Discussion on Indian Special Forces

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 22 Oct 2012 18:11

Rats bite off toe of a hospitalised 9 Para soldier who was left paralysed after being hit by a bullet in the spine during an op.

Photo of newspaper clipping from which I first came to know of this: http://twitpic.com/b6bzxy
Edited later to include URL: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rats- ... l/1020249/

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 22 Oct 2012 20:22

sum wrote:Now women 'black cats' for special operations

In a first for country's elite counter-terror force NSG, a squad of woman 'black cat' commandos have been trained for deployment in specialist operations like hostage situations and VIP security........

The NSG has a small team of 25 woman 'black cats' at present in its ranks and they have been trained in firing high-calibre assault weapons, unarmed combat and commando survival skills. NSG DG Joshi, however, refrained to disclose the exact role that these woman combatants will render in the force but said all options were open with regard to deploying them either in VIP security duties or for specific counter-terror operations.

In simple words it is for protecting Sonia Gandhi, Priyanka, Mamta Banerjee, Mayawati, Jayalalitha, Renuka Choudhary, Sheil Dixit, Pratibha Patil etc

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 22 Oct 2012 21:44

@ ^^
Read somewhere that they were raised specifically for protecting these very ladies but Mayawati and Jayalalitha refused these women commandos for reasons best known to them

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Oct 2012 01:04

vishal wrote:Rats bite off toe of a hospitalised 9 Para soldier who was left paralysed after being hit by a bullet in the spine during an op.

Photo of newspaper clipping from which I first came to know of this: http://twitpic.com/b6bzxy
Edited later to include URL: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rats- ... l/1020249/

very sad state of affairs... hope this is an exception and not the rule.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Oct 2012 01:06

Kersi D wrote:Now women 'black cats' for special operations
...
In simple words it is for protecting Sonia Gandhi, Priyanka, Mamta Banerjee, Mayawati, Jayalalitha, Renuka Choudhary, Sheil Dixit, Pratibha Patil etc

Funny you mentioned all these names, I remember former WB CM Buddadeb Battacharya having couple of women SPGs to protect him?!? Ala Gadhaffi shtyle...

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 11 Nov 2012 08:20

Fire in Bandipora barrack, Lt Col charred to death

A Lieutenant Colonel of army’s special forces (SF) was charred to death in his barrack at Sunerwani village of Bandipora district in north Kashmir on Friday night.

Lt Col S Apte, second-in command of 5 Para unit deployed for counter-insurgency operations in Bandipora area was in his barrack when the fire broke out in the camp. Lt Col Apte received burn injuries and was declared brought dead in the hospital.

The incident occurred at between 2 and 3 am when the fire broke out from one of the barrack at the camp site. Within minutes, the flames engulfed other adjacent barracks reducing them to ashes. Fire tenders were immediately pressed into the service but Lt Col Apte could not be saved.
The jawans and other officers stationed in the camp are said to be safe.

However the camp suffered extensive damages in the fire incident. Army sources said there was no damage to the arsenal in the camp site.

After the news about the fire broke out police team rushed to the spot to take stock the situation.
Army spokesman Lt Col Ankur Vasishit said an enquiry has been ordered into the incident and nothing is being ruled out at this stage. “An enquiry will look into the incident. It will be premature to say anything at this stage,” he said.

The 5-para unit of SF is located on the strategic Bandipora-Gurez road and has been engaged counter-insurgency operations in the area which was once nicknamed the corridor of terror given its proximity with the Line of Control and the high infestation of ultras in the jungle areas.
Lt Col Apte, hailing from Ahmadabad was leading the elite unit in the area for some time.
“His body will be flown to Ahmadabad tomorrow for last rites”, said Lt Col Vasishit.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Nov 2012 08:41

A Lieutenant Colonel of army’s special forces (SF) was charred to death in his barrack at Sunerwani village of Bandipora district in north Kashmir on Friday night.

