Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Feb 2013 00:20

^ I think that is a simplistic view, often peddled by the secular fundamentalists.

Gujarat society has all the characteristics of Indian society. It has religious minorities, competing caste structures, mercantile interests, tribal regions and you name it...

If NM could achieve near 2/3 majority three times in a row and on top of it was able to bring all these competing interests together, why cannot he do the same on national scale?

As long as we use secular fundamentalist logic and blindly follow the paid media farticles to understand India, we will continue to see NM as a polarizing leader onlee.

But once we remove those colored glasses, we will see doodh kaa doodh, paani ka paani...

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 20 Feb 2013 00:25

If INC faces prolonged defeat it is most likely going to turn into a "soft-Hindutva" socialist (left-of-center) party like the Social democrat/labor parties of Europe/USA.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Feb 2013 00:27

RamaY wrote: 1. Corruption Free Governance
2. No nonsensical schemes in the name of doling out poor. Just provide food, education, health security and employment opportunities.
3. No more socialist and secular nonsense
4. Absolute rule of law. The law must be same for all citizenry, irrespective of religion/caste/creed. That would mean UCC and no 370A and such nonsense.
5. Remove all secular and lefitist historical and academic distortions from education system

Do you think the C-system can ever do this?

BTW a question - Christians in Muslim countries are ok with that and Muslims in Christian countries are ok. Even Hindus in Muslim/Christian countries are ok. Then why cant Christians and Muslims live happily in a Hindu nation-state?

Those are a good set of principles. I suspect NM actually rules in quite a secular manner except for his personal issues with the muslim faith/followers.

The C-folks are survivors and love power. They will do anything to get to power. If that means corruption free rule and internal reform I’m sure they will be amenable to trying it. Right now it is not clear if that is a clear winning formula. There are so many other demands and pulls on politics.

Secular and leftist does not mean the same thing and neither does secular and socialist. Historically secular has meant many many different things depending on the situation and context.

I think the key point of secular is that the state shall not establish a national religion. All else appears to be negotiable. This is the single rule that causes fatal conditions for the state. Witness the mayhem in the Islamic republic next door. Or even the slaughter in Buddha Lanka next door, which situation has not been resolved yet. I wouldn’t call the conditions of Hindu/Christian there as acceptable. I don’t think a ‘Hindu’ state will be acceptable in any operational from for most of India. Leave alone minorities, the question of which version of Hindu thought will tear the nation apart, as it indeed did in the past. Something similar is tearing the evangelical ‘christian nation’ movement in USA to shreds. The slaughter in Islamic lands does not need to be mentioned...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2013 00:43

Theo, One should recollect in all those examples the auto/theocratic nature of the relgions followed in those states. Sanathan Dharma has myriad lines of thought.

In India it was Buddhism as state religion imposed by Ashoka that had similar hamartia.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Feb 2013 00:45

^ You are talking like me when I used to debate with my father about marriage...

Why do you always have to take the bad examples? After all many western nations progress and achieve high HDI while being overt Christian nations. I am sure a Pseudo-Secular can come up with an advanced, progressive and high HDI Islamic nation too.

Then why can't a Hindu Bharat be a progressive, advanced and high HDI nation?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Feb 2013 00:53

Ramana,

That is not fully correct.
There have been many Hindu states as well, though probably not as well known or in recent memory.
What little we know about such states does give me at least enough concern to pause…

The problem historically has usually been not the underlying thought….
The problem is translating ideology into reality using imperfect human beings.
This has always been the problem with ideologies.
I recommend a long browse through the “Ascent of Man” by Bronowski.

Take for instance the idea of changing a state established religion, for what ever reason.
The situation has proved fatal to every state that attempted it including within India.
We should not back ourselves into such corners we can not change out minds from.

Like I said, the state shall establish no religion.
All else is negotiable.
---------------------------------

RamaY,

Point to me a good example.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Feb 2013 01:04

Arre bhai yeh Hindu Rashtra aur Secularism kahan se aa gaya.

That too in NM thread.

