AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

[member_22872]

India to act to bring back Italian Marines: PM

[kish]

India to act to bring back Italian Marines: PM

This is the joke of this century. I never knew PM of India can crack jokes.

[chaanakya]

While there is no logical connection between the custodial death of the accused in Tihar Jail and Italy citing this as an example to not to send Marines back to India to face the trial, the reality is that many of the Western Countries cite poor human rights records in Indian Jails, poor conditions and denial of basic rights and necessities to inmates and poor record of Criminal Justice System to deny our requests for extradition of many accused who are absconding. There may be political reasons behind this but Indian Govt is unable to counter these give the damning statistics of our Prison system and Judiciary and criminal investigation system. Why this case, when Abu Salem was extradited to India , India has given solemn assurance not to institute any more cases for past crimes and not to award death penalty even though his crimes may carry such penalty.

Apprehension of Harbans ji is quite right though Italians have not yet raised that ground but nothing prevents them from doing so and our poor records would not come to mour rescue nor their own pathetic record would help us as the accused are nopw not in our custody.

There is no point in shying away from the facts.

As it might have been decided Italians are not coming back and there might be some sort of arrangements between both the Govt otherwise while granting bail why personal sureties were not sought? SC should have settled the Jurisdiction issues first before allowing Bail and permission to visit Italy. They should have obtained orders of Supreme Court of Italy ( by whatever name it is known) before release.

There are provisions of serving sentences in the countries of their nationality and hence that is not something against international relations or Sovereignty.We should also accept it.

The problem is UPA has no spine and has lost its ability to conduct itself in a dignified manner. All erstwhile third rate kongis have now become front men.

[Klaus]

In an international tribunal India itself will be a party to the high ground. And that is what is going now to inevitably happen.

So this is a prediction based on career/personal experiences, which is being imposed onto the Indian state as an entity. You are assuming that any future bilateral talk will fail and India will be forced to move the International Tribunal, where it will receive further humiliation owing to Ram Singh's death under controversial circumstances.

Also, please note that implementation of Point 4 in your post will really do wonders in curing the 'allergy' of moral high ground that India has imposed on itself/been ascribed to as having by yourself. Well, one hopes that India puts some conscious effort towards extra-judicial implementation of Point 4, as some sort of indirect consequence of this distasteful & disgraceful episode.

[RajeshA]

India to act to bring back Italian Marines: PM

All that is dossier-business, about which no one cares!

The question is only how much did the PM Shri Manmohan Singh knew of the treachery to let these Italian Marines go!

[Sanku]

Put the Ambassador did in jail. Where there is a will there is a way.

I agree SwamyG, if not the ambassador, some Italians without a diplomatic licencse need to be rounded up, am sure some can be found in maoist infested areas preaching the word.

Where there is a will there is a way

[member_22872]

Italian marines issue: MPs slam Rome, victim's kin cry foul

Reacting to Rome's official communication to Delhi on Monday evening that the marines will not be coming back to India to face trial here, Singh described Italy's decision as "unacceptable". The prime minister was speaking after opposition MPs accused the ruling UPA of conspiring with the Italian government.

BJP leader Balbir Punj demanded to know why the Indian government is going soft on Girone and Latore. "They were arrested and the fact almost completely proven. These two are criminals who are being protected by Indian government in collusion with Italians," he noted.

[member_22872]

Italians first, Indians only afters the white masters.

[Pratyush]

What did we expect from this GOI?

[Sanku]

Apprehension of Harbans ji is quite right .

Chaanakya ji; unfortunately what harbans offered was a justification and not a apprehension, one he stuck to despite the incongruity being pointed out (which you agree) -- only much later did he climb down to trying to show that as apprehension.

[vishvak]

Perhaps there is benefit of doubt given to the trigger happy Italians by default. However are courts in Europe going to view the case from perspective of killed Indian fishermen?

The trial may be made to look 'more civilized' for followers and heathens alike- explicit or implicit by indirect propaganda - while showing everything else in bad light misusing mischallenged arguments in courts. All this is not disconnected especially when an open and shut case is left untried.

[RajeshA]

Put the Ambassador did in jail. Where there is a will there is a way.

I agree SwamyG, if not the ambassador, some Italians without a diplomatic licencse need to be rounded up, am sure some can be found in maoist infested areas preaching the word.

