The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

[RajeshA]

On Nature of Power

In Indian history, we have seen various systems of governance, from national level to the local level, and the issue of how to regulate power is something that we in India have dwelled upon, and has been an eternal subject of discussion throughout human society and human history. One is always looking for ways of how to regulate powers better!

In India some of the PM have held tremendous amount of power, while others have had little power.

What is the UPA Model for Power?

1. Lately Congress has developed a model in which power resides in the Family which is seen by all in the Congress as the only means of cohesion of the platform and thus the only means for provision of power of the various individual power centers.
2. The Family has extended this model to outside the party, where Congress is then seen as the necessary glue for the cohesion of various disparate parties based on individual charisma of their leaders. For this model to work, Congress naturally has to produce the biggest chunk of power in Parliament in order to build a coalition around it.
3. The Family has developed a unique form of power - Power through Renunciation of Power. Sonia Gandhi had her moment on May 17, 2004 when she declined the position of PM. Rahul Gandhi had his moment lately in AICC Chintan Shivir in Jaipur on Jan 30, 2013 when he pronounced "Power is Poison". It means finding a person to sit as PM who owns his position exclusively to the Family, who acts as the Face of Power for the People of India but where all the power-holders know that real power lies with the Family. Thus one has all the power and no responsibility. If the PM becomes unpopular one day, he can be replaced easily with another "Responsible Technocrat" without any own power base.
   
   
   
   
   
   So what they are renouncing is not Power, but rather only the Face of Power and thus Responsibility.
4. What is that then what the Family provides to all its power centers? Mostly it is freedom from persecution on real or trumped up charges by the various "intelligence agencies" IB, CBI, etc. which they control. Secondly the Congress allows these power centers to not come in the cross-fire from media, again an institution which is controlled by Family's hangers on. Thirdly it provides access to funds, by being in power - i.e. corruption. So even if corruption is exposed, and some power centers have to take the brunt of public ire, and new power centers arising from this would again have to turn to the Family in order to avail of the resources of the country, naturally for a cut.
5. Another spoke of power is actually by entering into a trade of power with other world powers and their power elites. On the one side this has to do with keeping all other powers happy, so that none targets the Family, e.g. for assassination or malignment/defamation. Secondly it has to do with foreign powers being able to provide channels for washing black money generated through corruption, as well as hoarding of looted cash.
6. Still another form of power which the Family has started to use is that of providing ever more access to foreign missionaries to the the population. We have seen the Family warm up to the Saudis, where we had Al Sudais visiting Deoband. We have Christians missionaries trying to wean away Dalits to Christianity. Basically it is a strategy of putting the religious leadership of various communities in the firm hands of outsiders, so that through the Family's dealings with these outsiders, the outsiders can then through their religious management of various communities in India ensure vote banks for the Congress.

Now even if this sounds like a litany of complaints against the Family, basically it is a way to understand how POWER works, and how it is possible to put up generally respected but powerless people into positions of power and to control them from outside.

Power would always reside with those who crave for power and know how to translate that craving and there will always be a multitude of such people. One can't really stop that. That is how it is.

Our effort should be directed at

1. The Face of Power should be the Center of Power as far as possible.
2. This Power should have a very concrete enduring responsibility: to the people, to society, to Rashtra and to Civilization (PSRC)
3. There should be a system in place which can truthfully assesses what are the current challenges to PSRC and how well this power has implemented its enduring responsibility and faced these challenges.
4. The system should allow the survival and emergence of Multiple Candidates for Center of Power.
5. There should be a system in place which allows a different Center of Power to be chosen from among the Candidates if PSRC are not satisfied.

Another question is how to create this People+Society+Rashtra+Civilization entity whose service becomes the primary objective and responsibility of this Center of Power!

[RajeshA]

On Nature of Power

Published on Mar 08, 2013
Rahul’s dubious renunciation

Hark back to May 2004, when the Italy-born Sonia Gandhi gave up the prime minister’s job. Her ‘sacrifice’ was then hailed by Congress persons of all denomination.

However, 2013 is not 2004, and even authorized Congress spokespersons, like Sandeep Dikshit, do not take the young heir apparent Rahul Gandhi’s renunciation of the prime ministerial job seriously. They insist that he will lead the campaign, and then an appropriate decision would be taken after the results are known. Surely, the Congress Party is also fed up with this kind of backseat driving, where the prime minister is in office, but does not wield the authority. There are many leaders in the party who believe that the poor public perception of the UPA-2 government’s performance is partly rooted in this duality. But all these grudges aside, to be sure, the Sonia-Manmohan division of labour between political authority and administrative responsibility has paid handsome dividends. The BJP would have made “mincemeat of a ‘foreign born’ prime minister. But then Sonia Gandhi’s astute renunciation deprived them of this opportunity. Then in retrospect, the combine not only survived the strains of a coalition for five years, but also got a renewed mandate. So borrowing from his mother’s rewarding experience, Rahul could be tempted to find a ‘Manmohan’ for himself, and thus his renunciation of the prime ministerial chair is seen more as an escape route, and less of a sacrifice. Besides, the less charitable explanation for this ‘ no prime minister’s post for me’ stance is that the heir apparent of the Congress party is quite unwilling to get into the political pugilistic ring, lest he should be badly mauled by verbal assaults from the putative BJP challenger Narendra Modi.

However, this suggestion that he is unwilling for a fight would only evoke howls of protest from his loyalists, and they would rush to insulate him from any critical barbs. But his vulnerability shows. All this however betrays some element of strategic planning, however flawed it may be. But no such thinking seems to have gone into his public pledge of not “marrying.” He has reasoned that by marrying and fathering children, he would be a “status quoist.” Because it follows that his children would come into politics, and thus he would be a promoter of dynastic politics, which he does not want to be. In this respect, he is treading an unnatural path. His vow of remaining single sounds almost like the Bhishma’s pledge to remain unmarried, all for the wrong reasons- as the great warrior also did not want his children to enter the succession battle. We all know the Mahabharata tale too well, and also are aware of the consequences that flowed from it. With the most eligible bachelor in India, the possible next prime minister, despite his protestations, preferring to remain single, the consequences cannot be desirable. No one will quarrel with his contention that the high command culture in the Congress needs to go, but then perhaps the young man has not fully grasped the essence of dynastic politics in the Indian society. In this society, it is common for a doctor’s son to be a doctor or a lawyer’s son to follow his father’s footsteps. But then success in any profession is not assured merely on the basis of this dynastic succession. It has to be earned through hard work and skills. Rahul Gandhi too, is mistaken, if he believes that he will succeed in Indian politics merely because of the Gandhi name. Indeed, from personal experience he knows that the family magic did not work in Uttar Pradesh last year. Besides, his mother too had to earn it the hard way, and before that his grandmother also had to earn the respect that she got. Otherwise, in her early days, she was just a ‘goongi gudiya’ as the Congress Syndicate used to call her. Then he should be also aware that there are many sons and daughters of illustrious politicians who are now nobodys. Just look at the children of the former prime ministers – Lal Bahadur Shastri or P V Narasimha Rao – both of them lauded generously by the opposition – but none of their children have attained any durable status in politics. By presuming that dynastic politics will change simply because he does not marry is quite an incorrect formulation. Indeed, dynastic politics in the Congress would fail, if he fails to deliver in the long run, then whether he is married or single, will not matter. So, whether he becomes prime minister or not, Rahul Gandhi should not disappoint the fairer sex and choose a partner for life.

