Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2013 01:03

Theo

If RSS is communal, Secularism too is communal. The current constitution of India itself is expungement of prior constitution (whatever that is) and so on. To "believe" that and to claim that only current constitution has the secular "covonence" is extremely communal to start with and is the main reason behind the EJ/MaCaulay/Commie constipation.

Like others said NM stood up in elections (unlike MMS) and won them thrice with thumping majority in Gujarat. He is acting as Gujarat CM only and not CM of S.TN. As and when he contests and wins the General elections he will have the electoral acceptance to be the PM of India.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Mar 2013 01:06

Theo_Fidel wrote: The electorate will decide one way or the other...

You are wrong. The electorate can only decide in terms of elections; the Justice department is the one that will decide if he is guilty or not. If electorate is the deciding factor, then he is innocent, he has won elections repeatedly after 2002.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Mar 2013 01:07

Theo, love it or hate it the RSS with 5-10 million estimated cadres is a reality. It is the primary Hindu socio-political Hindu outfit in the world.

Over the last two decades in the jungles I have learned that the US has three interests viz-a-viz India a) economic benefit, b) evangelical and c) preservation of Pakistan and one primary, overall interest and that is self-preservation. Except (a) the US has no benefit in the Sangh Parivar and in fact may be at odds. So don't expect the US to embrace the Sanghis anytime soon. The rest is sheer grandstanding. As Chetan Bhagat rightly pointed out the US has been in bed with some of the worst dictators and mass murderers for purely self-interest. As long as the Sangh doesn't threaten US self-interest they are not going to be threatened but because of (b) and (c) they are unlikely to best buddies anytime soon.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2013 01:09

^ SwamyG garu,

I think you are losing the debate. Why are you even talking about US's dealings with dictators and mass murderers; which NM is not?

In independent India there are only three mass murderer organizations. First is the Christian Church, Second is Congress-system (MKG and JLN being the real mass murderers) and Third is Islamic Ummah.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 06 Mar 2013 01:11

^^Mr. Theo, it is funny how the jihadis treat Christians when they have the slightest bit of power. Just remember what happened to the Christian teacher in Kerala who dared to speak on the child rapist aka Mohammed. So, before you go mouthing off about not minding being seen an EJ/commie take note of the your jihadi friends with machetes. In the guise of putting forth contrary viewpoints, for a LONG LONG time, we have had to put up with these asinine comments. This is how the EJs and Macualites ooze their filthy goo of subtle derision through the fine seams of a solid argument (no argument can be 100%, after all we are human). So, spare me the martyr complex, people will value your arguments based on their real worth and not because you play the martyr of free speech or because you are playing devil's advocate.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Mar 2013 01:26

Theo:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/communal

communal: of or relating to a community

Is there a pejorative aspect here ? The RSS are a Hindu volunteer organization that is also an implicit political force. Just as the church has always attempted to utilize a gathering of the faithful to propound political action, so do Hindu volunteer organizations.

Why exactly is their being either political or communal a pejorative, exactly ? Anything that happens within a church or mosque that doesn't involve praying to Jesus or Allah is a political act as well. Every religious community will also attempt to propound itself as a political force.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Mar 2013 01:27

Theo_Fidel wrote: BTW I would not characterize all NRI's so simply. There are many different points of view. For instance one can be economically center right but socially center left. There are at least a few groups like that out there.

I would say NRIs are "broadly" divided into those two camps. There are indeed many non-Hindu Indians who are nationalists. In fact the most persistent and vigorous leftists have Hindu names.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Mar 2013 01:52

An important facet of a leader is how he handles dissension, diversion and distraction. Here is how Rahul seems to be handling some of it: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/cant- ... l/1083756/

It is not a good way....

At a meeting with Congress MPs from Haryana, Rahul was learnt to have repeatedly said, "I will not tolerate indiscipline. I cannot have party MPs speaking against own governments. I can't let the Congress become its own opposition as it is happening in many states."

