I fully agree, the fishermen's family did a loathsome act and basically sold their people for money. However at this moment, it is India which has been spat on, and unless we can also say/show that this escape included the fishermen's familys willing acquiescence, I would not rope them in, for it dilutes the issue.chetak wrote:
Sankuji,
It is the duty of all citizens to support the Indian state in such matters.
STFU.More Italian than Italian?
Baikul ji, I would urge you to re-evaulate.Baikul wrote:Sanku ji, I am sure harbans ji has good reasons and I respect those.
.
See, it's not a matter of winning arguments. The correct question is - can you make them afraid of annoying you or not.harbans wrote:It;s their marines that are under trial here. If our system is flawed they will point to it and do their utmost to get their marines out of the clutches of a system that 'suicides' people under trial. You may like it or not, but it does give them the excuse and they will use this.Who are they to point out a failure of our system?
There was never a chance of the eyetalians going to tihar.harbans wrote:Atri ji, i also realize why you could never understand my points in the other threads. Look at it this way:Why are you linking RS hanging with the italian marines? What moral high ground are you talking about? and who's?
Italians: Why should we get our marines tried in India?
Indians: The crime happened in India.
Italians: NO that was the first point of controversy. But importantly we think these people cannot have a fair trial.
Indians: Our Justice system is very fair to prisoners.
Italians: Oh and the undertrial in the most high profile case underway just hanged himself in a cell with 3 others..and you say your justice system is fair?
Indians: But, but..
What is your response? What is India's response?
It only gives them an excuse if we let them take it.harbans wrote:It;s their marines that are under trial here. If our system is flawed they will point to it and do their utmost to get their marines out of the clutches of a system that 'suicides' people under trial. You may like it or not, but it does give them the excuse and they will use this.Who are they to point out a failure of our system?
A person with Indian interests at mind, instead of cooking up excuses on behalf of Italians would have basically focused on Italian failings.harbans wrote: What is your response? What is India's response?
I see.harbans wrote:STFU.More Italian than Italian?
Firstly, the sailors were placed on govt guest house and not in cell.harbans wrote:Atri ji, i also realize why you could never understand my points in the other threads. Look at it this way:Why are you linking RS hanging with the italian marines? What moral high ground are you talking about? and who's?
Italians: Why should we get our marines tried in India?
Indians: The crime happened in India.
Italians: NO that was the first point of controversy. But importantly we think these people cannot have a fair trial.
Indians: Our Justice system is very fair to prisoners.
Italians: Oh and the undertrial in the most high profile case underway just hanged himself in a cell with 3 others..and you say your justice system is fair?
Indians: But, but..
What is your response? What is India's response?
Baikul JI, lets see. From what i feel that the marines might have come back like the last time around in Xmas. The Tihar incident might have been a turning point. So lets wait.It only gives them an excuse if we let them take it.
Is he the guy who let them go?Atri wrote: On the side note, who is this altamas kabir guy? isn't he the same dude who has been denying bail to Sadhvi Pragya and others consistently? I have been curious about this dude for some time now (Sadhvi case and also his name which was new to me - never heard a dude named altamas)..
Well there has been no shortage of compromised SC judges in India.Sanku wrote:He is CJI folks!!!
another katju like drone bucking for a juicy post retirement sinecure.Pranav wrote:Is he the guy who let them go?Atri wrote: On the side note, who is this altamas kabir guy? isn't he the same dude who has been denying bail to Sadhvi Pragya and others consistently? I have been curious about this dude for some time now (Sadhvi case and also his name which was new to me - never heard a dude named altamas)..
He has also been loudly making excuses for the "juvenile" in the gang rape case.
He seems to be bad news.
Recall ex cji k. g. balakrishnanPranav wrote:Well there has been no shortage of compromised SC judges in India.Sanku wrote:He is CJI folks!!!
Yes, he let them go.. He accepted the affidavit from them stating that they cannot vote via post and have to return.Pranav wrote:Is he the guy who let them go?
He has also been loudly making excuses for the "juvenile" in the gang rape case.
He seems to be bad news.
Atri Ji, the problem here is raising the Stakes. When they respond, yes we want them tried but in a place where they are safe and not like in India where undertrials in high profile emotional cases are murdered/ suicided. Who will disagree. Where will you get the backers required for raising the stakes diplomatically, economically? Getting backers requires some high ground to say your justice systems do indeed provide the security needed for a fair trial.Indians: That is none of your phucking business. Marines should have thought this over before shooting the Indian citizens. Marines return OR we raise the stake.
chetak wrote:There was never a chance of the eyetalians going to tihar.