So what they are renouncing is not Power, but rather only the Face of Power and thus Responsibility.

[RajeshA]

Polarization not just on communities - but based on the ideals and principles

B Ji, i have been routing for that since months. Yet the provocation, confrontation and polarization that most seek is purely on superficial constructs like ritual, culture, habit. That same sense comes through when Shiv Ji said in the Islamism thread:

Burqas are not a problem. Opposing burqas in my view is like not objecting to garbage being thrown in your backyard except for plastic items. You put up with all the stinking garbage but have a hissy fit because plastic appears with the garbage and then say "I am banning plastic in garbage thrown in my garden"

Yet that understanding is a matter of evolution. And in a society or group it is not simple to get through. Yet also, by going full hog into the superficial constructs type of polarization lie great dangers.

harbans ji,

Actually it is a very good example that you bring forth, but an example which actually weakens your arguments for values.

In India one sees Muslims with full beards, topis, shalwar kameez, burqas etc. That doesn't really bother anybody in India, not even the orthodox Hindus. One is well aware of the superficiality of all this even though one is also aware that the dress makes a statement about one's social, religious and political leanings!

The European case of protesting against burqa use is based on a very different premise. They consider it as an epitome of women's subjugation in Islam. This is against their values of women's equality, women's emancipation, etc. So they take the burqa and make it an issue.

It has little to do with ritual, culture or habit. For all that Europeans are actually quite liberal and tolerant.

Western society because of its own foundation in Christianity is simply not really capable of doing a good Purva-Paksha of Islam, because many ills one finds in Islam one would also find in Christianity. On the issue of women's rights, Europeans feel that they have a strong difference with Islam so they can take it up, but then again that is looking for superficial differences in "values". Europeans refuse to make the hard determinations - Islam as a system is not amenable to integration, it has a separate system of power, allegiance and civilizational basis which manifests itself in different memes, rules, goals, strategies, organizations, politics, etc. The values in Islamic society are such that these need to support these requirements. Difference in dressing come much lower down the line of fundamental issues.

[chetak]

Received by email.

Could this be true?

Our national anthem, 'Jana Gana Mana', is sung throughout the country.

Did you know the following about it?

'Jana Gana Mana' was written by Rabindranath Tagore in honour of King George V and his Queen when they visited India in 1919.

To mark their visit, Pandit Motilal Nehru had five stanzas included that are in praise of the King and Queen.

In the original Bengali verses only those provinces that were under British rule, i.e., Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, Maratha, were mentioned.

None of the princely states, which are integral parts of India now, such as Kashmir, Rajasthan, Andhra, Mysore and Kerala, was recognized.

Neither the Indian Ocean nor the Arabian Sea was included because they were directly under Portuguese rule at that time.

'Jana Gana Mana' implies that King George V is the lord of the masses and Bharata Bhagya Vidhata, or 'the bestower of good fortune'.

Here is a translation of the five stanzas that glorify the King.



Stanza 1: The (Indian) people wake up remembering your good name and ask for your blessings and they sing your glories...

Tava shubha name jaage; tava shubha aashish maage, gaaye tava jaya gaatha)

Stanza 2: Around your throne, people of all religions come and give their love and anxiously wait to hear your kind words.

Stanza 3: Praise to the King for being the charioteer, for leading the ancient travellers beyond misery.

Stanza 4: Drowned in deep ignorance and suffering, is this poverty stricken, unconscious country. It is waiting for the wink of your eye and our mother's

(the Queen's) true protection.

Stanza 5: In your compassionate plans, the sleeping Bharat (India) will wake up.

We bow down to your feet, O Queen, and glory to the King...Rajeshwara


This whole poem does not indicate any love for the Motherland, but depicts a bleak picture of it.
When you sing 'Jana Gana Mana', whom are you glorifying?
Certainly not the Motherland. Is it God? The poem does not indicate that.
It is time now to understand the original purpose and implication of this, rather than blindly singing it as has been done for the past 60 years.

Maybe we should shift to 'Vande Mataram' or 'Saare Jahan Se Achcha', which are far better compositions in praise of India.

BE PROUD TO BE INDIAN.

[RajeshA]

chetak ji,

the whole controversy about "Jana Gana Mana" is summarized on Wikipedia.

[chetak]

chetak ji,

the whole controversy about "Jana Gana Mana" is summarized on Wikipedia.

RajeshA ji,

Many thanks.

[harbans]

They consider it as an epitome of women's subjugation in Islam. This is against their values of women's equality, women's emancipation, etc. So they take the burqa and make it an issue.

Rajesh Ji this is what i am saying and have been saying for long. All confrontations are not superficials but value based ones in reality. Most people if you find are arguing on the superficial aspects of Burkha banning, whereas the real conflict is on values such as you stated above. So it's not that my culture and ritual is my way, it is much deeper than that. It is my values in my country and not Arabic values in my country. My values in my country i say are Dharmic and these are universal. Arabic values in my country are not universal etc. So while people will mostly associate with events, issues, ritual, etc, the real conflicts actually lie deeper in doctrine, principles and value systems. That is exactly what i have been trying to say for a long time now. That is why i say through highlighting such, we make the polarization/ provocation at a deeper level clear, but ironically at a superficial level everyone thinks oh Truth and Compassion et al are also what i want. Thus the superificial thinking moderates of excuvist ideologies will start welcoming value based initiative, while deeper realizing mullahs will know what it entails. The conflict then is not excluvist vs Dharma, but the superficial moderate excluvist who agrees with these principles vs the entrenched mullah. The might and determination of the State to uphold such is what counts as success. That is all. QED.

[RajeshA]

Do you realize that restricting money alone does not restrict the power to damage or get monetary transactions done to favour significant others?

Presumes again that greed even if overcome for the self will be compromised by the same entity to benefit significant others. Let us presume that some would, Conflict of interest based checks are quite simple things to legislate and execute. The self sacrifices are in addition. What is wrong with it?

Take the Varna label out and then answer the question. Would you support the idea of wealth holding limits enforced by those who wield power? Would you support the idea that those who take state support to invest in knowledge, should be barred from most positions of power? Would you support the idea of someone with wealth barred from the ability to influence those in power?

As far as I understand, your model is

• philanthropy - sacrifice of wealth,
• contribution to the knowledge base of the Rashtra, and
• military service

should give people access to Power. The model is based on a system of appreciating character, contribution and sacrifice and this system should prevent Abuse of Power. The model is built around an ancient concept of Varna to give it legitimacy.

[RajeshA]

Dharmocracy

ShauryaT ji,

An Alternative Model
can be based on fragmentation of and competition among power centers, so that they cannot limit or otherwise manipulate the power to choose the primary center and face of power, which is to lie with the people, who empowered through education and information, have been prepared to better appreciate the interests of the Rashtra and Sabhyata.

When I speak of power centers, I refer to "Big Money", "Big Religious Cults", "Big Media Houses" and "Big Paramilitaries".

Also what is important is that the system should try to create ever more power centers, i.e. more and more people who are not apparently associated with the power centers should be facilitated by the system to come up, and these new people should be given real power through direct mandates by people rather than through any connections they may have with existing power centers.

This is important so that the power centers do not build a closed system, an elite system which nobody else can enter. One would have to be especially cautious about progeny of existing power centers. They would have to prove their worth on the basis of their own work.

[Atri]

I think Jana gana Mana is addressed to Shri Krishna..