This came a day after MPs from Delhi, including Ajay Maken and Mahabal Mishra, criticised the Sheila Dikshit government's decision to trifurcate the Municipal Corporation of Delhi citing it as the main reason for the party's loss in the civil polls last year. At a previous meeting, Delhi PCC chief J P Agrawal had criticised Dikshit for not extending cooperation to the party.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Mar 2013 01:52

Well many have answered about RSS, let me as well take a crack.
RSS is first not a communal organization, it is however a Hindu organization (now this despite the fact that the current 'intellectual' discourse is trying hard to say being Hindu itself is communal, or even existing as one is communal, you should roll over and die or convert, the discourse has not reached that state, yet). Second the other side in fact is well organized and way ahead of RSS. The Religion of Love has say some 50 odd states backing it, some superpower willing to use influence and power (East Timor or Central Africa, and I am not judging the cause, just talking about the influence), some states that has only one reason to exist (for the religion, though currently the head has resigned); they have wealth that they can buy India 100 times over (not to say about RSS) and are buying. They control the media and the popular discourse in India (thus damning anything Hindu). RSS does not have any country backing it, or money or anything. So if anything, Religion of love is far well organized, much more powerful and winning the race by miles.
Religion of peace, it has the wealth, many countries backing, may not have the sophistication of religion of love, but have the number and desire to get dirty. They are also winning. In 20 years, more than half of newborn in India will be from Religion of peace. They today control some of the government by proxy (UP, where they denied Hindus water so that MahaKumbh has its difficulties).
I say all in all, for the Hindus probably RSS is a hindrance; it gives a false feeling of being safe, when the battle and the War is much more severe. So you are wrong when you say RSS is part of a problem, unless of course you believe Hindus do not have the right to exist.
rgds,
fanne

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Mar 2013 01:54

Supratik wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote: BTW I would not characterize all NRI's so simply. There are many different points of view. For instance one can be economically center right but socially center left. There are at least a few groups like that out there.
I would say NRIs are "broadly" divided into those two camps. There are indeed many non-Hindu Indians who are nationalists. In fact the most persistent and vigorous leftists have Hindu names.

The problem is because NRIs mostly those based in America, continue to view and influence others in looking at this as a Left vs Right, Liberals vs Conservatives issues.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Mar 2013 01:57

Also, the Abrahamic faiths have been highly organized almost since their inception. The Jews lost it and suffered and came back with zionism. We have been suffering since the 7-8th century. So it was only a matter of time before Hindus became organized or became extinct. It doesn't matter whether it is named RSS or ABCD. So I think it is moot to say "Why the RSS exist?". If Hindus were left to their own means perhaps something like the RSS would not have happened. Instead the focus and if necessary criticism should be on their actions rather than on their existence.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Mar 2013 01:58

Yes the situation of the Republican party in the USA is very interesting. I have pointed out many times that there are similarities and some differences between what is being attempted by means of dog whistles and what is being attempted, though no where on that scale in India. You can also see how the minorities have reacted. Exp. Asian Americans towards what is now a covertly and not so covertly communal party. Asian Americans are the most acceptable group to the GOP yet Asians avoid voting for them.

BTW this is also the angst of whites in USA. The 'take the country back' and 'real american' concepts come from this.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Mar 2013 02:02

SwamyG wrote: The problem is because NRIs mostly those based in America, continue to view and influence others in looking at this as a Left vs Right, Liberals vs Conservatives issues.

It majorly started with Kashmir and Babri Masjid. On both occasions the left started a vigorous campaign on both issues and all Indians who opposed it or had a different opinion were labeled. It aggravated with the rise of the BJP.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2013 02:04

^ Noise ==

RSS/BJP != Republican Party
India != USA
Hinduism != Christianity/Islam/Judaism == religion

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Mar 2013 02:07

M Lekhi haunts Mani Iyer. Enjoyed seeing Suhel having so much fun.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/india- ... /267399?hp

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Mar 2013 02:08

Theo_Fidel wrote:Yes the situation of the Republican party in the USA is very interesting. I have pointed out many times that there are similarities and some differences between what is being attempted by means of dog whistles and what is being attempted, though no where on that scale in India. You can also see how the minorities have reacted. Exp. Asian Americans towards what is now a covertly and not so covertly communal party. Asian Americans are the most acceptable group to the GOP yet Asians avoid voting for them.