Were you guys sleeping. NM is not going for Hindu Rashtra. He has a big tiff with Togadia. So all hail Togadia. The man with the light of the holy day, wednesday.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 20 Feb 2013 01:13

SwamyG wrote:Methinks, NaMo might become the greatest varaprasadam for INC. Because of his polarizing nature - i.e. the ability for INC to polarize his candidature - anti-Modi people who would normally fume on the scams of INC would now have "no resort" but to vote for INC.

INC is bumbling from one scam to another. The number of corruption scandals under its watch and other in competencies is astonishing. Fortunately for INC, only some people vote on issues. Unfortunately for Modi, he has to motivate people unlike other leaders. He plays the Hindtuva card, INC will admonish him; if he plays the Development card, INC will bring minorities/2002.

Kongis have had a gala time because of the bumbling opposition. Opposition has been unable or unwilling to corner the kongis even when MMS and dynasty are directly linked in scams and exposed thoroughly. No wonder, kongis have become very brazen. It is only the entrance of NaMo onto the national picture that has created panic in kongi camp. The hanging of Kasab and Afzal suddenly out of the blue can directly attributed to kongis trying not to give talking points to NaMo. It was NaMo's letter which stalled the Siachin deal.

NaMo is the only opposition right now, atleast, the only credible opposition. The so-called polarization is over-exaggerated. Anyway, NaMo has not played the 'Hindutva card'. It is the kongis who are playing 'saffron terror' card. Even if there is a religious polarization, India is still a Hindu majority country, so NaMo's winning chances are still solid. Vajpayee had come to power riding the wave of Ram-Janma-Bhoomi... And back then, Indian society was much more 'secular'.

Today, many people are starting to understand what 'secularism' means in indian politics; thanks to alternate media on internet, Subramanya Swamy, and kongis(and motley crew who swear by 'secularism') brazenly trying to create a phantom of 'hindu terror' to do equal equal with islamic terror even while shielding the jihadis from the punishment.

Theo_Fidel wrote:
RamaY wrote: 1. Corruption Free Governance
2. No nonsensical schemes in the name of doling out poor. Just provide food, education, health security and employment opportunities.
3. No more socialist and secular nonsense
4. Absolute rule of law. The law must be same for all citizenry, irrespective of religion/caste/creed. That would mean UCC and no 370A and such nonsense.
5. Remove all secular and lefitist historical and academic distortions from education system

Do you think the C-system can ever do this?

BTW a question - Christians in Muslim countries are ok with that and Muslims in Christian countries are ok. Even Hindus in Muslim/Christian countries are ok. Then why cant Christians and Muslims live happily in a Hindu nation-state?
Those are a good set of principles. I suspect NM actually rules in quite a secular manner except for his personal issues with the muslim faith/followers.

Flame biat? What personal issues?

Theo_Fidel wrote:The C-folks are survivors and love power. They will do anything to get to power. If that means corruption free rule and internal reform I’m sure they will be amenable to trying it. Right now it is not clear if that is a clear winning formula. There are so many other demands and pulls on politics.

They are addicted to power because of what power begets. Power for money and money for power. Power and money for personal enjoyment. This is their attitude. A system with such an attitude cannot handle power without corruption or nepotism. The entire C-system is based on corruption and nepotism. If one takes away the corruption or nepotism, the C-system won't survive. Most of the folks in the c-system don't deserve to have the power. They are able to acquire power through corruption, nepotism and sycophancy. Such people will never allow a free, fair and meritocratic system because that would be a death-knell to their hold on power. BTW, it is not individuals, but families that make up the C-system.

Theo_Fidel wrote:Secular and leftist does not mean the same thing and neither does secular and socialist. Historically secular has meant many many different things depending on the situation and context.

In India, 'secular' has meant anti-Hindu. And it has been justified by arguing that Hindus are majority(metaphorical elder brother) and therefore minorities(metaphorical younger brother) must be showered with goodies by the state(metaphorical parent) even if the majority has to be denied their legitimate needs and minority have to be condoned their illegitimate desires. The same theory gets repeated in India-pak relations. Hindu is replaced by India, minority is replaced by pak and state is replaced by west.

Theo_Fidel wrote:I think the key point of secular is that the state shall not establish a national religion. All else appears to be negotiable. This is the single rule that causes fatal conditions for the state. Witness the mayhem in the Islamic republic next door. Or even the slaughter in Buddha Lanka next door, which situation has not been resolved yet.