The references to "Chira-Saarathi" (eternal charioteer) blowing counch-shell (Shankhadhwani) in the midst of war (daaruno biplobo majhe) is clear reference to Krishna blowing Paanchajanya in Kurukshetra is a dead give away.. Shri Krishna is the Bhaarata Bhagya Vidhata in the song...

[ShauryaT]

The model is based on a system of appreciating character, contribution and sacrifice and this system should prevent Abuse of Power. The model is built around an ancient concept of Varna to give it legitimacy.

The model is based on the system of SD which teaches us the control of power, wealth and knowledge represented as Devi Durga, Lakshmi and Sarasvati is in the best interests of society. It seeks inspiration from Sri Krishna's command as represented in chapter 4, stanza 13. It is based on the SD belief that Varna is not only psychological and metaphysical but also has a social aspect. Its objective is to build a religious society premised on SD's experiences that the individual is part of a larger cosmic unity and like many beings, man is a social being and as part of this social environment needs rules, structures and systems to operate in (to that extent we are assuming the role of prajapatis, at least on this thread ).

While fully acknowledging the mistakes of the past with the detoriation of the system of Varnas into a system of jatis and close hereditary qualifiers in certain ages, which were unnatural and a weakness, it asserts that the fundamental truths of the system are unalterable and it is up to each age to make use of the embodied truths of SD to achieve the objectives, which are rooted in satyam, ritam and yagnam. VarnaAshrama dharma is our civilization heritage and it cannot be ignored. So, in a way, what I am saying is nothing new, it is rooted in the past.

RajeshA ji: I will be open to any model, which are inspired from SD civilization richness and keeps its objectives front and center. Unfortunately, in all your good intentioned posts, I have not found that connection, yet.

As for B ji: Beyond, the very well known issues surrounding caste, jatis and varnas, which he views as prime and center that wrecked the nation, at this point, it is unto him to determine what from SD's civilizational heritage, he wants as part of the future. I am not blind to the issues that caste created in society, but am not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[RajeshA]

RajeshA ji: I will be open to any model, which are inspired from SD civilization richness and keeps its objectives front and center. Unfortunately, in all your good intentioned posts, I have not found that connection, yet.

ShauryaT ji,

My concept of Dharmic comes from a very fundamental concept in Sanatan Dharma which includes the Aastikmat, Bauddhmat, Jainamat and Sikhmat.

Anybody who considers that the Atma has intrinsic capacity for direct access to the Supreme, without requiring the intervention of any self-proclaimed intermediary, is a Dharmic.

I went into quite some detail of how everything derives from that.

As far as Varna is concerned, I am of the view that Purusha Sutra has nothing to do with division of society, and the philosophical study of nature of consciousness led our rishis to conclude that the consciousness (Purusha) is a union of Brahmin (intellect/creativity), Kshatriya (decision), Vaisya (self-awareness/self-interest) and Shudra (application/affect), and other thinkers decided to apply that to society, certainly a legitimate effort but also dependent on lower complexity of society, a luxury we do not have today. The system ossified in a way it was not intended with hierarchy and heredity of Varna becoming the norm.

I also think that those who seek divine sanction for such divisions in society are acting contrary to the spirit of Sanatan Dharma and they are either swimming with the legacy opinion without giving it any independent thought or are complicit in a huge scam trying to distort Sanatan Dharma to suit their jāti interests.

The aim of Sanatan Dharma is to activate the intrinsic capacity of Atma to attain the Supreme. It is universal in its scope, valid for a every single human being or any being of a high consciousness. There can be no discrimination in this regard. Sanatan Dharma is completely egalitarian and aims to empower every individual.

What you speak of is an application of some concepts of Sanatan Dharma (Purusha), initially by well-intentioned people, which got distorted, and you wish to make the distortion the standard of Sanatan Dharma!!

So I am afraid, your model is just not compatible with spirit of Sanatan Dharma, only tries to recycle its distortions. I would accept it if it was otherwise!

It is based on the SD belief that Varna is not only psychological and metaphysical but also has a social aspect.

That was an extrapolation experiment but turned out into a distortion of the spirit of Sanatan Dharma. This experiment has however no scriptural legitimacy.

While fully acknowledging the mistakes of the past with the deterioration of the system of Varnas into a system of jatis and close hereditary qualifiers in certain ages, which were unnatural and a weakness, it asserts that the fundamental truths of the system are unalterable and it is up to each age to make use of the embodied truths of SD to achieve the objectives, which are rooted in satyam, ritam and yagnam. VarnaAshrama dharma is our civilization heritage and it cannot be ignored. So, in a way, what I am saying is nothing new, it is rooted in the past.

The deterioration of the system of Varnas happened because when applied on society as social divisions the ritam of this application was deterioration. It could not have resulted in any other outcome!

It is time to say that the Varnas as social divisions have outlived their usefulness, and it is best to look at them in their original meaning.

Deprecating Varnas (as social divisions) would restore the Satyam, Ritam and Yagnam of Sanatan Dharma.

[brihaspati]

ShauryaT ji,
I have two sides to my thinking: on one side, a rational, skeptical side does not have any implicit trust in the "goodness" of the general human spirit. Some seem to be born with "goodness", but its a rare quality. Thus relying on the inherent goodness of the ruling class chosen on the basis of exterior symbols like what is deemed to be a "sacrifice" etc, will always converge along material and dominance pleasure maximizing.

I have problems with this very idea of "sacrifice" : if you say that politicians are "sacrificing" by giving up "pursuit of wealth" and hence they need to be compensated for it by both dominance and material well-being. This means you are not actually delegitimizing the very concept of enjoyment of material pleasures as a core and supreme goal of life. As far as my understanding of SD goes - material satisfaction pursuits are not seen as the highest end-goal. Material wealth is for moving mountains for others - and not for self. SD proposes material pursuits for the benefit of the many - the society, and not for self. For self the goal is knowledge and understanding, ever-increasing towards hopefully complete submergence in complete knowledge.

The key concept being missed is that - power and material wealth should be sought for the benefit of others, and not for self. In that mode only, even BG makes sense - that lies, "shathata" [not merely deception], or tactically inhumane moves - are only undertaken for the larger good of society and not for self. Even pursuit of power and wealth is okay as long as they are for using then in favour of others and the largest possible proportion of the society.

Now if the society does not believe in this, then they will value wealth and power for the sake of wealth and power - whether they have achieved wealth or power or are merely driven by jealousy and competition to seek wealth and power. Overall, this associates esteem with wealth and power.

Power and wealth is valuable only because those who do not have them - value them and want them. We need to create an atmosphere where seeking personal power and wealth for personal consumption onlee, has to be socially condemned, and produces lowering of social esteem and not the other way around.

If you say what are the lessons I want form SD to be carried into teh future - this is one of them. My emotional and mystical side wants naama-sankeertana, and a flood to wipe away all the sectarianisms. I originated in so-called elite, but I have never belonged there. I was like fish in water with atavikas, and "antyajas", as well as gurus/ashramiks/saadhaks. I find myself at home in the remote forest or mountain-side jhopri and people who struggle to even get some decent food for the "atith" when I visit them. If one does not have that feeling of oneness with the land and its poorest or simplest, no SD will move forward.

The ideal "powerful" probably should not have family and even if a wife or husband - no next generation. The ruler should not have attachments that can hold him/her back. This is not about "sacrifices".

[ShauryaT]

The deterioration of the system of Varnas happened because when applied on society as social divisions the ritam of this application was deterioration. It could not have resulted in any other outcome!

