Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 11 Mar 2013 16:51

Lalmohan wrote:the father claims that ram singh was also repeatedly raped in jail - i guess no one should feel sorry about that too much

replug of an old post on our Prisons (forgive the rambling onlee) http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1379710

Lilo wrote:
SaiK wrote:Every case is different.. many states do not permit concealed guns. Had it been concealed [as they are criminals any way they will conceal the guns].. it would have been easy for the rapists to do the rape, and shoot the couples, and perhaps even thrown them into yamuna river.

There is no end to crime.. unless, people are willing not to forgive nor forget. The better solution is enable the criminals to live normal life, but totally disabled in the criminal act they are in.. chopped off hands, legs, benis, etc. all surgically done for making them suffer the loss of such vital organs. Also install a permanent gps tracker on the criminals , way deep into their bones.
Or give them a sense of purpose in life , make them realize that they are infact not rejects from the society (a belief they had formed during their formative years of their life due to the apathy they felt) , stop the conditions of brutalization which harden them in the prisons (gangs , buggery , drugs ,violence etc) , divide their sentence into say three phases characterized by degree of quarantine from others and the outside society..

Say initial period of solitary confinement , later period of association with inmates and group formation , final grouping and tasking phase

In final phase they partake in inherently peaceful (yet highly gainful) occupations like growing and caring for plants in nurseries, seed production in open range, floriculture ,horticulture, silk worm rearing and production , beekeeping etc along with training to develop basic literacy for those who are illiterate , basic education etc.. and some vocational courses esp in health sector like nursing depending on capacities and interests...

Evolve a mechanism of group liability for the members of the group in the third phase and for a set number of years after release ... any member of the group lapsing back into crime will penalize the entire group - ( a kind of informal peer pressure based control as seen in SHG and Microfinance group lending models ) . Compulsorily provide the released inmates identification documents (PAN,Ration,Voter ID,Aadhar,no frills bank account etc), provide initial capital funding for the small enterprise the group collectively chooses to initiate (adding to the salary earned by their inmates in the 3rd phase) - provide project management help in the beginning , provide parcels of land on LEASE for 3-5 years for market gardening etc..

Development of a strong sense of group feeling and mutual attachment is a must - and once such groups are formed, the sentence periods could be rationalized so that the whole group will collectively get a parole or pardon or release to come out into the society together and work together and live ..

This will work with all those petty and first time criminals (80% of the inmates) who dont have strong criminal associations (dont come from family background which encourages crime, or those who already established a strong nexus with the criminal part of the society like mafia etc)

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 11 Mar 2013 17:05

Looks like Indian prison inmates (undertrials and convicts) have better moral compass than politicians and judiciary.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Mar 2013 18:14

Sachin wrote:Ram Singh's father is now coming up with a claim that his son cannot commit suicide. He says one hand of Ram Singh is a bit weak (after some accident) and he would not use it effectively.

How was he driving a bus then ?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 11 Mar 2013 19:15

Lalmohan wrote: however, he would have received similar treatment from other inmates had he been in the US or in Scandinavia (where the prison regime is very liberal) - so in a sense, it is possible to see the way 'natural justice' works

Even if this is a case of 'natural justice', it comes off as grossly insufficient. If Indian systems are taking the template for the liberal prison regime from the US & Scandinavia, shouldnt it also be borrowing the other aspects of the system, such as comprehensive systems of reform as stated by Lilo in an earlier post, as well as a 'hybrid' form of execution involving lowering of blood pressure through panic induced by blood loss (a method originated in Scandinavia). Atleast, this method is not as contrived as the hanging process (of execution, not suicide).