Where there is a will there is a way

Well this government has colluded with the Italian Government to let the Italian Marines go. By bringing up the bribery in AugustaWestland case, the Italians had put a knife to the neck of the Gandhi family. So the Congress leadership decided to make the prisoner exchange - Italian Marines in exchange for the Maino-Gandhis.

This is what happens when the leadership is compromised through corruption. Outside powers take advantage and can blackmail them.

There really isn't much this government is going to do on this.

It is wrong to say the Italians duped us. They didn't. This is a hostage exchange!

[member_22872]

poor conditions and denial of basic rights and necessities to inmates and poor record of Criminal Justice System to deny our requests for extradition of many accused who are absconding.

Even though I understand the argument, but why should killers be accorded any rights? I also understand innocent until proven guilty thing. But at one hand you have innocent people who lost lives at the hands of trigger happy Italian Mofos. What happened to the rights of the dead? some small poor kids now don't have fathers, may be they now might end on the roads. What happened to their rights which were snatched away by them and we should make sure these Italian mofos get their chicken tikkas with Italian bread, lest they have indigestion with a cool sterilized Evian water also a copy or two of recent edition of playboy lest boredom kills them in the prison?

[harbans]

Apprehension of Harbans ji is quite right though Italians have not yet raised that ground but nothing prevents them from doing so and our poor records would not come to mour rescue nor their own pathetic record would help us as the accused are nopw not in our custody.

There is no point in shying away from the facts.

Of course Chanakyaa Ji i am correct here a 100 percent. The problem i noticed last year. There are very few people in India who are into International Maritime law. The Italians saw that early on in this episode. The little lawyers that are there in this segment are pretty beholden to the maritime community for employment and opportunity. That was one reason i noticed an utter lack of failure in the media last year to enunciate the reasons why India had jurisdiction over the marines. I posted the relevant clauses here also on this forum in this page over several posts:

23rd Feb 2012:

Harbans Wrote: On the Italian Navy vs Indian Fishermen incident:

It's easy to see how the Italian media and Govt is hoodwinking Italians and Indians alike that the Italian Vessel was in international waters and so India does not have jurisprudence according to Maritime Law over an Italian flag vessel. That logic is plain dumb and wrong according to Maritime law itself. That logic assumes/ or would be right if the crime was committed on the Italian ship. But the muder actually took place on Indian soil. The Fishermen's boat is Indian flag and any crime taking place on board it, will have to be governed by the Flag state which is India! So the murder did take place technically on Indian soil and anybody having committed murder on Indian soil and running away will be caught even if they are in international waters. They may be extradited from other countries with bilateral agreements on the same too. International law accepts that. IF the Ship crew is not cooperating with the investigation, India has every right to seize the ship and arrest whosoever is involved in concealment of evidence, Guns for example.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... w#p1247070

The problem then and here now was that the Italians had convinced key people that the jurisdiction lay with the flag state as this article today says:

There were no legal grounds for holding the Italians: Surya Balgangadhar

That lie that was being propagated then as well as today i countered also on this forum last March. Here is the counter to the misinformation that was being propagated then as well as now:

Harbans Wrote

Territory still plays a big part in the law of the sea. States' territorial claims have expanded considerably since the 18th century. Two hundred miles offshore (when I say mile, I mean the nautical mile, which is 6076 feet, or 1.150779 statute miles) is the limit of a State's potential exclusive economic zone. I say potential because States must claim the territory they want within this limit, and not all of them do so. In this zone the State has some exclusive rights to exploration and resources. However, other States' ships have a right of innocent passage through the EEZ, just as Grotius argued.

The next territorial boundary marks the State's potential contiguous zone, which extends 24 miles offshore. Within this zone, a coastal state can stop and inspect vessels and act to punish (or prevent) violations of its laws within its territory or territorial waters. The contiguous zone solves a vexing problem. As Malcolm Evans describes it:

Traditionally, where the territorial sea ends, the high seas began and the laws of the coastal State no longer apply. However, policing maritime zones is no easy matter and, unlike land boundaries, they are simple to cross. It would therefore be easy for vessels to commit offences within the territorial sea but to evade arrest by moving just a little further seaward. The answer is to permit coastal States to arrest vessels outside their territorial seas in connection with offences that either have been committed or which it is suspected are going to be committed within their territorial sea.

In 1999 President Clinton extended the U.S.'s contiguous zone from 12 to 24 miles.

