Indian Education System

[Bade]

The original assertion was Indian kids due to their secular education are cutoff from their roots, which results in inability to work cohesively.

NRI kids along with other migrant kids to foreign countries, are definitely more cutoff from their roots, than their cousins left behind. They also get a secular education mostly, and still do very well in all walks of life. So something is wrong with the attribution of secular education as the sole cause of ills seen in India.

As an aside, NRI kids of the current generation are more exposed to Indian roots, than a few generation before (60's to 80's) due to larger numbers in urban areas. But the older generation ones without this exposure are doing fine too.

[Aditya_V]

Bade, one key difference, NRI kids are not taught in thier textbooks they were a bunch of oppressors or oppressed, losers and cowards. Something which Indian kids go through while reading NCERT.

[Bade]

IISERs are now inviting round the year applications for faculty positions. Interested young post-docs looking for a better life should follow the ads placed by each institute. I saw one in Physics Today.

[SaiK]

Any hair braid analyzers?

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/c ... epage=true
Indian academe is anguished that not a single Indian university has made it to the top 200 universities of the world

The endowment of Harvard University is around $31 billion — more than 1/4 th of the GDP of Tamil Nadu.

Is it then surprising that of the top 200 universities, 76 are in the United States and 196, no less, in the developed countries (two from China, and one each from South Africa and Brazil are the only ones from the developing countries)? [76 from the U.S. and 196 in all from the developed countries. This includes the 76 from the U.S.] The crisis afflicting universities is thus, not an Indian phenomenon alone, but generalised across the “Third World.”

Our academic culture is marked by patronage and networks or by bureaucratic hierarchies of seniority and administrative positions.

issues of representation without raising those of pedagogy and curriculum. There is a stalemate between merit and adequate representation.

social breakdown has rarely contributed to new ideas and energies

Students are not trained to become critical thinkers, but foot soldiers of the establishment.

rest is a read..

[ashish raval]

^^ all this top xx crap does not mean anything on what a country can do. If a country is solid in imparting basic science and mathematics to its kids they will do wonders in the applied fields at the later stage.

[krisna]

Around 7% cut in school education, literacy budget

The government has imposed around 7% cut in the Rs. 45,000 crore school education and literacy budget to control expenditure in view of the economic slowdown.

Now, with the 7% reduction, the SSA programme will be hit by about 20%, they said.

The sources said budget for higher education sector has also been reduced by about 13%, which had got Rs. 15,458 crore.

wrong areas to cut expenditure.
defence and on child/women expenditures are a necessity, not a luxury.
They must never be cut at any cost.

[Singha]

govt schools were heavily underfunded as it were.

but more cash is sought to be mopped for giveaway election oriented bribery schemes.

[Vayutuvan]

wrong areas to cut expenditure.
defence and on child/women expenditures are a necessity, not a luxury.
They must never be cut at any cost.

Absolutely. This is v. v. wrong headed - what are they thinking?

[Aditya_V]

Looks like we will now take cash from education/defence and give it people to directly buy liquor. this is a disaster

[prashanth]

IIM-A director may get Rs 1 crore pay package

This is sick. Im not clear why the IIMs are hyped to the extent they are. I am of a firm opinion that only experience can teach 'management', and a 'management degree' is an over aggrandized version for macaulay era clerical education. As it is, most of the MBA's end up in Goldman Sachs or Deutsch bank type corporations. Have seen many IIT grads opting MBA for money.

Instead, increase the pay of faculty and directors of IIT and other research institutes. Relax rules for procurement of equipments and cut the red tape. Only then will we have any hope for the scientific and technological future of this country.

PS: Apologies if I have hurt anyone's sentiments here.

[SaiK]

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/f ... epage=true

First set up the labs, then dream the Nobel
Sriram Balasubramanian
Few Indians are willing to pursue a career in research in their own country as the enabling environment for it is missing

At the 100th annual session of the Indian Science Congress held in Kolkata earlier this month, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh urged scientists to give top priority to research that would address pressing problems in the country, such as energy security, agricultural productivity, safe drinking water and sanitation. He asked scientists across disciplines to collaborate with one another, and with private research labs to foster innovation that would improve living conditions in India.

Last in retaining talent

But if that is to happen, the country would first need an environment for research. A recent survey by the National Bureau of Economic Research in the United States (http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/tech-c ... rain-trade) contains some revealing numbers. Switzerland has the highest rate of immigrant scientists and the United States, unsurprisingly, is the most popular academic destination around the world. But shockingly for India, 40 per cent of its researchers are emigrating to pursue their research abroad; the aspiring economic powerhouse is at the bottom of the list for retaining research talent. So why does a country with a trillion dollar economy not attract its own researchers? A peek into the state of research in India can give some answers.