BTW this is also the angst of whites in USA. The 'take the country back' and 'real american' concepts come from this.

White angst in America cannot be compared with the suffering of Indian indigenous faiths for 1300 hundred years. You have to understand where it is coming from.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Mar 2013 02:09

Swamy G,
If you google hard enough (I tried and failed), you will find this story - There is some Con supported NGO. The husband and Wife are old time Con lackeys. It so happens that they invite Rahul to that NGO (to get more fund and what not). The crowd there cheers the name of the Husband running the NGO (To impress the Prince, it must have been rehearsed a bit I would imagine). When the show got over, RG got into his car to leave, the Husband also tried to get in the same car (I mean who would not, it shows that you have power, and ears of the Prince). The prince snubs him, says something to this effect - He is a big leader, ask him to get in his own car. Apparently he was miffed that they did not say RG jindabad, talk about being insecure.
Mark my word, I doubt he will get the top position, not for any other reason but this - G me dum nahi hai to take that post. He knows his worth and is not confident
rgds,
fanne

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Mar 2013 02:19

SwamyG wrote:You are wrong. The electorate can only decide in terms of elections; the Justice department is the one that will decide if he is guilty or not. If electorate is the deciding factor, then he is innocent, he has won elections repeatedly after 2002.

Hmm..

I don't think I said that. What I said was the electorate will decide if a person with a clear RSS thought process will rule India. Even WRT Gujarat it should be remembered that even in 2012 Modi got 48% of the vote. In the Indian system this translates to overwhelming dominance. Still, other points of view should not be forgotten. Even Obama got 51%.

There is nothing implicitly wrong in being communal. The Catholic church is communal as is the Mullah of Jama Masjid as is the Kanchi Sankaracharya. The difference is they do not run for secular office. If they did they would be attacked quite viciously for their communal thought process. IIRC the RSS denies that any minorities even exist in India. They only see hindu's so they represent only hindu's. Is this not communal?

The problem with secular office is its need to represent all. You don't have to do this in a religious organization but you do in a secular one.

I have always thought that the real failure of secularism in India is its inability to give young hindu's a sense of power. Hindu's are 85% of India and if they voted together they could overwhelm every other point of view.

Like I said it is up to the electorate....

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Mar 2013 02:26

Supratik wrote:White angst in America cannot be compared with the suffering of Indian indigenous faiths for 1300 hundred years. You have to understand where it is coming from.

Yes that is one clear difference as I mentioned. Whites plundered NA and drove others to genetic extermination now in their eyes something similar is being done to them and they don't like it. The situations in Pakistan and Bangladesh do not help.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 06 Mar 2013 02:35

Theo_Fidel wrote:I don't think I said that. What I said was the electorate will decide if a person with a clear RSS thought process will rule India. Even WRT Gujarat it should be remembered that even in 2012 Modi got 48% of the vote. In the Indian system this translates to overwhelming dominance. Still, other points of view should not be forgotten. Even Obama got 51%.

This is madrassa math conflating two different types of elections and systems. The BJP - not Modi - were elected with 48% of overall electorate in an assembly election. Obama was elected in a presidential system. Modi's personal win margin was 78% - 120K votes out of 154k polled in his constituency.

As to Modi being an 'RSS man', so what if he is ? Why does his alleged affiliation to a Hindu organization make him not qualified for secular office ? He's already been reelected to secular office three times in a row in his own state. Does every other elected leader disavow any affiliation to his own church, mosque or gurudwara ? Even the communists of Kerala go to temple and church and openly retain affiliation to their chosen communal organizations.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Mar 2013 02:38

The Catholic church is communal as is the Mullah of Jama Masjid as is the Kanchi Sankaracharya. The difference is they do not run for secular office.

Neither does the RSS.

And you can't compare the RSS to the Catholic Church or Jama Masjid. A Hindu analogue of them, if you insist on one could be the Tirupati Devasthanam at the most, which also does not run for "secular" office.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Mar 2013 02:38

Supratik wrote:
SwamyG wrote: The problem is because NRIs mostly those based in America, continue to view and influence others in looking at this as a Left vs Right, Liberals vs Conservatives issues.
It majorly started with Kashmir and Babri Masjid. On both occasions the left started a vigorous campaign on both issues and all Indians who opposed it or had a different opinion were labeled. It aggravated with the rise of the BJP.

