Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 13 Mar 2013 14:09

^^^Agreed. UPA 3 is still the most likely prospect out there. I'm happy to take a turd front gubmint anytime over one led by the termite dynasty. But what to do, every single institution of state has been infected by termites and subverted by now, I fear. We are so dooomed only.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Mar 2013 14:09

LKA needs to officially retire and become the "chief mentor emeritus" role. he should ask his followers to find a new leader and best of luck.

ABV is in no shape to play any active role.

that leaves jaitley and sushma. both have endorsed namo.

they need to get some state level stuff properly working and lined up. ultimately strong state level leaders matter in delivering handsome returns in MPs.

UPA looks far more prepared in terms in org, money, media at this time. they are calmly looking forward to the fight.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 13 Mar 2013 15:18

With a huge chunk of Minority votes reserved (12%-15% of electorate), the Kongis and their various Rakta-beej need only about 15% Hindu votes. And they can comfortably get that margin from the remaining 80% Hindus. On account of inertia or just plain slip of hand on the ballot paper.

What is actually needed is that out of the 80% at least half (40%) turn up at the booth and do bhoot capturing. This is after providing for hanky-panky also. IOW, Sangh has to make 3 times the effort to capture Hindu imagination as the Kongis etc. Further this 40% is required in areas that actually have smaller presence of minorities, which would take out probably a 100 seats. This bumps up the Sangh effort requirement another 1/2 notches. Net net Sangh needs to put in at least 5 times the effort compared to Kongis etc.

To my belief this can only be achieved by a twin focus on both Moditva and Hindutva. Hindutva is rather well established & ~20% of all electorate can be expected to remain staunch Hindutva vaadis. Who ever leads Hindutva leads this ~20%. This basically means RSS and affiliates with their own support structure of Babas/Baniyas. Moditva is what is needed to supplement it. BJP is lucky that after a long while they have people that perform and are known too for their performance. This new breed represents Moditva. Big money is with Moditva alongwith a substantial ~20% electorate.

There are queries from old timers if BJP/NM is serious. Well they may not be serious about sitting together to work out a solution but in that case they should kiss their collective _s_ good bye. Because divided no half will ever be able to put in the effort levels required and UPA-3 becomes a default win.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 13 Mar 2013 16:06

NikhilB wrote: Congress will pull out some dirty electroal tricks

why? they have the tried and tested method.

have the tabs on all corrupt state leaders to bring them in line. Scare the minority leaders to bring them in line. buy off some. rig some. scuttle some by propping his local enemy. INC has lots of people who are past-masters in this.

BJP lack such people. BJP can use it to their advantage by promoting fresh faces as a change to 'business as usual' in dilli durbar. Get some of our own 'hope and change' rolled out.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 13 Mar 2013 16:39

I hope we don't ruin this thread with another whine fest.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 13 Mar 2013 18:41

From the 'karma is a beach' department...

2002 Gujarat riots: Ahmedabad Crime Branch to probe Teesta Setalvad's collection of funds

Well, Shri Amit Shah is no longer the HM in Guj, else it would have been even more fun. The man is nothing if not efficient and copetent only. I have zero doubt that Twista is a fraud and deserves more of what's coming for her.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Mar 2013 19:49

Singha wrote: Power cuts cripple Coimbatore’s ambition to become business hub

GD,

Same situation in Andhra.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 13 Mar 2013 20:40

Victim of apparent hit job, Vadodara MP Balu Shukla fights back

Gujarat BJP Lok Sabha MP of Vadodara Shri Balu Shukla has in a letter asked Speaker Meira Kumar to hand over the matter regarding baseless news item published against him in largest circulated Gujarati daily to Privilege Committee of parliament.

http://deshgujarat.com/2013/03/13/victi ... ghts-back/

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 13 Mar 2013 21:07

ravi_g wrote:SwamyG ji,

do you remember the story where the real mother was to be the women who could pull the child towards her because she had the most affection/attachment for the kid.

If you are referring to the story where two women fight for the child, the real mother was the one who COULD NOT pull, no? Because hearing her baby crying when being pulled apart broke her heart.....so she let go.

And how do you connect that story here ?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 13 Mar 2013 21:12

Sushupti wrote:
SwamyG wrote:When I tell NaMo should ditch BJP, people laugh. Oh when rubber meets the road they are == onlee.
Easier option is to kick out dynasty collaborators.