Are these temporary barracks which SF use( and keep setting up at different places) or is this the base HQ for 5 Para in their region of operation? If so, should the location be in public domain?

wig · Post by **wig** » 12 Nov 2012 10:56

Army probing Lt Col’s death

The Army was probing the officer whose charred body was seen in an operational shelter in a camp near Bandipora town amidst indications that the fire could have been an insider's job.

Officially, the Army had said that the fire was created by a short circuit and investigations were on into it but other sources said it could have been caused by an act of sabotage by some within the 5 Para Regiment in which Lt Col Sarang Apte was acting as the second-in-command.

The body of Apte, a decorated officer who took part in the Kargil war, with 100 per cent burns, was found in a camp after a fire broke out in several huts during the intervening night of Friday and Saturday.

Sources said preliminary investigation of an internal inquiry ordered into the incident pointed towards a possible involvement of some within the unit who might have triggered the fire to settle personal scores with Apte.

The investigators started working on sabotage theory as it was highly unlikely that the fire, if caused by electric short circuit, would have spread to other huts as these were located at a fair distance from the hut in which Apte was sleeping, the sources said.

Meanwhile, the shootout in which Maj Maninderpal Singh and a 70-year-old civilian were injured in Pattan area of Baramulla district yesterday, could also leave the Army red faced.

The sources said the officer was probably lured by two youth to an orchard, the reason for which remained a mystery.

The Major reportedly entered into a heated argument with the two youth, one of whom seized the officer's revolver and shot him, sources said.

While one of them, Javed Ahmad, was nabbed by security forces within hours of the incident, the other youth, Firdaus Ahmad, who is having the officer's pistol, is still at large, the sources said.

The Army has so far remained tightlipped about the incident.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 11 Dec 2012 23:05

Excellent documentary on Garud Cdo Force. Even to layperson's eyes .... the progress is noticeable. It is also a large force with ~1000 members rivalling the MARCOS

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-i ... ory/257589

Their mission set is now confirmed to include:

* Combat Search and Rescue (like USAF Pararescue)
* Laser Designation
* Force Protection (like RAF Regiment)
* Counter Terrorism
* IIRC Rocky & Mayur docu indicated even Hostage Rescue and Counter Hijack roles.

They have settled on a 4 man team concept vs 6 man team in IA SF.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 23 Jan 2013 00:17

Can we in India do this? i.e pick up a person through a sky hook. Check out this video where intelligence agents are parachuted in hostile territory and then upon completion of a mission picked up with a Sky hook.

http://military.discovery.com/tv-shows/ ... y-hook.htm

The downed person inflates a balloon (part of his kit) with a supplied helium bottle which takes the balloon with rope all the way up to 500 ft in air. Plane aims for the "sky hook" in the rope which gets attached to the airplane releasing the balloon while attaching the person to the plane that gets lifted up and is brought in.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 30 Jan 2013 13:14

I have a question for the experts. I was seeing the Republic Day and Beating Retreat videos for this year, and in both videos, when the PM arrived, there was an SPG person in sight with a slim briefcase in hand (others had weapons).

For instance, in the following video of this year's Beating Retreat ceremony, he can be seen starting around 7:00 mins into the video, walking alongside the PM's car. He gives the thumbs up to the agent inside the PM's car to open the door.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRiPOVgfT_c

What is this briefcase and why does it seem to go where the PM goes?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2013 13:31

it might be a folding BP-shield to throw over the PM incase of incoming fire. our VVIPs do not on the surface wear BPJ on public occasions.

on POTUS security detail where overt bandooks are not allowed to keep a 'friendly' image, those briefcases contain compact automatic weapons and shotguns.

wiki
Bodyguards that protect high-risk principals may wear body armor such as kevlar or ceramic vests. The bodyguards may also have other ballistic shields, such as kevlar-reinforced briefcases or clipboards which, while appearing innocuous, can be used to protect the principal. The principal may also wear body armor in high-risk situations.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Jan 2013 13:46

on POTUS security detail where overt bandooks are not allowed to keep a 'friendly' image, those briefcases contain compact automatic weapons and shotguns.