In 2011, of the 14,617,000 people who graduated from the colleges in India, 12 per cent pursued post graduate degrees and an abysmal one per cent pursued research in the country. The low interest in research is due to sub standard facilities, which in turn is due to a lack of funding in most research institutes. Indians are willing to pursue research but not in India. In 2011, the number of students from India pursuing higher education (masters and PhD) in the U.S. was 103,895 and they formed 14 per cent of the higher education population in the U.S. alone.

In terms of research productivity, India has 7.8 scientists per 1,000 population compared to 180.66 in Canada, 53.13 in Korea and 21.15 in the U.S. The scarcity in research was vindicated by the number of patents filed in 2010. There were a total of 36,812 patents filed in India, of which only 7,044 were domestic applications and the remaining, foreign patent applications. Of these 7,044 applications, only 1,725 applications were granted patents. While quantity is not necessarily a prescriptive of the quality, it does provide a perspective on emphasis on research in the system.

One of the pillars of higher educational institutes, leave alone research, is the amount of capital that is invested in educational activities. Even in the 12th Five Year Plan proposed by the Planning Commission, the educational expenditure is not anywhere near the proposed target of six per cent of GDP. The investment in higher education as of 2009-10 according to a recent report released by the University Grants Commission (“Higher Education at a glance”) was a paltry 1.25 per cent of GDP. The U.S. on the other hand has a public expenditure at 3.1 per cent (2007) of its almost $15 trillion GDP. Harvard University’s endowment stands at $32 billion whereas the total extramural grants provided to Indian universities put together is about Rs.12 billion! As a first step up, there should be an increase in spending in higher education research to at least two per cent of the GDP in order to try infusing capital into academic research.

The policy document released at the Science Congress in the first week of January was titled “Science, Technology and Innovation.” It contained no details, no road map for research, and was more aspirational than visionary. Besides everything else, India does not enable scientists and corporates to make more revenues from their intellectual property rights. Not only does India suffer from the lack of a culture of research or shortage of funds, but there is also a lack of clarity in matters such as Intellectual Property regulations that could help researchers earn greater revenues.

The Protection and Utilisation of Public Funded Intellectual Property Bill, (PUPFIP), the Indian equivalent of the Bayh-Dohle Act, has been pending in Parliament since 2008. If passed, it could help to leverage the best out of the intellectual properties of patents. A recent report from the Indian School Business (“India R&D 2011 — Industry & Academia Linkages”) estimates that the total R&D spending of the top 100 companies is Rs.11,500 crore. Only 13 per cent of it goes into partnerships with universities. Intellectual property regulation and awareness could assist in increasing this share of spending by corporates in building university research centres.

Alumni involvement

The top 19 out of the 20 universities in the U.S. News rankings have a common dominating denominator. All of them are run predominately by alumni of the institutions. Even in public universities such as Purdue, there is a significant alumni involvement in the boards. In India, this is an idea nonexistent in government institutes and very rare in private institutes.

Alumni involvement ensures that the universities’ interest is the most supreme (especially in an era where education is non profit) and everything else becomes secondary. As such, it would be an interesting idea for the state to impose a minimum 50 per cent involvement of the alumni in the functioning of university boards. This would democratise the process more, and help to nurture talented alumni who could contribute back to the universities.

President Pranab Mukherjee observed at the Science Congress that a Nobel Prize in Indian science was “long overdue,” as if every country has a predetermined right to be given the Nobel. Let’s get the research going first.

(Sriram Balasubramanian is a journalist and writer. Email: [email protected] and Twitter @Sriram316)

[Aditya_V]

IIM-A director may get Rs 1 crore pay package

This is sick. Im not clear why the IIMs are hyped to the extent they are. I am of a firm opinion that only experience can teach 'management', and a 'management degree' is an over aggrandized version for macaulay era clerical education. As it is, most of the MBA's end up in Goldman Sachs or Deutsch bank type corporations. Have seen many IIT grads opting MBA for money.

Instead, increase the pay of faculty and directors of IIT and other research institutes. Relax rules for procurement of equipments and cut the red tape. Only then will we have any hope for the scientific and technological future of this country.

PS: Apologies if I have hurt anyone's sentiments here.

This MBA fetish is our elite way of saying only MBA good all other bad, all our Elite children today get an MBA from Massa. Its kind of alumini which stops others from getting the top jobs.