The potential territorial sea extends 12 miles off the coast. Here the State has territorial jurisdiction, but only up to a point--the right of innocent passage still applies. The LOSC says:

1. The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases:

(a) if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State;

(b) if the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea;

(c) if the assistance of the local authorities has been requested by the master of the ship or by a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State; or

(d) if such measures are necessary for the suppression of illicit traffic in narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances.

Because coastal State jurisdiction is limited, even in its territorial waters, the flag State's laws still apply aboard its ships. U.S. courts adjudicate crimes committed aboard ships flying U.S. flags, even if the crime was committed in foreign territorial waters.

In INternational waters are you beyond the scope of the Law?

Above thus i pointed out the exceptions in the jurisdiction law to what the Italians were saying. Actually in addition same post i pointed out not only that but:

Even on the high seas, a foreign flag vessel isn't completely exempt from the jurisdiction of other States--vessels are subject to ''visit'' and arrest under certain circumstances. LOSC also provides a right of hot pursuit. According to Article 111,

The hot pursuit of a foreign ship may be undertaken when the competent authorities of the coastal State have good reason to believe that the ship has violated the laws and regulations of that State. Such pursuit must be commenced when the foreign ship or one of its boats is within the internal waters, the archipelagic waters, the territorial sea or the contiguous zone of the pursuing State, and may only be continued outside the territorial sea or the contiguous zone if the pursuit has not been interrupted.

As a nod to the territorial principle, "The right of hot pursuit ceases as soon as the ship pursued enters the territorial sea of its own State or of a third State." States can also agree to permit another state to arrest vessels flying their flags.

Even as this justifies India's case, there is an example the US courts have ruled in a case:

Even if none of these exceptions apply, U.S. courts have held that arrest in violation of international law doesn't necessarily bar prosecution. For example, in United States v. Postal, the defendants were U.S. nationals arrested on board a vessel registered in the Grand Cayman Islands, 16 miles from shore (which at the time was the high seas). The United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit found that though the arrest violated the Convention on the High Seas (1958), the treaty violation didn't impair the court's jurisdiction. The Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit followed suit in 2002. So on the high seas not only are you not beyond the reach of any nation, sometimes you're with the reach of two.

These below define India's contiguous zone as extending to 24 Nm..


5. (1) The contiguous zone of India (hereinafter referred to as the contiguous zone) is and area beyond and adjacent to the territorial waters and the limit of the contiguous zone is the line every point of which is at a distance of twenty-four nautical miles from the nearest point of the baseline referred to in sub-section (2) of section 3.
(2) Notwithstanding anything contained in sub-section (1), the Central Government may, whenever it considers necessary so to do having regard to International Law and State practice, alter, by notification in the Official Gazette, the limit of the contiguous zone.

This above notification i pointed to a GOi document here:

mea.gov.in/mystart.php?id=500412023

1. So even if the ship is outside Indian territorial waters (12 Nm), it at 22 Nm is inside it's contiguous zone.

2. Even if the Ship is outside Indian contiguous zon (24 Nm), India reserves the right to hot pursuit, till the ship enters another countrie's territorial waters or contiguous zone.

3. Indian courts have to right to jurisdicate as the killings have technically taken place on Indian soil.

I don't see how the Italians have any case even under International law. Remember any fudging of these 3 documents: GPS Log, Official Deck Log book, relevant passage Charts, Passage plan is a violation too. The Captain may be jailed for a longer term than the consequences of an unintentional homicide may incur which then will be an altogether different case.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... w#p1253080

You will see in the above several posts i made that pointed out how strong India's case was. I posted similarly in many forums across. Yet the point always pushed through was Italians have jurisdiction, and that because of an enraged community in India the GoI has to conduct trial here.

Then when the Italians were sent to Xmas and returned, i thought Italy has obviously softened it's stance on jurisdiction under Article 92 and 94 of UNCLOS also. So basically the Italians now had no reason apart from 2 to not return:

1. India's failure to understand it's right under International law. The SC was seeing through the flag state prism IMO. And thus there was a kind of deal to have some sort of trial and weaken public opinion so that they may return.
2. That they were supposed to return but have turned been now given some reason last 24 hours to think about it and re raise the controversy that they have always stood by, the jurisdiction issue.