It is time to say that the Varnas as social divisions have outlived their usefulness, and it is best to look at them in their original meaning.

Deprecating Varnas (as social divisions) would restore the Satyam, Ritam and Yagnam of Sanatan Dharma.

I do not think you realize it, but you are calling our entire civilization to be constructed by a bunch of idiots who got Purusha sukta and human nature wrong. This is certainly not my read and not something I share. If you have not done so, please do a detail read of where, how, when, what went wrong in the application of Varna dharma, instead of a broad stroke. Also, do read how many shastras are there that enforce VarnAshrma dharma as the cornerstone of SD. No educated "dharmic" can make such a broad statement as you have done above. It upholds the principle of greed as the underlying driving force as human nature, but I do not think you realize it.

As for your definition of dharmic, I will not even begin to comment about it - how ill informed it sounds. I really do not have to time to go through and respond all all your theories there but P.C. Kane has the history of Dharma Shatras well documented or read Shanti Parvah, which is available online, Please do pick it up and read, before making such broad statements.

[ShauryaT]

ShauryaT ji,
I have two sides to my thinking: on one side, a rational, skeptical side does not have any implicit trust in the "goodness" of the general human spirit. Some seem to be born with "goodness", but its a rare quality. Thus relying on the inherent goodness of the ruling class chosen on the basis of exterior symbols like what is deemed to be a "sacrifice" etc, will always converge along material and dominance pleasure maximizing.

B ji: Inherent goodness can be secured only with the help of rules and its enforcement. I never said anything about implicit trust. 4.13 talks about works - that have to be demonstrated. I really do not care, how one is born and where, like satyakama.

I have problems with this very idea of "sacrifice" : if you say that politicians are "sacrificing" by giving up "pursuit of wealth" and hence they need to be compensated for it by both dominance and material well-being. This means you are not actually delegitimizing the very concept of enjoyment of material pleasures as a core and supreme goal of life. As far as my understanding of SD goes - material satisfaction pursuits are not seen as the highest end-goal. Material wealth is for moving mountains for others - and not for self. SD proposes material pursuits for the benefit of the many - the society, and not for self. For self the goal is knowledge and understanding, ever-increasing towards hopefully complete submergence in complete knowledge.

From a SD prism, How can one have issues with yagna, I do not follow. The goals for sajjan are well defined in the PuruSharthas. Just because they get the tag of a kshatriya based on their sacrifice, does not automatically mean dominance and loss of all other checks and balances by "others". It is a way to ensure, people who have sacrificed are respected and honored and valued - it does not have to translate to dominance, but I understand if you remain unconvinced.

The key concept being missed is that - power and material wealth should be sought for the benefit of others, and not for self. In that mode only, even BG makes sense - that lies, "shathata" [not merely deception], or tactically inhumane moves - are only undertaken for the larger good of society and not for self. Even pursuit of power and wealth is okay as long as they are for using then in favour of others and the largest possible proportion of the society.

BG's central focus is on Moksha. It is attachment that prevents someone from being truly free. MKG got the message of BG right, he did his Karma of being a politician but without attachments. But it is not easy for all to do what you ask and do what MKG did and live like he did - without attachments. It is the reason, he is revered as the Mahatma.
People will pursue on various paths. An ABV will be life long bhrahmashari and pursue the path of a Kshatriya - never pursuing wealth. There has to be a way to recognize this mode of yagna and a better way in our society to respect and value these. When an ABV is classified in the same category as a Laloo, something seems unfair and a valuable contribution to society is lost. There are many lesser known ABV types in society.

Now if the society does not believe in this, then they will value wealth and power for the sake of wealth and power - whether they have achieved wealth or power or are merely driven by jealousy and competition to seek wealth and power. Overall, this associates esteem with wealth and power.

Power and wealth is valuable only because those who do not have them - value them and want them. We need to create an atmosphere where seeking personal power and wealth for personal consumption onlee, has to be socially condemned, and produces lowering of social esteem and not the other way around.

To a degree, this is exactly what Ashrama dharma is for. Someone, who has provided a life long sacrifice can be respected more?

If you say what are the lessons I want form SD to be carried into teh future - this is one of them. My emotional and mystical side wants naama-sankeertana, and a flood to wipe away all the sectarianisms. I originated in so-called elite, but I have never belonged there. I was like fish in water with atavikas, and "antyajas", as well as gurus/ashramiks/saadhaks. I find myself at home in the remote forest or mountain-side jhopri and people who struggle to even get some decent food for the "atith" when I visit them. If one does not have that feeling of oneness with the land and its poorest or simplest, no SD will move forward.

The ideal "powerful" probably should not have family and even if a wife or husband - no next generation. The ruler should not have attachments that can hold him/her back. This is not about "sacrifices".

What can I say B ji, you want the onset of another yug. But, thanks for the responses, your ideals are way too high for mere mortals, I feel, very few will be able to attain them.

Each of our law givers, from Prajapatis down to major ones like Yagnavalkya, Narda, Brihapati, Chankya's treats on raj dharma, Shanti Pravah - a read of them suggest, treatises written for their times and their places. I really can have no issue with the ideals, you have set, but do doubt if they can be achieved in our age.

You seem to be saying all or nothing. I think, SD tradition recognizes various shades between black and white and hence gives four colors.

[Pranav]

I do not think you realize it, but you are calling our entire civilization to be constructed by a bunch of idiots who got Purusha sukta and human nature wrong. This is certainly not my read and not something I share. If you have not done so, please do a detail read of where, how, when, what went wrong in the application of Varna dharma, instead of a broad stroke. Also, do read how many shastras are there that enforce VarnAshrma dharma as the cornerstone of SD. No educated "dharmic" can make such a broad statement as you have done above. It upholds the principle of greed as the underlying driving force as human nature, but I do not think you realize it.

As for your definition of dharmic, I will not even begin to comment about it - how ill informed it sounds. I really do not have to time to go through and respond all all your theories there but P.C. Kane has the history of Dharma Shatras well documented or read Shanti Parvah, which is available online, Please do pick it up and read, before making such broad statements.

What went wrong was the disconnect of Varna from its foundation of Tri-Guna Prakriti.

[RamaY]

Whether we accept/believe Varna system or not, we will be guided by our internal Varna consciousness.

It is up to us to decide whether it is better to accept what we are and stay what we are OR pretend to be someone/something for some tactical/strategic results.

Both are fine as long as we know what we are doing.

[Pranav]

I never said anything about implicit trust. 4.13 talks about works - that have to be demonstrated. I really do not care, how one is born and where, like satyakama.

This is a narrow view ... what about a Self-realized individual working as a cobbler. You are confining yourself to gross outward behaviors, which disconnects Varna from its foundations.

[brihaspati]

ShauryaT ji
You were looking for visions and ideals. If we don't have ideals, we have no scale to measure achievements in the interim and in-between. I too realize the practicalities - and perhaps am skeptical and critical about implementations out of that very pragmatism. I know what I ams uggesting is too difficult for most - and hence all the more important to have those as objectives, ideals to be sought for. We establish the practice of esteeming people in proportion to those ideals being followed. Thus maintaining a constant pressure of social mores to be not deviated too much from.

[ShauryaT]

What went wrong was the disconnect of Varna from its foundation of Tri-Guna Prakriti.

Fundamentally, yes. However, that statement was more in the context of how things changed. The biggest of all changes was the "environment" and the value systems that Harbans ji, never fails to talk about .