The BJP just did not rise in vacuum, INC was losing its sheen - its charismatic leaders were dying or gone, its hard and selfless workers associated with freedom struggle and the progress after Independence were going away, Indira Gandhi was getting authoritarian {Look at the excuse Rahul gives - his grand mother had to do things because of pressure and stuff...}. It is a generational thing, when one looks at period of say 400-500 years this happened slowly and for the better. Slow passing of the baton - so to speak.
One needs to learn to crawl and walk before one can run.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Mar 2013 02:41

RamaY wrote:^ Noise ==

RSS/BJP != Republican Party
India != USA
Hinduism != Christianity/Islam/Judaism == religion

Well said. Under serious investigation the terms left, right, liberals, conservatives, progressives, capitalists, communists, socialists ityadi will not be adequate enough to define the gamut of ideologies and aspirations of people. There is a better term and definition for them, which would be OT here.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2013 02:42

Theo_Fidel wrote: IIRC the RSS denies that any minorities even exist in India. They only see hindu's so they represent only hindu's. Is this not communal?

This is factually, logically and scientifically correct. All Indians = Bharatiyas = Hindus.

Christian Indians and Muslim Indians are same as Gujaratis, Andhras, Tamilians, Assamese, Kashmiris etc., Just sub identities.

The problem is that these fringe identities claim to be India.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 06 Mar 2013 02:43

Theo_Fidel wrote:Hmm..

I have always thought that the real failure of secularism in India is its inability to give young hindu's a sense of power. Hindu's are 85% of India and if they voted together they could overwhelm every other point of view.

Theo saar, I'll bite.

I do not think the "young hindu" wants "a sense of power". What they want is the politicians to stop appeasing minorities. Hindus do not need any special treatment from the government. Minorities do not need protection from Hindus. Show me real examples where Hindu philosophy is a threat to Christianity or Muslim. The philosophy of Christianity and Muslim is a direct threat to Hinduism.

Appeasement of the minorities has let to a situation where the tail is wagging the dog.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Mar 2013 02:44

Theo_Fidel wrote: Like I said it is up to the electorate....

My inside sources say NM got all Christian and Muslim Gujarati votes 100% in all past 3 elections. It is some Secular Hindus that did not vote for NM.

NM is 100% kosher/halal/baptized

Now S.TN can vote for NM.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Mar 2013 02:45

[quote="Theo_Fidel"][/quote]

You will get an idea of where it is coming from if you read Vivekananda and Aurobindo. The leftists hate both. In many debates with leftists my main point was just shouting "fascist, fascist" is not going to take you anywhere if you don't understand where it is coming from. On top of that the leftists have been peddling blatant lies as gospel truth similar to those who deny holocaust that too in the information age. I told them that you are going to loose the majority of the educated, aware population. The RSS is only going to grow. The minority concern is in terms of security and opportunity. If the RSS is able to maintain a secular polity from a Hindu perspective then I think most of the minority concerns will be taken care off.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Mar 2013 02:45

Suraj wrote:This is madrassa math conflating two different types of elections and systems. The BJP - not Modi - were elected with 48% of overall electorate in an assembly election. Obama was elected in a presidential system. Modi's personal win margin was 78% - 120K votes out of 154k polled in his constituency.

By that logic RG is thumping majority winner and has proven himself repeatedly as well. So why the angst. You either claim all of GJ all the time or you leave the door open to stuff like.

And now Modi wants to represent all of India right, (even though he has not explicitly said so and IMHO I think it is unlikely he will directly run) so we need to expand the pool right.

Still he is very popular in urban circles amongst Hindu's, and 48% vote is nothing to be sneezed at. Congress is ruling India with 32% vote IIRC, and this was considered a 'mandate'.

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 06 Mar 2013 02:51

Theo ji:

There is nothing implicitly wrong in being communal. The Catholic church is communal as is the Mullah of Jama Masjid as is the Kanchi Sankaracharya. The difference is they do not run for secular office. If they did they would be attacked quite viciously for their communal thought process.

