The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by sudarshan »

harbans wrote:Pranav ji, Truth as a principle cannot be given the short stick. The rule is that. Exceptions to the rule don't become the Rule and must never be made so. Always the danger lies in making the exception to the rule the rule itself. So if an entity to come into power is using untruth and deceit it will possess no credibility. If a State indulges in untruth and deception to stay in power the result again is the same. The principle value of Truth cannot be a drop now, pick up later sometime kind of adherence.
In that case, I wonder what your thoughts are as to the below:

"Ashwatthama is dead." (Which is what Krishna advised Yudhishtir to say).

"Ashwatthama (the elephant) is dead." (Which is what Yudhishtir actually said).

"No, Ashwatthama, your son, is not dead. He is perfectly safe. It is Ashwatthama, the elephant, who is dead." (Which is what, if I read your post above correctly, you'd want Yudhishtir to say).

Krishna was showing Arjuna a higher principle in the Gita - do your duty, as my (God's) agent, without regard for the consequences.

Krishna tried to get Yudhishtir to also follow this principle. Drona was killing Pandava soldiers by deceit and treachery. So he'd earned a death by deceit and treachery - that was the consequence of his actions, his karmaphala. So God would bring about his death in this manner. Now God (Krishna) was simply giving Yudhishtir an opportunity to act as his agent.

Yudhishtir tried to protect his own ass (sorry to put it so crudely - no offense to Yudhishtir, he's a million times the Dharmatma I'll never be). This is why he mumbled under his breath "the elephant." As a result, his chariot touched the ground, and he later (at the end of his life) got a vision of all his brothers and beloved relatives in hell. I believe this "punishment" was the result of his not trusting God (Krishna), and inserting those words "the elephant" on his own initiative. If he'd completely trusted Krishna and acted as God's agent, there would have been no evil consequence to him.

Now, my question to you, Harbans ji. What if Yudhishtir had gone with the third statement above, the truth, the complete truth, and nothing but the truth, which you seem to be recommending?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

Dharmaraja would have been factually correct if there were ever an Ashwathama who was dead in the past. If the believers of Bhavad Gita were to have their say Dharmaraja would be factually correct even if there ever be an Aswathama who would be dead in the future; after all time is relative.

It is Drona's fault that "Aswathama" meant his son only. It is Drona's too much Raaga that blinded his intellect and diverted him from his duty (fighting the battle).
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

sudarshan wrote:Now, my question to you, Harbans ji. What if Yudhishtir had gone with the third statement above, the truth, the complete truth, and nothing but the truth, which you seem to be recommending?
Truth is higher than Dharma! :mrgreen:
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_20317 »

ShauryaT wrote:
RajeshA wrote: Truth is a nice feature to have when one has dominance and your dominance is secure, but really is of no consequence when one is in revolution mode.
You have the nation-state, that is India, where you are close to a state of state dominance of power, if not entirely secure but certainly not in "revolution" mode. Your so called "revolt" is against the current ideas of the state. The question you have to ask yourself is - are you going to revolt against a set of people also or find a way to carry all of them with you, as Gandhi tried and failed? MKG would himself view the partition of the land as his failure.

India revolution. No go.

But what if we put it in a different way.

Say an Indian comes along and says I will go ahead and evolve so fast, so long and with such intent that I am ultimately able to wreck the part of the system that I believe is wrong and in the process, people can come join me or go against me and in both cases I would be thankful.
And just in case I am wrong I suggest sincerely that the competition find it within itself to match the pace.

Would it still be a revolution declared by this one man.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

Contextuality of Truth

As I understand it, Dharma is driven by intent of an action, and not the action itself. That is why any amount of pragmatism must always have an underlying idealistic honest goal to it. You cannot lie to your conscience. But the interesting question is whether one can have a conscience outside Dharma?

Disclaimer: It does not mean that dharma cannot be found in Adharmic ideologies. Even Adharmic ideologies may be laced with some dharma, though the structure is Adharmic. So just because one is an Adharmic (i.e. belonging to an Adharmic ideology) it does not mean that one would be entirely bereft of conscience.

So Satya becomes subservient to Swadharma, it becomes dependent on how a Dharmic analyzes the situation and judges his best response to act according to his Dharma. If that involves opting for Truth than Truth he will speak. If it involves using deceit than that too may be his Dharma.

E.g. if a Man knows that he has done wrong as per his Dharma, then the Dharmic option would be to speak the truth and do praischit. However if thinks that by acknowledging his guilt, he may jeopardize his whole Dharmic institution, then silence on the matter would be his best option. If he however feels that adharma has become institutionalized in his institution and coming out clean would so to speak help clean the stables, then he may speak the truth. If he however feels that the time is not right for stable cleaning, because it would allow Adharmic forces to gain upper hand, then he may again choose to be silent on the issue.

The intent has to be selfless, for it to be considered dharmic, it needs to be in the service of the higher principle of Dharma.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

ShauryaT wrote:
RajeshA wrote: Truth is a nice feature to have when one has dominance and your dominance is secure, but really is of no consequence when one is in revolution mode.
You have the nation-state, that is India, where you are close to a state of state dominance of power, if not entirely secure but certainly not in "revolution" mode. Your so called "revolt" is against the current ideas of the state. The question you have to ask yourself is - are you going to revolt against a set of people also or find a way to carry all of them with you, as Gandhi tried and failed? MKG would himself view the partition of the land as his failure.
ShauryaT ji,

The revolution I speak of is a revolution of ideas. Nothing new to them. These ideas have been expressed before as well. However it is also about increasing their reach, and making their logic accessible at various wavelengths.