Even in kerala, they were kept in a government guest house.
They would have eventually been tried with them attending court in Delhi but continuing to stay in the eyetalian embassy.
We have already entered into an agreement with the eyetalians to let them serve out their sentences in eyetaly, if convicted in India.
TIHAR never ever entered or will enter the picture.
harbansji,harbans wrote:Baikul JI, lets see. From what i feel that the marines might have come back like the last time around in Xmas. The Tihar incident might have been a turning point. So lets wait.It only gives them an excuse if we let them take it.
about the marines.They do not want the details of the juvenile coming out. He is of a particular minority but has been identified sometimes as "Raju". Election year makes for interesting politics.
The response is "Go .... yourself. We may have the most $crewed up system ,but they violated our law , killed our people. Well they have to go through this system. Bad luck for them. Should not have been trigger happy. They will be sent back to italy at the end of the due process if they are acquitted, provided they have not suicided themselves. Tough luck but you walked into it"harbans wrote:Atri ji, i also realize why you could never understand my points in the other threads. Look at it this way:Why are you linking RS hanging with the italian marines? What moral high ground are you talking about? and who's?
Italians: Why should we get our marines tried in India?
Indians: The crime happened in India.
Italians: NO that was the first point of controversy. But importantly we think these people cannot have a fair trial.
Indians: Our Justice system is very fair to prisoners.
Italians: Oh and the undertrial in the most high profile case underway just hanged himself in a cell with 3 others..and you say your justice system is fair?
Indians: But, but..
What is your response? What is India's response?
No he has not. Tihar is the best and most high profile Indian prison barely a few kms from the parliament itself. If you cannot expect to protect undertrials there, what chance in some remote part of India.Chetak ji already answered this question...
Of course they are our lords and masters and their views must be reasonable.harbans wrote:But lets wait for the Italians to respond on why they are not sending the marines back this time.
To extend what some one else said in Nukkad -- It is a pity (for Pakis) that Kasab did not offer this argument for being tried in Pakistan, or maybe he did. It would be exactly like what you would expect from Pakistan.No he has not. Tihar is the best and most high profile Indian prison barely a few kms from the parliament itself. If you cannot expect to protect undertrials there, what chance in some remote part of India.
I guess Italy clearly told that in their first letter. Quoting 'The Hindu'harbans wrote:I know they are not being tried in Tihar. But lets wait for the Italians to respond on why they are not sending the marines back this time.
RajeshA jiRajeshA wrote: we still would have to hide our heads up our asses because we don't have any moral high ground or authority for anything at all!
harbans wrote:Baikul Ji, we cannot develop any response now. The high ground has been lost yesterday at Tihar. The Italians have every right not to send their marines to India for trial or sentencing after what happened yesterday. I hope the teeming hordes that were joyous with glee yesterday do realize the implications of the act. There is no high ground from which one can now take any action against the marines.
http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/en/156872Somali prisoner commits suicide in Lecce penitentiary
OSAPP
Monday, January 07, 2013
Italy's jails continue to suffer overcrowding
Lecce, January 7 - Italian Penitentiary Police Union (OSAPP) said on Monday that a 38-year-old Somali man committed suicide Sunday afternoon in the Borgo San Nicola penitentiary near the southern city of Lecce by hanging himself in the prison's infirmary cell.
Mohamed Abdi, who was serving time for theft, had been in the Lecce prison for approximately one year. OSAPP representative Domenico Mastrulli said that the prison, located in the region of Puglia, is "beset by several problems, first and foremost overcrowding". Roughly 60 prisoners in Italy commit suicide each year, approximately 20 times average for the general population, according to a study released in December.
The Permanent Observatory on Prison Deaths also found that 10 penitentiary police take their lives annually - a rate that exceeds the norm by a factor of three and ranks highest among the various branches of Italy's security forces. Contrary to most suicides, which are usually tied to personal events, a comparative study found that at least two-thirds of Italian prison suicide cases are due to "environmental factors".
The environmental factors in question do not refer to the prison environment per se but to "illegal" detention conditions, the study reported. The prison population has almost doubled in 40 years whereas prison capacity has only increased by 10,000 places. Marco Pannella, the historic leader of Italy's Radical Party, recently held a nine-day thirst-and-hunger strike to call for an amnesty to stop chronic overcrowding in Italy's jails, and for prisoners to be given the right to vote.
http://internetphd95.blogspot.in/2012/0 ... de-in.htmlInmate commits suicide, 41st this year in Italian prisons
(ANSA) - Biella, September 28 - A 51-year-old inmate in the northern town of Biella committed suicide overnight Thursday, becoming the 41st prisoner to take his own life in Italy since the start of the year.