In all of the above examples, the creeds are monochromatic. That means all of the above creeds, cannot accept multiple paths/customs. They seek to enforce a single view. It is this quality that is the basis for 'mayhem'. The problem is the creed itself, not the people or the idea of theological state. There is nothing wrong with the idea of a state being based on a particular ideology(religious or otherwise). The resulting state will reflect the ideology. There may be some exceptions, but generally, a state/group/person/society reflects the ideology being followed by them/it.

Luckily, Hinduism/SD is not monochromatic. It inherently accepts and propounds multiple paths(multiple paths does not mean that everything is accepted, it is just that the choices are more). Given this background, there is very less chance of 'mayhem' in a Hindu/SD nation. Even in a Hindu/SD setup, 'mayhem' can occur when a monochromatic Hindu sect tries to eliminate alternate Hindu views through force. There is also a past precedent to propagate one's views: free public debates. This mechanism also prevents violence.

Theo_Fidel wrote: I wouldn’t call the conditions of Hindu/Christian there as acceptable. I don’t think a ‘Hindu’ state will be acceptable in any operational from for most of India. Leave alone minorities, the question of which version of Hindu thought will tear the nation apart, as it indeed did in the past. Something similar is tearing the evangelical ‘christian nation’ movement in USA to shreds. The slaughter in Islamic lands does not need to be mentioned...

Hindu thought will tear the nation apart?!! wow!

It is all the anti-Hindu thoughts that are trying to tear the nation apart. Anti-Hindu thoughts succeeded in the past to partition the country(pak and bd). And there are others trying to 'tear the nation apart' like 'Nagaland for christ'...

When and how in the past did a 'hindu thought tear the nation apart'?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Feb 2013 01:22

Ravi_G garu... appllogies andi!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Feb 2013 01:46

Why is a discussion about declaring Hinduism to be the state religion being pursued on this thread? NaMo himself hasn't expressed ay such views. The only thing he has talked about is development and getting our economy back on track, which is how it should be.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2013 02:03

NewInsight.net has this latest article:

Marathon Man

If what he says about the babus and pandus ditching and shivering then change is in the air.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Feb 2013 02:23

Please do not disrupt this thread with reminents of Aryan civilization theory and theories proposed by enimies of the state.

newsinsight article is interesting.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Feb 2013 02:26

nachiket wrote:Why is a discussion about declaring Hinduism to be the state religion being pursued on this thread? NaMo himself hasn't expressed ay such views. The only thing he has talked about is development and getting our economy back on track, which is how it should be.

+108. Successful thread derailment even if for a brief while.

FWIW, NM is Sanatani where it counts the most - in his deeds. No need for soaring rhetoric when quiet action can do the job. No?

IMO, NM's main challenge in the next polls is to bag some 180 odd for BJP and some 220 odd for NDA. That sets the base to be and be seen as a credible, viable, national leader. The other challenge is restricting the INC to below 140 as far as feasible. Some interim third front type buffoonery for a year or so can be a tolerated for a while. NM forming the govt is too long a shot (even without EVM magic entering the picture) that I wouldn't place ardent hopes on it anyway (not that I wouldn't luuvv to be wrong on this one though).

Like Muppalla garu mentions, I am worried about judicial attacks on NM now that the gloves are truly off and the UPA is brazenly holding out sinecures and other goodies to ure judges near-retirement (like it has done EC commissioners in the past - e.g. MS Gill and the egregious Navin Chawla).

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 20 Feb 2013 02:44

ramana wrote:NewInsight.net has this latest article:

Marathon Man

If what he says about the babus and pandus ditching and shivering then change is in the air.

There are clearly forces at play that no one understands that are propelling Narendra Modi to Delhi. It would be futile to stop him. Like in 1996, many Congress stalwarts are prepared to jump ship. They have opened negotiations with the Bharatiya Janata Party. They want Modi to come and clean up the system. This is bad news for the Congress. Then consider the bureaucracy. After the Indian Administrative Service, the Indian Police Service ranks second in corruption and venality, and because it has so much at stake, it keeps robustly abreast of the current political wind direction. Senior IPS officers are openly talking about an imminent Narendra Modi government at the Centre, and they are a scared lot. Six months ago, this writer was alone to bet that the gates of Delhi would open wide to welcome Modi.

