be not as we are led to believe now.

The Media needs to be factual on this and not create a hysteria on every little fact that comes out...afterall..isnt India's national security at stake...Lets not sell this to Tabloid journalism..which is where this is heading..for now.

At the end of the day...this a a good worldclass chopper ..just like the Bofors is as an Artillery gun.. Why are INDIAN Armed forces being deprived of their needs..based bad apples ( in/or out of the country)...

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 18 Feb 2013 04:17

Don't bring white man brown man into this the corruption in India is beyond question
In other countries once the wheels of justice start moving they do get to the point of punishing the guilty

Don't you get it the highest number I Swiss bank accounts and the amounts are highest from
India. The number of scams from fodder to common wealth games toilets is stinking to high skies

Hoton pe sachayee .... Is all bs and in ji's deah may Ganga beti hai only

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 04:19

pentaiah

ignore it

not worth wasting time

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Feb 2013 05:09

Telugu news paper Andhrajyothy has an article yesterday on Christian Micheal's father Ulf Gang(?). Apparently UG was on RAW payroll and was used by them to track SG's movements when she visited Briturd land during PVNR regime.

Afterwards CM took over the empire Om UG and kinda kicked him out and sided with the family.

Interesting times...

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 18 Feb 2013 05:14

Bottom Line.. The press of india has taken the Former Chief of the Air force to the gutters..based on someone that they have never ever interviewed..all based on what some prosecutor in Itlay has put out in media to satisfy their own politics..

So ..the man who was in-charge of the national defence ( AIR FORCE) has a open season marked on his back... to be dragged in the gutter - base on what...no formal interview with the Italian prosecutor ( Let alone someone in the Italian embassy in delhi)..no interview with Orsi or Haschke..

Oh wait a minute now... now the blame shifts to a V.P in Tata also...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/middl ... e/1075744/

And off course now a new family comes to light so this is the T family and B family......

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 13101.aspx

Also..for all that have a fantasy of this being a revenge for the Italian Marines.. Let me remind you..That is total BS...

This is become nothing more than Tabloid journalism and is a shame and sham....

Jai Hind...

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 18 Feb 2013 06:46

RamaY wrote:Telugu news paper Andhrajyothy has an article yesterday on Christian Micheal's father Ulf Gang(?). Apparently UG was on RAW payroll and was used by them to track SG's movements when she visited Briturd land during PVNR regime.

Afterwards CM took over the empire Om UG and kinda kicked him out and sided with the family.

Interesting times...

I read some where that the UG ? was close to RG and involved in defense deals in Europe. So when Christian Micheal name poped up news channel/paper digged out his father and relation with RG.

According to me this Christian Micheal character is more interesting than the T family(I hope I didn't violate copyright

). It seems to me that Christian Micheal got biggest share as middle man than any other involved.

-Ankit

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Feb 2013 07:41

Surya wrote: this means its more of an Indian angle and someone important enough that they do nto want to rock the boat.

It's very useful for other nations to have a compromised govt in India.

Now, whatever they want, they can get it done by UPA. Obviously "the Family" will do anything to avoid jail.

If Subramanian Swamy is to be believed, the opposition is also co-opted, a big shot opposition Damaad also made money.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 08:17

well to know the opposition is compromised all one has togo back and see that the Bofors probe went nowhere during their rule

they are all compromised

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 18 Feb 2013 08:18

I only hope INC lists all the culprits in BJP. That many corrupt in 2014 field.

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 18 Feb 2013 09:04

Surya..is your cynical Italian friend associated with this case.. or is it just that he is an Italian. what is the relevance of below, statement...

Surya wrote:trying to find out from some italian friends what their media is saying

and only hope of things coming out is if theItalians or swiss find something

Added later

my extremely cynical italian friend tells me that the even the opposition is silent

this means its more of an Indian angle and someone important enough that they do nto want to rock the boat.

so like all thieves they watch out for each other

he tells me that this will not go as far as we may want.

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 18 Feb 2013 09:10

Seriously...Are you smoking some funny sticks here...

Lets look at you brilliant logic..for the 2 marines the Italians will

- will make sure they get an Italian CEO of a company behind the bars..
- Loose almost a Billion dollar of a contract
- get themselves banned for the next 10 years from doing business in India (includes Defence, Infrastructure, etc)..

YOUR THEORY IS LIKE A TSP MISSILE- WORTHLESS

sourab_c wrote:Here's a theory - what if Italy is trying to arm twist the UPA government to release the Italian marines by threatening to release names? Or maybe an under the table deal has already been reached to release the marines in the future (which is why Italy is now backtracking and has refused to share more details)?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Feb 2013 11:31

Two quick points.I do not think that the Italians are being nasty in not handing over info right now.Remember that the arrest of Pippo has just happened.We are in very early days here and well knowing that there most probably are elements WITHIN the GOI part of the players being pursued,any release of vital info would give the corrupt within the GOI where the head of the Congress party is an Italian,an insight into how much evidence is available and how to counter it.Suddenly witnesses may be bumped off or turn hostile,files disappear,judges resign-you know how dirty tricks are played out on a global and Indian scale.Let's see how it plays out in Italian courts.In recent years,Italian authorities have been making huge headway against organised crime and even "bunga,bunga" Berlo has not been immune to prosecution despite his massive influence.

Therefore,handing over sensitive info to the CBI or any other Indian govt. outfit,which has very little credibility-remember how the hunt for Quattrochi was deliberately put into the hands of our version of Inspector Clouseau and co.,will only damage the Italian prosecution of the corrupt AW executives and any others that might be part of the entire deal.Let's be patient,the truth will out!