By this logic, anybody who attends church or masjid prayers needs to be disqualified from running for any office. Because it makes them as communal as you claim Shri NaMo ji to be.

But what's the point? every TD or H feels he/she is entitled to call any Hindu communal but non-Hindus are oh so purer than driven snow.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Mar 2013 02:54

Theoji,

I have one question for you. How do you distinguish between the religious and the secular?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 06 Mar 2013 02:54

SwamyG wrote:
The BJP just did not rise in vacuum, INC was losing its sheen - its charismatic leaders were dying or gone, its hard and selfless workers associated with freedom struggle and the progress after Independence were going away, Indira Gandhi was getting authoritarian {Look at the excuse Rahul gives - his grand mother had to do things because of pressure and stuff...}. It is a generational thing, when one looks at period of say 400-500 years this happened slowly and for the better. Slow passing of the baton - so to speak.
One needs to learn to crawl and walk before one can run.

Actually, by "left" I meant the left "left" not INC. The nationalist camp has both BJP and INC supporters among NRIs and have worked together.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 06 Mar 2013 02:55

Theo_Fidel wrote: I have always thought that the real failure of secularism in India is its inability to give young hindu's a sense of power. Hindu's are 85% of India and if they voted together they could overwhelm every other point of view.

You are wrong now, if not earlier

Hindus should not need any special power nor perceived power. In a truly secular environment, the government will not interfere or help any particular religion. So if I want a temple for Muruga, it is my job to get one; if you want a Church for Mary it is up to you to get funds and build one. I would expect the government to stop funds from abroad spent for religious conversions and propagation.

What upsets many Hindus is not lack of any power, but lack of justice or fairness. Hindus are from the sub-continent, they do not expect special treatment or unfairness. They do not even expect undue advantage over others (its pluralism already offers that benefit). After Islamic and European rule that greatly impacted the Hindu way of life, after Independence the country has still not made real progress in secularism.

I see Modi as a secular, who would rightly enforce the separation of government and religion. Only when it is clearly separated can growth and welfare be inclusive. Nor Hindus, nor Muslims, nor Christians ityadi get first or second preferences when it comes to resources and opportunities. In the eyes of government and legal reasons - they have equal rights and duties. This is an area Modi seems to have excelled, and Congress has failed. A simple enough reason for Congress to go; not because Rahul is uneducated, unmarried, connected with a strong family or other things Modi's fanbois spew here and elsewhere.

Evaluate Modi and BJP on their performance and policies, Evaluate Rahul (or others) & INC on their performance and policies. The only fear minorities of India should have is would ascension of Modi cause mass bloodbath, massive forced religious conversions to Hinduism, will he destroy Churches and Mosques, will he spend billions building Temples, will Muslims and Christians become second-class citizens. I do not see anything in Modi, nor in Indian system that will allow such an individual to rule the country. So give Modi a chance to fairly contest the elections.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 06 Mar 2013 03:02

Theo_Fidel wrote:RSS hmm...

Well for one they wish to expunge the constitution of india. For two they are an explicitly communal organization. There nothing quite so openly communal yet politically powerful on the other side despite claims to the contrary.

I have a question. What is your opinion on the organizing role played by churches and church leaders during the Kudankulam protests? Do these count as overtly political acts by explicitly communal organizations? And if so, should it disqualify an member of these churches from aspiring to political office?

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Mar 2013 03:14

A question to everybody, are we feeding a troll? A cliche: One who pretends to sleep will never wake up.

First, Modi is irrelevant since nobody will vote for him (wrong, 3 times CM with near 2/3rd record majority). Second, Modi did not do anything since HDI in Gujarat is low and has significant mal nutrition. Even Gujarat women has "lower" participation in employment (wrong again, Kerala with high HDI has the worst women in employment participation). And now, RSS is communal (wrong again).

If I do not want to look beyond a person's religion irrespective of the merits of the person and his ability - who is more communal? Me or the person in question?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Mar 2013 03:21

vnmshyam wrote:I do not think the "young hindu" wants "a sense of power". What they want is the politicians to stop appeasing minorities. Hindus do not need any special treatment from the government. Minorities do not need protection from Hindus. Show me real examples where Hindu philosophy is a threat to Christianity or Muslim. The philosophy of Christianity and Muslim is a direct threat to Hinduism.
Appeasement of the minorities has let to a situation where the tail is wagging the dog.