Have seen the same in NSG raising day activities where HRT/VIP protection etc are displayed. So, would assume it would be a Khan style suitcase automatic weapon.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Jan 2013 13:55

Can it be that even MMS does not trust the Pakis and has a Nuke trigger in the Briefcase?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2013 13:55

imo its more likely to be ballistic shield, because others have uncovered steyr weapons nearby. could be wrong though.
http://www.leison911.com/showproduct.asp?ID=1549

heavy firepower is probably not the focus area for his close protection detail , but protecting the principal is - hence the need for defensive measures like this . no matter how many security, someone might sneak in a gun and start shooting..dont want to be helpless then.

a van in the convoy would have a team with heavy firepower to attack and force the fight away from principal if needed to enable him to make a safe escape.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Jan 2013 13:56

Can it be that even MMS does not trust the Pakis and has a Nuke trigger in the Briefcase?

^^ IIRC, seems to thin for such a stuff and anyways, dont we keep our Nooks demated from delivery systems?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Jan 2013 14:11

sum wrote:
Can it be that even MMS does not trust the Pakis and has a Nuke trigger in the Briefcase?

^^ IIRC, seems to thin for such a stuff and anyways, dont we keep our Nooks demated from delivery systems?

You are probably right about the Briefcases, but even if our Nukes were mated, such info would not be public or if such a Briefcase existed.

Even a Pro west Yeltsin had a guard carry the briefcase and was really tested by " an attempted satellite launch by the USA with Polaris missile launched off the coast of Norway from a Boomer in 1997"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2013 15:41

I found the perfect demo of what that case can do - a iran army day 2012 demo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YO3EkKUswk

held up like a screen it can stop bomb fragments or small arms fire. a couple of those dumped onto the principal lying prone on the back seat will save from bullets that penetrate the windows.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Feb 2013 07:41

NSG emulates US Navy Seals, goes hi-tech

:
:
However, the most ambitious project that the force is pursuing is the creation of what it calls the 'Future Black Cat Commando' or the super commando. Inspired by the US Navy Seals' Abbottabad operation to kill Osama Bin Laden, the project aims to arm its commandoes with gadgets "that make them a walking system" for seamless exchange of information and command with the control room resulting in more effective operations.
:
:

vivekmehta · Post by **vivekmehta** » 08 Feb 2013 10:00

[quote="Aditya_V"][quote="sum"][quote]Can it be that even MMS does not trust the Pakis and has a Nuke trigger in the Briefcase?

i think this has been debated earlier also.its not nuke trigger but just a Bullet proof blanket.

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 20 Feb 2013 16:47

Aditya G wrote:Excellent documentary on Garud Cdo Force. Even to layperson's eyes .... the progress is noticeable. It is also a large force with ~1000 members rivalling the MARCOS

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-i ... ory/257589

Their mission set is now confirmed to include:

* Combat Search and Rescue (like USAF Pararescue)
* Laser Designation
* Force Protection (like RAF Regiment)
* Counter Terrorism
* IIRC Rocky & Mayur docu indicated even Hostage Rescue and Counter Hijack roles.

They have settled on a 4 man team concept vs 6 man team in IA SF.

What are the chances of a joint special forces command happening in india?? Seems to me that it should be a better bet at co-ordination, cross training, logistics etc.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 03 Mar 2013 08:21

Don't know if this has been posted before. It is a news report about a new SWAT team formed in Agra.

http://youtu.be/RjOBNDx0agE

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 06 Mar 2013 09:59

I have seen the Garud's video of Rajeen Ranjan many many times... he comes across as an excellent narrator, without patronising, without dhoti shivering and above all, lets the subjects talk... kudos to him... he deserves an award... for sure...