Anyway at some point the regime would have to be changed and most people who would like to participate on the inside track in the change would have to be discrete in their intent and political motivations.

And yes, in the current context, I consider M.K. Gandhi's methods of mass mobilization a good way though today one has new technologies which can help in this regard. Can't comment on when the context should change.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

If one is going to articulate a vision, agenda etc for a "Dharmic" state then one ought to acknowledge the current state of the state and its values, implementation deficiencies notwithstanding. Truth is not an unknown value of the current state. IMO: The focus ought to be on what is it that "differentiates" this envisioned Dharmic state from the current one?

Pragmatism, reality and challenges of execution can be discussed separately. It will be good to focus on the thread title and articulate an alternative vision that is as clearly differentiated as possible from current vision.

The differentiators can come in the form of functions, benefits and features. (Carl ji can take the blame for introducing ITVity verbage in the picture :)) Those further inclined can articulate changes in governance models and legislation.

Also, unclear are why should it matter to the common man. How do these changes affect the common person, families and communities.

The focus on the "external" threats and defeating current ideas of the state, do not provide answers to any of the above except to say, we need to secure ourself first and that is the only thing on the table as we are still under a state of siege. Some may not be able to think beyond this perceived need but those who can should articulate this differentiated vision.

The Yogi example is utterly flawed for the current state does have an answer for murderers and criminal threats. It points to an issue of effective governance and nothing else. What I have heard so far is nothing universal in its vision and agenda but largely sectarian and at best ethno-national. These approaches are destined to fail the same way Savarkar's Hindutva failed - even before MKG's assasination and the current set of ideologues for the Hindutva cause are at best apologetic and their political arm has NO agenda or vision to show for it - beyond good governance.

If one is going to talk about a dharmic agenda and vision, which has a chance of success then one has to accept the failed approaches and be honest on what has worked and what has not.

From a vision perspective, why not start with the vision of what Sri Aurobindo had in mind, which are lucid and clear, especially from his early writings which are temporal as opposed to his later works, which were largely spiritual. Bande Mataram although written in a different context would be a good start, for those who have not gone through it for it contains gems, that I have not seen in any other works for what the elements of a vision of a "Dharmic" state ought to be. B JI should certainly have some views on his ideas.

A relevant excerpt below.
The New Ideal

THE need of a great ideal was never more keenly felt than it is in India at the present day. Nowhere have so many weaknesses combined to stand in the way of a nation in the whole range of history. Nowhere have the rulers reduced their subjects to so complete, pervading and abject a material helplessness. When the Mogul ruled, he ruled as a soldier and a conqueror, in the pride of his strength, in the confidence of his invincible greatness, as the lord of the peoples by natural right of his imperial character and warlike strength and skill. He stooped to no meanness, hedged himself in with no army of spies, en- tered into no relations with foreign powers, but, grandiose and triumphant, sat on the throne of a continent like Indra on his heavenly seat, master of his world because there was none strong enough to dispute it with him. He trusted his subjects, gave them positions of power and responsibility, used their brain and arm to preserve his conquests and by the royalty of that trust and noble pride in his own ability to stand by his innate strength, was able to hold India for over a century until Aurangzebe for- got the Kuladharma of his house and by distrust, tyranny and meanness lost for his descendants the splendid heritage of his forefathers. The present domination is a rule of shopkeepers who are at the same time bureaucrats, a combination of the worst possible qualities for imperial Government. The shop- keeper rules by deceit, the bureaucrat by the use of red tape. The shopkeeper by melancholy meanness alienates the sub- ject population, the bureaucrat by soulless rigidity deprives the administration of life and human sympathy. The shopkeeper uses his position of authority to push his wares and fleece his subjects, the bureaucrat forgets his duty and loses his royal character in his mercantile greed. The shopkeeper becomes a pocket Machiavel, the bureaucrat a gigantic retail trader. By this confusion of dharmas, varnasankara is born in high places and the nation first and the rulers afterwards go to perdition.

This is what has happened in India under the present regime. The bureaucracy have ruled in the spirit of a mercantile power, holding its position by aid of mercenaries, afraid of its subjects, with no confidence in its destiny, with no trust even in the mer- cenaries who support it, piling up gold with one hand, with the other holding a borrowed sword over the head of a fallen peo- ple. It has sought its strength not in the mission with which God had entrusted it, nor in the greatness of England, her mastery of the ocean, her pride of unconquered prowess, her just and sym- pathetic principle of government, but in the weakness of the peo- ple. The strength of England has been held as a threat in the back- ground, not as a source of quiet and unostentatious self-confidence which enable the rulers to be generous as well as just. The liberal principles of English rule have been chanted as a sort of magic mantra to hypnotise the nation into willing subjection, not used as a living principle of government. What have been the real sources of bureaucratic strength? An Arms act, a corrupt and oppressive police, an army of spies, a mercenary military force officered by Englishmen, a people emasculated, kept ignorant, out of the world's life, poor, intimidated, abjectly under the thumb of the police constable or the provincial prefect. Such a principle of rule cannot endure. It contradicts the law of God and offends the reason of man; it is as unprofitable as it is selfish and heartless.