I can agree with you in concept but how does one implement this. Appeasement is such a vague and loaded term. How do you define it? Ending appeasement is an exercise of power.

To do this you will have to change the constitution with a 2/3 majority. For instance 'freedom to propagate religion' will have to be removed. As will the 'issue' with the 'uniform civil code'. I'm not even going to mention 370. Hindu's are right in saying that we are 85% so our will should prevail, this is only possible through exercising power. The question always is what comes after. Lanka and TSP next door are sobering examples. Or take a look at what is happening in Egypt. The appeasement has spread all the way to allowing loudspeakers, allowing new places of worship, Haj subsidy, crosses or crescents on the sides of hills, burqa's, westernized names, even things like womens rights and child marriage. Where do you draw the line. Others rights at present will have to be taken away.

The problem is always the status quo favors one party or the other. And so must be changed.

With respect to the perceived civilization challenge I understand the angst. And I don't have anything good to say right now. You are right that the proselytizing church and islam are a challenge to the demographic balance in India. I have in the past mentioned how to fight back effectively. You must beat them at their game rather than thinking you should stop it. IMO hindu's are not willing to do what it takes to stop the game so you must join it. I have been roundly excoriated for saying that as well...

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Mar 2013 03:33

^What is wrong with Uniform Civil Code? It should be named actually "Womens rights bill". All follow Uniform Civil Code in US!

Added later: Another cliche' being resurrected above - Hindus are monsters.

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 06 Mar 2013 03:35

Albert Pinto ko dar kyun lagta hai? or Are there any legitimate reasons for the so-called minorities to be afraid of Shri Modi (I could broaden the scope by including RSS but lets leave it for later)

As SwamyG eloquently put it above, :

would ascension of Modi cause mass bloodbath, massive forced religious conversions to Hinduism, will he destroy Churches and Mosques, will he spend billions building Temples, will Muslims and Christians become second-class citizens

These are legitimate fears and most Hindus would come between any so-called Hindu who tries to do any of the above and the minorities (unlike the J & K Muslims who sometimes aided and abetted the thugs who forced the Kashmiri Pundits to leave their ancestral lands). The question is, is there any legitimate reason to suspect Shri Modi to harbor any such evil designs. And the evidence (opinions do not constitute evidence) is absolutely not there. On the contrary, there have been numerous stories (facts, not fiction like the ones concocted by the sikulars) to not only disprove it but to prove the opposite - that Shri Modi is truly secular as is envisioned by the original intent of the constitution. Moreover, any of the above would be grossly unconstitutional and will never pass any legislature.

Now we come to the interesting part. If the cause of fear is one or more of the following:

- that he would stop the foreign money that comes under various disguises and is used for the purpose of buying conversions or fomenting communal trouble
- that his policies would result into fewer and fewer conversions from the Hindu fold or might even reverse the flow
- that his policies would reverse the special privileges accorded to minorities
- that he would revert the ownership of temple funds back to the Hindus (taking them away from the Govt, thereby immensely bolstering the Hindu ability to counter the conversions)
- that he would press of the uniform civil code and an abolition of all the articles that accord a discriminatory status in favor of the minorities
- and so on

then my dear sir, we have a very fundamental disagreement.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 06 Mar 2013 04:06

Sushupti wrote:Falling dominoes: Yet another speaker pulls out from Wharton

Atul Nishar of Hexaware on Tuesday withdrew from the speakers' list at the Wharton India Economic Forum (WIEF) programme.

Read more at: http://news.oneindia.in/2013/03/05/fall ... 64591.html

WSJ's India columnist Sadanand Dhume has pulled out of the whartoon conference citing free-speech issues after the NM disinvite. I've looked down on Dhume as another brown sepoy with a shoulder chip who sells his 'desi' credentials to his western employers whilst acting all haughty and mighty with us browntrodden folks on here at home.

But this act of his, done on an instance of principle, has earned him my respect (FWIW, at least).