A bit of meta-analysis with the executions bit- warranted nevertheless.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 11 Mar 2013 19:28

I doubt the clothes they give you at jail are strong enough to hang yourselves with. typically people use bedsheets or sneak in ropes etc.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 11 Mar 2013 20:17

Gusji,
It is very easy to kill one self in prison. I have seen one, where a minor killed himself with a plain T-shirt. You do not need a drop, as in a proper hanging. All you do is tie the shirt around your neck and then tie it to a railing on a bed, and let your weight do the trick. It is death by suffocation and not the breakage of the neck. All is needed is a will to kill ones self. But usually, before killing the inmate gives plenty of signs that he wants to die. We watch carefully for those signs and react to them by putting him/her on a suicide watch. Here, if some one dies, all those who were responsible for his/her care are punished. Promotions are stopped, money is taken from the salary and demotions may occur. In this case, what is surprising is that there were others in the cell where Ram Singh hanged himself, and they did nothing to stop him or raise the alarm. This could be seen as aiding and abetting the act, and is punishable under the law. A rapist/murderer of a woman, like Ram Singh, would never be put in the General Population in California, as he would be killed by the other inmates instantly. Rapists and child molesters are in the bottom of the prison hierarchy, and are hated by inmates as well as staff. He would be put in isolation in a single cell, where he would be monitored by the psych staff for his mental health.
Gautam

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Mar 2013 20:51

gautam-ji, how do prisoners mentally reconcile the punishment of a rapist with the frequent acts of rape within a prison? is one form considered worse than the other?

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 11 Mar 2013 23:47

Lalmohanji,
You have put a difficult question. To answer this, I must put myself in the mental conditions of a prisoner, which is a difficult task. Those offenders that rape women, who are weak, or molest children who are defenseless, are looked down upon in prison as predators that are harming the weak. Those that are doing time for murder of a strong man or killing police are on the top of the chain as they are perceived to be predators that are preying on the strong and considered to be fearless. Other inmates look up to them in admiration. Remember big sharks are respected. Now, rapes in prison is a different matter. This is not a gay type of thing where there is mutual sex. Here, one man sodomizes another in return of protection or other types of favors. He is always the active participant and does not return the favor. The victim is always the weak one, who may need protection and pays for it by giving sex to a strong man. The perpetrator does not consider himself to be gay, in spite of this relationship. If the victim comes to the authorities for help, he is put in isolation during investigation and often ultimately put in a sensitive needs yard, where all weaker inmates are placed, who can not hack it in the general population. This is where weaker inmates, gang drop outs and inmates with low IQ's or developmental disabilities are placed. But the prison tradition of solving ones own problems by oneself and not going to the authorities stops them from reporting rape. How does the perpetrator reconcile this act? I do not know the answer. Also, in my 21 years with inmates, I have not met an inmate who has admitted raping another. If they did, I will have to report it. So, it is difficult to judge their mentality.
I will stop here, as all this is OT.
Gautam

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Mar 2013 07:22

Source NDTV - Nidhi Razdan program

The lawyer of Raman Singh tells us that the accused very happy with the trial process and do not complain about any rape, harassment or mistreatment.

But the father of accused says he was sodomized.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Mar 2013 10:57

part 1

http://in.news.yahoo.com/video/ram-sing ... 10344.html

part 2

http://in.news.yahoo.com/video/ram-sing ... 10880.html

An inmate said that most of them were waiting for an opportunity to give prime accused in the Delhi gangrape case, Ram Singh, special treatment.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 12:33

With'natural justice' being the flavor of the day, i don't blame the Italian marines not getting back to India now. So i hope those that look for short cuts do understand the implications of such cuts.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Mar 2013 13:07

harbans ji - i don't advocate 'natural justice' - however prisons are nasty places full of nasty people where nasty things happen - and very little can be done to prevent it. i would rather that ram singh had been tried and convicted. i would have preferred that he had not been assaulted or raped, however there is an inevitability of that happening to him in prison given the mind set that gautam ji describes. am i upset by it - no, not really.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 13:14

harbans wrote:With'natural justice' being the flavor of the day, i don't blame the Italian marines not getting back to India now. So i hope those that look for short cuts do understand the implications of such cuts.

Nonsense, all prisons have "natural justice" of the sort talked about. Why bring Italian perfidy with India in it? If anything, being firangs, the Italians were likely to escape natural justice, heck any justice.

Why the eagerness to give a excuse for Italian perfidy?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 13:57

however prisons are nasty places full of nasty people where nasty things happen - and very little can be done to prevent it.