The nation which has passed through a century of such a misgovernment must necessarily have degenerated. The bureauc- racy has taken care to destroy every centre of strength not sub- servient to itself. A nation politically disorganised, a nation mor- ally corrupted, intellectually pauperised, physically broken and stunted is the result of a hundred years of British rule, the ac- count which England can give before God of the trust which He placed in her hands. The condition of the people is the one an- swer to all the songs of praise which the bureaucrats sing of their rule, which the people of England chorus with such a smug self- satisfaction and which even foreign peoples echo in the tune of admiration and praise. But for us the people who have suf- fered, the victims of the miserable misuse which bureaucrats have made of the noblest opportunity God ever gave to a nation, the song has no longer any charm, the mantra has lost its hypnotic force, the spell has ceased to work. While we could we deceived ourselves, but we can deceive ourselves no longer. Pain is a ter- rible disillusioner and the pangs which had come upon us were those of approaching dissolution. It was at the last moment, when further delay would have meant death, that a higher than earth- ly physician administered through a proud viceroy the potent poison of Partition and saved the life of India. The treatment of the disease has been drastic and will continue to be drastic. There are those who dream of mild remedies, whose beautiful souls will not bear to think of the fierceness of strife, hatred or agony which a revolution implies; but strong poisons are the only sal- vation in desperate diseases and we fear that without these poi- sons India will not easily or ever recover from the fatal and con- suming disease which has overtaken her. What will support her under the stress of the agony she will have to undergo? What strength will help her to shake off the weaknesses which have crowded in on her? How will she raise herself from the dust whom a thousand shackles bind down? Only the strength of a superhuman ideal, only the gigantic force of a superhuman will, only the vehemence of an effort which transcends all that man has done and approaches divinity. Where will she find that strength, that force, that vehemence? In herself. We have seen Ramamurti, the modern Bhimasen, lie motionless, resistant, with a superhu- man force of will-power acting through the muscles while two carts loaded with men are driven over his body. India must un- dergo an ordeal of passive endurance far more terrible without relaxing a single fibre of her frame. We have seen Ramamurti break over his chest a strong iron chain tightened round his whole body and break it by the sheer force of will working through the body. India must work a similar deliverance for herself by the same inner force. It is not by strength of body that Ramamurti accomplishes his feats, for he is not stronger than many athletes who could never do what he does daily, but by faith and will. India has in herself a faith of superhu- man virtue to accomplish miracles, to deliver herself out of ir- refragable bondage, to bring God down upon earth. She has a secret of will power which no other nation possesses. All she needs to rouse in her that faith, that will, is an ideal which will induce her to make the effort. That ideal is now being preached by Srijut Bepin Chandra Pal in every speech he delivers and never has it been delivered with such beauty of expression, such a passion of earnestness and pathos, such a sublimity of feeling as at Uttarpara on Sunday when he addressed a meeting of the people in the compound of the Uttarpara Library. The ideal is that of humanity in God, of God in humanity, the ancient ideal of the sanÀtana dharma but applied, as it has never been ap- plied before, to the problem of politics and the work of national revival. To realise that ideal, to impart it to the world is the mis- sion of India. She has evolved a religion which embraces all that the heart, the brain, the practical faculty of man can desire but she has not yet applied it to the problems of modern politics. This therefore is the work which she has still to do before she can help humanity; the necessity of the mission is the justifica- tion for her resurgence, the great incentive of saving herself to save mankind is the native power which will give her the force, the strength, the vehemence which can alone enable her to real- ise her destiny. No lesser ideal will help her through the stress of the terrible ordeal which she will in a few years be called to face. No hope less pure will save her from the demoralisation which follows revolutionary strife, the growth of passions, a vi- olent selfishness, sanguinary hatred, insufferable licences, the disruption of moralities, the resurgence of the tiger in man which a great revolution is apt to foster. Srijut Bepin Chandra speaks under an inspiration which he himself is unable to resist. The public wish to hear him on Swaraj, Swadeshi, Boycott, National Education – the old subjects of his unparalleled eloquence, and he himself may desire to speak on them, but the voice of a prophet is not his own to speak the thing he will, but another's to speak the thing he must. India needed the gospel of Swaraj, Swadeshi, Boycott and National Education to nerve her to her first effort, but now that she is drawing nearer to the valley of the shadow of Death she needs a still mightier inspiration, a still more en- thusiastic and all-conquering faith. The people have not yet un- derstood, but the power to understand is in them, and if any voice can awake that power, it is Bepin Chandra's.

Bande Mataram, April 7, 1908
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RajeshA »

ShauryaT ji,

the biggest difference between the current system and the Bharatiya system is one felt at the social level of increasing deracination of the Indian people.

Now one could say, "So what?"

The answer is that the social glue binding people together is going away, because the system has encouraged a dog eat dog mentality, and if this continues, there is nothing that can stop India becoming an Islamic country in the near future, in a few decades.

If India becomes Islamic there is also nothing that would stop it becoming a Talibanic state, say like Afghanistan.

This outcome is as certain as one can be if the current trajectory continues.

You ask what is the vision?

Well the primary vision is simply to avoid that outcome - the Islamization of India with a subsequent Talibanization of India!