I know there are many brilliant people who are MBA's but not all MBA's are brilliant or all Non MBA's not brilliant.

Management will need to do hard years on the ground before they learn how to manage things.

Lets see I see this fetish ending in next 20 years with real word experiences.

[member_23629]

IIM-A director may get Rs 1 crore pay package

This is sick. Im not clear why the IIMs are hyped to the extent they are. I am of a firm opinion that only experience can teach 'management', and a 'management degree' is an over aggrandized version for macaulay era clerical education. As it is, most of the MBA's end up in Goldman Sachs or Deutsch bank type corporations. Have seen many IIT grads opting MBA for money.

Instead, increase the pay of faculty and directors of IIT and other research institutes. Relax rules for procurement of equipments and cut the red tape. Only then will we have any hope for the scientific and technological future of this country.

PS: Apologies if I have hurt anyone's sentiments here.

MBA is totally over-hyped. In my several jobs, I have seen the MBA youngsters, in their twenties, wreck havoc on a team of much more experienced people. Just studying for two years in management college is no substitute for the wisdom gained over the years from field experience. To manage you need maturity and high emotional quotient. These MBA youngsters take years to gain that and shed their massive ego that comes from the immaturity of the youth. This MBA degree is a modern American fad which gives an excuse to youngsters to jump over much more experienced and mature people. The golden rule should be: To reach the top, you have to start at the bottom. Five years in the trenches with the troops do wonders to your attitude.

Businessmen have existed for thousands of years -- Gujarati businessmen have been trading with the rest of the world since the Roman times and created enormous wealth -- they never needed any MBA degree. Their sons learnt the ropes by sitting next to them in the shop.

[Aditya_V]

Auto-rickshaw driver's daughter tops CA exam

[SaiK]

http://www.thehindu.com/education/colle ... epage=true
reversal happens at anna
students:
many of these professors too refrain from taking classes,

but;

N. Balachandran, former professor, Anna University, says the inability of engineering students to cope with mathematics in the college curriculum has always existed but has worsened over the years.

“Engineering mathematics has to do with application. Most students are not ready for that because they way they approach mathematics in school is very text-book oriented. That does not work in college,” he said. “Students seldom take an interest in mathematics. Few go to the library, borrow books and try out sums on their own. For most, it is a subject to be done away with as soon as possible,” he added.

[Mort Walker]

^^^This is true in the US as well in many universities.

Many engineering students, not all, are weak in dimensional analysis and rigorous vector calculus. These students in all engineering disciplines need more courses in physics at the undergraduate level. A course in classical mechanics, E&M, and quantum mechanics where they bust their butt and solve lots of problems.

[kasthuri]

I have to say that while we rant about the state of affairs in physics and mathematics in India, I think we are quite *okay*. Obviously it is natural for any faculty of a particular field to see the inadequacy in that field. We really have good places like CMI, MatScience, IISc etc. which excel in mat/phy and to a degree computer science. I agree only few students flock to these places and engineering gets diluted because of mass flocking. We should only look into the fields of bioinformatics and computational biology to see how varied the landscape is. In an Indian forum sometime back, folks surprised me by asking if there are such fields at all...

[Mort Walker]

^^^Most of those who made it out of high school and in to a reputable engineering college are fairly sound in math and physics. The problem is that this percentage of students is very small out of total high school matriculation. Often our judgement is clouded because of the same type company we keep.

[SaiK]

^^^This is true in the US as well in many universities.

Many engineering students, not all, are weak in dimensional analysis and rigorous vector calculus. These students in all engineering disciplines need more courses in physics at the undergraduate level. A course in classical mechanics, E&M, and quantum mechanics where they bust their butt and solve lots of problems.

Mort, if you plan to do skype lessons., let me know too.

[svenkat]

An endearing teacher passes away
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 452890.ece

[V_Raman]

Why It’s Never Mattered That America’s Schools ‘Lag’ Behind Other Countries

The United States has never ranked at the top of international education tests, since we began comparing countries in 1964, yet has been the dominant economic and innovative force in the world the entire time.

The reason for the apparent disconnect is because schools don’t prepare students for the real world, so broad educational attainment will have a weak correlation with economic power. Research has consistently shown that on nearly every measure of education (instructional hours, class-size, enrollment, college preparation), what students learn in school does not translate into later life success. The United States has an abundance of the factors that likely do matter: access to the best immigrants, economic opportunity, and the best research facilities.