Is this the reason why CON MAFIA was spying on Jaitley to see who is jumping the ship?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Feb 2013 02:47

It is thread disruption only because the answer to this question is not ready. But I don't think anyone is fooled what the end game is...

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Feb 2013 02:54

Theo_Fidel wrote:It is thread disruption only because the answer to this question is not ready. But I don't think anyone is fooled what the end game is...

Whose end game? NM, as I said, has made absolutely no statements on the matter. He is fighting this election on the development plank, pure and simple. Just like he did in Gujarat. He isn't wasting his time trying to change the fundamental nature of the Indian constitution (any attempt would be struck down by the Supreme court anyway, so this is a moot point). You are attributing ulterior motives to him based on your own prejudices and the idle imaginations of certain posters here.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 20 Feb 2013 03:19

Yes I agree. That's why said NM has governed in a relatively secular manner.

But that is not the entire message coming out right now, certainly not from the BJP....

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Feb 2013 03:24

Rama garu:
I might be a secular fundamentalist, because I do value secularism highly

We are making the mistake of thinking that what works in Gujarat (or say in a region) will work in the rest of the country - without necessary adaptions.

You know me enough by now to judge my comments, do you think I would go based on media reports? I do not even know if this has been discussed by desi media.

Yes, ultimately everything boils down to the D-day, when the rubber meets the road we will know how people react.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Feb 2013 03:26

^^nachiket, yawn and move on. This isn't the first time the dhaga has gotten derailed, and no thanks to posters posing as oh-so-reasonable only. Still, no shortage of folks eager to bite the bait, sadly.

Anyway, NM stands for pluralism, clearly. And as such pluralism is agreeable with, even celebrated in, Sanatan dharma. That should put faux theological concerns to rest, so much for dark insinuations of 'nobody is fooled' etc.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Feb 2013 03:31

SwamyG wrote:Rama garu:
I might be a secular fundamentalist, because I do value secularism highly We are making the mistake of thinking that what works in Gujarat (or say in a region) will work in the rest of the country - without necessary adaptions.

You know me enough by now to judge my comments, do you think I would go based on media reports? I do not even know if this has been discussed by desi media.

Yes, ultimately everything boils down to the D-day, when the rubber meets the road we will know how people react.

SwamyG garu.

I presented the reasons why Gujarat is similar to any other state in India. We have seen the Keshubhai approach at work too something similar to MNS in Maha and PRP in AP.

I seriously doubt if there is that much difference between AP/TN/Maha/Ktaka you name it and Gujarat. Any state where overall majority is Hindus is same as Gujarat. The only exceptions are JK and NE states, and Kerala.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Feb 2013 04:38

That video link of Modi speech with CC was helpful. This was the first time I was listening to him. He very much sounded like a CEO of Gujarat. Nice.

He seems to be very straight forward, business oriented, no second thought about decisions from his ideas and projections. However, there was a missing attribute in his speech.. something that non-business folks might not understand the importance of commerce and industries.. that includes the other part of 35% person folks of India who is aged, or below poverty, or does not understand commerce, but more like a naturalist who would be more focused on protecting the environment rather making the best of say NE natural env resource. It might be irrelevant for the target audience, but for a PM position, one would have to look at his views from aspects other than commerce. jmt

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Feb 2013 06:10

RamaY wrote: SwamyG garu.

I presented the reasons why Gujarat is similar to any other state in India. We have seen the Keshubhai approach at work too something similar to MNS in Maha and PRP in AP.

I seriously doubt if there is that much difference between AP/TN/Maha/Ktaka you name it and Gujarat. Any state where overall majority is Hindus is same as Gujarat. The only exceptions are JK and NE states, and Kerala.