According to a TV channel,investigations with the ROC has revealed only one "Christian Michael James" as being on the director's sheet of an Indian co.The surname James has been missing from other reports.What is the man's real name? He appears to be a mysterious kingpin in the whole affair,just as the mysterious "Km Peter Davey" was in the Purulia arms drop case.

Incidentally,the name "Kim" is a very popular name that Brit agents use as an alias because two characters,one from fiction,Kipling's Kim and the other from history,traitor/patriot (depending upon which side of the ideological fence you stand) Kim Philby,were both spies!

nits · Post by **nits** » 18 Feb 2013 13:23

Prem Kumar wrote:Rajiv Gandhi was either a collaborator or a scapegoat in Bofors. Sonia was the prime mover. Since, she was not in national prominence at that time & since a PM was directly implicated, she got away scot free. But one doesnt have to look far. One name says it all - Quattrocchi.

Her numerous shenanigans & power-hunger since then is what convinced me that Dr. Swamy is mostly correct about her. There is a very strong possibility that she was a KGB or Vatican plant all along, used to honey-trap Rajiv. The KGB, especially is known for such very-long-term plants.

If that would have been the case Mig 35 \ Euro would have clinched 18B$ deals by now...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Feb 2013 13:40

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/02/dill ... in-16.html

SPG role in the deal

Was the former SPG chief, BV Wanchoo, rewarded with the governorship of Goa for going along with the political bosses on the AgustaWestland deal? That question has assumed significance because the SPG bosses had exercised an important say in deciding as to which type of choppers should be bought for the use of VVIPs. Since SPG chiefs, because of the very nature of their duties, come in close contact with the VVIPs they are entrusted to protect, it is not ruled out that a close relation of the Gandhis who was recently in the news for all the wrong reasons had something to do with the kickbacks scam. Of course, only a thorough probe conducted independently of the CBI will carry conviction with the people. Goa Governor Wanchoo’s role in going for the Agusta-Westland choppers needs clarification. To begin with, he must answer whether he spent nearly two weeks in Italy to liaise with the chopper suppliers, if yes, why and when.

This is the root of the problem, by deliberately skewing the requirements to add special features, which are of minor importance as chief requirements, like the 3 engine heli -- is the competitive vendor based situation turned to single vendor situation.

This is also the same case with C 17s. Deliberate playing up of irrelevant minor features into "must have" overnight. If there could be honest inquiry, I am sure a paper trail asking IAF to suddenly add requirements would come up.

I only hope we see it soon.

nits · Post by **nits** » 18 Feb 2013 14:18

Sunilchurchill wrote:Seriously...Are you smoking some funny sticks here...

Lets look at you brilliant logic..for the 2 marines the Italians will

- will make sure they get an Italian CEO of a company behind the bars..
- Loose almost a Billion dollar of a contract
- get themselves banned for the next 10 years from doing business in India (includes Defence, Infrastructure, etc)..

YOUR THEORY IS LIKE A TSP MISSILE- WORTHLESS

sourab_c wrote:Here's a theory - what if Italy is trying to arm twist the UPA government to release the Italian marines by threatening to release names? Or maybe an under the table deal has already been reached to release the marines in the future (which is why Italy is now backtracking and has refused to share more details)?

Italy has not set up the whole thing for Marines; but now as this has happened - they will try to secure release of Marines in take some and give some logic in whole episode...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Feb 2013 18:52

"Noddy" TV is now,with info from official sources,says that "Italian prosecutors" are saying that the "family" refers to the Tyagis and that "no other Indians" are involved......"as of now"!
A former Def. Secv. has been brought out of the cobwebs to state that the Brits were "pushing for the deal",the Brit HC says that that is his job(!).

So we now see the AW helicopter "spin" beautifully for the cameras.
The "family" is the Tyagi family children,not our beloved family whose portraits you see in every Congress office! See,the Italians have said that "No other Indians" are involved....as of now.Why should they lie? After all they are just like our Soniaji,does she ever lie? What do they gain?
It is all perfidious Albion,the Britishers,our former colonial masters who are responsible.See how Maggie T. dumped the useless Westlands onto us ....(ops! RG was PM then)! He must've been egged on by Weepy Singh or Arun N.Now David the Cameron is a-visiting,and isn't he going to ask us not to scuttle the deal? Congress hands are clean children.See how white .........'s .are.If you want dirty hands,then look at those of the NDA leadership!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Feb 2013 18:57

Surya..is your cynical Italian friend associated with this case.. or is it just that he is an Italian. what is the relevance of below, statement...

Nope he is no one important. I am not able to be ahead of the curve

He is helpful in translating what goes on in Italian media.

take it for its worth

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Feb 2013 23:21

Philip beat me to it.

NDTV reporter in Italy spoke to a prosecutor (who of course could not come on camera) and they said that as per the data they have, only SP Tyagi and T3 brothers are involved.

So, there you have it...one part of my hypothesis is proved correct. SP Tyagi and T3 brothers will be made the scapegoat in public eye. This will deflect the blame and any name calling as far as politicians are concerned. The NDTV has appropriate target to go hammer and tongs and take the focus away from the first family.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Feb 2013 23:30

But T + T3 got only 100,000 Euros! And Christian Michel got Eu30M and the two Swiss got Eu20M.

All those pious statements about paying the family 100K Euros don't make sense.