Also now that the Marines are most unlikely to return the Europeans and the Italians will certainly turn to this particular issue in this case. If the matter goes to international court. If at we have a slender chance to get them back despite all the above and more that i had written last year and which still stands today in an international tribunal if the Maritime lawyers in the know wish, we will have to certainly take a deeper, harder and more critical look and rectify lapses in our criminal justice system. An arrogant attitude 'i don't care what others think' will not get the marines back for sure. And it's highly unlikely the Europeans are going to play moral low ground here. The Abu Salem example should have struck most here before. This forum is being degraded by some of the hyper 'nationalists' who call anyone a rabid anti nationalist at the drop of a hat. Of course none of them were around last year contributing anything to the discussion on why India is legally justified to keep and try the Italian Marines in India.

[Klaus]

Article 124(4) of the Indian constitution states:

A Judge of the Supreme Court shall not be removed from his office except by an order of the President passed after an address by each House of Parliament supported by a majority of the total membership of that House and by a majority of not less than two-thirds of the members of that House present and voting has been presented to the President in the same session for such removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity.

— Article 124(4), Constitution of India , Source:

If we can bring the information of the Italian postal ballot system to the notice of a few Members of Parliament, it is possible to introduce a debate within both houses of Parliament. If there is strong consensus on this issue, it might even be possible to move forward with the impeachment process of the CJI on grounds of incapacity.

A lot of ifs, however the effort needs to be put in. Regardless of the fact that the current CJI retires from the position on 18th of July 2013, which is about 4 months away.

[Rajput]

Why are you linking RS hanging with the italian marines? What moral high ground are you talking about? and who's?

. . . .
Italians: Oh and the undertrial in the most high profile case underway just hanged himself in a cell with 3 others..and you say your justice system is fair?
Indians: But, but..

What is your response? What is India's response?

By this token, the Israelis shouldn't be able to try anyone, since their most famous secret prisoner committed suicide? Are you saying there has never been suicide in an Italian prison?? Here, read this: http://msl.rsmjournals.com/content/46/2/127.short

This is ridiculous; both of us know it.

The funniest part is: even I, a non-Italian, know that you don't have to go to Italy to vote! My Italian friends go to the local consulate. The fact that the Italian ambassador used such a lame and false excuse shows the utter disdain he has for India and Indians. It is shameful, and you all know it.

[harbans]

By this token, the Israelis shouldn't be able to try anyone, since their most famous secret prisoner committed suicide? Are you saying there has never been suicide in an Italian prison?? Here, read this:

Sure. And it happens everywhere. But now what after the situation? Will you raise open fly torn shirt arguments in an international tribunal or a Italian military court? What if the undertaking for extraditing Abu Salem and 2 others with him was no death sentence. And we agreed. When the first of the 3 came we promptly hanged him. Do you think then that they would have sent Abu Salem back to India. Who would you reserve the brickbats for then, the Govt or Portugal? Would you not be right to say that Portugal is now justified in not sending Abu Salem?

Of course the Govt is fkkin it up big time. And i have been pointing that out since more than a year before most of you have reacted today. Now the game has changed. Europe has always raised these kind of rights issues and they will become prominent even more so as we expose India's right to jurisdiction under international law as i have posted above and since last year. I know there are lots who want to extradite the Dalai Lama to China, but why does India not do it? Some high ground?

[Sanku]

http://www.fakingnews.com/2013/03/italy ... -by-india/

Italy asks its troops to be ready for strong unhappiness by India
Published on March 11, 2013by Pagal Patrakar
Rome, Italy. Anticipating a strong wave of “unhappiness”, “discomfort” and “objections” from India after they refused to send the marines back, Italy has asked its citizens and armed forces to be ready to deal with any such eventuality.
“We have ordered millions of earplugs, oil, cleaning buds, dark glasses, chewing gum, and similar artillery to deal with the massive verbal onslaught that we expect India to unleash upon us,” Giampaolo di Paola, the Defense Minister of Italy revealed.