Partially agree. Because any existing organization, has some of the plumbing work already done. Why through the infrastructure out - grass root supporters, branding, physical offices, connections and relationships ityadi. However throwing a bunch of heavy weights out is not easy.

Look at the party hopping these politicians do; from BJP to Congress, from Congress to BJP ityadi ityadi. Sadly, even Modi welcomes them back. Even if one were to rationalize it as a necessity to win elections; the neta log have inter-party connections. Only some politicians would rabidly hate another politician or an ideology. For example Jaya hating MuKa (vice versa). Communists hating BJP. Others seem to move around. Look at Jagan's mother - she is ready to patch up with INC. It was expected.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 13 Mar 2013 21:24

Ask not what Modi has done for BJP, ask what BJP has done for Modi

BJP is like a company with elite in the board placing glass ceilings from having a hard working employee from climbing up and reaching the top - CEO. And these board members have not shown to be competent enough to take on the bumbling competitor. The employee has a good plan (product) to take the company forward, and there are employees within the company to support him; yet the board is not so sure about the idea or the employee, and wants him to slog in one department. This is because the employee had one time earned the displeasure of vendors/suppliers, media and competitors. Yet there are consumers who are willing to buy the product after looking at the prototype the man made.

I as a stock holder am going to shout 'screw all of you'.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 13 Mar 2013 21:45

Modi row: Jewish panelist not to attend Wharton event

http://deshgujarat.com/2013/03/13/modi- ... ton-event/

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Mar 2013 21:58

Retirement nearing for LKA

న్యూఢిల్లీ: భారతీయ జనతాపార్టీ అనే మొక్కను పెంచి, ఒక మహావృక్షంగా నిలిపి, ఎందరికో నీడ నిచ్చిన వారిలో ఒకరైన లాల్‌కృష్ణ అద్వానీ శకం చివరి దశకు చేరుకున్న పరిస్థితులు కనిపిస్తు న్నాయి. బీజేపీ అగ్రనాయకుడు, పారీ ్టలో అసలైన హిందూత్వవాది అద్వానీ అన్నది అందరికీ తెలుసు. కొన్ని దశాబ్దా లుగా పార్టీని తన కనుసన్నల్లో నడిపిం చిన అద్వానీకి ఇకపై నిర్ణయాలు తీసుకో వడంలో పాత్ర ఉండకపోవచ్చు. ఈ పరిణామం అద్వానీ శకం అంతాన్ని సూచిస్తోంది. వచ్చే ఏడాది సాధారణ ఎన్నికలు జరగనున్న తరుణంలో ప్రధానప్రతిపక్షాన్ని పార్టీకి చెందిన అయిదుగురు నాయకుల బృందం నడిపిస్తుంది.పార్టీలో ఈ కీలక పరిణామం చోటు చేసుకోవడానికి నేపథ్యం రాష్ట్రీయ స్వయంసేవక్‌ సంఘ్‌ది (ఆర్‌ఎస్‌ఎస్‌). మొదటినుంచీ బీజేపీని నడిపిస్తూ వచ్చిన సైద్ధాంతిక గురువు ఆర్‌ఎస్‌ఎస్‌ ఈ పరిణామానికి సూత్రధారి. ఇకపై బీజేపీలో కీలక నిర్ణయాల్ని అయిదు గురు నాయకులు కలిసి తీసుకుం టారు. ఈ బృందంలో గుజరాత్‌ ముఖ్య మంత్రి నరేంద్రమోడీ, బీజేపీ అధ్యక్షు డు రాజ్‌నాథ్‌సింగ్‌, పార్టీ మాజీ అధ్యక్షు డు నితిన్‌ గడ్కారీ, లోక్‌సభలో ప్రతిపక్ష నాయకురాలు సుష్మాస్వరాజ్‌, రాజ్యస భలో ప్రతిపక్ష నాయకుడు అరుణ్‌జైట్లీ ఉన్నారు. ఆర్‌ఎస్‌ఎస్‌ అధిపతి మోహన్‌ భగవత్‌, గుజరాత్‌ ముఖ్యమంత్రి నరేంద్ర మోడీ ఇటీవల ఈ బృందం కూర్పు గురించి చర్చిం చారని ఆర్‌ఎస్‌ఎస్‌ సీనియర్‌ సభ్యుడు ఒకరు తెలిపారు.అంతేకాక, బీజేపీ వ్యవహా రాల్ని సంఘ్‌ పరివార్‌ నడిపి స్తోం దనే ముద్రను తొలగించు కోవాలని ఆర్‌ఎస్‌ ఎస్‌ భావిస్తోందని ఆయన చెప్పారు. ‘బీజేపీ నాయకులకు అద్వానీ ఒక గురు వుగా కొనసాగుతారు. కానీ, నిర్ణయా లు మాత్రం వేరేచోట జరుగు తాయి’ అని తన పేరు చెప్పడానికి ఇష్టప డిని ఆర్‌ఎస్‌ఎస్‌ సభ్యుడు తెలిపారు

The era of LKA is coming to an end.

Looks like RSS formed a team of 5 leaders to guide/make all decisions related to BJP. They are NM, RNS, NG, SS and AJ.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 13 Mar 2013 22:05

I repeat

BJP is party where in everybody sees to it that no two swords shall fit in the scabbard
It just cant how more than one leaders and every one pulls every one to ground

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 13 Mar 2013 23:58

X-posting the relevant portion from Atriji's post on another thread, for its insights into Modi's model of Hindutva:

Atri wrote:You see, RSS and HMS (Hindu MahaSabha) had some major differences in methodology of approaching problem - Similar to INC's Garam Dal and Naram dal (only difference being, unlike INC, none of them were compromised, it was genuine disagreement). The scenario and times were such that they shared a common cadre base and most of the workable definitions. But simply check the thoughts of Savarkar (and KP Jayaswal and Sitaram Goel and Ram Swarup and Francois Gautier etc) on Hindu sociopolity with that of Golwalkar and DD Upadhyay, Tarun Vijay, Govindacharya, MG Vaidya, Dattopant Thengdi etc. You will get the difference that I am talking about in the three posts that I cited above.

NM represents the resurgent Savarkaraite meme of HMS. He may not say so explicitly, but the cadre which backs him fervently is from that stream. Savarkaraite stream is that of Shivaji which is much more threatening to C-system than RSS (which belongs vaguely to stream of Peshwas). RSS was reigned in (and was amenable to reign itself in) on three occasions (1948, 1975, 1992). HMS was exterminated in 1948. In times and places where 1947 like conditions are approaching and are present, these two sword arms of Dharmik purusha will come together. In stable times, this is not the case always. This does not mean that there is clear antagonism between two. No, things are much more complicated than this.

Why do I think NM represents resurgence of Savarkaraite model of hindutva? Firstly, he is the only national leader within parivar who pays shraddhanjali to Savarkar on his birth and death anniversary. Secondly, he does not make a big deal out of emotive issues like cow-slaughter, temples etc. Remember Savarkar's thoughts on all this and you will see the difference. His recent decision encourage to train dalit children to be priests and be performed upanayanam upon, is in line of savarkar's vision of eradicating Varna-Bheda.

Now, those belonging to RSS school (Hedgewar/Golwalkar) of Hindutva are much more traditionalists (Sanatani people). Savarkar's school tends to thrash most of the traditions (temple worship, brahmin priest, cow-reverence etc) which traditionalists are attached to. Many people sympathizing with RSS (Hedgewar himself) opposed Savarkar's definition of Hindu (one who considers india as fatherland and holyland). RSS avoids this question.

Also, Savarkaraite model of Hindutva idolizes heroes. Shivaji, Sambhaji, Savarkar, Ram and krishna (as heroes, not devatas), Ranjit Singh, LKA (for some period in late 80s and early 90s) and now NM. RSS model of Hindutva desists from idolizing individuals. It avoids scenarios where people start rallying around a hero, than a cause OR institution. Whatever problem that some sections of RSS have with NM is precisely here. According to RSS, it is unwise to let individual rise so high that his fall results in fall of entire structure. Instead of having one tall figure, lets have million midgets, all of them thinking in right directions and taking small steps in coherence.

I am not making case for OR against RSS. In course of time, it is RSS which survived and HMS which vanished. All type of dharmik individuals rallied under the saffron of RSS. As the number of such young people with hindutva mindset is growing, it is natural that a large section will gravitate towards the HMS pole. But RSS survived precisely because there were no heroes OR icons which could be brought down. RSS can own and disown anyone which is a very desirable trait to have, given the hostile environment they had to thrive in past 80 years. Savarkaraite HMS could never do that - They chose Johar and Kesariya of Rajputs over slimy cunning of Ghanimi Qavvait of Marathas.

But it must be noted that times are changing. Although we might be gradually approaching 1947 like situation, Hindus are much more prosperous, strong, rallied and focused this time. Shivaji-Savarkarite model may not fail so dramatically this time. It may go much farther this time.

Let this samudra manthana happen. Do not color it based on caste. Eventually, both models will throw up good dharmik men, and this is what Bhaarata needs.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Mar 2013 00:03

Savarkar's writings have clearly been a big influence on Modi: CM pays tributes to Veer Savarkar on his Punya Tithi

On Tuesday 26th February 2013 Shri Narendra Modi paid rich tributes to Veer Savarkar on his Punyatithi. Shri Modi tweeted,” ‘When many called 1857 a Sepoy Mutiny, Veer Savarkar called it the ‘First War of Independence’. Tributes to the legend on his Punyatithi.”

Last year, in May Shri Modi had released the Gujarati DVD of a film on Veer Savarkar. During his speech Shri Modi praised Veer Savarkar’s vision and spoke about how Veer Savarkar had envisioned today’s problems. Shri Modi had also said that Savarkar’s contribution to the nation was great but we haven’t been able to give anything in return.

Additionally, Shri Modi had shed light on a side of Veer Savarkar which has generally been ignored in mainstream historical discourse. Shri Modi spoke about Veer Savarkar’s contribution as a social reformer and how he fought for temple entry for Dalits in Ratnagiri. In 1938, he was in Baroda when Maharaja Sayajirao Gaekwad heard him from his car. He got so inspired that he called Savarkar the next day and interacted with him on Dalit emancipation.

Shri Narendra Modi stressed on the need to present the true history of India’s freedom struggle before the public. Shri Modi had said that there were several great men who were not treated well by history. He had said, “Equally unfortunate is the fact that there were many great men who tried to end social untouchability but instead became victims of political untouchability. Veer Savarkar is a prime example of this.”

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Mar 2013 00:06

Speech by Modi on Savarkar

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 14 Mar 2013 00:10

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 14 Mar 2013 02:13

Atri: Is that a dramatization (or movie scene) of a real conversation? Or is it a fictional conversation to highlight their differences ?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 14 Mar 2013 03:06

Fictional of course!!

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 14 Mar 2013 03:28

SwamyG wrote:Atri: Is that a dramatization (or movie scene) of a real conversation? Or is it a fictional conversation to highlight their differences ?

Real conversation.. Verbatim. The clip above is scene from movie of course.. But the dialogues are actual sentences.. Chronicled by people attending the meeting. The details are available in Samagra Savarkar Vangmay and also in MKG's chronicles. The movie shows it in favor of Savarkar but this was the serious disagreement which happened in Ratnagiri in 1927. The meeting heated up when topic of Moplah riots and withdrawal of Non-cooperation after chauri chaura came up. The real conversation lasted for couple of hours though.

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 14 Mar 2013 03:28

Sushupti wrote:Modi row: Jewish panelist not to attend Wharton event

http://deshgujarat.com/2013/03/13/modi- ... ton-event/

This will be noticed. Jews are a power-house in the US. A great people!

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 14 Mar 2013 03:45

Neela wrote:Despondency based on the assumption that most people cannot distinguish between civic bodies and central government.
Good assumption and a safe bet - but need not be true!

Sure, % of "educated" voters voting at central govt elections will be greater than % at local/civic elections. However, what you are neglecting is that, if congress is willing to go all out for civic elections, do you not think they would do even more at the general elections? An example, in mysore (at the last election) TRUCK LOADS of villagers were brought in wave after wave to vote. Guess who paid for those trucks? Hint: It wasn't Modi.

Simple fact is this, the number of lower/poor class far exceeds the middle class. EVEN if 100% of middle class voted, they cannot compete with the poor. Poor are kept poor BECAUSE they are vote banks. A farmer is ready to accept 500 or 1000rs to vote, do you think someone working at infosys would accept that sum ??? A few years back, 6 lorries were stopped at the KA-TN border, each carrying thousands of notes, border cops were buttered and the trucks moved on.. oh and a local election was a week away. Coincidence? From the poor man's point of view, I can understand why they do it (I don't agree, I just understand their reasoning). They are thinking about the immediate future, they need money for kerosene/rice/dal. Who cares if the road connecting their village to the next isn't of great quality if I can't even buy a plate of rice?

So it is upto us to go out and vote, only after that can we complain. Far too many people do the latter without doing the former.

UPA-3 is more or less guaranteed. No amount of day-dreaming will change that. But as I said earlier, I would be the happiest person if this isn't the way it works out. I WANT (this) my prediction of UPA-3 to flop.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Mar 2013 06:42

Joshi fires at UPA, hits Modi

Another idiot leftist from the BJP stable.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 14 Mar 2013 06:51

We need to stop calling people names.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 14 Mar 2013 07:00

Shonu wrote:
Sushupti wrote:Modi row: Jewish panelist not to attend Wharton event

http://deshgujarat.com/2013/03/13/modi- ... ton-event/
This will be noticed. Jews are a power-house in the US. A great people!

By the way, Amy Gutman, the University president who turned the screws on the organizers to get them to cancel Modi's talk, also happens to be Jewish. It was a political decision. Perhaps the political bosses underestimated the negative fallout, and some amount of hedging of bets is going on.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Mar 2013 07:39

^^Well commie Jews aren't anything new, one of the reasons why they got into so many genocides, but I believe that in the end Jews know their interests lie with whoever has the potential to whoop some MALSI ass.

Also, perpetual cynicism is just a cowardly act by people who are AFRAID to hope or believe.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Mar 2013 07:48

SwamyG wrote:We need to stop calling people names.

Presume you are referring to my use of the word 'idiot' ?

I disagree. Irrespective of political affiliations, if there is one thing all of us are agreed on it is that we would want our political representatives to be more intelligent in their decision making and public statements. We would also want them to adhere to certain minimum liberal values...In order to bring about this change, we need to be able to score or rank them on these criteria and call those out who we believe don't qualify. Disparaging intelligence is completely acceptable in my book (assuming one can back it up, when questioned, with a reasoned argument).

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 14 Mar 2013 07:50

Arun Menon wrote:I believe that in the end Jews know their interests lie with whoever has the potential to whoop some MALSI ass.

Also, perpetual cynicism is just a cowardly act by people who are AFRAID to hope or believe.

That is a simplistic view. "Masli's" have their own uses - consider the Jihadists in Syria or the Pakistani establishment for that matter. What they need is deft handling.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 14 Mar 2013 07:53

Atri wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Atri: Is that a dramatization (or movie scene) of a real conversation? Or is it a fictional conversation to highlight their differences ?
Real conversation.. Verbatim. The clip above is scene from movie of course.. But the dialogues are actual sentences.. Chronicled by people attending the meeting. The details are available in Samagra Savarkar Vangmay and also in MKG's chronicles. The movie shows it in favor of Savarkar but this was the serious disagreement which happened in Ratnagiri in 1927. The meeting heated up when topic of Moplah riots and withdrawal of Non-cooperation after chauri chaura came up. The real conversation lasted for couple of hours though.

From the conversation, Gandhi comes across as someone with a closed mind who lives in the world of lofty, abstract ideas and is not bothered about what the actual results of those ideas are on the ground.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 14 Mar 2013 09:09

Is it true that Nathuram Godse had visited Savarkar right before he went to kill Gandhi? Was Savarkar aware of the plan?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Mar 2013 09:12

Pranav wrote:Is it true that Nathuram Godse had visited Savarkar right before he went to kill Gandhi? Was Savarkar aware of the plan?

Please take this and followon discusson to any other relevant thread.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 14 Mar 2013 09:26

Arjun wrote:
Pranav wrote:Is it true that Nathuram Godse had visited Savarkar right before he went to kill Gandhi? Was Savarkar aware of the plan?
Please take this and followon discusson to any other relevant thread.

OK, the question may be answered in the MKG thread here - http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=280

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Mar 2013 10:25

Arjun wrote:
SwamyG wrote:We need to stop calling people names.
Presume you are referring to my use of the word 'idiot' ?

I disagree. Irrespective of political affiliations, if there is one thing all of us are agreed on it is that we would want our political representatives to be more intelligent in their decision making and public statements. We would also want them to adhere to certain minimum liberal values...In order to bring about this change, we need to be able to score or rank them on these criteria and call those out who we believe don't qualify. Disparaging intelligence is completely acceptable in my book (assuming one can back it up, when questioned, with a reasoned argument).