I think this where Modi or his handlers can go wrong. Cuddalore or Cuddapha are far away from Gujarat. People could have heard about Modi. But it is their local leaders that matter to them. Modi or his social media can reach only so many people, how is Modi going to get his message across to even smaller towns than the ones I mention. Casteism and feudalism are still rampant, a guy in kothaguda or kudankoolam is going to vote as per his needs. Modi has to make this guy believe in him, so that he can step out of his political boundaries. Modi must make that guy believe that Modi will provide opportunities for the guy to earn roti, kapada air makhan; instead of the promise of giving him roti,kapada aur makhan.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Feb 2013 06:23

I think this where Modi or his handlers can go wrong. Cuddalore or Cuddapha are far away from Gujarat. People could have heard about Modi. But it is their local leaders that matte for them. Modi or his social media can reach only so many people, how is Modi going to get his message across to even smaller towns than the ones I mention. Casteism and feudalism are still rampant, a guy in kothaguda or kudankoolam is going to vote as per his needs. Modi has to make this guy believe in him, so that he can step out of his political boundaries. Modi must make that guy believe that Modi will provide opportunities for the guy to earn roti, kapada air makhan; instead of the promise of giving him roti,kapada aur makhan.

Bingo. The same could be said of ABV too. The 13 days and then the 13 months i power helped make ABV's a household name all over India - yes, even in S.TN, not to mention Nagaland and Mizoram. That exposure coupled street cred created great momentum.

I too hope NM does reasonably (but not unrealistically) well in the next LS polls, enough to stamp a national-level credo over his candidature for the more serious mid-term polls that will follow. The fear is that a UPA3 will find ways to last a full 5 yrs however - survivalists, amoralists and what-not. And 2019 is way too far away.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Feb 2013 06:48

RamaY wrote:The only exceptions are JK and NE states, and Kerala.

I did not know I was a minority.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Feb 2013 07:10

you will be soon...

But seriously I added it for the communist influence, and of course >48% minority population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... ommunities

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 20 Feb 2013 07:34

hnair wrote:
RamaY wrote:The only exceptions are JK and NE states, and Kerala.
I did not know I was a minority.

2001 census puts hindus at 56%. Right now hindus would be at 52-53%. So within 5-10 years, saar.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2013 08:45

Twitter is agog with this:

Congress Corporator Mer Singh Chaudhary killed Ehsan Jaffri in Guj 2002 riots

Apparently in a conversation with Katju some one revealed this.

It was intra INC fight.

I dont even know if Mer Singh Chaudhary exists?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Feb 2013 09:42

when self proclaimed "secular patriots" of a certain region start making statements like above, we should welcome it. it shows us exactly which elements will sow the seeds of most dissensions against consolidation/resurgence in that region. the self proclaimed "liberal/secular" individuals of certain groupings in the fertile Kaveri valley are going the way of the same group in the fertile GV. and of course, the converted Abrahamics will stand in the way and insist on maintaining special privileges and rights of "group identity", which of course should be strictly denied to the Hindu.

it shows us exactly which sections to ignore, circumvent, and reach to the grassroots. we should remember the lesson taught by MKG in this aspect. IGNORE that section which is intellectually and materially compromised with the foreign Imperialists. go straight to the people.

in TN, the force which realizes this, will lay the foundation for consolidation of the Hindu-fold. ignore the deracinated elites and go straight for the people who are outside of these circles. reach an understanding with people outside the power/intellectual/financial/ circles first. then the fight will begin, and it will be about who gets to set the future agenda. but never give any substance to the views of the elites. ignore them. go to the people directly.

there is no need to get worked up over what Theo_Fidel or SwamyG says. it only shows us who to ignore, and who to focus our attention on.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Feb 2013 10:36

'us'

'region'

'Gangetic valley'

'Ignore'

'Groupings'

'Resurgence'

'Consolidation'

'Force'

'People'

'Outside of circle'

'Agenda'

Okay, my stomach hurts with all this laughing and my ass hurts because rolling on the floor.
Ps: somebody forgot their medication.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Feb 2013 11:25

Muppalla wrote:Arjun, you are over ecstatic about Modi. However, realistically he will not be able to pull beyond 170 for BJP and after that it is all dirty coalition pulls and pressures. All the above words have different meanings to different locales. It is a vicious circle as India is designed to have bad governance unless some local leader shows leadership and duty towards nation. Getting to the top and change the game for Modi types is almost like second-independence-movement.

Muppalla garu, entirely legitimate to be ecstatic. This is the first hopeful signs in several decades that the level of doofusness in India may actually decrease.

You have to understand where many of Modi's hardcore fans are coming from. And folks who are not as much into economics and business may not appreciate how big of a change Modi represents.

I am not contesting that Modi needs to play dirty coalition politics - that will most likely be required. But lets be clear on Modi's single biggest strength- which is his positioning as a leader who does not believe in the standard paradigms of politics that have failed India since Independence. He needs to position himself as someone who is an 'outsider' who stands against everything that Indian politics has come to represent - vote-banking, empty promises without development, deeply cynical attitude, dynastic politics, casteism. That is the message that he needs to consistently deliver and try and make it to the best of his ability a US-style presidential debate that polarizes as many across the country as possible. Even if he does not win - he has a fantastic shot at changing the rules of the game and the standards of political debate in the country. And that is the prospect that gets his fanbase excited.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Feb 2013 11:47

The dirty play is a red herring.

Think about it.

Those who have acquiesced to much worse in every walk of life, are now trying to preach.

Papa don't preach....

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Feb 2013 11:54

Arjun, but we should temper to expect change in Govt, A George Fernandes at the TOP did not stop the Govt Babus in MOD to suddenly stop corruption as the Tehelka tapes showed in 2001. It will take at least 15 years to get rid of the INC system.

Every foreign power, 2 generations IPS, IAS , Judicary, Media, NGO, Top Businessmen, Trade union leaders have fed of this system. They will all resist change and try to reinstate the same system.

BY pinning too much hopes and people expecting Miracles are not going to happen. It will take time and change will be slow.

Pakistan will also do everything to Humiliate a Nationalist Govt, so WKK can show how Parakram, Kargil and tough approaches are failures. Pakis will never try an IC 814 Hijacking when UPA is in power.

People ask INC would not reacted differently to Kargil if it was in Power. they never ask what would UPA had done in an IC 814 situation??

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 20 Feb 2013 12:07

Just returned from a trip to Surat. Had the opportunity to visit villages 20-35 kms around Surat. Too bad I did not take pics. Neither I have the Singha ji like flourish to describe what I saw. But I can assure you, a visit to these villages would cure any secular fundamentalist. There is visible prosperity all around. Those villages looked like some Eurpoean villages in prosperity, with clean and pucca roads and india gate style foot paths. My friend of the above variety was transformed after this visit. If we can bring all of our villages to the level I saw in Gujrat, India would be heaven.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Feb 2013 12:14

My friend took his parents to Dwarikadheesh. Says he felt ashamed of even wanting to throw the banana peel once inside Gujarat. And this guy is a Faridabadi. If you know what that means.

. Eventually waited till he could find a bin to get rid of the peel.

And talked about huge tracts of land being used for industrial activity. Entire coastlines with integrated plants making intensive use do sea water.

Everytime there is something of Gujarat on TV I am always watching the background. Admittedly the Gujaratis had a head start but then the ethics speak for themselves bhai ji.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 20 Feb 2013 12:33

It helps, not to get too excited about NM. Cannot just put all the eggs in one basket, without any application of personal judgement. Could be risky. Also no need to take off clothes when we are not at the river yet.

At the same time the more conservative guys also need to realise that once at the banks of the river it is natural to take off the clothes and take the snaan. Right now the river of General elections is at hand and it is advisable to take the dip. Don't worry if the mantra-uccharan is not perfect. Some holy mutterings with heart in it is good enough.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Feb 2013 12:40

Gents, Modi will be taken care off using the judiciary unless he launches a pre-emptive attack right now. Do not underestimate the venality of the UPA lead GOI.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 20 Feb 2013 12:52

Actually, people may be enthusiastic for a change. Plain and simple. Modi has successfully positioned himself to represent that change. Even congress understands that a change in narrative is required. They won't be fighting elections based on UPA 2 track record but more on UPA1 track record, which voted them in second time.

Now since it will be difficult for them to install Rahul to represent an alternate narrative, since that space is already occupied and from likes of it (after trying) Mr Modi cannot be dislodged from that space, congress strategy will be to spread fear of the man. If I was INC I would do the same.

Please understand that if economy / inflation / governance was doing even OK, then we would have been looking at a very one sided contest in favor of INC. But since it has not happened, it is natural for people to look for alternative. I think votes for BJP and allies will be more of vote against INC then pro Mr Modi. This is how BJP came to power last time too.