One can call it fear-mongering! I however call this skepticism cognitive dissonance! One is free to make one's own projections based on data.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

RajeshA wrote: the biggest difference between the current system and the Bharatiya system is one felt at the social level of increasing deracination of the Indian people.[/qoute] Deracination is an outcome of moving away from the ideals of the culture. Not until one restores these ideals and living them shall deracination be overcome.
The answer is that the social glue binding people together is going away, because the system has encouraged a dog eat dog mentality, and if this continues, there is nothing that can stop India becoming an Islamic country in the near future, in a few decades.
Question what has led to these state of affairs and get to its root, instead of dealing with symptoms and effects - which are important to deal with but not sufficient by itself.
If India becomes Islamic there is also nothing that would stop it becoming a Talibanic state, say like Afghanistan.
From what I know of the pashtuns, they shall be pashtuns, Islamic or not. Read about their culture before Talibanization but not from a western lens.
This outcome is as certain as one can be if the current trajectory continues.
I am sorry you feel this type of a fear. I have no such fears within the borders of the republic - and nor do ANY significant portion of any community in India except for those vested in the politics of hate.

One can call it fear-mongering! I however call this skepticism cognitive dissonance! One is free to make one's own projections based on data.
However, what it is not is an "alternative" vision.

PS: I cannot seem to get rid of an extra quote in the message, sorry.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 19 Feb 2013 23:22, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

harbans wrote:Pranav ji, Truth as a principle cannot be given the short stick. The rule is that. Exceptions to the rule don't become the Rule and must never be made so. Always the danger lies in making the exception to the rule the rule itself. So if an entity to come into power is using untruth and deceit it will possess no credibility. If a State indulges in untruth and deception to stay in power the result again is the same. The principle value of Truth cannot be a drop now, pick up later sometime kind of adherence.
harbans ji, I think you obsessing with the "danger" of higher values being given the short stick, and in reaction to that "danger" you are trying to snatch "truth" out of the contextual jaws of circumstance, wrap it nicely and place it on a mountaintop altar, well out of the way of the "dangerous" Hell-march of Time.

I did acknowledge the need for "moral leadership", and I believe most "pragmatists" here would agree. The thing is that moral leadership works in harmony with the pragmatics of life and survival. Therefore, in India, moral leadership has been fleshed out in the Varnashrama schema of living, as I was trying to point out in that last blogpost. The semantics of values (honour, wisdom, gain, etc.) would be different in the context of each status and orientation.

I believe yours can be a valid voice in that schema, a "conscientious objector", but only within the reasonable limits of an overall understanding. Beyond that, it can be misused to subvert the survival measures of a civilization - not that you are doing that, but many others do and receive a "good boy spiritual" pat from outsiders.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

Sanku wrote:^^^
Unfortunately many times the reasons are far more prosaic, in Govindachyara-jis case, it was merely ego. "Why is my pov not being given executive prominence now that we have power"
I don't know Sanku ji. But even if he branched out at that time, and even if he remains aloof at this time, I think his continuing contribution could go a long way into creating a Hindu Left, which this country badly needs. In a way I am glad, even if he isn't in the thick of current trends. JMT.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_20317 »

Sharuya T ji before you get too invested in all this.

Some pages back there was an attempt to tear Constitution from Dharm.

And you seem to be turning this into Country vs. Dharmiks.

Need I remind you recent history as recent as a few months back to say last 20 years. Though I admit doing that would be too dramatic between grown up men.

Anyhow on a more nuanced side. Can you list out the last time you heard a poem/lyrics extoling mother nature. Like in those songs that we used to have 'Hari hari vasundhara pe nila nila yeh gagan'. Or let us say try to find out the nature of the litigation going on in our courts. Litigations apart from the 2% that get a conviction. Or lets say we find out how many kids of the 100 million + middle class have a healthy body (easier to measure). Or the intoxication on the rise. Or the narco problem in Punjab.

Belief in All is Well is a view so is the belief that All is not well. Now if all is well then there is nothing to discuss, right? But if all is not well then where do you think what went wrong?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Pranav »

harbans wrote:Pranav ji, Truth as a principle cannot be given the short stick. The rule is that. Exceptions to the rule don't become the Rule and must never be made so. Always the danger lies in making the exception to the rule the rule itself. So if an entity to come into power is using untruth and deceit it will possess no credibility. If a State indulges in untruth and deception to stay in power the result again is the same. The principle value of Truth cannot be a drop now, pick up later sometime kind of adherence.
Harbans ji, I take it you think the Yogi's behavior was correct.

In the world one often has to choose between shades of grey. The deeper Dharmic truth is that evolution towards Kaivalya / Nirvana is the ultimate goal of human existence. The human body is the most precious instrument for achieving that goal. Humans have a duty to take care of it and use it for its proper purpose. It should not be allowed to be wantonly destroyed.

The mistake the Yogi made was to lose sight of this higher Dharmic truth while getting hung-up about not lying to the murderers. If he had simply pointed in the wrong direction, his action would have been more in tune with Dharma.

MK Gandhi too showed similar shortcomings - he had a dogmatic view regarding non-violence, and did not seem to be aware of the real meaning of the term "Ahimsa".
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by ShauryaT »

ravi_g wrote:Belief in All is Well is a view so is the belief that All is not well. Now if all is well then there is nothing to discuss, right? But if all is not well then where do you think what went wrong?
All is never well but is that the scope of this thread to discuss all that is not well, then that is a huge scope and the vastness of the topic ensures it goes nowhere. I thought the scope is limited to an alternative vision for the nation? To put context to it, it is limited to a preamble level of discussions. Do we not have enough threads to curse the seculars, islamists, christians, pakistan, INC, WKK's - all traitors as per some, already?