An Italian kid rehearsing the official steps suggested by the government to deal with the Indian attack
Reports say that before taking the decision of not sending back the marines, accused of killing Indian fishermen, the government of Italy had called a top level meeting where they concluded that Italy must be ready to face the consequences.
“Half of our worries were taken care of as we don’t play cricket,” an official in the Foreign Ministry of Italy told Faking News, “The only big threat remaining was India expressing strong disapproval.”
Sources reveal that top management of Ferrari was also called in by the Italian government to know how they dealt with the “strong objections” by the government of India when the car manufacturing company had decided to show support for the accused Italian marines during the Indian Grand Prix four months back.
“Ferrari officials first laughed, and then told us to ‘chill’, but when we insisted, they told us to make sure that we just nod our heads when India registers a strong protest, but not to laugh audibly as this could cause a prolonged session of protest,” an Italian source claimed.
Latest reports confirm that the government of Italy was already practicing the “counter offensive”.
“India and Italy are matured nations. We respect India as the largest democracy of the world and an emerging superpower. We hope this matter will be resolved amicably,” Giulio Terzi Sant’Agata, the Foreign Minister of Italy said without giggling or smiling even for a second.
Back home, the government of India was trying to find the ‘register’ button online to register a strong protest.

[Sanku]

By this token, the Israelis shouldn't be able to try anyone, since their most famous secret prisoner committed suicide? Are you saying there has never been suicide in an Italian prison?? Here, read this:

Sure. And it happens everywhere. But now what after the situation?

The answer has been provided by faking news.

We will protest.

Will you raise open fly torn shirt arguments in an international tribunal or a Italian military court?

I will try and point the faking news team to this page, even they cant come up with such brilliant stuff.

[Yayavar]

This is the time for MMS-Sonia combine to get the marines back from Italy - that will really give them a bright glow in Indian media that will last for next 2 elections. Can they do that?

[Chandragupta]

This is the time for MMS-Sonia combine to get the marines back from Italy - that will really give them a bright
glow in Indian media that will last for next 2 elections. Can they do that?

If the return of the Italian marines aids Maino in next elections, I'd rather not have them back, live in shame for the next one year and have (hopefully) a Modi led government reinstate the pride of the country.

[rsingh]

On other hand
-We had to feed them 5* food for 10 years
-Still one day they were to be released
-Kins of dead fishermen compensated
-Now Italians are under pressure
-We can make them cooperate on Westland deal while case goes to ICC etc

IMO it was a smart move. This is how diplomacy works. Do not cry for loss of imaginary loss of H&D , think in long term. Guy who think we should "arrest the Ambassador" is hilarious......but then BRF OPEN to everybody.

[ramana]

...

If we can bring the information of the Italian postal ballot system to the notice of a few Members of Parliament, it is possible to introduce a debate within both houses of Parliament. If there is strong consensus on this issue, it might even be possible to move forward with the impeachment process of the CJI on grounds of incapacity.
A lot of ifs, however the effort needs to be put in. Regardless of the fact that the current CJI retires from the position on 18th of July 2013, which is about 4 months away.

First of all you don't get it.

It was decided in INC interests to let the Italian marines go from the begining.

It was a matter of how and not if.

CJI has rendered exemplary services to INC and most likely will get a Governor job or Law Commission type of job.

----

rsingh, thats a Chunkian(like in Pandey) explanation!!!

[Sanku]

-We can make them cooperate on Westland deal while case goes to ICC etc

The whole premise of the thread is based on this cooperation Sir.

GoI has not been made C***** by default, it has actively worked towards making a mockery of Indian legal system for specific ends.

[anupmisra]

So the Congress leadership decided to make the prisoner exchange - Italian Marines in exchange for the Maino-Gandhis.

Perhaps a better exchange could be to threaten Italy by sending Soniaji if they do not return the marines.

[member_22872]

Sonia Maino served them well, they will honor her, might send her back to India as their ambassador...after all she knows more about India than Indians themselves.

[RajeshA]

As far as I am concerned, bringing back the Italian Marines is now secondary for Indian justice to regain respect. Now the primary issue for justice is who were the ones who colluded to deliberately let the Italian Marines leave, and thus perverted the course of justice.

Even though the death of two innocent fishermen at the hands of Italian Marines is shocking, the accusation of treachery to the Indian nation is also very grave.

If the Italians are not tried in India with an Indian Judge sitting over the proceedings and passing his judgment, thus asserting the power of the Indian state, justice is really not worth seeking if we have to go to some court in Europe with open hands pleading Europeans to give us justice! What good is that justice!

So what is important is to find the traitors who let those murderers go, and to treat THOSE traitors with Indian Justice! Only when the Traitors are hanged, we should proceed to go after the Italians. They can be bumped off somewhere. It doesn't really matter!

But now the Traitors come first! The Noose awaits!

[RajeshA]

Sonia Gandhi when she absconds to Italy for her corruption and treachery, this is the exact kind of Italian arrogance she would be hoping would stop the Indians from getting their hands on her!