Prison authorities say the man used his shoelaces to hang himself from the window grating of his cell, where he was being held in isolation.
The man was jailed in 2006 for a series of robberies and his sentence was up in 2014.
Figures show that 186 people died in Italian prisons in 2011, and 118 since the beginning of the year, 41 of them suicides.
Penitentiary Police Union (OSAPP) leader Leo Beneduci said that the prison situation "is a full-out massacre that needs to be stopped at all costs".
Jails contain almost 68,000 inmates compared to a supposed capacity of 45,743, prisoners' rights association Antigone said recently.
Italy's prison population is now at its highest level since World War II and recent estimates suggest it will continue rising unless urgent action is taken, with the number expected to climb above 100,000 this year.
Overcrowding is believed to be more than partly responsible for the high number of suicides in Italian prisons compared to those in most other developed countries.
"Aside from the powerlessness in front of daily tragedies, the men and women who work in the penitentiaries are frustrated by the inertia of the administrators and politicians who have abandoned them," Beneduci said.
The country's jails are still bursting nine months after the government's so-called 'Save Prisons' package aimed at ending overcrowding that has contributed to the rising suicide rate, Antigone said.
Ex-Mafia boss commits suicide in Italian prison
A former leader of Sicily's most powerful Mafia clan hanged himselfin his prison cell in Milan, Italy, Sunday. Giacomo GiuseppeGambino, 55, died shortly after guards found him hanging with a bedsheet wrapped around his neck, according to news reports. Herecently was transferred from Sicily to a private cell in Milan aftercomplaining of health problems. Authorities said it was not clearwhy he killed himself. Gambino, who had been jailed since 1994, wasconvicted of leading many mob operations. He also was charged insome of the most ruthless attacks blamed on the Sicilian underworld,including the killings of two judges in 1992.Last Russian troops leaving ChechnyaA military convoy …
India has been spat on. If the chirstist did this to each other somewhere else, we would not care. In India, India should be bigger than what christists feel about the issue.svenkat wrote:Yawn....
Two KL christists killed by TFTA italians.christists have no problem.For them,christist identity is more important than India.Just note and move on.
harbans wrote:No he has not. Tihar is the best and most high profile Indian prison barely a few kms from the parliament itself. If you cannot expect to protect undertrials there, what chance in some remote part of India.Chetak ji already answered this question...
Chetak Ji, i know this case very well. I have commented on this forum with many excerpts from international maritime law etc posted. So i am very familiar with the details here and the perspectives. I know they are not being tried in Tihar. But lets wait for the Italians to respond on why they are not sending the marines back this time.
This sounds noble but I used to fool myself with this kind of talk.Sanku wrote:India has been spat on. If the chirstist did this to each other somewhere else, we would not care. In India, India should be bigger than what christists feel about the issue.svenkat wrote:Yawn....
Two KL christists killed by TFTA italians.christists have no problem.For them,christist identity is more important than India.Just note and move on.
Vishal-ji --nvishal wrote:This sounds noble but I used to fool myself with this kind of talk.Sanku wrote: India has been spat on. If the chirstist did this to each other somewhere else, we would not care. In India, India should be bigger than what christists feel about the issue.
You and I are a third party. If you try helping them and I promise you'll return the sucker
Today an italian catholic murders the malayam catholic Desh let them settle it as a internal cult/tribe members of vatican, or arab kills hyderabadi muslim and it should be ignored as the internal matter of wahabbi tribe. We should not make it a matter of a citizen murdered.nvishal wrote:@ Sanku
It's not about the law of the land. Read what I read about hyd muslims and the saudi sheikhs. What the bedouin religious systems do is that they establish a master-servant relationship around the world. If you interfere with the hyd muslims, they'll be hostile. Similarly, if you interfere with the catholics or the protestants of india, they'll see you(third party) as the enemy. That's why I have continued to say from the beginning of this post - LEAVE THEM ALONE!! Let them settle it among themselves.
Yes please, I would like to know the same. Is the fact that a Indian law has been violated not reason enough for the Indian state to act?Manish_Sharma wrote: Is that what you're saying?
I think the whole problem has been that we have been leaving them alone too long for the fear of them turning hostile against us.nvishal wrote: they'll turn hostile against YOU
.....
LEAVE THEM ALONE!! Let them settle it among themselves.