I think from previous threads and discussion there is a desire to frame a "Dharmic" system and shed the deracinations. Is this thread not to be focused on an exposition of the vision of such a system. Is that not a wide enough scope that we have to talk about boiling the ocean by throwing all that is not well into the mix.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_20317 »

brihaspati wrote: In politics and religion, yes I am talking about the "Hindu", I have seen truth most often used as dogma : truth as self-evident, and that self-evidence is actually negotiated through perception as guided by prior belief, hidden agenda, or subconscious biological desires. In this both the Marxists and the guru-maharajs compete with each other in asinine totalitarianism.
A misapplication will yield wrong results. No doubts about that.

But how do you suggest we can reduce the apprehension about totalitarianism.

The basic things that you had suggested like who eats with whom etc. I hope they work in the real life which is not going to be like this forum.

The distortionists need to be taken care of. Only thing that I believe can work is an extensive availability of options in terms of belief systems.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_20317 »

ShauryaT ji, the point about the scope of the thread is well taken. And quite a few people by now have given it all a try to work within it.

Only wanted convey that 'All is not well' is an actual POV not just a CT promoted by fanatics.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

ravi_g wrote:But how do you suggest we can reduce the apprehension about totalitarianism.
...
The distortionists need to be taken care of. Only thing that I believe can work is an extensive availability of options in terms of belief systems.
Absolutely.
Indic politics needs to encompass both sides of the aisle - Right and Left - in a harmonious (but competitive) contrapuntal relationship. There can be two or more parties that emerge. But in the interval where the congress sultanate is pushed out, the base should not be split, and so it may appear a little "totalitarian". Basically, the goalposts of mainstream Indian politics need to shift rightward as a net effect.

As for religion, that diversity is already there IMHO.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

^ Which is better?

A Leftist style Governance model with Rightist Constitution
or
A Rightist style Governance model with Leftist Constitution
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

RamaY wrote:^ Which is better?

A Leftist style Governance model with Rightist Constitution
or
A Rightist style Governance model with Leftist Constitution
IMHO leftist constitution with rightist style governance.

Strong hierarchical governance is what India needs, urgently especially in this phase. Chinese are saying they are more stable in the next few decades of this century because of continuing global uncertainty on various fronts, and their strong directorial political economy is a better bet for business, versus India's banana republic democracy. A rightist style leadership of a leftist democracy will be a fitting reply to that, as protests by ethnic minorities and have-nots in totalitarian China comes to the surface.

Constitution should ideally be just left of center, like the heart in the human body. :wink:
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_20317 »

Carl wrote:
ravi_g wrote:But how do you suggest we can reduce the apprehension about totalitarianism.
...
The distortionists need to be taken care of. Only thing that I believe can work is an extensive availability of options in terms of belief systems.
Absolutely.
Indic politics needs to encompass both sides of the aisle - Right and Left - in a harmonious (but competitive) contrapuntal relationship. There can be two or more parties that emerge. But in the interval where the congress sultanate is pushed out, the base should not be split, and so it may appear a little "totalitarian". Basically, the goalposts of mainstream Indian politics need to shift rightward as a net effect.

As for religion, that diversity is already there IMHO.

The political space is reasonably well diversified. The present Congress system is based on our collective inertia so it ain't gonna go anywhere. I am afraid Kritayug will come because every man would have discovered the Kalki Maharaj within and not because of the outsourcing of this fight.

Carl ji, I tend to rely less on characterizations Left/Right/Left of Centre etc. For me the self-interest serves as a better indicator of the expectations.

The religion angle came in because Bji had pointed out how all sides of divide misuse it. The Hindu Mahant system is not united either. And he is right. But one gets to see these weak links only when one goes searching for them. Hence the above average reliance that I place on individual sadhana of the political self interest.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

^^ ravi_g ji, I agree that that aspiration and self-interest has to come from within, by thought or by contagion. But even if there is a critical mass of such aspirants, a cynosure will be needed. Congress sultanate and its symbiotes thrive on dispersal of collective aspiration, or general confusion or distraction.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by RamaY »

Carlji,

:) expected.... baggage of secularism and democracy are too tempting to get rid of.


I am going to propose a twisted world view... so please bear with me

[IED Alert]
When NM's govt proposed mandatory suffrage in Gujarat many democracy lovers cried foul as it would violate the freedom of not voting :roll: and called it a draconian measure.

This makes our current democracy is nothing but election of selected [mainly selection by main political parties, rarely independent candidates] individuals to leadership roles. The citizens do not have an option to recommend say "YamaR" to be an MP/MLA even if majority of them like him to represent them.

So within a given constituency, the election is more or less between the selected candidates. If we were to merely browse the election threads we will get the unlimited gyan that in India, the real election is about election of these individual candidates by the local population for local requirements based on local dynamics. The party principles or national leadership (use NM example if you want to understand this concept the best) are of no significant value, the gurus tells us.

This is the exact reason why the 60% christian dominated Kanyakumari constituency in South TN can never vote for a BJP candidate when NM is the PM candidate and BJP has a Hindu temple in Ayodhya as part of its manifesto.

This means the election process within a single constituency is more of a presidential mode - where the candidates need to convince/influence/coerce the locals in order to win.

If you combine all this, Indian democracy is nothing but the 'volunteer' citizens elect local representatives based on local dynamics who in turn elect their national leadership. Here the elected representatives cannot elect their leadership across party lines and are forced to elect leadership from their own party.

Now let us study the communist model democracy in China.

The Communist party members elect local representatives, who elect their regional representatives and who in turn elect the national leadership.

Imagine a scenario where all Chinese citizens are declared members of Communist Party. Then the whole process of election more or less resembles Indian democratic mode. The citizens have a freedom to become a communist party member and join the electoral process.