The degradation of the value system was much longer - even before Islam's advent, this much is clear from buddha's times. Dayananda Sarasvati has a very perceptive thought on that issue in the Satyarth Prakash:

“When the Braahmans became destitute of knowledge, there could be no talk of the ignorance of the Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shoodras. Even the ancient practice of the study of the Vedas and other Shaastras with their meanings died away. The Braahmans only learnt the Vedas by note - just enough to enable them to earn their livelihood. Even that much they did teach to the Kshatriyas, and others.
As the ignorant became the teachers of the people, deceitfulness, fraud, hypocrisy, and irreligion began to increase among them. The Braahmans thought that they should make some arrangement for their livelihood. They held a council among themselves and agreed to preach to the Kshatriyas and others: "We alone are the object of worship to you. You could never enter Heaven or obtain salvation except by serving us. Should you not serve us, you shall fall into an awful Hell."

Sri Aurobindo has similar critiques of Sayana, the last known compiler of the vedas with an over emphasis on the Brahmanas.

The environmental impacts was bought in with the onset of Islam and then into a tailspin with the onset of British rule. KS Lal has documented this effect in his two books quite well, along with others such as Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel.

[ShauryaT]

I never said anything about implicit trust. 4.13 talks about works - that have to be demonstrated. I really do not care, how one is born and where, like satyakama.

This is a narrow view ... what about a Self-realized individual working as a cobbler. You are confining yourself to gross outward behaviors, which disconnects Varna from its foundations.

No, I am not disassociating Varna from its foundations in works.

A self realized cobbler will pursue his SwaDharma, fulfill his puruSharthas, pursue his Ashramas and live the life of a Karma Yogi as B ji described. The effect of his works on society will be that of a Cobbler. Self realization is the goal for all in SD, so what is different?

[Pranav]

A self realized cobbler will pursue his SwaDharma, fulfill his puruSharthas, pursue his Ashramas and live the life of a Karma Yogi as B ji described. The effect of his works on society will be that of a Cobbler. Self realization is the goal for all in SD, so what is different?

Right, you want to classify people regardless of their state of evolution, and focus only on the grossest externalities.

As you mentioned, you are perfectly happy to worshipfully wash the feet of a so-called "Brahmana" who may be outwardly chanting Mantras but inwardly fantasizing about every kind of sensual indulgence.

That is what disconnects Varna from its foundation of Tri-Guna Prakriti.

[ShauryaT]

As you mentioned, you are very happy to worshipfully wash the feet of a so-called "Brahmana" who may be outwardly chanting Mantras but inwardly fantasizing about every kind of sensual indulgence.

That is what disconnects Varna from its foundation of Tri-Guna Prakriti.

Ha ha, quote me fully - you will see that what I said is impossible for someone to achieve. Anyways, Pranav ji, I will retire for the day.

[devesh]

it is a mistake to think that BG is about Moksha.

BG is about Karma. the process of Karma. and the attitude of Karma. it is all about process, process, process. in fact, Krishna explicitly says to forget about the end result of "Karma yoga". that is his avenue to judge the yogi. the yogi himself is unconcerned about Moksha. for him, the very Karma he undergoes is both "a-mruta" and "ya-u-ga".

if the "followers" and "students" of BG start thinking that BG is about Moksha, they've missed the point entirely. Moksha is the phalita of yoga. and BG's commandment is explicit: DO NOT think of the phalita; it is out of YOUR control. that is my purview. your's is only yoga. the process.

[RajeshA]

The deterioration of the system of Varnas happened because when applied on society as social divisions the ritam of this application was deterioration. It could not have resulted in any other outcome!

It is time to say that the Varnas as social divisions have outlived their usefulness, and it is best to look at them in their original meaning.

Deprecating Varnas (as social divisions) would restore the Satyam, Ritam and Yagnam of Sanatan Dharma.

I do not think you realize it, but you are calling our entire civilization to be constructed by a bunch of idiots who got Purusha sukta and human nature wrong.

I do realize it in fact.

What you perhaps do not realize is that the global forces are intent on convincing Indians that we need to throw out the baby with the bathwater in which the baby happened to defecate.

What you are saying is that the baby should defecate a bit more, and we need to preserve the excreta, for otherwise what use is the baby if not for excreting.

But the Indians are willing to move on. All those masses who were brought up on the Mantra of Oonch-Neech, Karmon ka Phal, Bhagya, etc. are hardly willing to put up with the Varnic social hierarchy. They have been forced for ages to keep their noses underwater.

So either one removes the water, takes out the feces, clean the bathtub, pour in new water, and let the SD baby in again gently, or you will see those masses willing to move to other bathtubs with no baby but at least perfumed feces.

Sorry for the analogy, but one needs to get a taste of the PoV of the masses.

This is certainly not my read and not something I share. If you have not done so, please do a detail read of where, how, when, what went wrong in the application of Varna dharma, instead of a broad stroke.

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand the intrinsic aspirations of the human spirit!

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand man's love for his progeny!

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to appreciate the rajasik and tamasik aspects of man and their consequences!

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to appreciate the strengths of alien ideologies.

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed in its duty to the Supreme, to impart Brahma Jñāna to each Ātman.

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand the prerequisites for a society to be full of vitality and be driven by merit.

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand that any hierarchy breeds more hierarchy and contempt is simply passed on to the lower level on and on and on, fracturing Rashtriya fraternity. Instead of expanding fraternity horizontally, Varna Dharma fractures the fraternity vertically.

Also, do read how many shastras are there that enforce VarnAshrma dharma as the cornerstone of SD. No educated "dharmic" can make such a broad statement as you have done above. It upholds the principle of greed as the underlying driving force as human nature, but I do not think you realize it.

If Shastras cannot be defended by Śhruti, they need to be revised. They don't have any independent authority giving them immunity from critique!

As for your definition of dharmic, I will not even begin to comment about it - how ill informed it sounds.

It is your privilege whether you wish to comment on something or not. You had written

If you know of a better model which secures the principles of satyam, ritam and yagnam and a way to use knowledge, wealth and power for the greater good (as defined above) then please share.

so I shared. But I cannot know what bothers you in the suggestion unless you make an effort to analyze and explain. But if you feel uncomfortable doing so, which I think I understand, there is of course no pressure.

I really do not have to time to go through and respond all all your theories there but P.C. Kane has the history of Dharma Shatras well documented or read Shanti Parvah, which is available online, Please do pick it up and read, before making such broad statements.

If there is something from Shanti Parva you wish to discuss do post it!

[RajeshA]

Dharmic Demographic Agenda

One of the reasons probably why the census 2011 is not being published is because of the increase in Muslim population that it will show!

Published on Mar 02, 2013
India’s Muslims: Growing, and neglected: The Economist

An official analysis of data by religion from the 2011 census is not yet out. Any delay might be deliberate: to avoid a fuss ahead of general elections, due next year. Higher fertility rates among Muslims might be seen as politically sensitive. Private studies guess that India has about 177m Muslims, comprising 14.6% of the total population. It marks a rise of nearly 40m, or a percentage point, on a decade before. Higher fertility will ensure the upward trend continues. Overall, India’s fertility rate is falling, but among Muslims it is dropping most slowly.

We have seen how Europe's falling fertility rate, among native Europeans that is, means that in a few decades Europe would be become Muslim majority. We know that the same outcome awaits Russia, another country where the non-Muslim Russians are having too few children.