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Mar 2013 16:13

X-post from pictures thread.
From Livefist. Col SS Shekhawat is looking as badass as ever. Respect to the man.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZJJH8-zfdD0/U ... 761138.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ezWPYxvW3AM/U ... 757536.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-U3yiGG0ypY8/U ... 759341.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sYNjXR-C5W0/U ... 766518.jpg

See http://livefist.blogspot.in/2013/03/pho ... itary.html for more pics.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 21 Mar 2013 23:32

Special Forces in India
By Lt Gen Prakash Katoch

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Apr 2013 12:02

Something for Surya, excellent discussion on Special forces

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 130415.htm

The fact is that a parachute battalion is an infantry battalion that can be delivered by air and once para-dropped, it performs its infantry role. In April 2002, Lt Gen R K Nanavatty, then northern army commander (who had served as commander, HQ special forces including as part of IPKF in Sri Lanka) had stated, "I find the vision blurring in certain quarters on the issue of parachute and parachute (special forces) battalions. I am very clear that a parachute battalion is simply an infantry battalion in an airborne role and has nothing in common with a special forces battalion

We have gone for unprecedented special forces expansion ignoring the universally accepted four special forces truths: one, humans are more important than hardware; two, quality is better than quantity; three, special forces cannot be mass produced; four, competent special forces cannot be created after emergencies arise. We have faulted in the unprecedented expansion of the NSG as well.

So what is the use of having large numbers when they are reduced to playing the role of a super-infantry at best. This is an extremely sad state of affairs because special forces, by nature, are small, need intensive investments to develop special skills which cannot be mass produced.
.........................

Gen Katoch: Let me put it this way, they have been successful within the constraints of their employment albeit they have hardly been employed as how special forces should actually be -- strategically.
............................
While special forces should be central to asymmetric response including against irregular forces, asymmetric warfare does not automatically equate to a physical attack. A physical attack is only the extreme and potentially most dangerous expression of asymmetric warfare. The key lies in achieving strategic objectives through application of modest resources with the essential psychological element.

But special forces are meant to perform strategic tasks. That is the reason countries have special forces. However, a shy politico-military leadership has trapped themselves into a vicious cycle. They have always viewed and employed the special forces in very narrow, tactical terms. As a result they have never bothered to arm, equip or task them for the strategic interests that special forces are supposed to achieve.
...................................
For instance, the only military officer who sits with the cabinet's crisis management group in the United Kingdom is the director, special forces, a major general officer who has served with the elite SAS in his career. That is the importance mature democracies and governments accord the special forces.
....................................

Gen Katoch: Analysis proves that failures have occurred when the hierarchy/higher commanders fail to understand what special forces are about, and ironically fail to listen to special forces advice.

Even if one is stupid enough to task them wrongly, you have to leave the execution to them -- not compound the stupidity of ordering them 'how' to execute the task. Besides, you cannot task special forces on zero intelligence.

Special forces units are much smaller than a conventional infantry unit and since they work in small teams they don't carry any heavy guns or firepower. Despite that, they were thrown into frontal assaults like conventional infantry battalions leading to several failures. This was a criminal misuse of special forces and left them high and dry.
.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Apr 2013 18:03

thanks Sanku

Unfortunately, the parachute regiment mostly had colonels of the regiment who had not served or commanded special forces units/sub units and their sole aim was to convert more and more parachute units to special forces, undermining the growth of special forces and stunting the special forces concept.

I have been talking of this - the para heads of the SF have ruined it. Started with Nirbhay Sharma (read his interview in Force magazine long ago).

The SF needs to have its own regiment.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 16 Apr 2013 01:35

Good read. Given the "do not operate across the border" propensity of our enlightened political leadership, our Special Forces are restricted to COIN-operated duties. Sad.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Apr 2013 09:49

Surya wrote:<SNIP>I have been talking of this - the para heads of the SF have ruined it. Started with Nirbhay Sharma (read his interview in Force magazine long ago).