While the United States has a dismal track-record of inequality, we treat our brightest minds quite well. The “average test scores are mostly irrelevant as a measure of economic potential,” write Hal Salzman & Lindsay Lowell in the prestigious journal, Nature, “To produce leading-edge technology, one could argue that it is the numbers of high-performing students that is most important in the global economy.”

A quarter of CEOs in technology and science are foreign born and 76 percent hold key positions in engineering, technology, and management, according to Stanford researcher and TechCrunch contributor, Vivek Wadhwa.

“More than 40 percent of Fortune 500 companies in the U.S. were founded by immigrants or their children, and these firms alone employ over 10 million individuals. Some of our country’s most iconic brands – including IBM, Google, and Apple – were founded by an immigrant or the child of an immigrant. And nearly half of the top 50 venture-backed companies in the U.S. had at least one immigrant founder,” wrote Aol founder Steve Case (Aol is the parent company of TechCrunch).

And, our brightest native and immigrant minds are greeted with extraordinary research and economic opportunity. After World War II, the United States emerged as an economic superpower. Massive investment poured into universities and scientific research, which became the genesis for the Internet, itself.

While it’s difficult to speculate why the U.S. persists as a titan of innovation, we need not be scared into trying to be like other countries. America has been at the top in spite of a lack-luster education system.

Lesson for sdres who continuously berate ourselves masocistically about our education sytem.
Many sdres do well in uncle land due to ample opportunities for research facilities etc.
To have that, good education is a foundation which is provided but definitely can be improved.
At least immigration is oit of question other than illegal bdees which impairs our standards. But others we can do much more.
for a start berating ourselves should stop.

My daughter goes to middle school in USA and I can say that the system here is pretty hard. There is no pressure. But if you need to get straight As and go thru all those AP courses, you need to put in lot of effort. In addition you need to participate in math bowls, science bowls, make cars for competitions etc. to have well rounded resume to get into top schools. Many natives do it as well, and they are super smart. I used to think that the education system in USA is easy. But I am enlightened! Indian K-12 system cant even come close to the resources available here.

[RoyG]

^^Charter or magnet?

[Singha]

the US is a big country of 300 mil. its school AVERAGE will always lag well behind the small rich munna type countries.

but what matters is it has a critical mass of top performing high schools with very hard working students + a massive industrial and services economy and university system to absorb them. the munnas like finland or sweden have the schools but often not the economies so they also emigrate to the US looking for things to do or higher education.

same holds true for Cheen and India. India does not hide its low avg. Cheen does some H&D bjob by letting the surverys only measure a few top schools in a big metro like shanghai and take that as the china avg.

looking at success of indics/cheen abroad obviously both have a certain large number of schools that prepare students to face any mental challenge.

[V_Raman]

When Nehru and others were comteplating IITs, the discussion was that students coming out of these select schools will be able to take India forward. But they took USA forward by emigrating! What was/is missing is the industrial/research base to keep those students in India.

[V_Raman]

^^Charter or magnet?

Regular.

[Mort Walker]

^^Charter or magnet?

As V_Raman pointed out standard public school systems in the suburbs of large metros in the US are all quite good. However, it is up to the child and parent to make the most out of it. You don't have to participate in all of the math and science competitions or in advanced academic courses. If you want, you skate through on the minimal requirements for matriculation. The top 10% students of these places are the best anyone can find anywhere in the world including India.

[shaardula]

this weekend was the science fair at the local schools. first thing i realized was gone are the days of making a bulb glow with potatoes. every high school project these days is chichi sounding only. your average kid these days is separating protiens, jigging up arduino robots etc. all impressive.

anywho, two kids really stood out for me. one, chinese kid, had worked on a graph coverage problem. what i really liked about this kid is his earnestness, and how much he knew about the problem domain. another project i liked was by a desi kid, used queuing theory and stochastics to prove his science teacher that given the schedule of buses and variability in local traffic, there was no way to guarantee strictly before the bell arrival to first class. what i liked about him is his ability to translate abstracts concepts to mundane problems.

[V_Raman]

If anything needs to be improved in Indian Education System, especially high-school/Undergrad, it should be availability of non-academic opportunities organized/channeled through the schools -- science/math, robotics, cars, what not -- and excitement from that for higher level college/industry/research opportunities in India. This will go a long way in keeping the talent in India.

There are specific departments within each govt. agency in USA that handles this. for eg: NREL holds middle-school national level car (solar/batt/fuel-cell) competition where it sends out free kits (li-ion batt/motor/connector) to science teams to make a car that can carry a 1 pound box of salt over 20m.

we need to get our kids acclimatized with machines from an early age.