Lalmohan Ji, i think no one is sad that Ram Singh died. Yet one of the consequences of this blunder is what the Italians will take advantage of. This was a really HIGH profile case, being watched world wide. That he was 'suicided' is not in doubt to anyone, whatever one may say and however bureacratically it may be put that it was pure suicide, no one will ever believe it. However, it simply has one effect. It gives adequate justification to the Italians not to send their prisoners here back here for trial or jail terms. This is not what i am saying, this is the natural; consequence of the 'natural' justice meted out within the premises of our system. The Italian Govt cannot now send them back for trial..i trust you realize the reasoning and high ground that has been offered to them on a platter by this incident.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 12 Mar 2013 14:02

He died due to hanging, the sources said quoting the report. Singh's brother, who came to AIIMS to receive the body, alleged that he was murdered and that he saw injury marks on his body and finger marks on his neck. "My brother was murdered. I have seen injury marks on the body and finger marks on the throat," the brother, who did not wish to be identified, alleged.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 12 Mar 2013 15:32

there is no logical connection between ram singh's death and the italian case. it will not hold up in any court.
i am sure that there are just as many per capita jail deaths in italy.
one can argue that the italian judicial system is more warped from the way it treated the accused in the meredith kercher murder case

incidentally, i believe that even had ram singh been through the trial, his violent death in prison would have been a question of when and not if

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Mar 2013 15:39

RamaY wrote:Source NDTV - Nidhi Razdan program

The lawyer of Raman Singh tells us that the accused very happy with the trial process and do not complain about any rape, harassment or mistreatment.

But the father of accused says he was sodomized.

All of the accused are claiming that they also have been sodomized. No earthly reason not to believe them. It seems to be a natural and wholesome pastime in tihar.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 17:10

Some good news

16:58 Gang-rape protests: 8 booked for cop death freed: The eight persons booked on a murder charge for Constable Subhash Tomar's death during anti-rape protests in New Delhi were today given a clean chit by Delhi police which informed the High Court that "no evidence" was found against them.

The police, however, said it has found evidence of their involvement in destruction of public properties during the protests against the December 16 gang rape of a 23-year-old paramedical student who later died in a Singapore hospital.

Additional Solicitor General (ASG) Siddharth Luthra said that "no evidence" was found during investigations that could lead to the involvement of eight persons to constable's death, but their role was found in destruction of public properties during the protests near India Gate.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 16 Mar 2013 13:35

Power to punish is fast slipping out of the hands of the Judiciary and its executional arm-the Police.The suicide that happened within Tihar premises indicates this quite clearly.The key offender, leader of the gang that raped Jyoti Singh, is now dead,other five are still on trial.Weak willed politicians who cannot take a stand, are behind this appaling state of affairs, and things do not look good in the future.Over a 100 rapes have already occured after this ghastly 16th December Night, and of these, at lest a dozen gang-rapes, with the recent one in Bhopal of a Swiss lady, has once again shaken up the social fabric.Recently in another gang-rape attempt in Delhi, a woman jumped off the car, and saved herself, the would be rapists tried to run her down too.To top it all they were known to her.Arrests have been made.
Delays in punishment amount to justice denied,and this is happening.Where are we headed with this Anti-Rape bill, which is still desperately seeking its birth in the Parliament.Nexus between politics and Police has to be investigated, as this sort of nexus is what subverts the process of justice.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 16 Mar 2013 17:28

harbans wrote:
however prisons are nasty places full of nasty people where nasty things happen - and very little can be done to prevent it.
Lalmohan Ji, i think no one is sad that Ram Singh died. Yet one of the consequences of this blunder is what the Italians will take advantage of. This was a really HIGH profile case, being watched world wide. That he was 'suicided' is not in doubt to anyone, whatever one may say and however bureacratically it may be put that it was pure suicide, no one will ever believe it. However, it simply has one effect. It gives adequate justification to the Italians not to send their prisoners here back here for trial or jail terms. This is not what i am saying, this is the natural; consequence of the 'natural' justice meted out within the premises of our system. The Italian Govt cannot now send them back for trial..i trust you realize the reasoning and high ground that has been offered to them on a platter by this incident.