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Mar 2013 04:08

SwamyG,

To be fair I never said that about Modi and all this blood bath imagery did not come from me. My point is very limited. Modi has clearly said that he rules by the Indian constitution. I suspect if I met Modi I would like him immensely and we could even be friends. But I also suspect what happened in 2002 did not change him. He is still the old RSS type IMHO.
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Again you want your will be done and the constitution be re-written. How is that not an exercise of power. And I ask again where do you draw the line. If you want the minorities to support this I suspect you could sell it to chunks of them but no attempt is being made to do that. You want to do this unilaterally.

You have to see it from my point of view as well. At the very reptilian brain level there is fear of a Hindu-Muslim war. I prefer to turn everything into a India vs that problem rather than a muslim vs hindu thing.

Take the recent Hyderabad catastrophe. While everyone is baying for a muslim on hindu incident, a secular person will spin it into a Jihadists vs India incident. The latter we can win. The former can have no end.
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WRT Kundankulam the church very much made a mistake by stepping into a secular issue and I said so at the time. They should not do that. And I have made my displeasure known in my tiny way and the church has visibly apologized and pulled back. Are there abuses still, yes. But the community by and large does not support that role for the church. If they do I'm willing to step out and say the church is wrong for doing so as I did at the time.
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There seems to be a misconception that the constitution was written as an ‘appeasement’ machine. Nothing of the kind. It was and remains a compromise between all the different pulls and pushes of the many different groups of India. Remember the muslims wanted a separate electorate, they did not get that. The Christians wanted officially recognized religions of India, meaning religious text including hindu, christian & islamic texts would be guides for rule making. Not very far from the Sharia movement these days!! They did not get that either.

Now you may want to change it but think before doing it unilaterally....

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 06 Mar 2013 04:45

Theo_Fidel wrote:SwamyG,

<snip> Modi has clearly said that he rules by the Indian constitution. I suspect if I met Modi I would like him immensely and we could even be friends. But I also suspect what happened in 2002 did not change him. He is still the old RSS type IMHO.
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NaMo has followed only the rules of constitution since his rule as CM. No doubts about it. However you have suspicion regarding 2002.
" I was in Baroda during the riots treating patients- was doing my MD in medicine". I told my communist friend that congis will milk it for its worth and dump everything on BJP/NaMo. History was written soon after despite vehement protestations from my commie friend. Sonia came and visited muslim refugee camps but not HINDU refugee camps(nearly 40000) . This was and is a never a genocide. Soon a huge industry was built on making NaMO the hate person. Never has NaMo spoken against muslims or anyone. it was the congis led NGO cottage industry who make mockery of India and its institutions. subverted India inside out.
IOW congis do not follow the ideals of Indian constitution.

Again you want your will be done and the constitution be re-written. How is that not an exercise of power. And I ask again where do you draw the line. If you want the minorities to support this I suspect you could sell it to chunks of them but no attempt is being made to do that. You want to do this unilaterally.

You have to see it from my point of view as well. At the very reptilian brain level there is fear of a Hindu-Muslim war. I prefer to turn everything into a India vs that problem rather than a muslim vs hindu thing.
NaMo has never uttered about Hindu Muslim war or anything related to it. he has done everything to turn into Inda vs others like pakistan etc which is what you wanted honestly. however the congis and its paid media have done what your repitilian brain want- Hindu- muslim war.

Take the recent Hyderabad catastrophe. While everyone is baying for a muslim on hindu incident, a secular person will spin it into a Jihadists vs India incident. The latter we can win. The former can have no end.
The so called secular persons are calling everything Hindu Muslim incident.
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WRT Kundankulam the church very much made a mistake by stepping into a secular issue and I said so at the time. They should not do that. And I have made my displeasure known in my tiny way and the church has visibly apologized and pulled back. Are there abuses still, yes. But the community by and large does not support that role for the church. If they do I'm willing to step out and say the church is wrong for doing so as I did at the time.
church keep doing what it does, it never stops. apology is nothing to church. It is all fooling the others.
I have had some experience in the handling of the church and its followers. I can keep posting them similar to your stuff.

Theo, you are dishonest reading many of your posts.
these tactics and by many others who bring no logic in arguing for or against NaMo makes many fence sitters jump to NaMo.