[Vayutuvan]

V_Raman ji, availability of academic opportunities is the first priority. Non-acad comes much later.

[RoyG]

Having taught science at a charter middle school I can say that these kids are now being trained to specialize in a particular field from a younger age. All the top private and magnet high schools schools would come over to fish for talent. There is more emphasis on differentiated instruction and cutting out the fluff from the curriculum. I would take my students outside and have them sit in a semicircle for some lectures, give them more experiments, more emphasis on technology, and have them tackle more abstract concepts. India had it right in ancient times. The whole Victorian traditional style classroom doesn't really work most of them time.

[Mort Walker]

For the middle class in India, a private English convent or the more expensive DPS type schools are better from KG to 6th compared with most suburban public schools in the US. The first thing is to get is reading, writing and arithmetic solid by age 10.

[SBajwa]

by V_raman
My daughter goes to middle school in USA and I can say that the system here is pretty hard. There is no pressure. But if you need to get straight As and go thru all those AP courses, you need to put in lot of effort. In addition you need to participate in math bowls, science bowls, make cars for competitions etc. to have well rounded resume to get into top schools. Many natives do it as well, and they are super smart. I used to think that the education system in USA is easy. But I am enlightened! Indian K-12 system cant even come close to the resources available here.

I agree!! 100%...

If a child declares that she/he wants to be an astronaut in 5th class. The school makes sure that the child

1. Gets to an advance math (AP) by 9th class with good grades so that by 11th all high school math/science is done and college math/science starts.
2. Gets to know what is involved in becoming an astronaut (movies/shows/interviews/etc)
3. Regular trips to the air shows through their "academic club".
4. Must be on the school Athletic club/etc. to be physically fit.

and so forth...

The well rounded education meaning

1. Child by the year 16th knows how to safely drive a car with all rules (by these standards an average car driver in India is a failure).

2. Child is encouraged to raise questions and is thoroughly provided with answers to satisfaction.

3. Child is encourage to participate in debates/dances/etc for social interaction (must required for any job these days).

4. Child by 3rd class starts using computers and hand written assignments are not accepted (only typed assignment either by paper or electronic format) after 5th class.

and so forth.

The whole education system is geared not towards scoring 100% for IITs, IAS, etc but towards a well rounded personality. I have seen many Indian students scoring highly on SATs but outright rejected by good colleges for not having contributed/participated in enough "social","cultural","athletic" events.

there is no comparison with Indian education vs USA education.

99% of the Indian parents are indeed involved and pushing their children towards a good well rounded education for their career.

40% of the USA parents are doing the same.

that's the difference!! USA families have too many broken homes and thus child does not get to fulfill his/her goals that he/she sets out with in the beginning.

[V_Raman]

Bajwa sir, I have always said to my gora colleagues here that they are barking up the wrong tree when they criticize the system/teachers. The post WWII generation put lot of effort to educate their kids and their achievements were amazing. Then they took it easy -- we have the current state.

Having the system in place in the greatest asset. Social trends change and will soon change in USA where more parents will start getting involved with their kids.

We need to build the system in India. We cannot give excuses anymore.

[SwamyG]

I have two kids in maasa, one in High school - went through elementary and middle school in maasa; another in elementary. While the public school system is phenomenal in maasa, one just cannot belittle or compare it with India school system. Most of us sitting in maasa, or elsewhere we came out of the same school system onlee. Sure there there are numerous improvements in line for desi system. Criticisms can be thrown around without belittling Indian education system, no?

While comparing countries, one needs to incorporate the best things from them; and not throw the baby with the bath water. The baby in case of Indian system is the "Indian requirements and conditions".

[V_Raman]

i am not belittling indian education system at all. as you mentioned, i am a product of the same excellent education/social system. i am pointing out some things that we could incorporate to enhance the education of our kids. we cannot continue to say that we should first have accessibility. i know that we are still trying to get 100s of millions out of poverty/no-education mode, but we cannot neglect the middle 100s of millions with just rote learning.

[SwamyG]

The pattern is Maasa based NRIs commenting pages after pages on Indian system based on the US system. Dhaaga talks more of US than Indian system. Some times I do feel us NRIs, OICs, foreign citizens should just shut up. Too much of whining from us.

[SBajwa]

by Raman
Having the system in place in the greatest asset.

That's what we NRIs strive!! the day I see Indian children becoming Einsteins of the world! I will be happy!!

by SwamyG
Some times I do feel us NRIs, OICs, foreign citizens should just shut up. Too much of whining from us.