While what you are saying maybe true, what you need to bear in mind is that it doesn't make a difference. Even if the judicial system went through its motions and everything was "according to the book", no country - not Italy, not UK, not US - would let their citizens be subject to another country's laws. If not this, they would use another excuse not to send their citizens back. It is only India that lets its citizens be mistreated the world over. But then again, why speak of GOI letting some country 1000's of miles away mistreat a citizen when it lets our neighbor do the same without any repercussions. One thing I've noticed Indians (in general) not teach their kids is to fight against a bully (they tell their kids to avoid the bully and not pick a fight - this is all good in an ideal world, but these impressions last a lifetime). Its not about winning but standing up ourselves.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 16 Mar 2013 21:59

Public sentiment against juvenile before trial unfortunate: CJI Altamas Kabir

NEW DELHI: Chief Justice of India Altamas Kabir on Saturday said public sentiments akin to "baying for blood" of the juvenile accused in the Delhi gang rape and murder before the conclusion of trial is unfortunate.

Referring to December 16 gang rape-murder case as a "ghastly" incident, Justice Kabir also said the kneejerk reaction of general public against the juvenile was wrong.

He was speaking at an international colloquium on juvenile justice,

Justice Kabir also blamed media for allegedly whipping up sentiments of public against the juvenile by projecting him as the most brutal among all accused.

"It is not new and such incidents have happened earlier also. But unfortunately media this time came out saying that juvenile was the most brutal before evidence was produced and trial started," he said.

He said various versions are coming to fore about the incident and media should wait for the completion of trial in the case.

He said juvenile delinquents should be brought to the mainstream and made useful citizens of the country.

Rights of child should be protected as they are the future of the country, he added.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2013 22:48

I know criticizing justices is akin to contempt of court but justices should also stick to justice and not make political statements which make them vulnerable to criticism.

There is no need for Mr Kabir to keep making statements about the minor for it raises many issues and points of view.

For example is Mr Kabir talking for the following reasons:
- Innocence of the accused is presumed till proven guilty in a court of law?
- If so the court should provide speedy justice in heinous crimes. His bench which sat for 17 years on the Suryanelli rape case does no give much comfort about speedy and correct justice. Its more like dispensing with justice.
- Is he worried about the pressure to try the juvenile an adult when most likely the guy is bogus birth certificate? The very same Supreme Court rejected the Chief of Army Staff's school birth record but is upholding the juvenile's school birth record! Shouldn't there be equal justice under the law?
- Or the big Malsi the elephant the real issue?
- And Mr Kabir has provided the plausible excuse for the Italians murderers to escape Indian law and he cant be making pious statements about any thing under the sun like his former colleague Mr Katju!!!

Immunity does not mean impunity.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 16 Mar 2013 23:12

Public sentiment against juvenile before trial unfortunate, CJI Altamas Kabir says

NEW DELHI: Chief Justice of India Altamas Kabir on Saturday said public sentiments akin to "baying for blood" of the juvenile accused in the Delhi gang rape and murder before the conclusion of trial is unfortunate.

Referring to December 16 gang rape-murder case as a "ghastly" incident, Justice Kabir also said the kneejerk reaction of general public against the juvenile was wrong.

He was speaking at an international colloquium on juvenile justice, Justice Kabir also blamed media for allegedly whipping up sentiments of public against the juvenile by projecting him as the most brutal among all accused.

"It is not new and such incidents have happened earlier also. But unfortunately media this time came out saying that juvenile was the most brutal before evidence was produced and trial started," he said.

He said various versions are coming to fore about the incident and media should wait for the completion of trial in the case.

He said juvenile delinquents should be brought to the mainstream and made useful citizens of the country.

Rights of child should be protected as they are the future of the country, he added.

If people have forgotten here is a bit of "Jihad from the past"

"I wish I could have been there": CJI Altamas Kabir on gang-rape protests

"What happened that day (December 16) was not something new... But it caught the imagination of the people and led to a tremendous upsurge and this upsurge as I have said earlier also, was fully justified. What started as a protest, as a mark of showing one's anger, it was all genuine, absolutely necessary....", Justice Kabir said.