Ajun calling some one an idiot; that too without laying a reason for it is not disparaging, its name calling.

Meanwhile do you realize its an article written by a certain some one called Sanjay K Jha in a certain paper called the Telegraph? And you called Shri MM Joshi as lefty?

Man I cant wait to see faces in JNU if they read this comment.

Even if you wish to dismiss the well known nature of the these two entities. (although I assume you do not know them otherwise you would not have made the comment you did) -- and consider the content of the article -- it turns out it is sheer crap.

ON each and every of the supposed differences between what Shri MM Joshi said in parliament and Modi, Modi has been known to make exactly the same, in fact harsher statments. The whole thesis of Shri Joshi's statement being some how against Modi's development model is a lie and a fraud, which some congressmen like Jha are now indulging in desperate attempts to show schisms in BJP.

I understand that you in US and see the Indian picture through US lenses and therefore such errors of making a value judgement based on a pile of crock can happen (distance issues as well)

But do be assured, it will be in everyone's good interest if you edit out your original remarks -- they go against your own stated stands.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Mar 2013 10:48

Sanku wrote:Ajun calling some one an idiot; that too without laying a reason for it is not disparaging, its name calling.

It would be name calling, if I were not able to articulate a reason on being questioned. I kind of anticipated you would be the first to question me...

So here goes. My opinion is based on these two quotes from the article-

Joshi rejected the belief that high growth rate was an indicator of people’s wellbeing and predicted that foreigners would rule India if “Walmart culture” was imported and the country remained obsessed with growth, instead of providing food, education and healthcare to the poor.

But Joshi thundered: “Even if you have to suffer higher fiscal deficit for protecting the interests of the poor, do it. What is more important, statistical detail or the poor? I laugh at your figures… you have only done juggling like a chartered accountant.”

Joshi is arguing for high fiscal deficit and against high GDP growth rate....I mean what more can I say ? I can guarantee you this goes against Jaitley and Modi's philosophy, and one of BJP's own few remarkable achievements to be proud of when they were in power (the Fiscal Responsbility Act).

Btw, I understand the BJP stance on FDI relating to Retail and to me that's not really a big deal.

And you called Shri MM Joshi as lefty?

Your understanding of what constitutes the economic left seems to be poor.

But do be assured, it will be in everyone's good interest if you edit out your original remarks -- they go against your own stated stands.

I will be happy to take back my opinion on MM Joshi being a leftist moron, if you can prove to me that the statements attributed to him on fiscal deficit and growth rate are false.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Mar 2013 11:31

Arjun wrote:....

Arjun ji; I think the problem here is that you have a narrow American centric definition of economic left, have extended economic leftism entirely to the whole spectrum of leftism, and then try and shoe horn that view on India. Further, if you had issues, instead of one line name calling associated with a very very shady article from a shady source, you should have picked a more meaningful base for your arguments given a few lines of your thought and then made your point. Most of your definitions, to me at least make no sense, that I am afraid is true for most of India. For example irrespective of whether Jadgish Baghvati agrees with Modi or not, it would be lost on most of Gujarat BJP and Modi that they were following "that" model. These names are not my names.

In India lefty means JNU, CPI (M), CPI (ML), CITU, Binayak Sen and other Nacxalities and so on. A very different connotation of the word left.

Further, there is nothing that I will discuss from the crap that the low life Sanjay K Jha dishes out. If you wish to discuss Shri MM Joshi's statement, I will do so ONLY if you also provide some other source for it. This is because Sanjay K Jha is a well known lying turd and a mouthpiece of congress (yes I am aware I am calling names and am well aware of what I am saying) -- and
1) We will probably be discussing based on a junk data point
2) Even if he is right (assuming) -- I do not wish to give any credence to that turd.

Also please understand that when a parliamentarian speaks in the parliament, particularly some on of MM Joshi's stature, on a prominent national issue, he is speaking NOT on his behalf, but on behalf of the party. Here there is no Jaitely, NO modi, No sushma.

This is BJP speaking, almost always post a meeting of top leaders in which it will be decided what stance will be taken. This is not true only for BJP which is anyway strongly collectivist, but for even person driven parties like congress.