The SF needs to have its own regiment.

From what I gather, even the latest round of new units raised under Para Regiment have morphed into SF...

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 16 Apr 2013 13:10

The tragedy of Indian SF is that while at the unit level we have had outstanding combat leaders like Katoch, Sheonan Singh, Sudhir Kumar and Arvind Singh they are all at the end of the day cut from the same cloth of the "disciplined" fauji and thus unable to play the political games at the higher echelons which empire builders like Nirbhay Sharma excel at.

The cult of personality has been critical to forming great SF units and cultures - from an absolute maverick like David Stirling to a bully like Charlie Beckwith to a rogue like Richard Marcinko (who later paid the price for making powerful enemies) to an opportunist like Ulrich Wegener, such folks are needed to cut through the clutter, red tape and risk-averse thinking that typifies most systems.

That is the nature of the beast.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Apr 2013 17:52

From what I gather, even the latest round of new units raised under Para Regiment have morphed into SF...

Thats why I only consider the original SFs as true SF.

But unfortunately the moronic conversion of Paras into SF has degraded them too.

Not to mention morale

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 16 Apr 2013 20:02

Though I certainly do not support a dilution of skills and training so that more units can be labeled SF but I do rather support the expansion of numbers. I agree on a few things with the article but just because we are adding more numbers doesn't mean our SF units be it Paras, Marcos, Garuds, NSG or SFF have a degraded quality. The training imparted on them is tougher than it ever has been and the focus is addtionally on COIN ops as well. The legacy training was more focused on ops behind enemy lines but they have had to adapt to the changing needs.

Also many clearly mistaken the idea that just because they undertake daily COIN/Anti terror ops near the LOC doesn't mean that is their primary role, this is clearly much needed target practice. Almost every infantry regiment, SF unit is at one point or the other is deployed near the LOC for operational training and much needed live target practice. Just because a battlion from the Madras Regiment is deployed to Siachen doesn't make that regiment a specialist in mountain warfare, rather such deployments are imparted in order to make the force adaptable.

Offcourse the next step is to have a unified Special operations command and clearly defined roles and tasks. This can take a bit longer since this will require all services to agree on basic working structure that ensure success every time. A SF doctrine forged in fire. Such doctrine is in the works and will become a reality soon.

The conversion of certain Para battalions to SF is not without thought either, this conversion had required incredible amounts of training to be imparted and only the worth remain the converted units.

Though the whole idea of being special is being a small force but when taking into account the idea of a massive two front war with our adversaries (with hundreds if not thousands of critical targets) it is only right we need numbers even in our specialists.

Morale has never be low, we currently have under Parachute Regiment 8 SF Para Commando Battalions with 2 more to be raised, 4 Para SF Airborne Battalions and hopefully more to be raised, 2 TA Battalions and 1 RR battalion for COIN.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Apr 2013 20:17

but just because we are adding more numbers doesn't mean our SF units be it Paras, Marcos, Garuds, NSG or SFF have a degraded quality. The training imparted on them is tougher than it ever has been and the focus is addtionally on COIN ops as well. The legacy training was more focused on ops behind enemy lines but they have had to adapt to the changing needs.

first of all keep it focused - lets talk SF here - (Marcos have no degradation because there is no conflict in their structure, NSG is a mess and whatever skills it has is because of draining out the SF units)

Training capsules are added all the time. there is no such thing as focus on COIN. they complete a CI capsule, some special JW capsule etc

The conversion of certain Para battalions to SF is not without thought either, this conversion had required incredible amounts of training to be imparted and only the worth remain the converted units.

really ?? so 6 months probation is equal to 2 month or 3 month probation? What do you think will be rejection percentage for 6 month probation vs 2 month?? 6 months of gruelling training - with only every second sunday off.
As for "thoughts" - you can read the incredible thinking in the FORCE interview with Nirbhay Sharma.