[RamaY]

Actually India should stop doing anything until it builds at least 3 toilets per head.

[Manish_Sharma]

Sure. And it happens everywhere. But now what after the situation? Will you raise open fly torn shirt arguments in an international tribunal or a Italian military court?

So first you make a statement like:

Baikul Ji, we cannot develop any response now. The high ground has been lost yesterday at Tihar. The Italians have every right not to send their marines to India for trial or sentencing after what happened yesterday. I hope the teeming hordes that were joyous with glee yesterday do realize the implications of the act. There is no high ground from which one can now take any action against the marines.

When the links of pathetic state of italian prisons is brought to you:

http://internetphd95.blogspot.in/2012/0 ... de-in.html

http://www.lifeinitaly.com/news/en/156872

http://hiiraan.com/news4/2013/Jan/27607 ... tiary.aspx

Being a good dharmic person, holding high moral ground you should admit your mistake, thank me for opening your eyes by providing these links. Instead you still try to brush aside these facts with 'you raise open fly torn shirt arguments.....'. Hmmm are those super high moral values are for rashtra only; not for you or others?

[Rony]

India may ask Italian envoy to leave

Stunned by Italy going back on its sovereign assurance on the return of the Italian marines facing trial in India for killing two fishermen, the External Affairs ministry Tuesday summoned Italian ambassador Daniele Mancini and read him the riot act.His expulsion, sources said, is being actively considered as one of the options New Delhi can exercise in response to Rome's sudden decision that was announced late on Monday.

The diplomatic options discussed include minimum diplomatic contact with Italy — like India has with Denmark in recent years over the Kim Davy extradition issue — or snapping all diplomatic ties which includes closing its mission in Rome and asking the Italians to shut theirs in India, cancelling business contracts with Italian companies and stopping all diplomatic visits by either side, sources said.

Is it just to fool the Indians again or do they really mean it ? I think its the former but time will tell !

Sources said the pace and extent of escalation will have to be a political call. "All options are being explored with their pros and cons, but the political leadership has to decide which one to opt for," a source said.

There you go !

Left MPs who met the Prime Minister said Singh told them Italy's decision was "unacceptable". However, PMO sources said Singh only told the delegation that the matter would be looked into and he will ask External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid to take up the issue with Italy.

Napunsak Singh as expected and the twist the MPs and Media gave to it are also as expected !

Vinayaka save this nation from these arseholes !

[Sushupti]

Mani Shankar Aiyer on CNN-IBN:

"Marines are ready to come but new Govt in Italy doesn't want them to come".

If true, someone in new Italian Govt is really pissed off with signora here.

[RajeshA]

Actually India should stop doing anything until it builds at least 3 toilets per head.

The amount of vomiting a head has to do due to this government, 3 toilets may not be enough!

[RamaY]

India may ask Italian envoy to leave

Someone predicted this (Philip?).

This will be same as stopping talks with Pakis. Italy is Christian Pakistan.

Like with Pakistan issue in recent Ajmer Durga, we will have Congress-System will have dhimmi Hindus forgive Italians in return for Christian votes, while Indian Christians claim patriotism.

I bet 1Euro that we will soon see some church organizations demand Italy to return the marines.

[harbans]

Ajatshatru ji, what happened yesterday at Tihar was a major blunder. Specially so as far as this case goes. It happened early morning. By late night on the 11th there was a note verbale to the Indians telling that there is a controversy been established and so the Italians will not be returning. Most people in the glee of Ram Singh's death were oblivious of the danger such 'natural justice' can pose. Already we are all aware here that the Europeans are fussy on these matters. A case where the jurisdiction was controversial, the case gone on for a year, a politically potent issue for the Italian Govt, the morning of 11th the death of an under trial prisoner would have been a god send to a smart Italian lawyer. The Govt of Italy picked this up and even while the issue was smattering headlines across India, gave a note verbale to India. Coincidence? I personally don't believe in that.

The average Italian or European for that matters still does not have a high regard for the rights in the Indian justice system. Neither do most Indians themselves truthfully. In a year the Italians were here, nothing moved at all in the case. Neither the issue of jurisdiction was cleared, neither it was established where the vessel was at the time of the incident. Both those i took the pains a year back to show how they were possible, and i posted them above in this thread in the longish post with relevant links. Not one of the presently outraged folks looked at the jurisdiction issue then. Not one single media article i came across from any source in India pointed how and why India was justified. I did that both on this board and across several fora. So certainly after doing that i had a better handle of the issue compared to most here.