So Sir ji, kindly take this as +ve feedback. I have no grudges, and you can either chose to take offense at me and "argue" or try and see what I am saying and accept that perhaps a person offering a critical feedback is also doing it for the common good.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 14 Mar 2013 11:49

SwamyG wrote:We need to stop calling people names.

Saar, put 2 and 2 together. He names Chhattisgarh and MP but doesn't name Gujarat. Now this can be a coincidence but it can also be a vulgar attempt to put SSC and RS in the same pedestal as NaMo. Nothing against those guys, but Indians needs NaMo; SSC is a great bet and come in later. But if some hung up old hag is trying to use SSC's shoulder to fire at Modi, there is no reason anyone should be stopped from calling that idiot an idiot. I'll go on & use the C word.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 14 Mar 2013 11:52

Chandragupta wrote:
SwamyG wrote:We need to stop calling people names.
Saar, put 2 and 2 together. He names Chhattisgarh and MP but doesn't name Gujarat. Now this can be a coincidence but it can also be a vulgar attempt to put SSC and RS in the same pedestal as NaMo. Nothing against those guys, but Indians needs NaMo; SSC is a great bet and come in later. But if some hung up old hag is trying to use SSC's shoulder to fire at Modi, there is no reason anyone should be stopped from calling that idiot an idiot. I'll go on & use the C word.

And you would do this on the article written by Sanjay Jha of Hamara kangress dot com?

Shouldn't we see what Congress is trying here? its pretty blatant.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 14 Mar 2013 12:22

Sanku ji,

I agree with you regarding Sanjay Jha, and some of your reaction seems to be based on the fact that his article has been quoted.

But there are other sources that tell a similar story on the points I am concerned about. Like here: Like farm loan waiver, DBT’s aim is to garner votes: BJP

Initiating the debate on the Budget in Lok Sabha, BJP's Murli Manohar Joshi questioned the government's efforts to rein in fiscal deficit, saying people are more important than the "figure" of deficit. He said deficit was brought down to 5.2 per cent of the GDP by cutting down expenditures of different ministries by Rs 60,000 crore. "Ask them (ministries) to spend even if fiscal deficit has to be increased by 2 -4 points for the sake of the country. Who is more important — aam aadmi, labourers... or the figure? Is it the human being or the country, which is more important, or the figure?" he said, adding there has to be a "national consensus" on economic objectives.

The country is now in truly dire straits from an economy standpoint. The economy has been grossly mismanaged by the UPA. Whereas the NDA laid the basis for the high growth rates of the noughties and pioneered the philosophy of fiscal prudence, the UPA has managed to single-handedly destroy both the growth rate and the fiscal responsibility that was BJP's claim to fame.

Now instead of attacking the UPA for these two above facts - what does Murli Joshi do? He says economic growth rate is not everything and that they should bust the fiscal deficit even more!! If he wanted to take a pro-poor political stance I am not against that. Parties definitely have a responsibility to show concern for the disadvantaged...but what he should have said is UPA has failed on the growth front and equally they have failed in providing for the poor. He should have said that they have busted the fiscal responsibility that BJP has been so proud of, and yet failed to satisfy the needs of the disadvantaged.

These statements of Joshi are HIGHLY dangerous. India is at a precipice right now, and I would be seriously worried if folks like Joshi get any serious chance to meddle in the economy.

Let me make my stance very clear. The Congress is a leftist party, both in economic and social terms. It has some reformers like Chidambaram and MMS (who are still very poor in both vision and execution as compared to Modi) - but the Dynasty at the top that drives the party is completely leftist and populist - and that is the reason India is now up the garden path and staring down the precipice.

The BJP is a much better alternative in that the leaders that are likely to formulate the economic policies (Modi and Jaitley) are growth-oriented and top-class in vision and execution. Unlike in the Congress case, Joshi is just some underling that is not likely to influence policy, hopefully.

All this talk of BJP being a 'collectivist' organization fails on several grounds. If it were truly collectivist, how come the BJP in Karnataka was such a basket case and it is a star in Gujarat ? At the end of the day, everything boils down to personalities. And I would be uncomfortable trusting the economy to anybody in the BJP other than Modi & Jaitley (& possibly Yashwant Sinha) and the team they specifically choose to appoint.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 14 Mar 2013 12:34

I'm all for name-calling except that it tends to divert people away from the point being made to the names being called. Counter-(re)productive, IMO.