Congratulations India we have a two faced thug as our CJI.

member_23858 · Post by **member_23858** » 16 Mar 2013 23:50

chaanakya wrote:Public sentiment against juvenile before trial unfortunate: CJI Altamas Kabir

May be CJI has not yet come to terms with the crime committed by the "Juvenile" offender is and why the public reaction was so strong in this particular case. May be he needs to be reminded that even a rabid mongrel pup needs to be put down for better of the society.

member_23858 · Post by **member_23858** » 16 Mar 2013 23:57

But it caught the imagination of the people and led to a tremendous upsurge and this upsurge as I have said earlier also, was fully justified

If that indeed was his exact wording, then its high time that Indians question the judiciary and it comes under severe scrutiny.
Delhi case did not capture imagination, it did not open up new avenues for an Indian to rape some one.

It was an act of pure evil and it went against every single definition of the word "Human Conduct", and the constant apathy of the state towards its subjects, only added to the ''UPSURGE".
Cant wait for him to retire in july

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Mar 2013 21:57

Looks like a repeat of the gang rape in MP. Only this time its a female Swiss touring cyclist and her husband who were camping. The police blame them for being in unsafe area.

After the Chief Justice of India Altamas Kabir gives benefit of doubt to rapists and GOI dithers about bolstering the law against the crime, its open season for this offence.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Mar 2013 19:39

Anti Rape Bill passed in Lok Sabha. I am happy that age of consent is not reduced. But Minors committing rape between 16-18 age group should have been included for stricter punishment. But , this is better than nothing. Will post details when available.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Mar 2013 20:09

Lilo

I want to thank you for your twitter account on Violenceagainstwomen @endthisviolence. It is working nicely and yes it is very depressing.

Looks like women safety should be our top priority. We have made it mandatory that 20% women be recruited against sanctioned strength in police. Hope this might make some little change in the longer run. We need to educate and sensitise people right from their school days.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 19 Mar 2013 20:24

Anti-rape Bill debate in Lok Sabha: Who among us have not followed girls? Sharad Yadav asks
PTI | Mar 19, 2013, 06.56 PM IST

NEW DELHI: Lok Sabha on Tuesday took up a Bill which provides for stringent punishment for crimes against women including natural life term or even death for repeat offenders of rape besides various penalties for stalking, voyeurism and acid attacks.

The Criminal Law (Amendment) Bill, 2013, which seeks to replace an Ordinance promulgated on February 3, was moved by home minister Sushilkumar Shinde in the backdrop of national outrage over the Delhi gang rape incident of December 16.

The Bill seeks to amend the Indian Penal Code, the Code of Criminal Procedure, the Indian Evidence Act and Protection of Children from Sexual Offences Act.

With an aim of providing a strong deterrent against rapes and gang rapes, the proposed legislation states that an offender can be sentenced to rigourous imprisonment for a term which shall not be less than 20 years, but which may extend to life, meaning imprisonment for the remainder of that person's natural life and with a fine.

It has provisions for handing out death sentence to offenders who may have been convicted earlier for such crimes.

Moving the Bill for consideration, Shinde sought the support of all parties, saying "let us honour the braveheart", referring to the 23-year-old victim of ganrape by six persons in the national capital last year.

"Time has come to send out a loud, clear and deterrent signal that the society will not tolerate such errant behaviour," he said, underlining that the Bill was being brought to plug loopholes in the law.

The Bill, for the first time, defines acid attack as a crime and also grants a victim the right to self-defence. It also has provisions for awarding a minimum 10-year jail term for perpetrators of the act.

The amendments seek to make specific provisions for punishment for offences of causing grievous hurt by acid attack and also for such an attempt.

It also seeks to define and prescribe punishment for the offences of stalking, voyeurism and sexual harrassment. The Bill also seeks to widen the definition of rape, broaden the ambit of aggravated rape and enhance the punishment for such crimes.

The Bill also proposes to fix the age of consent for sex at 16 years. However, Shinde moved an amendment to drop this particular clause as decided at an all-party meeting on Monday.