I understand you!! I am only offering what we need to learn from education in USA which is to implement in India (as per my 45 years of life experience 20 years in India and 25 in USA)

1. Make sure Families are intact!!!
2. Make sure that maximum money is spent at primary educational level (5-12 years old) which 50% of the times means hiring good teachers in market (and not quota teachers as currently in India).

that's all!!!

I won't say anything else on this topic!!!

[RamaY]

Gurus uvacha on Pee-Cheddi Pograms

what is the process to apply for pee-cheddi program in massa? does the candidate need to have done some home work? how does it work? Will they get financial support? Can you shed some light?

I have a nephew who wants go pee-cheddi route after BTech...

YamaR,

Is this the nephew@SRM? If so, which year is he in?

For pee-chaddi, he needs to:
1) 1st decide whether he wants to do a pee-chaddi. A lot of SDREs see pee-chaddi as a way to get funding for doing degree in massa. If that is the primary motivation, best not to do it. Pee-chaddi takes a long time, is not for everybody, requires a lot of independence and thick skin to make it work. And it may hinder your overall earning ability (in most cases a pee-chaddi will have a phase delay in terms of earnings as compared to their peers who got out with MS) - ofcourse if one is lucky and gets into a position which requires pee-chaddi one earns more than any MS fella with equivalent experience (typically 1-2 grade levels more).

2) pee-chaddi students typically get funding support from department (Teaching Assistant) or school (Fellowship) or Advisor (Research Assistantship). In terms of desirability typically (Fellowship > RAship > TA ship in terms of stability. However, fellowships typically last 5 years and are not renewed. RAships typically pay best if advisor is flush with funds. TAships are most unstable and have to be renewed per semester (if lucky enough to get a TAship consistently) but pay does not fluctuate like RAship.

3) He needs to take GRE, TOEFL and TSE and possibly subject GRE. TOEFL+TSE stuff might have changed since when I took it so he needs to look up online for latest info. TSE = Test of Spoken English (or whatever its current equivalent is) is required if you are gonna teach a class (i.e. TA/Fellowship).

4) Have excellent grades in BTech. GRE/TOEFL/TSE are just filters - everything depends on your grades, SOP, previous research experience, good project work. In case of pee-chaddi at most good schools, if a candidate can't be funded, they won't get an admission offer. In case of MS one can get admission but not funding.

5) He needs to tap into his BTech univ's alumni network in massa especially those currently studying there. This is the best resource he can get apart from the internets. This is where IITs excel at coz thru these networks they know which profs at which univs have funding, in which areas, get an intro to approach them etc.

Adding to the above good advise from R B

Check which of his profs got peechaddi from massa and which school. Take thier courses do well and get their recos to their Alma maters. See if they are in touch with their advisors class/batchmates. Read up their current res papers. If your nephew wants to do peechaddi in those areas then write sop tailored to those professors. Do not write a boilerplate sop. Even if he is narrowly focused to do PhD in a particular subarea there is always scope for a little wiggleroom plus once he gets in there is no guarantee that he would stick to the original plan. Lots of variables like good advisors, departmental strengths, funding situation, currently popular buzzwords and in things, projection of jobs, once getting alittle deeper into the subarea then not liking it etc.

Also it is better not go to counsellors in India. Even if one goes to them under any circumstances do not let them write the sop, especially if heading for a pacchadi.

2nd sem ug and already preping for pechaddee? never too early to start i guess. but still a kid.

to what bose and mat have said, the main thing imho peechaddee is attitude. there is a lot of learning, but ultimately its not about courses, classes, exams, grades etc at that level. depending on the boss, no motivator even. drive has to come from inside, and need thick skin and the sort of dhairya that only ignorance can bring, to go through extended periods of uncertainty, and self doubt.

having good friends, and a well rounded personality very crucial.

at his level, i would encourage him to be an engineer and tinker with whatever catches his fancy, and see how much he likes going to no-mans land where you have to stich up a solution.

are the genius kinds born or made? and do all chaddi walas need to be genius and straight a guys/gals?

Straight A guys/gals rarely make good pee-chaddi students. Being a good exam taker does not a good researcher make.

I guess most of you have read the book "Men of Mathematics"...Although it is an old book, it is pretty good. Also see how Andrew Wiles focused on Fermat's theorem. And that guy who proved Poincare's conjecture..they are the real geniuses...

^^ There does seem to be some sort of in-born genius also in few folks( other than self made, hard working guys). Seen quite a few who are pretty lazy but are super-brilliant in anything they take up ( any techincal subject or even a non-tech thing). Guess thats what is called "god given talent"

To be a good researcher (in a field like Computer science), you need the following:

1. Creativity/novelty
2. Sound Math background
3. Capability to work hard
4. Ability to write well

Being exceptional in one of these might compensate for weaknesses in others, but on an average, people do need to have all these qualities.