The interesting thing in Chinese democracy is that the elected representatives can elect any possible leader because all they have is a single party.

Which is more democratic - Indian Model or Chinese Model?
[IED off]

Now read that Subrahmanyam Swami article that got Harvard univ show its Secular behavior.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

RamaY ji, not a good IEDah. :lol:
RamaY wrote:Imagine a scenario where all Chinese citizens are declared members of Communist Party. Then the whole process of election more or less resembles Indian democratic mode. The citizens have a freedom to become a communist party member and join the electoral process.

The interesting thing in Chinese democracy is that the elected representatives can elect any possible leader because all they have is a single party.

Which is more democratic - Indian Model or Chinese Model?
Let's take the view of Industrial/Organizational piskology.
Chinese model does not allow freedom of overt opposition, partisanship and non-conformity via competing political parties. Whatever direction the party's top leadership decides, the entire cadre can vote or be tactically brilliant only within those parameters. Otherwise the non-conformists will be purged or culled. This is especially interesting if you consider that the basic communist dynamic of infiltration and takeover of societies is based on using non-conformists or discontents within those societies. Yet, these active tools of Communist (or Islamist) infiltration typically become the first victims of purges after they come to power, because they're still non-conformist challengers by nature. Thus, a truly mature civilizational system should have the chankian wisdom to be able to "manage" a non-conformist, even subversive, or outright antithetical opposition within its parameters...and possibly even use that as a creative medium for continuous civilizational enhancement. I had mentioned this point in a blogpost I made some days back:

Human command potentials and roles in Civilization
In a "Vedic" sense of scales of "knowingness", an integral planetary civilization spectrum would also include a 'cleft' between its core and a deracinated periphery, or a subversive current, or even an outright antithetical ideology. That tension is part of what keeps it evolving through technological and ideological iterations.

Because genetically, culturally and in other ways India is a microcosm of humanity and a confluence ('sangam') of sorts, this also applies to pan-Indian civilization. Perhaps Indian civilization would actually encompass all of these -- but in a particular balance in its optimal condition.
It is interesting that India has this 'cleft' today, as noted by Sam Huntington, but in some way has always had it. It is just that the balance of power is with the Dasyu element right now and needs to be won back.

Coming back to your proposition: In China, a serious ideological or socio-economic fracture can threaten that nation-state more than it would India, because we have a system that "knows" how to yield as well as push. But the Communist "democracy" is based fundamentally on a punishment-drive model. Firstly, that means they have an internal dynamic that is essentially sociopathic, and eventually people of a certain type will climb the internal party ladder and get to the top. In India this sociopathic corruption is due to the culture of bribery and sycophancy that can be traced to mansabdari systems going back to sultanate and Mughal times. But it is at least not institutionalized in a totalitarian framework unlike China (which also has its guanxi culture).

Secondly, another trait of systems that run on a dominance (punishment-drive) model is that they constantly need an external threat and enemy, which is what keeps them together. Absent that clear and present danger, they will squabble and enter a dwindling spiral within. This has implications for China's inherent ability to "rise peacefully" while expanding its ability to deal with diversity and enhance other's self-esteem and relevance, instead of expecting its neighbours and others to submit to its dominance model. Of course, dominance is part of politics, but there is a clear difference in the way even the US uses a mixture of hard and soft power versus China. IMHO India has even better and more benign potential than the US in future.

Thus, from the PoV of internal and external dynamics and the way it actually plays out, the Chinese model is more problematic in the longer term than India's model. But we do have a problem and need a "tightening" up, and so I stated my preference for a rightist governance style within a leftist constitution.
RamaY wrote:When NM's govt proposed mandatory suffrage in Gujarat many democracy lovers cried foul as it would violate the freedom of not voting :roll: and called it a draconian measure.

This makes our current democracy is nothing but election of selected [mainly selection by main political parties, rarely independent candidates] individuals to leadership roles. The citizens do not have an option to recommend say "YamaR" to be an MP/MLA even if majority of them like him to represent them.
Yes, I had indicated that we have a culture that has formed over centuries of mansabdaari, bribery, goondaism, etc., but at least the constitution does not impose them anymore, though the current dispensation still thrives on it. This can be set right by an alternative movement that snatches the moral leadership. I think the discussion and movements on "anti-corruption" have only just begun. :wink:
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

I intend to be harsh here. There is no Dharma without Truth. Truth is sacrosanct.

Pranav Ji, no i did not mean the Yogi is right or wrong. I said exceptions to the rule do not become the rule. The Hindutvaadi focus is if the exception is made then it becomes the rule. That is Adharma. The thinking that propagates it must be destroyed. BS of the highest order, irrespective it comes from anyone here. Dharma and Truth are inseparable.

Rajesh ji wrote:
Truth is higher than Dharma! :mrgreen:
Rajesh ji, for someone putting Dharma as subset of Hinduism till a day or so ago, this is a bit rich. Don;t you feel that in retrospect?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_22872 »

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

Sudarshan ji, there was no untruth in Yudhistra's Ashwathama statement. He was told Drona has to drop weapons to be eliminated. The way offered to Yudhistra was saying Ashwathama is dead (the elephant Ashwathama was). He refused to say the untruth. So he said IIRC..'Ashwathama hatho narova kunjarowa'. The truth. Only when the Hatho word was used conch shells blew and in the din that was not heard by Drona. The exception to the rule was clear in it's marginality. To exrapolate that to imply that Untruth can be used as modus operandi is Adharma.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

But, truth can be relative or absolute, so is dharma,
Truth is only revealed in accordance with one's desire to know it. Does not mean Truth is a relative of XYZ. One wants fixation at Hindutva at the expense of Truth, one will end will end resembling the Islamist that he hates. Both will be paired together. Rightly.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

harbans ji,

for a moment, imagine that nobody here understands what Truth or Compassion, two "values" you have quoted often, are. They could be the name of two birds on some tree branch or a new kind of bacteria, let's say we don't know. Please try to explain to us,

what they are?
how these are derived from Dharma?
how they work at the Rashtra level?
why are they relevant to us?