Morale has never be low, we currently have under Parachute Regiment 8 SF Para Commando Battalions with 2 more to be raised, 4 Para SF Airborne Battalions and hopefully more to be raised, 2 TA Battalions and 1 RR battalion for COIN.

Sure I do a 6 month probation and get the balidan badge, the new guys do it for 2 months and get one. I will be a very happy person indeed

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 17 Apr 2013 12:52

I would think that airborne units being converted into SF units would have addtional 3 month training apart from 3 month probation. I seriously doubt any new guys would get a balidan badge in 2 months. Keep in mind a lot of the training modules of the Airborne and SF are common, for SF conversion some addtional modules would be required.

I think there are clear lack of clarity for clear mandates and each force sticking to its intended role. We have BSF, SSB and ITBP all doing border defence while they can all be merged into one single force BSF, but we have BSF doing anti naxal missions , which is BS. We have too many forces. BSF should one single force with Boder duties ( with training imparted for desert, moutain and jungle warfare etc). With some careful retraining and chnages, some of the elite from ITBP and SSB can be spawned into new infantry regiments (such as a Tibet Regiment or Tibet light infantry)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Apr 2013 13:44

Septimus P. wrote:I would think that airborne units being converted into SF units would have addtional 3 month training apart from 3 month probation. I seriously doubt any new guys would get a balidan badge in 2 months. Keep in mind a lot of the training modules of the Airborne and SF are common, for SF conversion some addtional modules would be required.<SNIP>

The 6-month probation had a very high rejection rate with people falling by the wayside in the last month. And while a Para officer/jawan has better chances of clearing a PARA SF probation, the odds are still stacked against an individual. So, IIRC, while there was 80% rejection rate for probationers from Infantry, it was a tad better for PARA guys.

The 3-month probation has a better percentage rate.

Even with 3-month probation - on what basis is the mass conversion of battalions to SF happening? How are battalions en masse able to convert when probability dictates that no more than 30% (or even 40%) of them will be able to sustain themselves during the probation period?

As it is, very few from PARA used to volunteer for SF to begin with.

This is where the dilution of standards is coming into play. It is not about training modules. It is about the men. For a true SF, the men need to be chosen very carefully.

srin · Post by **srin** » 17 Apr 2013 14:30

Training depends upon the missions, doesn't it ? Are they used as elite light infantry or are they used for unconventional activities (covert cross-loc missions, etc) ?

The trouble is that we won't hear about the latter for a few years unless there is a spectacular success or spectacular failure.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Apr 2013 15:04

good article by tarmak007 on belgaum center ops

there is a pic of a dead fish being injected with something in a steel dish. perhaps its to simulate injecting a human.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Apr 2013 16:50

I would think that airborne units being converted into SF units would have addtional 3 month training apart from 3 month probation. I seriously doubt any new guys would get a balidan badge in 2 months. Keep in mind a lot of the training modules of the Airborne and SF are common, for SF conversion some addtional modules would be required.

unfortunately your hopes are not true

Its not about additional

its about sustained training without a break

Men give up on the 4th and 5th months ---
Men who otherwise would best any para etc

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 17 Apr 2013 17:14

On wasting SF men time and again by our leadership, the reason is more to do with attitude. Suppose we give them mandate to hunt and kill terrorists in J&K with specific mandate not to take any prisoners other than for inteligence gatheering and waste them after getting all the info needed, it could have worked well. Use satilite and UAV and human assets to locate terror hideouts and take them out surgically. No arrests, no prisoners, no press reports, just nothing but killing them. Same with Naxals. Since Naxals keep large size units also Para units can be directly dropped by helicopters and it should be totally one sided. Again no prisoners and no press. Just hunt and kill.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Apr 2013 18:46

^^ What you are asking for is already happening.

This is more about use of SF to go in and destroy camps across LoC.