If Indics in India fall prey to the same "civilizational" disease, then of course Bharat is similarly doomed. The Macaulayization and Yuppieization of India has meant that we are ever willing to look at the Western lifestyle and to ape them without giving it some due critical look. The fact of the matter is that the Western lifestyle has meant the demise of Western Civilization, simply having been overrun by an Islamic Demographic Tank!

From the perspective of a healthy individual alone, with all-round mental development and long-term emotional support, it is important that a child grows up with the fortune of having a relationship with both a brother and a sister.

What Bharatiya society needs to do is to create a Rashtriya-Samajic Framework which facilitates the Dharmics in their biological duty as well as their duty to nurture their children giving them the best possible upbringing and education!

Every Bharatiya should see it as his/her Dharmic Duty to provide at least one brother and sister for each of their children!

Hum Do, Hamare (Har Ling ke Kum-se-Kum) Do-Do!

हम दो, हमारे (हर लिंग के कम से कम) दो-दो।

[ShauryaT]

it is a mistake to think that BG is about Moksha.

Devesh ji: I will highly encourage you to keep on studying and interacting with many gurus who expound on BG. Of course a regular study of it can lead to your own insights and views.

[ShauryaT]

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand the intrinsic aspirations of the human spirit!

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand man's love for his progeny!

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to appreciate the rajasik and tamasik aspects of man and their consequences!

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to appreciate the strengths of alien ideologies.

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed in its duty to the Supreme, to impart Brahma Jñāna to each Ātman.

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand the prerequisites for a society to be full of vitality and be driven by merit.

Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand that any hierarchy breeds more hierarchy and contempt is simply passed on to the lower level on and on and on, fracturing Rashtriya fraternity. Instead of expanding fraternity horizontally, Varna Dharma fractures the fraternity vertically.

We can end this for it will go nowhere. As far as I am concerned, your mind and propositions have nothing to do with SD at all. It is a western mind, which does not seem to practice SD in one's daily life and an attempt to understand the SD view and its specific history and its challenges like Ram Swarup or Sita Ram Goel or Deendayal Upadhyaya or MKG did. Really no different from a JLN but less delusional on external challenges and quite ethno-national like Savarkar. I am sure there is a place for it in our polity. RajeshA: I simply do not see eye-eye on this approach and shall never buy such a deracinated thought process, no disrespect meant but I will hold our law givers to be of far higher caliber to have understood SD than Prajapati RajeshA.

Time permitting, i want to write a little on the next anchor of SD. Ashrama Dharma and see how much of our dear Hindutvadis embrace it. But, thank you for asking questions, it allowed me to get my thoughts out.

[RamaY]

^ I support ShauryaT garu w.r.t Varna Dharma.

It is a different thing if the society wants/doesnt-want to practice overt Varna Dharma. But to say it failed so many things (RajeshAji) is not correct.

Varna Dharma never failed anyone. It did its duty. The society started failing when Bharatiyas lost, for whatever reasons, their identity, strength and vision.

For argument sake, imagine Bharat won all the battles it had with all other isms and reversed the occupations. The whole world would be following overt Varna Dharma today. The whole humanity is following covert Varna Dharma all along.

RajeshA garu,

1. Varna Dharma never hindered intrinsic aspirations of human spirit. It always facilitated genuine human aspirations. When those aspirations are selfish, Varna Dharma acts Guard Consciousness.

2. Varna Dharma in fact understood man's love for his progeny more than the man himself. It ensured that the progeny are given a channeled growth path. And a suitable accommodation when progeny decide to follow their intrinsic aspirations.

3. Varna Dharma is all about channeling individual Satva-Rajas-Tamo energies in a manner it offers the individuals suitable company and an effective use of resources for the society.

4. Varna Dharma clearly understood the strengths/weaknesses of alien ideologies, that is why it provided sufficient options to accommodate right candidates. There are 10 different types of sons and 10 different types of fathers etc., In all cases where the individual aspiration is genuine Varna Dharma ensured that the individual is given fair position in the society.

5. The whole purpose of Varna Dharma is to encourage and facilitate all members of society Brahma Jnana. It knows for sure the social role of individual has nothing to do with the individual journey towards God-realization. That is why it never connected/confused these two.

6. Varna Dharma is classification of individuals based on their merit. It is a different point that this merit is calculated based on much larger set of parameters than one 3-hr exam.

All said and done, it doesn't matter if a society follows overt Varna Dharma or not. Varna Dharma is a natural phenomenon and is practiced by all societies whether they accept it or not and adhere to it or not. The societies that develop social interactions in non-congruence with intrinsic Varna dharma of its members will suffer. This is what happening in Bharat right now.

[Pranav]

Varna Dharma in fact understood man's love for his progeny more than the man himself. It ensured that the progeny are given a channeled growth path. And a suitable accommodation when progeny decide to follow their intrinsic aspirations.

Progeny issues would come under the Jati system, rather than the Varna system, no?

[RamaY]

^ True. But RajeshA's reference (as I understood) is that a Sudra would want and support his progeny's pursuit to move to Brahmana varna.

The biggest misunderstanding in this whole thing is that
1/ Varna structure is hierarchical. This is the premise that destroyed Bharat then and now.
2/ People cannot move across Varnas. This is another nonsense. In the beginning Kasyapa Prajapati's progeny became different races/jatis/varnas based on their mothers (this breaks the logic of men's varna is given to children). Then a Sudra Satyavati's son Brahmin Vyasa impregnated Kshatriya Kanyas to give birth to Kshatriya sons; that became the kshatriya varna of Bharat for past 5000 years
3/ Varna is the path to self/God realization (In fact the Ashrama Dharma is the roadmap for self/God realization, not Varna Dharma).

[ankitash]

So either one removes the water, takes out the feces, clean the bathtub, pour in new water, and let the SD baby in again gently, or you will see those masses willing to move to other bathtubs with no baby but at least perfumed feces.

+100

East Asians had a similar system where divided people into four professions. Unlike us, they actually conducted examinations to determine "Varna". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_occup ... e_of_China

This ideal Varna system was dumped by the Japanese during the Meiji restoration.

1000 word polemics to defend a rejected system make no sense.

[RajeshA]

We can end this for it will go nowhere. As far as I am concerned, your mind and propositions have nothing to do with SD at all. It is a western mind, which does not seem to practice SD in one's daily life and an attempt to understand the SD view and its specific history and its challenges like Ram Swarup or Sita Ram Goel or Deendayal Upadhyaya or MKG did. Really no different from a JLN but less delusional on external challenges and quite ethno-national like Savarkar. I am sure there is a place for it in our polity. RajeshA: I simply do not see eye-eye on this approach and shall never buy such a deracinated thought process, no disrespect meant but I will hold our law givers to be of far higher caliber to have understood SD than Prajapati RajeshA.

ShauryaT ji,

of course it will go nowhere!

As far as I am concerned, your views are simply to bring back the hierarchical, hereditary and discriminatory caste system pleading some Sanatan Dharma sanction when there is none.

It is not just delusional but laughable that people of Bharatvarsha would give you any support at all in this narrative. More than that, Varna Dharma failed because it was beset with intellectual laziness, which one sees more than in ample quantities when you simply ignore the lacunae of Varna Dharma, as perceived by others. No amount of condescending references to whole texts can really cover the lack any good arguments.

So here is the list again! Look at it carefully before trying to push your agenda of caste any further! It explains why Varna as a social division is in today's world not only immoral but anti-Rashtriya!

1. Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand the intrinsic aspirations of the human spirit! Do you think a Shudra wants to keep his progeny for ever at the Shudra level?
2. Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand man's love for his progeny! Do you think a "Brahmin", "Kshatriya" or "Vaisya" would NOT want his progeny to inherit his knowledge, his wealth, his connections, his status, and consequently keep out the other? Isn't this the main reason that Varna became ossified, hereditary and discriminatory?
3. Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to appreciate the rajasik and tamasik aspects of man and their consequences! Do you think "Brahmins", "Kshatriyas" and "Vaisyas" or those considered as such or those who consider themselves as such do not have these Gunas, and thus would obviously be susceptible to entitlement, nepotism, and the like?
4. Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to appreciate the strengths of alien ideologies. If the so-called "Brahmins" you yourself point out had done their home-work well and done some timely Purva-Paksha of Islam, called out the Adharma in it, developed a strategy of how to counter it ideologically and militarily and brought it to the attention of Hindu rulers, that it would have had such a success in Bharatavarsha? That is a failure of immense proportions. Even now you are telling me, that Purva-Paksha of "external challenges" is useless. What is the use of a pampered elite class which fails this bad?
5. Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed in its duty to the Supreme, to impart Brahma Jñāna to each Ātman. Do you think that only the class of so-called "Brahmins" should have the privilege to get the best education? I am not talking simply of the Vedas. I am also aware that in places in India we had education for the masses before the British ruined the system. But we have had a civilization of thousands of years! So why did education (Scriptures, Sanskrit, Mathematics, Astronomy, ityadi, ityadi) not permeate a bigger section of the population, especially across jati lines? I don't think that the argument "they were not willing to invest 12 years of Veda training" really answers the question.
6. Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand the prerequisites for a society to be full of vitality and be driven by merit. For Vitality it is important that people from various sections of society have a chance to come up. They bring a different outlook and are differently creative, so ossified Jati and Varna barriers are simply not conducive. Similarly one needs to give EVERYBODY the same access to education, so that the most meritorious do have the chance to explore their potential and shine! Varna did not allow that!
7. Varna Dharma went wrong when it failed to understand that any hierarchy breeds more hierarchy and contempt is simply passed on to the lower level on and on and on, fracturing Rashtriya fraternity. Instead of expanding fraternity horizontally, Varna Dharma fractures the fraternity vertically. Today two Indians walking on a street even outside India sometimes need to wonder whether to greet the other or not! Where is the Fraternity? And I do put the blame on Varna Dharma for that, much more than on different languages!

Of course everybody has his individual predominant "Varna" in his personality at any given time based on the Triguna-system and his Karma, and that would of course be recognized by society as one's psychological profile and worthy of some post, but by putting a Varna label on a person, society straitjackets him to his and to the society's detriment! It fails to appreciate the psychological dynamism that is part of every person!

Formalized social divisions, especially such that are argued as being divinely sanctioned (that too wrongly), are counter-productive to the emergence of a spiritually united Bharatvarsha.

I repeat again, there is absolutely nothing in Śhruti which justifies this system regardless of how many shastras one condescendingly may want to refer to!

I accept that you do not wish to go into these issues, and I am okay with it!

[RajeshA]

^ True. But RajeshA's reference (as I understood) is that a Sudra would want and support his progeny's pursuit to move to Brahmana varna.

The biggest misunderstanding in this whole thing is that
1/ Varna structure is hierarchical. This is the premise that destroyed Bharat then and now.
2/ People cannot move across Varnas. This is another nonsense. In the beginning Kasyapa Prajapati's progeny became different races/jatis/varnas based on their mothers (this breaks the logic of men's varna is given to children). Then a Sudra Satyavati's son Brahmin Vyasa impregnated Kshatriya Kanyas to give birth to Kshatriya sons; that became the kshatriya varna of Bharat for past 5000 years
3/ Varna is the path to self/God realization (In fact the Ashrama Dharma is the roadmap for self/God realization, not Varna Dharma).

RamaY ji,

1) I too have argued that Varna are not hierarchical, not when one looks at "Varna" as faculties of human consciousness for one needs them all, however as social categories Varnas did become hierarchical simply based on power and dependency considerations - Brahmins gave the Kshatriyas legitimacy. Shivaji's coronation comes to mind. Kshatriyas provided a safe environment for the Vaisyas to trade in. Vaisyas provided the employment and income to the Shudras.

2) If we understand Varna as social categories, I have on more than one occasion said that it was a legitimate exercise to try to model society according to the divisions of Purusha (the faculties of Consciousness). I don't deny that Varna was NOT conceived as a structure which was later on supposed to become hierarchical, hereditary and discriminatory, but as I said this development lay in the Ritam of formalized social divisions. In due time it was bound to happen and it happened. The love of progeny and rajasik and tamasik elements to every person's personality are factors that one cannot ignore.

3) I have very high regard for the Puruṣārtha and Āśrama systems and I consider them integral to Sanatan Dharma. For Varna as social divisions I see no sanction from Śhruti.

[RamaY]

RajeshA garu

Do you think Varna system is more of a Puranic development and not a Shruti driven?

P.S: I am not questioning you, but just looking to understand...

[RamaY]

RamaY ji,

1) I too have argued that Varna are not hierarchical, not when one looks at "Varna" as faculties of human consciousness for one needs them all, however as social categories Varnas did become hierarchical simply based on power and dependency considerations - Brahmins gave the Kshatriyas legitimacy. Shivaji's coronation comes to mind. Kshatriyas provided a safe environment for the Vaisyas to trade in. Vaisyas provided the employment and income to the Shudras.

2) If we understand Varna as social categories, I have on more than one occasion said that it was a legitimate exercise to try to model society according to the divisions of Purusha (the faculties of Consciousness). I don't deny that Varna was NOT conceived as a structure which was later on supposed to become hierarchical, hereditary and discriminatory, but as I said this development lay in the Ritam of formalized social divisions. In due time it was bound to happen and it happened. The love of progeny and rajasik and tamasik elements to every person's personality are factors that one cannot ignore.

3) I have very high regard for the Puruṣārtha and Āśrama systems and I consider them integral to Sanatan Dharma. For Varna as social divisions I see no sanction from Śhruti.

I think we all are saying the same thing and are going back to what Harbansji said that created this thread...

Let us assume Varna system is inherently biased. Then we must get away with it immediately. On the other hand if Varna system is either misunderstood or even worse if we are in an evolutionary period where Varna system appears to be in-congruent with current reality then we have two options. First option is to still get away with Varna system & overtly denounce it; and the second option is to not to speak of Varna system but let the underlying varna consciousness undisturbed.

I think in societies like USA the second option is in place consciously or unconsciously. All the social structures and selection criteria are subtly influenced by this varna consciousness.

In India on the other hand, there is a overt delegitimization of Varna system. On its own it wouldnt be harmful, but when combined with Secularism and Colonial systems (BIC) this is becoming overt destruction of underlying social structures like we are seeing in Delhi Rape case or Nitish Kumar's Paki trips and safety of Hindus etc.,

Again, I am all for removing Varna discussion from Bharatiya society, both in good/bad ways. That means we should stop the nonsensical ku-varna interpretations of Bharatiya Epics in secular quarters (Pls read the story i posted in this thread).

My next question is as we peel the onion and get rid of all the layers that we think are controversial, then how long it is before we are asked to get rid of our Hindu identity?

[RajeshA]

My next question is as we peel the onion and get rid of all the layers that we think are controversial, then how long it is before we are asked to get rid of our Hindu identity?