My old professor always told me that Phd was about adding to human knowledge.
If you think you can contribute by advancing a particular field go for Phd. Else do go there, its not worth it.

Almost never is it about advancing ‘career’ prospect. Most researchers I know are poor as church mice. One geologist professor I know spends every dime he earns on field trips into the brutal wilds of Canada. Over the years 3 books have come from him with some very subtle discoveries and in one case finding some of the oldest rocks on earth. Wrote an entire book on that one, about 20,000 copies in circulation and is the acknowledged expert in that area. That is the sum total of his life’s accomplishments and he is considered very successful. For every one like him about 10 others flame out. Not everything in life is about a rat race.

If he wants to be a Phd type tell him his future is likely to be as a poor nomad, arguing and defend your every idea and discovery to violent attack. Credibility on the line with every word. But if he is right expect him to be declared a hero within his own small circle, don’t expect money or improving marriage prospects. I suspect researchers are the most divorced folks on earth with their 20 hour a day work style.

See if he still wants to do it....

^^^Or the greedy ones! Even a fresh-out wet behind the ears munna from Stan/Berkeley earns ~20-25% more than a newly tenured associate prof. there - causes mucho takleef after all everybody is human and true sant-giri is not everybody's cup of tea. The type of pee-chaddis which Theo saar describes are old school ones and their types are getting sparser like prime numbers. In CS/EE, pee-chaddis are no different in their worldly desires than YumBeeAye or MS types. And most pee-chaddis in the industry don't do anything which requires a pee-chaddi per se. But then that is not why pee-chaddi becomes useful. A person with pee-chaddi has shown the ability to explore and go down paths where no man has gone before and work on problems which are not well-defined. (most of them, as there are always khota sikkas). Plus in words of Mary Lou Jepsen, (when asked why she did a pee-chaddi) "A PhD opens doors."

Excuse the ignorance bliss, but don't you need to master-e-bate before you can pee-in-chaddi?

(My only academic experience is going through 4 years of BTech at a college in the midlands, in the highly diluted/modified/SDREfied system, hence the pooch. Most of the discussaion here about madrassa matters obviously go right way above my head.)

One can (and most IIT UGs do) apply for a pachhadi directly. Some places they would get an MS as soon as they finish MS requirements. They also would get a raise in their scholarships. Usually these would not opt for a MS thesis option because they would be continuing onto pacchadi (AvakAya) any way. There are also terminal MS programs with no scope for a pahad. If somebody had done a non-terminal MS, then that person can go for a pahad. The strat-e-jee for Indian kids is as follows:

0. One thing to realize is that nobody ever does pahad on their own money as there are funds available.

1. If one already knows that she wants to climb a pahad and has the burning desire to do so, then it is better to apply directly for pahad. Since the profs want students who are committed for the 5+ years it takes to finish, the chances of getting RAs is high. This is where IIT kids have an obvious upper hand as their IIT professors would have lots of connections and are on the conferences/symposium circuit.

2. Hedge the bets and apply for non-terminal MS. In this case, mostly only TA positions are open for them. It is a rare professor who would give an RA to a student who wants to go for MS only for the moment, because the prof knows that shee will lose the student in at most two years unless she is able to convince the student (if the student works out) to stay on. So, in this case, chances are that the student has to shell down the two year cost (or less depending on the number of course etc.) The advantage for the student, of course, is that if she thinks she is not 1) cut out for a pahad 2) wants to get into the industry for a while to get some practical experience (which is not a bad thing) or 3) needs to recoup the money spent on tuition.

3. There are some places (CalTech, CMU) who would allow students to go for a pahad straight out of high school. This is true with some European universities as well.

RamaY garu, a request. If you could please collect all the posts regarding the PhD and cross-post to the Indian Edu thread, that might be helpful to others also.

As for your list of priorities, I would put all the IITs, and universities in massa, UK, Canada and Ozland into one basket and order them. Also please include IISc, TIFR/BARC in that list. They are no slouches in most areas and would compare favorably with the 11-50 of massa, Unis other than Oxbridge, UMIST, Univ. Edinburg of UK, other than UBC, McGill of Canada, etc. Also an MTech from there is a valuable degree and is a stepping stone to get into the top schools in US, UK, Canada.