Firstly Truth is not a 'Bird' or bacteria. Neither is God just a Bird or 'bacteria'. So cut the BS and that line of questioning!

Dharma and Truth at the highest level are one and the same.

Remember i appreciated you for your qualities of collation, presentation. I did it sincerely. I did not do so for content as yet. The fact that you ridicule Truth so much calling it a Bird and insinuating it lesser than Dharma shows your immaturity. Yes you will put out a great long post, with nice headlines, crystallize a fantastic wish list. And indeed no one does it better here on this board. And i do sincerely mean that. Your intrinsic propensity to forward your aims and agenda through devious means over the years will not buy you much credibility ultimately. IF you seek to know and evolve, then learn NOT to call Truth a bird or bacteria. Sounds fair?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by member_22872 »

Harbans ji,
Yes relative truth is relative to XYZ, depends on many factors hence it is relative. Say X is on planet Earth, he sees that Sun always rises in the east. While Y who is on Venus will see it always rise on the west. When you say revealed truth, that is argumentative, even though, I think you are referring to absolute truth, but A Buddhist will ask, revealed by whom. But I digress.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

harbans wrote:Sudarshan ji, there was no untruth in Yudhistra's Ashwathama statement. He was told Drona has to drop weapons to be eliminated. The way offered to Yudhistra was saying Ashwathama is dead (the elephant Ashwathama was). He refused to say the untruth. So he said IIRC..'Ashwathama hatho narova kunjarowa'. The truth. Only when the Hatho word was used conch shells blew and in the din that was not heard by Drona. The exception to the rule was clear in it's marginality. To exrapolate that to imply that Untruth can be used as modus operandi is Adharma.
Not true. Firstly, he deliberately uttered the reference to the elephant softly with every intention that the other misses hearing it. But for his own confused conscience he uttered it nevertheless. Moreover, it is stated that Dharmaraja's hesitation to follow the explicit guidance of Krishna resulted in him having to pass through Hell on his way to Heaven. This hesitation was born of an inability to distinguish between righteous action in Present Time context, and a frozen morality that sought to avoid the "dangers" of immorality... and it lead to a secondary emotion like false guilt, which then attracts to oneself exactly what is feared - a Hell-bound trajectory. (If Yudhisthira had disregarded Krishna's advice altogether, then the war may have had a different outcome, and he would have again felt guilt for not having done so.) Therefore it is stated - धर्मं तु साक्षाद् भदवद् प्रणीतम् । - "Dharma is that which is given as guidance by the Lord directly in present time (saakshaat)." Thus, dharma is saakshaat, not frozen in time.

Today's Sudharma has this nice one from Vishnugupta Chanakya (who advises citizens to meditate on a Name of Vishnu with every morsel of their meal) about values, actions and context --

असन्तुष्टा द्विजा नष्टाः सन्तुष्टाश्च महीभूतः ।
सलज्जला गणिका नष्टा निर्लज्जाश्च कुलाङ्गना ॥

"A discontented Brahmin, a contented king,
A coy courtesan, and shameless women from reputed families,
They all destroy themselves."

QED :mrgreen:
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

But I digress.
Yes Venu G you digress. When you talk about a XYZ vision based State following a DFG wish list. One cannot say everything is hunky dory by that wish list. How do i or the rest know the State is actually delivering? IF the State murders your neighbours, family members or offers your wife, daughters or sisters as collateral to maintain the culture, sampradaya..is that culture worth maintaining or destroying? So WTF is MORE important the ritual culture of the values/ principles that will maintain keep your daughters and sisters from being sold? You want to play around with Truth and values and keep them under wraps in your Bharatiya vision? That is to be destroyed and eliminated as harshly as one seeks to destroy the Islamists.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

Carl ji, i already have mentioned 3 times here that the exception to the rule is NOT the rule. I have also heard the version i stated from many village folks in the region. The eagerness to embrace the exception to the rule to suit agenda and fit one's temporal POV shows. In that your quest will only resemble the Islaimsts. So no QED.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Rudradev »

Carl wrote:harbans wrote:
Sudarshan ji, there was no untruth in Yudhistra's Ashwathama statement. He was told Drona has to drop weapons to be eliminated. The way offered to Yudhistra was saying Ashwathama is dead (the elephant Ashwathama was). He refused to say the untruth. So he said IIRC..'Ashwathama hatho narova kunjarowa'. The truth. Only when the Hatho word was used conch shells blew and in the din that was not heard by Drona. The exception to the rule was clear in it's marginality. To exrapolate that to imply that Untruth can be used as modus operandi is Adharma.
Not true. Firstly, he deliberately uttered the reference to the elephant softly with every intention that the other misses hearing it. But for his own confused conscience he uttered it nevertheless. Moreover, it is stated that Dharmaraja's hesitation to follow the explicit guidance of Krishna resulted in him having to pass through Hell on his way to Heaven.
To add to this: it was not that "conch shells blew" by some coincidence at the time, causing a din so that the "Truth" was not heard by Drona. It was Krishna himself who blew the conch shell at that particular moment when Dharmaraj lowered his voice to speak the literal "Truth". Clearly the intention of Krishna was to suppress Drona's hearing of the "Truth" as it was being spoken by Dharmaraj.