BJP, SP and some others demanded that the age of consent for sex be 18 years and not 16 as envisaged in the ordinance. They contended that since the age of marriage is 18 years, the age of consent should be the same.

The Bill also provides that all hospitals shall immediately provide first aid and/or medical treatment free of cost to the victims of acid attack or rape, and failure to do so will attract punishment.

It also has provisions for a minimum imprisonment of seven years which may extend to imprisonment for life and a fine for offender who is a police officer, a public servant, a member of the armed forces or management or the staff of a hospital.

The Bill also seeks to amend the Indian Evidence Act to allow a rape victim, if she is temporarily or permanently mentally or physically disabled, to record her statement before a Judicial Magistrate with the assistance of an interpreter or a special educator. It also has provisions to videograph the proceedings.

Participating in the discussion, Shailendra Kumar (SP) said this law can be misused as men could be falsely implicated.

He criticised the attire worn by women in certain TV serials and films, inviting protests from film actress-turned-politician Jaya Prada, an unattached member.

Dara Singh Chauhan (BSP) said his party leader Mayawati has articulated the party's view very well in the all-party meeting held to discuss the Bill.

Pressing for early passage of the Bill, Mayawati had said that if the Bill is not cleared in this session, the ordinance will lapse and women in the country will suffer.

Sharad Yadav (JD-U) said provisions to make stalking and staring a crime can be misused. "Who among us have not followed girls," Yadav said evoking peels of laughter.

He asked whether the government has built necessary infrastructure like more women police stations to deal with the crime once the law came into force.

Yadav expressed concern whether women will get jobs after the law is passed. "People will be scared to give jobs to women," he said, citing the misuse of anti-dowry law.

He said SP Chief Mulayam Singh Yadav deliberately did not speak on the issue as he feared that he would be criticised while presenting his view point.

Responding to this, the SP leader said he did not speak "intentionally".

Opposing the legislation, he said policemen would misuse the law to falsely implicate men.

"Had I spoken the truth, there would have been problem. There is no need for this law. You are giving all rights to police. We will be wrongly implicated," Mulayam said.

Noting that there was no inadequacy of law in the country, he cited the execution of rape convicts in some states based on the existing law.

Mulayam also said the existing mixed school system and co-education institutes will have to be abolished to indicate that boys will be in trouble once the law is passed.

Supriya Sule (NCP) said the focus of discussion on the Bill should be more on safety of women and the members of the House should not mistrust the intent of women in abusing the legislation.

She called for reforms in judiciary and police and not just law to ensure safety and security of women.

Welcoming the Bill, Kalyan Banerjee (TMC) said government is amending the Bill in haste and youngsters should be educated about its provisions.

He suggested that courses should be introduced for students above 14 years of age to educate them about the provisions of the law. .........

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 19 Mar 2013 20:41

chaanakya wrote:Looks like women safety should be our top priority. We have made it mandatory that 20% women be recruited against sanctioned strength in police. Hope this might make some little change in the longer run. We need to educate and sensitise people right from their school days.

C ji,
absolutely , i dont know if it was you, but some one in this thread commented once that the job of internal security should be left entirely to the leadership of women .

Men can take care of the borders and work in other security agencies (like investigative departments of police etc (if and when they are created) , where we can still retain the old merit based model .

Just leave street policing to groups of police women . General violence on women (not the politically driven one) will immediately come to heel .
Iam still praying that a biggie politico throws his full weight behind this proposal .

It took just a single Mata Anasuya to show the errant Lords their place . Imagine the power of a few hundred thousand in our police force.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2013 21:17

Looks like a foiled attempt on a British tourist in Agra.