I know few pee-cheddis who are working as s/w testers.... mainly from eastern kingdom... I think a pee-cheddi in massa does the following

- gets free education (if you know whom to scratch)
- gets a job/opens doorsget
- gets a quick Green Card

Why spending $x0,000 if you can get all this free... what is so important about what you do for 5-6 yrs?...

only injuns are in a hurry to make money... and somehow think they have to get a job/house/wife/kids and so on before they hit 30....

matrimc garu, will do that...

Please consider business PhD too. B-schools pay well and there's a shortage of good business profs. If after PhD academia doesn't work for you, there's always an option of moving to management consulting. The highest paid prof at our uni. is a business professor and he earns a cool one million dollar p.a. based on published figures. Starting salaries are generally above 100K and there are jobs all over the world. Indics need to show their mettle in fields beyond IT and medicine. One caveat, acceptance rates in PhD programs at most top schools are around 5%.

I know few pee-cheddis who are working as s/w testers.... mainly from eastern kingdom... I think a pee-cheddi in massa does the following

- gets free education (if you know whom to scratch)
- gets a job/opens doorsget
- gets a quick Green Card

oh, I forgot the Green Card aspect though that cannot be the primary reason for GC and if it is, you will need to do a good pee-chaddi regardless. Most likely one would not even qualify for EB-1 GC unless one has pee-chaddi with some good publications/paper review work ityadi. And for SDREs this is a problem since EB-2 takes so many years for visa number to become available. Ofcourse pee-chaddi doesn't guarantee a EB-1 filing by KB (otherwise you have to do it yourself) but with MS onlee the odds are stacked against you. With pee-chaddi one can also escape the H1B visa lottery which is now coming back by going in for an O-1 visa, with MS you typically cannot. I learned that trick from MSR HR, got KB to agree to O-1 sponsorship and spend my last 2 months of talib-hood compiling the mounds of information, tons of recommendation letters and paperwork for O-1 and then that year USCIS didn't run out of H1B for like 6 frigging months!@#$% Ofcourse becoz of all that prior toil I didn't have to lift a finger for EB-1 and KB attorneys just slightly spiffied up the O-1 application documents and re-submitted them for EB-1 with nary a hitch.

Or like another lady I know who spend 12 years getting a phd in pet foods (not kidding) and now working as a sample tester insists on the Dr. before her name. I got the shock of my life seeing a Dr. on an airline ticket when we flew with her on vacation. I was imagining all kinds of lurid things if there really was a medical emergency on the flight and she offered the victim some dog food....

Many pee-chaddis are pretty vain about their 'Dr.'. In my case I take extra pains to hide it and actually have never used it with my name ever. The mind boggles at what would happen if I am woken from deep slumber in an airplane dreaming about Katrina and asked as a 'Dr.' to assist in delivering a baby mid-air.

RB, I am sure Stan profs can easily make millions or even billions if they would just get involved in industry. It is the theory folks who stay away from such things that has cause for jealousy.

(For billions, Jim Clark and David Cheriton comes to mind. I am sure there are others).

Saar its not that trivial. Sure some of them will but most still don't. David Cheriton, Mark Horowitz types or even lower down the cash cow scale (Terry Winnograd ityadi) are few in number. So plenty of non-theory ITvity profs too (and especially non-ITvity) who lust for big bucks. There have been plenty of cases past and present where newly tenured profs jumped ship from Stan/Hairbird/UCB to Chacha/Mickey/ChipZ to work as regular engineers. A few years ago there was a discrimination lawsuit filed by an aged prof who had jumped ship to Chacha and then got canned. An advantage of being tenured is you can do test-drive for a year atleast by using your sabbatical time to go work at some valley shop without immediately have to make a decision to jump tenure or not.

[schowdhuri]

I was going through the History (part of EVS) book with my son who is in class 6. It states that the Vedas, Puranas etc are religious literature . On the other hand, non-religious or secular literature are by poets and foreign travellers. Examples are Kautalya’s arthashastra, Megasthenes Indica, and the work of Chinese travellers like Hiuen Tsang. In other words ‘secular’ comes primary from non-Indic sources. The word secular appears multiple times in just two small paragraphs on literary sources of history.

This is only the 1st chapter, I am sure I will discover more such gems. The book is Longman Vistas Social Sciences 6, by Vipul Singh, Anuradha Mukherjee, Jasmine Dhillon.

[Vipul]

India's Engineers loose their edge.

In the 2012 fiscal year, India trained 1.5m engineers, compared with 1.1m in China and 100,000 in the US, according to data from Kotak Institutional Equities. The figure for India has been growing rapidly – up from 700,000 in the 2008 fiscal year.