The conduct of the Indian judicial process was already under scanner. Italy was already making a big fuss at that time if you recall. The Italian consulate staffer standing physically and preventing the Italians being put into a cell etc. This statement had already been issued:

The government said in a statement Monday that "the conduct of Indian authorities violated international rights" by detaining them since last February. For one year the Italian government has been working to get the trial moved to Italian courts since the events took place aboard an Italian ship in international waters. The EU Commission "takes note of the statement by the Italian Foreign Minister Terzi", said the Commission.

EU wants solutions respectful of Law

Right or wrong irrespective, the Italians were hell bent on proving that Indian authorities have violated International rights as i have been saying since last year itself. It was me who spent valuable time searching the Maritime law and talking to people in the field to find out how positions of the ship with respect to jurisdiction could be established. And i posted that. That effort evoked little interest here and elsewhere in the media. All i could see is slanging matches between Italians saying Jurisdiction is ours and Indians saying that we will hang them irrespective. But hardly anyone wanted to know the reasons why Indian jurisdiction is acceptable under international law that i was trying to highlight.

The Italians obviously knew that there was tremendous misinformation within the Indian system regarding maritime law regarding such matters. The misinformation continues and i posted a link where Surya Gangadhar in IBN says that India has not jurisdiction right here on this thread.

There was no legal basis for India holding the Italians: Surya Balgangadhar

That is a lie that i exposed on this forum. None of the hyperventilating 'nationalists' did that or were bothered about the falsehoods coming out for more than a year. None was aware that sensitivity to under trial rights and judicial process particularly in this case is paramount for the very reasons that i have shown above. When the news about the death of Ram Singh came across it immediately struck me yesterday it's a big blunder. I posted that in emphatic terms yesterday itself and warning about repercussions for the same, when today this news blasted through. Irrespective of what the prison stats are as far as this case goes there was ammo/ justification for the Italians to take a decision that very day and issue the necessary note verbale. That was the justification made available that i pointed out to those that were feeling happy that 'justice' had been delivered. Of course our options are very limited now to hovering around zero. That is not difficult to see at all.

Info: Here's a link in first post that shows the documents the SC issued and who were the granters for the Italians. It's a lifafa for sure, but anyways the scanned documents are there. ToI and HT must have refused the blatant pro INC bias available in the article, so offered to firstpost.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/italian- ... 57882.html

[SwamyG]

It is wrong to say the Italians duped us. They didn't. This is a hostage exchange!

In India, when one buys vegetables, the vendor gives kothamir (dhanya), kari patha or some chillis free. If we were going to exchange, could India not offered them Buy 2 - Get 2 Free. We could have given them SG and RG too, no? I am sure a few lakhs would have given them a 'Bon Voyage' at the shipyard.

Added 1: Sending the envoy back, calling him and giving him an earful is what weak countries do. The diplomats dust off, and go to the next assignment (maybe to Pakistan). Italian government mumbles something, throws International Law, domestic law, domestic sentiment, weather, global warming, pollution etc. India ko laath paet ya gaand me maar seekana hain.


Added 2: I won't be surprised if J&K is given away too.........people are so fessed up and spent, they will not have energy to protest that onlee. The expectation from public is so low on INC, that INC can get away with anything now.

[RajeshA]

harbans ji,

don't we have a separate thread "Delhi Case Follow-up thread" for all issues to do with the Delhi rape and for the accused? What is the need for all that to be discussed here?

That is neither the first nor the last lapse that happened in our prison system. So why pick that one out? There is a separate thread for it!

[ramana]

Baikul Ji, we cannot develop any response now. The high ground has been lost yesterday at Tihar. The Italians have every right not to send their marines to India for trial or sentencing after what happened yesterday. I hope the teeming hordes that were joyous with glee yesterday do realize the implications of the act. There is no high ground from which one can now take any action against the marines.

harbans, This is a red herring. Ram Singh's death has nothing to do with the Italian Note Verbale which was delivered same day. It takes quite a while to create such documents. Not like typing up a letter and sending it to the MEA!!!
So please pursue Ram Singh and others in the other thread.