I would like the minimum seven year imprisonment to be extended to any person (male or female) in position of authority in public and private sector. Yes there will be chorus of protests but this will curb workplace / educational institution harassment.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Mar 2013 23:58

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-N ... al-assault
British tourist in India jumps out hotel window fearing sexual assault

( Shariat values and previledges increasing by the day )

A British woman traveling around India jumped out of the third-floor window of her hotel room on Tuesday after the hotel's owner tried to force his way into the room at 4 a.m., causing her to fear she was about to be sexually assaulted, police said.Latest gang rape in India highlights risks for women, this time foreigners (+video)The woman was not badly hurt, although she suffered some injuries to her legs, police officer Sushant Gaur said.Police arrested the hotel owner in connection with the incident in Agra, the site of the Taj Mahal, one of India's most cherished tourist attractions, Gaur said.The Times of India reports that two men entered her room, including a manager of the Hotel Agra Mahal. Police said the victim said that she had earlier rejected the hotel manager's overtures offering a massage. "She got frightened so she ran to the other end of the room and jumped out of the window," Pawan Kumar, superintendent of police in Agra, said.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 20 Mar 2013 13:35

Shonu wrote:
harbans wrote:Lalmohan Ji, i think no one is sad that Ram Singh died. Yet one of the consequences of this blunder is what the Italians will take advantage of. This was a really HIGH profile case, being watched world wide. That he was 'suicided' is not in doubt to anyone, whatever one may say and however bureacratically it may be put that it was pure suicide, no one will ever believe it. However, it simply has one effect. It gives adequate justification to the Italians not to send their prisoners here back here for trial or jail terms. This is not what i am saying, this is the natural; consequence of the 'natural' justice meted out within the premises of our system. The Italian Govt cannot now send them back for trial..i trust you realize the reasoning and high ground that has been offered to them on a platter by this incident.
While what you are saying maybe true, what you need to bear in mind is that it doesn't make a difference. Even if the judicial system went through its motions and everything was "according to the book", no country - not Italy, not UK, not US - would let their citizens be subject to another country's laws. If not this, they would use another excuse not to send their citizens back. It is only India that lets its citizens be mistreated the world over. But then again, why speak of GOI letting some country 1000's of miles away mistreat a citizen when it lets our neighbor do the same without any repercussions. One thing I've noticed Indians (in general) not teach their kids is to fight against a bully (they tell their kids to avoid the bully and not pick a fight - this is all good in an ideal world, but these impressions last a lifetime). Its not about winning but standing up ourselves.

And to prove my point:

109 Indian prisoners in Italian jails, but govt clueless

The country's record at helping its citizens who run into trouble abroad is, in any case, nothing to be proud of. Surprisingly, though, in the context of the Indians in Italian jails, the government seems to be completely clueless and is not even aware of the reasons behind their detention.

...

"It's surprising the way our government plays its hand. It was evident in the way it allowed itself to be taken in by the Italians in the marines case and now it seems to have given up on its own citizens too because the Italians refuse to share information," says Delhi-based lawyer Avi Singh. "The least it can do is to have the Indian embassy in Italy find out details and pursue the cases."

Officials at the Indian embassy in Rome did not respond to TOI's queries on the subject, despite repeated attempts. Sources in the Indian community in Italy, however, say that the embassy rarely, if ever, takes up cases of detention of Indian nationals with the Italians. "I don't think that our embassy has intervened with the Italians whenever Indians have been arrested. Usually, those who land in trouble have had to fend for themselves," says Nandkumar Kurup, president of the Indian Association of Northern Italy.

This is the case for Indians the world over. I have had the privilege of dealing with useless embassy staff in Kuwait. The ME is notorious for bad treatment.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2013 20:53

Lets bash Indian Embassy pontiffs in the Indian Foreign Policy thread. They do deserve it.
Menawhile how is the slow track Delhi Gang rape case trial proceeding? Is the Judge still mourning the death in his family?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Mar 2013 21:12

I think the true name of the "juvenile" rapist should become synonymous with "rapist"!

Why?

Because after this international uproar, there is a lot of focus on India viz-a-viz rapes, and any scare a British girl gets gets splashed all over the world!

It is important that the majority in India does not get tarred with this phenomenon!

Also any so-called Hindus indulging in such acts would have to think twice before committing these, whether they want to run around with a label which places a question mark over their identity!

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 21 Mar 2013 21:45

Forget religion based talk. Here it is in full view of the world, what our elected representatives think. Hint - Even in 4th century BC, we were better off

http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/progra ... 58619.html

And you expect other nations to take us seriously when we elect idiots who mouth such nonsense on live TV in our parliament?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Mar 2013 22:57

http://world.time.com/2013/03/20/will-i ... -on-women/
Will India Tourism Be Tarnished by Attacks on Women?

India may have moved yet another rung down the ladder of desirable destinations for female travelers. Reports surfaced on Tuesday of a British woman injured after trying to escape out a window from the unwanted advances of a hotel manager in Agra, home of the Taj Mahal and the nation’s biggest tourist draw. The news came almost immediately after Indian police arrested six men suspected of raping a Swiss tourist, who was camping with her husband during a bike tour when the couple was attacked.Female tourists — and Indian women — have been on alert since December, when a 23-year-old woman was brutally raped aboard a moving bus in New Delhi and eventually died of her wounds. Security in the capital has been visibly ramped up since then. Barricades are now set up on busy streets at night, manned by police who, with varying degrees of diligence, keep an eye on passing cars. But reports of egregious attacks on Indian and foreign women alike are still ubiquitous in the country’s media outlets, raising the question of when, if ever, these measures and tough new laws aimed at deterring sex crimes are going to start working.Few are holding their breath. Instead, tips are circulating on travel forums, urging female tourists not to travel alone, wear revealing clothing, drink or smoke in public, or be overly friendly. The U.S. State Department travel advisory to India now includes a long warning to women that urges them to “observe stringent security precautions, including avoiding use of public transport after dark without the company of known and trustworthy companions, restricting evening entertainment to well-known venues, and avoiding isolated areas when alone at any time of day.”
It’s a p.r. nightmare for India’s tourist industry, which sees over 6.5 million visitors a year. Female tourists have been the subjects of high-profile attacks in India before, most notably in 2008 when a 15-year-old British girl was raped and left for dead on a beach in the resort area of Goa. (The crime was later featured in a Bollywood film.) And authorities this week have been quick to point out that tourists are subject to crime in any country, and that compared with some other locations, violent crime in India is relatively rare.It’s understandable for officials to feel piqued that India is being singled out for a few rare incidents that happen in other places too. But the truth is — and this is hardly something limited to the experience of foreign women — India feels different from a lot of other places. Incidences of rape are higher in the U.S. than in India, but the vigilance with which many urban women conduct their day-to-day lives feels more constant and more intense, in no small part because of the unspoken understanding that there may not be anybody there to help you if you get into trouble.That’s a reality that many Indian women live with. And even though changing that reality has been the topic of thousands of public and private conversations since December, it’s still probably not something most women who visit India fully grasp. At least not until they read about incidents like the ones this week, which bring home the simple and depressing fact that no one is immune to a vacuum of law and order.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Mar 2013 11:50

I believe there was widespread agreement on BRF that having more women in Police forces would go a long way towards overall empowerment of women, as well as a more humane and efficient police force.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/nitis ... s/1092647/

Nitish Kumar grants Bihar women 35% quota in police jobs

"Reserving 35 per cent seats for women will be another step towards women empowerment that started with the government giving 50 per cent reservation to women to panchayats in 2006," the chief minister said in his address at a function to mark the 101st foundation day of the state, Bihar Diwas, Friday.

The announcement came weeks after Bihar Military Police got its first all-woman battalion in Bihar Military Police. The battalion is ready to be deployed against Maoists.

The chief minister also said his government would bring amendments to relevant laws during the ongoing Assembly session to give 50 per cent reservation to women in co-operative societies, including the Primary Agriculture Credit and Cooperative Society.

He said his government has started training schoolgirls in judo and karate. "By the next Bihar Diwas function, we will see over 40,000 trained girls," he added.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Mar 2013 12:10

Looks like gag order on media has been lifted.
Finally reporters can sit in and reveal the details of what is going on.
This silence looks like tardiness otherwise.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 24 Mar 2013 17:45

'If girls look sexy, boys will rape.' Is this what Indian men really believe?

A shocking series of brutal attacks has led to a national debate on sexual violence. The Observer asked a group of young men in Goa for their views. The talk revealed a disturbing mindset

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ma ... itudes-men