So I would like to ask Harbans ji, if "Truth" is sacrosanct and inseparable from Dharma... was this action by Krishna (blowing the conch) Adharmic? Or not?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

harbans wrote:Carl ji, i already have mentioned 3 times here that the exception to the rule is NOT the rule.
There is a difference between an "exception" and an "eccentricity". This Ashwatthama episode is an eccentricity, not an exception - hence the focus it attracts from commentators. As often seen in any science, certain eccentric cases truly reveal what exactly the rule is, vide one planet's eccentric orbit making known to observers on Earth a great deal about the nature of elliptical orbits of all planets in the solar system including their own.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Rudradev »

Exceptions are what make the rule. No worldview can claim to be based on Sanatan Dharma without adequately providing for all exceptions, and by conveniently ignoring them as one pleases.

Let us take the example of Truth. When there are no "exceptions" it is very easy to follow the rule "always speak the Truth".

For example: if somebody asks me, "what is your name?"

If I feel comfortable answering, I can tell them my real name. That is the Truth. If I don't feel comfortable answering, I can say "I would rather not answer." That is also the Truth.

For a situation so simple there is no need for guidance, or a code of conduct, or even for any form of Dharma.

However, the "exceptions" (illustrated by Pranav ji's Yogi example, and Sudarshan ji's example of Yudhishtir) are exactly those occasions when some form of Dharma is needed as a guide. And they are not marginal. In real life, every human being encounters such situations frequently and regularly when suppressing the literal Truth, or speaking something other than the Truth, has perceptible and practical benefits to offer. If Harbans-ji's version of "Dharma" cannot guide people facing such situations as to what exactly to do in those situations... then it is useless as a code of personal conduct, and even more useless as a foundation for Bharatiya statehood. Telling people "don't worry, that is an exception" will not cut it. Sorry.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

So I would like to ask Harbans ji, if "Truth" is sacrosanct and inseparable from Dharma... was this action by Krishna (blowing the conch) Adharmic? Or not?
No, your question is. Krishna in BG if you've read it is God himself. He favors those who are close to him. The laws of nature are his creation according to the MB/ BG. Everything is his. So what time he blows his conch to help his friend is his prerogative.

Yet the 4th time i am mentioning that the exception to the rule is NOT equal to the rule. That does not give one a license to use deceit and untruth as modus operandi. In the example whatever interpretation which is debatable, the fact emerges it is an exception to the norm. Yet HIndutvaadi's want to make that norm...? Adharma or idiocy? Certainly not Dharma.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by sudarshan »

harbans wrote:Carl ji, i already have mentioned 3 times here that the exception to the rule is NOT the rule. I have also heard the version i stated from many village folks in the region. The eagerness to embrace the exception to the rule to suit agenda and fit one's temporal POV shows. In that your quest will only resemble the Islaimsts. So no QED.
The "version you stated," Harbans ji? Are you sure that this "version" is the absolute, unadulterated truth? Or is it just the village folks' way of reconciling a sticky point in the story for themselves? Don't you want to absolutely verify the truth of this version before you present it here? If you don't, isn't that Adharma? Is this what the original Mahabharata text states, for instance?

You said that the actions of this yogi (which were presented as an instance) were an exception. Do you see how many exceptions you have to account for, in that case? Suppose somebody got all your private details - place of work, marital status, wife's name, salary, etc. etc. and put it up for view on this forum, and then called upon you to confirm or deny the veracity of the details. Would you - a) keep quiet (i.e. call an exception), b) deny the truth of the details (Adharma), c) or honestly confirm that all the details were true (Dharma/truth)? Seriously now? What if the details were of your parents or wife? What then?

These "exceptions," unfortunately, keep showing up so often in life, that one wonders if they aren't the rule in the first place....
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Agnimitra »

The full guideline for speaking truths according to Upanishadic Dharma is - सत्यं वद प्रियं वद हितं वद । -
(a) Speak the truth,
(b) Speak it intimately (i.e., at the precise emotional level that can best be handled by the other),
(c) Speak it for the benefit of all.

People at different psychological levels can actually handle truth at very different levels. Some are even at a level that cheats and wants to be cheated (self-delusion). Therefore, one may benefit them (or at least the environment as a whole) by cheating them.
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by harbans »

This Ashwatthama episode is an eccentricity, not an exception - hence the focus it attracts from commentators.
So Krishna, God is eccentric or exception? What did you mean by the above? Perceived deceit is eccentricity or exception?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Post by Prem »

Truth was absolute in Satyuga, little less in Treta and got flexible in Dwapar as more and more Dusht were roaming the Bhoomi. In Kalyug, Truth require Kalyugi methods to achieve the complementary Dharmic objectives.For Justice and humanity sake Dushts must be Pushed and Pulled by Tush from their Khudd in this era to sustain the flickering light of Dharma. Truth is Tapasya and hard to sustain in these fallen Dins. There are lower truths and there is Highest Truth.Pooran Bhagat, holding silence, siting in meditation adhered to the truth in pointing out the direction of Cow which have escaped the Butcher. Butcher captured the cow and slaughtered it for meat and For this Paap, Pooean was punished with amputations of both leg and arms in next life .
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