Basically Indian electorate is in agreement with INC on Secularism / inclusiveness etc. But it is against INC on corruption and down right mis -governance. Now the priority of voters is shifting. With huge young population and bad economy obviously households are looking income generation more than religious / cast and other concerns.

My take is that if BJP comes to power it will be there for 5 years only. Increase in income, wealth and confidence in future will make those issues subside and the space will then be taken by other concerns (religion, caste and regional identity). For BJP in center unfortunately good governance will mean bad politics.

Now the question for INC is what went wrong, after such a good performance in 2009? We can only speculate. But immediately after elections the news coverage was very telling. Almost unanimous verdict was that Mr Manmohan Singh won the election and it was a vote for him. 'Singh is King' was the banner headline in a major daily. All this happened on the back of Nuclear deal vote, on which Mr Singh had staked his reputation and won. Also I think Mr Singh himself believed that verdict was in his favor. He started out aggressively. Made a 100 day agenda. Made tall promises and warned ministers.. 'perform or perish'.

I think the first 100 days after 2009 elections was the turning point. Senior ministers would have felt let down by not getting any of the political mileage. Not sure but may be even the Gandhi's would have felt a little uneasy with this new clout that Mr Singh thought he had earned. In UPA 1, left forced the Government to unite but in 2009 but there was no such cohesion force in Government. WB and TN were to face polls that meant coalition partners were going to be itchy coupled with international economic situation, Mr Singh became a sitting duck. He tried to strike back and he was successful in making NAC redundant but that is the only political victory he could get and cost he paid was huge. He consistently chose wrong battles, may be because he has no grounding or constituency of his own.

On the other hand Mr Modi's star was on a rise. People like Modi are true practioners of constraint theory. They look for constrained in there way and attack them with full gusto. They deal with such challenges head on,they work hard, they are focused and they deliver. And every victory and achievement is a moral booster. There are very many people in India like that but Mr Modi is unique in a way because he was forced to be an outsider in a political system by his own party and of course his opponents. At one hand one could feel handicapped by such a treatment but Modi true to his nature turned this into a huge opportunity. He could piss off INC and BJP and RSS all at once and still come out unscathed because the system failed to recognise his potential and for a good period people wrote him off, hence he has no favors to dole out no coalition to please. I remember Kipling's poem 'If' when I think of his rise 'If niether foes nor friends could hurt you'.

We might think that Modi has planned his rise to national politics but that is not the case. It is never the case. It is UPA 2 which is responsible for rise of Moditva.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Feb 2013 12:59

Sri wrote:\

My take is that if BJP comes to power it will be there for 5 years only. Increase in income, wealth and confidence in future will make those issues subside and the space will then be taken by other concerns (religion, caste and regional identity). For BJP in center unfortunately good governance will mean bad politics.
.

True, and that is why I have ONLY one expectation/hope/wish from a NaMo PM --> destroy the dynasty utterly. All the scams, from Cash for votes, to oil for food Volker, to AW to coal gate should be unleashed with such fury that they spend their nights and days in a court room if not in Tihar.

This time there should be no mistakes of ABV of underestimating the C-system. Kill the system, from the root.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 20 Feb 2013 13:08

SwamyG wrote:
I think this where Modi or his handlers can go wrong. Cuddalore or Cuddapha are far away from Gujarat. People could have heard about Modi. But it is their local leaders that matter to them. Modi or his social media can reach only so many people, how is Modi going to get his message across to even smaller towns than the ones I mention. Casteism and feudalism are still rampant, a guy in kothaguda or kudankoolam is going to vote as per his needs. Modi has to make this guy believe in him, so that he can step out of his political boundaries. Modi must make that guy believe that Modi will provide opportunities for the guy to earn roti, kapada air makhan; instead of the promise of giving him roti,kapada aur makhan.

Thats why he needs to campaign throughout India extensively. The p-secs have already made him a household name.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Feb 2013 14:20

Sri- All the coalgate and 2G scams took place in UPA-1. UPA-1 inherited a relatively good governance and like Hitler spent the money of Jalnagyam's, Bogus Farm loan waiver. Now we are back to dynasty and cronies rate of growth. It has all the media in its pocket to do its marketing and Indian public fell for it.

You are correct even if bJP wins in 2014 it will be there only for 5 years.