RamaY ji,

There are two aspects attributed to Sanatan Dharma which are used by alien ideologies to shame us and since there is some substance to it, the shame is also accepted by us - Varnic social divisions and Karmon ka Phal (Fatalism).

The Europeans did so much analysis of our texts but never claimed that these are not borne out by our scriptures. The dominant opinion among the various Sampradayas on these questions were on these lines and they accepted these claims. They could have said, "Excuse me, are you sure, because the text could also be interpreted differently?"

They were looking at our texts not only to understand us better, but also to understand our ideological weaknesses! So it really was in nobody's interest to try to deny these two - Varnic hierarchies and Fatalism! I'll leave Untouchability for now, for which I have different explanation for that.

My theory is that because the Christianists (and Islamists) wanted to ideologically fight Sanatan Dharma, they needed these flaws to continue to be considered as intrinsic to Sanatan Dharma.

Fatalism in Sanatan Dharma has of course been misunderstood. Just as we receive the fruits of our past Karma, we are also all the time producing new Karma. Understanding our present predicament should not be considered as Accepting it as well and making do with it. Similarly leaving the other to his own devices abdicating any role for oneself in helping the other in the name of the other having to bear the brunt of past Karma is itself producing bad karma for oneself! So I don't accept any criticism on this score, even though some "learned" people among us may have propounded this theory to the lesser privileged groups to quieten them.

Similarly Varnic Hierarchy as we have discussed in many many words beforehand is something not really part of Sanatan Dharma as both some privileged jatis and foreign ideologies would prefer to continue claiming, and understandably so. It is not with any bitterness that I approach this issue but simply with the interests of Sanatan Dharma, which forms my identity.

You ask when will we be asked to get rid of our Hindu identity! They of course are working tirelessly to make us get rid of Hindu identity!

Both Brits (Colonialists & Christianists) and Nehruvian-Secularists (Islamo-Christianists) have taken upon themselves to try to "Reform Hindu Samaj"! But both have been vociferous in their criticism of "Hinduism"! Nobody is making the argument that the above flaws are NOT part of "Hinduism", just something that crept into the society in its evolution! Both of the above parties (or should I consider them one and the same) are making the case that these flaws are intrinsic part of "Hinduism" and because they are intrinsic part, in order to reform, one has to get rid of "Hinduism" completely.

Even if we were "reformed", they would continue to bring up these issues in order to attack "Hinduism". Today, Sati is gone, but their literature would still be replete with it, and the Brits would be given the credit for curing us of this disease. Today in urban life, caste discrimination and untouchability are almost gone, but still the focus would remain that it is part and parcel of "Hinduism".

It is in the interest of our detractors (Christianists and Islamists) that these social ills be considered as divinely sanctioned in Sanatan Dharma. In fact in order to make a better case, they called our religion "Hinduism" which they could fill with all kinds of crap.

So it is not "Hinduism" that they are trying to reform! They have institutionalized all these ills as part of "Hinduism"! What they are trying to "reform" is the people's attachment to Sanatan Dharma, by always bringing up evolved ills as being intrinsic to it, and the institutionalized "Reform of Hindu Society" is an institutionalization of this propaganda.

The point is that even well-meaning institutions like RSS who have always stood for doing away with untouchability, caste discrimination, have also only accepted that these are distortions which crept in in an otherwise acceptable Varna Dharma, but have never gone the full hog to question any divine sanction for Varna itself.

So the debate between the Hindus and the Europeans/Islamo-Christianists/Cultural Marxists/etc. revolves around whether jati discrimination, untouchability, Sati, fatalism, etc. are part of "Hinduism" or not. Hindus keep on trying to rectify the impression but since the others own the term "Hinduism" they can bring it up any time they want, as if the Hindus hadn't corrected those misunderstandings! In the mean time, propaganda ensures ever-increasing deracination!

However we cannot really break out of this cycle of incessant criticism by our detractors until Sanatan Dharma's own so-called well-wishers themselves speak out that these are evolved ills and not divinely sanctioned.

As long as Sanatan Dharma's authorities and its invested sections consider Varna as a divinely sanctioned formalized division of society, there will always be discussion on the level of discrimination in it, whether the discrimination is inbuilt or not, etc. etc.

But as soon as Sanatan Dharma's authorities say, that Varna as social division is itself not divinely sanctioned but simply a social experiment which over time developed several ills, than basically the whole dart board that was painted on "Hinduism" goes away! Social ills one can always remove, but theological flaws cannot be removed and become a target of attack by detractors, and all too often social ills are projected as part and parcel of theological flaws.

So it is in our interest to remove the dart boards which we have helped them paint on us, on Sanatan Dharma! The dart-board is not Sanatan Dharma and its loss would not affect us negatively in the least. In fact it would free us to take down alien ideologies intellectually.

JMTs!

[RajeshA]

RajeshA garu

Do you think Varna system is more of a Puranic development and not a Shruti driven?

P.S: I am not questioning you, but just looking to understand...

RamaY ji,

We have had a long civilizational history and things developed over long periods. Some historians like to divide the whole history into two - Vedic and Puranic as if everything was a 2000 year process - 1000 for Vedic, 1000 for Puranic!

I think we should consider our history not as different ages each creating a little disconnection from the previous, but rather as one long evolution.

I just don't believe that our Rishis started dividing society. I think they appreciated the already existing regal lines and regal claims, but did not make Varnas as social categories to either legitimize their own exclusivity or that of the regal lines.

[RamaY]

^ Then why now?

What impact Varna has in current social context, when we have universal suffrage, access to education, equal opportunity to pursue a career of interest and so on?

The last straw we want to break seems to be the institution of marriage. The trends indicate we are doing this as well. I am literally seeing Brahmin born boys/girls not having any interest in Brahminical rituals and are marrying outside the caste and living a non-brahmin lives. Similarly Sudra born boys/girls living a Brahmana lives, marrying into Brahmana families and raising children per Brahmana ethos.

Once the laws are changed to remove mentioning of Caste in govt forms and associated affirmative actions, the old caste system will go into history completely.

Then we will be practicing our internal varnas without any social pressure or responsibility (because there is no varna based responsibility).

Perhaps this will be a society of Bji's proposal where every individual can display different varnas at different times without any social pressure or categorization.

[Agnimitra]

If "necessity is the mother of invention", then is it appropriate to tell someone "you are best suited for this type of external work and not for that type"?

Consider this case: A Vedic sanstha is starting IT education project for poor youth. Their policy is that Vedic revival should be married to spread of technological skills in Arya society. But should they first be researching the youth's varNa before training them all for this same job? Or in this case does sheer necessity override everything else? Will this training and job provide a platform where they can contribute to society in other ways?

Note: If a particular theory of varna is true, then it must be true at all stages of the purushaarthic development process. IMHO it is hypocritical so say, "Well right now India needs aarthic expansion before we can implement so-n-so concept of varNa. So anything that aids aarthic expansion right now is great, even if people have to do stuff that is not aligned with their varNa (as defined by so-n-so theory)."

Looks like varNa is linked with a surge in necessity - necessity for survival, necessity for dignity, necessity for psychological fulfillment and happiness, necessity for liberation. Will the same training provided to people of different varNas lead to different contributions, assuming the necessity level is kept high?

I think necessity level overrides everything else. Even if a person has natural talents for a certain external work, that talent is not fully realized for society unless that person's necessity level rises to the occasion. Also, without necessity level, sometimes the latent qualities of people aren't even visible. E.g. during crisis situations, "ordinary" boys rise to the occasion and perform heroic acts.