[Nikhil T]

1) No country allows people who have killed their citizens to go and live in the Embassy! The possession of the criminal is something agencies fight over, and here we have Indian Government allowing the Marines to go live in their Embassy! Whoever came up with this has to answer this! This is NOT Normal! They are not to be treated as guests, but are detainees awaiting trial.

2) There is no question of giving bail to anybody whose guilt in killing Indians has already been settled, the only question remaining about the circumstances. Even the questions about circumstances are immaterial because Indian blood has been spilled and the Indian state would have to make them pay! If the Italians had snatched away an Indian kid's ice-cream even for that he would have to pay!

3) There is no question of letting culprits leave the country and go beyond the country's jurisdiction. Who came up with the corny idea that they needed to go home for Christmas? How the hell does it matter if it is Christmas, Diwali or Eid? These Marines are guilty of killing Indians! There is no question of showing even 0.0001 % deference to such wishes! This is not even a question of human rights?

4) There is no question of letting culprits leave the country for voting! I mean this is so funny one feels like crying! Is this a question of human rights? Who gives a damn about the rights they enjoy in Italy as Italian citizens. Here they were to be dealt with according to Indian Law! Where does it say that detainees have such rights?

5) Even if one thought that they ought to be allowed to vote, they could have done that in the Italian Embassy. In fact voting is allowed through Diplomatic missions. Thousands of Italians living abroad would have availed of that facility. Why could these Italian Marines not have done that in their Embassy?

The only right these Italian Marines had was that of diplomatic counsel, where somebody from the Italian Embassy could visit them in an Indian jail! Absolutely no more privileges are foreseen in international law!

All Indians who are responsible for providing these Italian Marines, butchers of Indians, any more rights than those foreseen in international treaties, e.g. anything over and above diplomatic counsel before and during trial, should be arrested, declared traitors and shot in the head, and it should not matter if they are leaders of ruling parties, India's foreign minister, Supreme Court judges, or anybody else!

Traitors need to be shot!

Excellent post.

All day, I've been having *wet dreams* of Op Geronimo type extraction of both the Marines from their rural Italian homes....BUT on more serious note - Let's get back from rhetoric of rabid retribution and focus more on factors that let the Italian go away with murder (literally). Let's also keep aside any possible quid-pro-quo with the choppers case, to examine facts.

1) It was the INC and GOI who WILLFULLY did not set up a Special Court as ordered by the SC to try the two marines. I talked to a family friend who is a High Court lawyer and he said that setting up a court is as easy as finding a spare room in Vigyan Bhawan in Delhi and nominating a judge in consultation with the CJI. He said there have been umpteen past precedents of doing this, so its inconceivable that the GoI could have a genuine reason for not moving its feet for ~50 days now (Jan 18 to March 10).

A second instance to nail GoI in its coffin is the Prisoner Exchange treaty with Italy. While we did sign the treaty before the Marines case, we DID NOT have to RATIFY it in Dec 2012. If GoI was really looking after Indian interests, why the hurry to ratify this treaty when there is a case of national pride involved?

Finally, if what other posters have said is true, that Italy allows postal votes - then isn't it GOI's lawyer or prosecutor's job to bring this fact to court? Isn't this Step number #1, when you put yourself in the GoI's lawyer's shoes? But again, a treachery.

2) Now, when Indians are ready to sell the nation (through special treatments, allowances for home visits and dragging feet on setting up courts), why blame the Italians for what they did? After all, if we don't respect our own SC's orders when asked to set up a court, why the hell would a rich, ex-colonial power care?

3) Finally, onto question of retribution. Any real retribution has to come from the GoI - economically, diplomatically etc. But here's the irony. It is the GoI who botched this case willfully. So why are we expecting any retribution on this?

This is typical INC tamasha. Everything is a game to stay in power. Everything.

[SriKumar]

Posting an old news article in this thread as a point of contrast.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/norwa ... ces-299862
Indian couple were charged in Norway, about 1-2 years after the events took place. They returned to India, and were asked to come back to stand trial. They voluntarily went back, were found guilty and are in jail.

External Affairs minister Salman Kurshid said it wont intervene . Jurisdiction reasons....or perhaps it is Satyameva jayate.....

"See this is an issue that does not relate to the government but the private citizen and it relates to the local law of that country... Sometimes we express concern for something that happen to citizens of our country but within the parameters for the law that abide by those country because there is public interest and concern... we will make contact and do whatever is appropriate," said External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid.