Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

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vinod
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by vinod »

An excellent series on Indian Railways.
http://vadakkus.com/tag/indian-railway-story/

Its a must read for all indians

A snippet from http://vadakkus.com/2012/06/27/indian-r ... 5-history/
Once the dust settled after the partition, the Railways lay in tatters along with the rest of India. Most of the lines, locomotives and rolling stock were damaged or unusable, much went missing and on the wrong side of the border, there was a severe shortage of fuel and a lot many of the staff had either fled or were missing after the rioting. We had to start from scratch.
vinod
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by vinod »

RamaY wrote:
vinod wrote:East India Company: The Original Too-Big-to-Fail Firm
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-1 ... -firm.html

East India Company: The Original Too-Big-to-Fail Firm
In one stroke, Robert Clive, who had engineered the victory, netted 2.5 million pounds for the company and 234,000 pounds for himself. (Today, this would be equivalent to a 262 million-pound corporate windfall and a cool 25 million-pound success fee for Clive.) The flow of wealth from Europe to Asia would now be reversed, and the East India Company’s shares soared on London’s markets.
These numbers are incorrect.

UK's GDP in 1757 was 74.5 million pounds. The EIC loot from Plassy (2.5 mil) is equal to 3.36% of UK GDP. In 2012 this is worth ~57 Billion pounds and Robert Clive's share is 5.7 Billion pounds.

This is how people are misguided.

I ran the numbers through this site http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk- ... onversion/
In 1757 2.5million = 450million in 2012, if I use 1756, it would be 480million
2340000 = 42million in 2012

Interestingly the inflation shot up to 21.8% in 1757!!!! Equivalent of a massive QE! This makes me wonder the true loot figure would be much higher than the 2.5million quoted one that was the recorded in the books. Remember, whole incident based on treason, fraud and forgery! So, it won't be a surprise, if the whole loot by officers of EIC was much larger!
Lalmohan
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lalmohan »

clive is quoted as saying that he could have taken more for himself, but held back because it was beginning to look too greedy to the rest of the company

ofcourse one of the first things that EIC officials did was to use their loot to literally buy seats into the british parliament and start to vote for laws that favoured the EIC. this was greatly resented by the stay at home brits, but the company 'nabobs' got their way until the company turned into the equivalent of today's 'greedy bankers'

the gordon gecko of his era
Agnimitra
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Agnimitra »

X-post from Islamism and Islamophobia thread:

British right-wing racist fascism targets Moslem minority:
UCL bans Islamic group after segregation row
A London university has banned an Islamic organisation from its campus, after it attempted to segregate an audience at one of its debates by gender.
However...
Why is Prince Charles so attracted to Islam? - (Note: the author is British Iranian).

Prince Charles reveals he's been having Arabic lessons for six months so he can read the Koran
RamaY
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RamaY »

Vinod

You are doing interest rate calculations. Will it give the true picture?

Another method is to use how much of x (gold or something) it would get then and now. This also gives only limited picture.

We need to understand what for and how this loot is used to get the real picture.

The loot of EIC went into British GDP for next 200 years and funded its empire. So whatever GDP (first world economy GDP including the exchange rate etc) Uk has now has its roots in that loot.

Hence the methodology behind my calculation.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

RamaY wrote: If not British, India would have got railways by early 1900s.
This lies about "Britain gave the railways to India" needs to be demolished. The fact is "India gave the railways to Britain". The Indian Railways and the British Railways were paid for by Indian money. Once the technology exists, implementing a project that uses the technology is no big deal. The most difficult thing in any project is finding the money to pay for it. By building the Indian Railways with Indian money, British industry received huge orders for tracks, engines, building materials, engineering services, etc etc. If something is bought with my money, its mine, and I need not be grateful to the person who took my money to buy it.
eklavya
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

Cosmo_R wrote:@eklavya ^^^

Rest easy. We all know the self-appointed soup Nazis on BRF. They alone know the truth. Past, present and future.

They have lots of time and infinite amounts of "my way or the highway" arguments.

They leverage this "Guru" avatar as a shield against any counter arguments or opposing POVs. Their doppelgangers can be found in purifying the land of the pure.

Speak your mind and heart without fear. That is what we hope BRF is all about.
Thank You, Cosmo_R.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by abhishek_sharma »

A Tale of Two Londons

Who really lives at One Hyde Park, called the world’s most expensive residential building? Its mostly absentee owners, hiding behind offshore corporations based in tax havens, provide a portrait of the new global super-wealthy.
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Its putting it rather mildly - if we only look at IR driving British railways-connected industry. There are many other aspects of the colonial building and management of IR that are usually overlooked:

(1) It was not only sourcing raw-and-finished railways related products from UK. It was also about keeping all maintenance skills within the British born expats servicing the IR. No significant attempt or infrastructure development was made for "schooling" - something that was significantly pushed for in almost all the European countries in contrast.

(2) Almost no investments were made once the initial set-ups were done - which by the way took almost until 1910. Track systems remained unchanged practically from the mid 1800's. 40% of the rolling stock was diverted to ME for WWII. 40% of the system was given to Pakis. Elephants and humans managed the so-called hand shunting until Chittaranjan works provided an indigenously built alternative in the late 60's.

(3) People should look at price fixing and the so-called system of "guaranteed returns" : [Gyan Prakash and Kerr (? not sure, but most likely source ref)]. The British IR was among the costliest [costs/mile] in the world. It was not just about guaranteeing returns to British manufacturers - but it was also about deliberate and criminal collusive financial practices to extract illegal profits from India for UK.

(4) As far as I remember, almost 80-87% of IR revenues came from the "third-class" travelers, who were given the least of facilities - or sometimes no facilities at all. In fact, it does appear again - that Hindus [and to an extent Sikhs] were primarily a target for commercial profits by the various railways companies - because of pilgrimage. Just in case people flare up in umbrage at mentioing the "Hindu" in connection with the benevolent Raj - this is all about so-called pure profit/biz motive. The sheer size of pilgrims made for good profits. The catch lies in the treatment - they were often herded into cargo wagons citing oversubscription of 3rd-class.

(5) The benevolence actually takes off from this deliberate commercially exploitative strategy of herding as much of "Indians" into as cramped a space without facilities - into the propaganda about British authorities concern and activity to improve "pubic health" conditions and teach "health". Without looking into travel conditions for the 3rd class - and its largest revenue as well as profitable "cargo", the Indians were blamed for their unhealthy practices, and their proneness to "diseases" and "epidemics". Both Prakash and Kerr provided instances of routine arbitrary detentions, forced vaccinations, rude searches of bodies etc.

Again - not my remark - but MKG himself wrote about this in Hind Swaraj : along the lines that IR was the spreading mechanism for epidemics, something that was perhaps less common in pre-IR days.

(6) The Brits actually did not have the "progress" of Indians through "railways" in mind when they invested. Initial growth was fueled by British cargo transport and military interests [as for track laying plans] and of cours eto provide a new market for the drying up British railway manufacturing industry. That they did not plan for or see the IR as a developmental tool for Indians - is borne out by numerous commentaries from UK on how
(a) "caste divided" Indians would not use the railways because they would have toc ome in close contact.
(b) women would not travel because women were not "free"

Later on, tracks were planned deliberately through "Hindu" pilgrimage centres to avail of the pilgrim traffic.

By the way - the 3rd class I think was abolished onlee in 1977, under Madhu Limaye, I think.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Sagar G »

India-born Manchester United fan bashed up in UK in racist attack
Prakash, a Manchester United fan, was left with black eyes, a swollen face and concussion. Devyani, an estate agent who lives with her parents in New Moston, took her dad to hospital where he was treated for concussion and given a scan.

London: A 56-year-old India-born football fan was beaten up badly by seven men and punched in the face and head more than 18 times on a packed tram in UK, as 200 onlookers did nothing to save him from the allegedly racist attackers.

Prakash Patel, a bank officer, was travelling home alongwith his 21-year-old daughter Devyani Patel after watching a football match when he was beaten up, leaving him with black eyes and concussion, local media reported on Sunday.

"The tram carriage was so full of people that the battered bank worker stayed upright after he was knocked out. Yet only his distraught daughter Devyani tried to push the attackers away from her father," the Mirror reported.

"I thought my dad was going to die. I was trying to pull these men off him, but no one intervened. It's disgusting, nobody did anything," Devyani said, adding she felt as if she was in a TV drama as passengers pushed forward to get a better view in Stretford, Greater Manchester.


Prakash, a Manchester United fan, was left with black eyes, a swollen face and concussion.

"These men came on and started making indecent racist comments... Myself and my daughter felt distressed about it so I said 'please behave' and that's when it started," he said.

"They were hitting me in the face, the eyes, the head... There must have been more than 200 people just in our carriage but nobody did anything or said anything. They all just stood and watched us," Prakash was quoted as saying by the Mirror.

Devyani, an estate agent who lives with her parents in New Moston, took her dad to hospital where he was treated for concussion and given a scan.

"We are big United fans and have been going to Old Trafford for 25 years and never had any trouble... But I will only ever watch Manchester United in a box now. Never again will I sit in the stands," Prakash added.

In the CCTV footage showed at the police station, the passengers were seen jumping up to get a better view of the attack on him in the tram.

Greater Manchester Police are appealing for witnesses to the attack, which happened after the United versus Fulham match on January 26.
Haresh
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Haresh »

A few years ago there was a similar incident in Southampton.
A young Indian guy had been watching football in a pub.
It was England Vs Portugal.
England lost.

As he was walking away from the pub, for some strange reason which was never explained in started walking with two skinheads and struck up a conversation with them. They started abusing him, he tried to pacify them by saying "I'm an England supporter"
You can imagine what happened next, the entire thing was caught on CCTV. The skinheads I think were caught and went to prison.

Football is a very tribal game, this guy should not have got onto a train with these people, with his daughter as well.
I am not condoning it obviously, but why put yourselves in danger?
I hate football and would never go to a match.
At work people talk about football in the most tribal manner possible. Like it or not brown skinned people can never be part of any european football tribe.
Haresh
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Haresh »

Found the link to the Southampton incident:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hamp ... 391602.stm
shiv
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by shiv »

Haresh wrote: Football is a very tribal game, this guy should not have got onto a train with these people, with his daughter as well.
The difference between the west and India is that for no real reason Italians are warned about India. India should really be warning its citizens about these things. Of course Indians will be the first to point out that India should get is security in order before giving warnings about the Oh so safe UK. This is after all exactly the sort of comment I heard after Sikhs were attacked in the US.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

If one knows that it is going to come to fisticuffs, that one is going to get hurt, send your dependents away to get help. Take out your knife and cut the other person up. If you don't have a knife try to get it from one of the attackers. Point is any attacker should also get bruised. Any Indian who does so, saves the lives of other Indians.

At some point one needs to become more aggressive than those who threaten you. Go for the leader of the bunch. If you hurt the leader, others would retreat.

Spend more time in the gym, than in front of the TV watching football!

The only thing that can save you is if you are able to instill some fear in them as well.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

Shiv ji, I understand your frustration with US help to Pakistan but how are the attacks on Sikhs in US relevant in UK thread? This is a small example of out and out British racism and xenophobia and may be our criticism should be limited to that only.
Haresh
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Haresh »

Rajesh,

It is a crimminal offense to carry a knife in public in the UK, and so it should be.
These sort of attacks are rare. I deffinatley don't walk around in fear of my life or safety everyday.
No one has any reason to carry a knife.
RajeshA
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

Haresh ji,

usually the knife-blade should not have a length more than the fingers, but I don't think it is illegal.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lisa »

You will see them at every Man U game.

http://harjinderkukreja.com/category/si ... er-united/
Haresh
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Haresh »

Rajesh,

In the UK a knife blade must not be more than 3 inches and it must be non locking

http://www.heinnie.com/Knives/-UK-Legal ... 1-641-818/

However do you think it would have made any differnce in this mans situation?
A knife is only as sharp as the person who weilds it.
The man on the train doesn't look like a knife fighter to me.
The story states that "The tram carriage was so full of people that the battered bank worker stayed upright after he was knocked out"
What could he have done with a knife?
Best to avoid the situation. I am not blaming the victim mind you.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lisa »

Once you have used a knife, that you have carried, in a public place you
have by that very act committed an offence irrespective. The utility proves
the fact and implicitly denies you any mitigation as you have failed the very
purpose the Act was enacted for, ie proscription of carriage to prevent
utility irrespective of size of blade.

Ask any policeman and he will confirm the same.
Last edited by Lisa on 18 Mar 2013 01:11, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lisa »

brihaspati wrote:Somewhat dated but just one indicator of who plays what role and where:

India expects UK to act on Khalistanis
Dipankar De Sarkar, Hindustan Times
London, October 04, 2012
India will seek firm action from Britain in dealing with Khalistani and other anti-Indian militant networks based in Britain — a problem that surfaced dramatically in this week’s attempted murder of retired Indian army officer KS Brar in the heart of London.

New Delhi has taken a dim view of the British government’s inaction in checking the activities of these militants, who disrupted this year’s Independence Day celebrations in the town of Coventry — home to a large population of British-Indians.

Foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai, who is in London ahead of next week’s strategic dialogue between senior officials of the two countries — an annual series — has already raised the issue with the British foreign office minister responsible for India, Huge Swire.

Next week’s meeting will see the Indian side restate its concerns. India objects not only to the disruptive activities of such militants but also their unchecked ability to spread anti-India hatred through speeches.

Mathai told a meeting at the International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) on Thursday that it is time to strengthen and deepen counter-terrorism cooperation between India and Britain. “Much more can be done by our two countries,” Mathai said, “for example by establishing mechanisms for exchange of actionable intelligence in real time.” India already has such mechanisms in place with the US ad France.
But why were the Khalistanis given breathing space and rooting time in the UK in the first place? Why were earlier extradition attempts not successful? And why did not corresponding GOI's pursue the matter or expressed their inability to do so to the Indian pubic. Khalistanis and assorted anti-India groups have been organizing, raising funds and on occasions brought in assorted political or other important Brit figures behind their campaigns - for decades before 2012.
Brihaspati,

What exactly would you have the UK government do if you could insruct within the remit of UK law?
sanjaykumar
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

I agree that carrying knives is somewhat uncivilised. Perhaps a necessity to some but quite distasteful.


Of course many personal effects one carries on one's person will substitute for knives. And there are several instructional web pages for those seeking to defend themselves. Anatomically critical areas can be very vulnerable to a rapid, unexpected strike.


Of course the danger is one of proportion. No verbal racial taunting can justify a physical attack. No hurt feelings can justify a vigilante hunting down a bully and doing him bodily injury.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Haresh ji,
an interesting quote from the reality of the situation : but do you notice the curiosity that the victim was virtually prevented from falling by the "packed"ness of the compartment? This means that there were human bodies in tight formation around him. How could he then have been "hit" at all?

Not coming to the man's defence - can become a legal issue - for his fellow travelers, if the crown prosecutors wish to.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Lisa ji,
your question is interesting. But first, everything that the UK as a state does going against individuals and organizations - is done within UK law? If so, the various organs of the state would not have been in such a rush to destroy documents of legal activities against individuals, or nations, and organizations - on various occasions in the past.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Philip »

A great shame about the Man U fan beaten up by British soccer hooligans and a blot on the face of the city of Manchester.To have not a single bystander try and stop the assault speaks for itself.

Without realising it,the British Raj actually hastened the emergence of a modern,integral independent India,by uniting the country through the infrastructure set up meant to move its wealth to ports and from there to the ends of the world.Interestingly,there is a small branch line in Kerala,to Nilambur ,meant solely to transport the magnificent Malabar teak back to Britain for shipbuilding purposes for the Royan Navy,which ruled the world's high seas.The railways were then the lifeline of India and used by our countrymen and women ,freedom fighters to travel the length and breadth of the country and unite in the sole purpose of freeing ourselves of the imperialist yoke.

However,the quality of rly infrastructure was fantastic during the Raj,built of course by Indian labour and supervisors.I recall how a former GM,then COO of a rly HQ had to make a decision during a flood as to which line stranded trains should use,the old one built by the Raj or the new line built after Independence.Unhesitatingly he said,the "old line".The trains were saved,the new line was washed away while the old line survived.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lisa »

brihaspati wrote:Lisa ji,
your question is interesting. But first, everything that the UK as a state does going against individuals and organizations - is done within UK law? If so, the various organs of the state would not have been in such a rush to destroy documents of legal activities against individuals, or nations, and organizations - on various occasions in the past.
Brihaspati Ji

I have asked a very simple question, what would you have the UK legally do. KIndly asvise us of your opinion with regards to Khalistanis for example.
Philip
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Philip »

Leave the issue of Scottish Independence aside for the moment,even the island entities off the Scottish coast,once belonging to Norway,now want their own independence.Having been to these islands,one can say that they have their own unique culture,English dialect,and possess the oldest stone culture in Europe,a most popular destination for travellers.The Orkney Islands also possess the world famous naval anchorage ,Scapa Flow,where scuttled German warships from WW2 sleep quietly in the deep.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013 ... -home-rule

Scottish independence: islands consider their own 'home rule'
Leaders of Orkney, Shetland and Western Isles are looking at plans to split from UK and Scottish governments
Scottish independence: islands consider their own 'home rule'

Leaders of Orkney, Shetland and Western Isles are looking at plans to split from UK and Scottish governments

Severin Carrell, Scotland correspondent
The Guardian, Sunday 17 March 2013 18.30 GMT

Tavish Scott
Tavish Scott, MSP for Shetland, said he wanted the islands 'to assert their natural and local identity, their distinctiveness'. Photograph: Chris Ison/PA

As the first minister, Alex Salmond, looks south and campaigns for an independent Scotland, leaders in Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles to his north have quietly begun talks among themselves about their own "home rule".

The three leaders, who run the three largest island groups in the British isles, will meet in Shetland on Monday 25 March to discuss a joint project on whether they should demand a split from the Scottish and UK governments after the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 – the date of which is expected to be announced in Holyrood on Thursday.

Malcolm Bell, the convenor of Shetland Islands council, said the independence referendum offered an opportunity for the islands to carve out a new political settlement. "There's no point in Westminster devolving powers to Edinburgh if they are going to stop in Edinburgh. When you're 300 miles from Edinburgh, or 700 from London, at those kind of distances, Edinburgh feels as remote as London," he said.

The councils are investigating plans to model themselves on the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands or the Falklands, which are crown dependencies and largely independent from the UK government, or to mimic the self-rule deal struck by the Faroe Islands with Denmark in 1948.

Other less radical options include pressing for control over all their local fisheries, merging local health and social services, and taking control of the sea bed from the Crown Estates in London to help the islands profit from the boom in windfarms, on land and offshore, and marine energy projects about to start off northern and western Scotland.

The three island groups are poised for a huge growth in investment by global energy companies: major tidal and wave energy parks are planned around their shorelines, while Shetland and Orkney are already seeing hundreds of millions of pounds spent on extra oil and gas terminals to service new fields being opened up in the Atlantic and North Sea.

Their alliance conjures up parallels with a campaign by rebellious Shetland islanders in the 1970s, when the Shetland Movement was formed to demand much greater autonomy for the islands as oil companies set up bases for the first wave of North Sea oil rigs.

Tavish Scott, the MSP for Shetland and former Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, told party activists on Saturday that the constitutional debate was the islands' chance to fight for their own "home rule", and a case study for the Lib Dems' localism agenda before the next general election.

Scott, who first raised this argument in a paper last year, fears that whichever side wins the independence referendum, more powers will be centralised by the Scottish government in Edinburgh, 300 miles south of the islands' main town, Lerwick.

Political leaders in the islands worry that their separate local authorities could be abolished after the 2014 referendum, either combined into a joint islands council or merged into a new super authority for the Highlands and Islands as the next government tries to rationalise Scotland's diverse group of 32 local councils.

Scott said there had been a "remorseless pattern of centralisation" under Salmond's Scottish National party government.

"For me, this is about home rule; our islands being able to assert their natural and local identity, their distinctiveness, and get the powers and responsibilities they need to make the best of the modern world," Scott told the Guardian.

"If we don't set out our position, we will be subsumed into Greater Grampian or Greater Highlands. As night follows day, both Labour and the Scottish National party are centralising parties. They won't talk about public sector reform, but we know discussions are going on behind the scenes that Scotland is too big infrastructurally."

The councillors distance themselves from Scott's rhetoric, arguing they need to tackle the matter as apolitical civic leaders rather than as campaigners.

But Bell, whose officials have drafted a detailed strategy on how to investigate Shetland's constitutional options, said he shared Scott's fears. Even the pro-UK parties are planning greater devolution of powers to Holyrood, he said, so it was important the islands made sure they gained from those reforms.

Orkney council officials have compiled a 300-page briefing paper on the constitutional and political options which is being discussed by councillors this week.

Steven Heddle, Orkney's council leader, said: "We need to do this on a proactive basis because, if we don't do something ourselves, we're going to find the nationalists and the unionists pursue their aspirations, which don't necessarily tally with what we want."

Heddle said pressing to become crown dependencies like the Isle of Man, after centuries as an integral part of Scotland, would be the least likely option – despite Scott's rallying cry on Saturday to copy the Manx model. Crown dependency would mean losing their vital European Union funding, which is essential for local farmers, and expose them to the whims of the UK government.

Jersey and Guernsey were forced to drop their low VAT regimes, heavily exploited by internet retailers such as Amazon, after pressure from other retailers and the UK Treasury. "This is why we need to do the research: be careful what you wish for," said Heddle.

But Shetland already has some unusual, even unique deals which set a less dramatic precedent for all three councils to follow in future. After oil was first struck in the North Sea in the early 1970s, it was granted a surcharge on every barrel of oil landed at Sullom Voe which has helped it fund a community trust which eventually became worth £300m.

In 2000, Shetland was given complete control over its inshore shellfishery, which allows it to decide on the ecological and conservation rules for its fishing boats.
Shetland

Population: 22,400

Capital: Lerwick

A large archipelago of 16 inhabited islands and more than 80 others. Famously closer to Bergen in Norway than Edinburgh, Shetland is best known for its annual Viking-inspired winter festival Up Helly Aa, its Iron Age brochs, salmon farming, Sullom Voe oil terminal and its excellent public services: its oil fund pays for impeccable roads, numerous swimming pools and cheap ferries.

Its fishermen have a reputation for entrepreneurialism: in 2010, Shetland's main fish-processing firm and wealthiest trawler owners pleaded guilty to a multimillion-pound fisheries fraud, landing thousands of tonnes of undeclared mackerel and herring.

Orkney

Population: 20,100

Capital: Kirkwall

A cluster of 20 inhabited islands and about 50 others separated from Caithness by the mighty Pentland Firth sea channel and some of the Earth's strongest currents. Orkney has the world's most advanced wave and tidal energy test centre and is famous for its 12th-century St Magnus Cathedral, minimal crime rate, the neolithic village Skara Brae and its fudge.

It was the site of Europe's largest underwater scrapyard: in 1919, just before the Treaty of Versailles, more than 50 German battleships were scuttled in Scapa Flow by their commander, Rear Admiral Ludwig von Reuter. It is a hotspot for scuba diving.

The Western Isles

Population: 26,500

Main town: Stornoway

A long string of 15 inhabited and 50 smaller islands on the edge of the Atlantic, dominated by Lewis, Harris and the Uists. These Gaelic-speaking islands are famous for hand-woven Harris tweed, their beaches, the Callanish standing stones and, on Lewis and north Harris, Sabbatarianism, the orthodox Protestant rule banning work and play on Sundays.

One tradition – the annual hunt for guga, the smoked, gutted gannets caught on Sula Sgeir – is regularly attacked by animal rights groups. The delicacy with a very small fanbase has a taste which is a cross between duck and strong fish oil.
Sachin
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Sachin »

Haresh wrote:As he was walking away from the pub, for some strange reason which was never explained in started walking with two skinheads and struck up a conversation with them. They started abusing him, he tried to pacify them by saying "I'm an England supporter"
About to leave for UK on my first stint there, a friend who did his studies there offered his advice. Foot ball matches are big time events which leads to fights. So keep away from them. When going on train or london tube, check if there was a football match that day and see if the train is going through those areas. I sheepishly said that, perhaps I should then get into a coach which has the loser team's fans ;). My friend said, that is going to be even worse. The losers may be waiting to pounce upon some one and bash him up. The winners may be slightly better.

PS: I used to cross Finsbury Park station quite often. The day I find a large number of police men (especially some really burly Sergeants) I knew there was a match that day.
Varoon Shekhar
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

The vicious attack on the ethnic Indian is not receiving much coverage in the international media. The largest story related to India/Indians, is the rape of the Swiss tourist. They are playing that up, and ignoring the Manchester incident. Dozens of people doing nothing is pretty serious and worthy of condemnation. At least in India, the police have made a very swift arrest.
Philip
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Philip »

I had a hair-raising scare years ago when soccer hooliganism in Britain was at its peak.A late Sat. night tube train,only 3 loners in the compartment and a drunken bunch of fans bullying a single girl ,pelting the compartment with beer cans et al. How I escaped punishment I don't know.They were more interested in the girl I think.

It is for the Indian HC in Britain to take up the issue of the bashed up fan.If we can arrest the rapists of the Swiss tourist within 48 hours,surely the Brits with all their CCV surveillance especially looking for soccer hooligans,can't do the same? Where is the MEA and media?
Haresh
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Haresh »

brihaspati,

I did notice the comment that the train was so packed.
It is quite easy to hurt someone in a situation like that.
If I was fighting in a confined space ( I'm 48 now, so don't do it now, but when I was younger) I would use my elbows and knees, and the all time favourite the "Glasgow Kiss" the headbutt.
Headbutt's are particularly devastating, because the head is the heaviest part of the body and the skull is solid.
If ever you have occaision to use it, try and use the top part of your head.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lilo »

Leaving aside my sympathies for the poor father beaten up in front of his daughter ,
I feel revolted by Indians and those of Indian descent circulating themselves as "Fans" to Manchester United club in particular .

I mean Manchester IS the city which literally grew by sucking out the life out of the marrow of our ancestors by its mill cloth monopoly for more than a hundred years .

This monopoly itself was so "gracefully" achieved by the ohh soo "legendary British sense of fairplay" who started out by chopping off the thumbs and hands off the weavers who were then known to produce a calico so fine, several meters of which be easily folded into a match box. They systematically imposed crippling taxes and duties on the produce and exports of Indian cloth. Unable to face up to the repression the landless weavers gave up their original livelihoods and simply became destitute ripe and ready for meeting their deaths in the artificial famines induced by the "oh so benevolent overlords".
These famines in turn owed their origin to the large scale replacement of the required foodcrops by useless cash crops, especially Indigo plantations all of which was destined to be dyed onto the now famous "Manchester calico" ( btw the irony of now calling "The" Calico as "Manchester Calico" seems to have been lost on the Briturds).

Fast forward to 1930, when MKG walks up the steps of viceregal palace dressed in a single piece of cloth (as now his country men have been reduced to the penury of being able to afford only one) , the stinking turd Churchill (May he rot in hell) had the temerity to mock him as the "Half Naked Kaffir".

Frankly when ever i visualize this whole series of events, blood simply boils.
Even to this day in our countryside one finds many of the landless people working as agricultural laborers, now being categorized as scheduled castes etc who are infact descendants of those whose forefathers were master craftsmen renowned and appreciated the world over till their skill became the envy for the greed of the Manchester city .

Much of the above is alluded to in the history taught at our school level (though never laid bare as explicitly) yet ones comes across shameless yuppies in our metros yelling away in "sports bars" donning their Manchester U garb and coming across as grade one Aholes .
Sagar G
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Sagar G »

brihaspati wrote:This means that there were human bodies in tight formation around him. How could he then have been "hit" at all?
In the CCTV footage showed at the police station, the passengers were seen jumping up to get a better view of the attack on him in the tram.
rohitvats
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by rohitvats »

brihaspati wrote:<SNIP>
A question to you - any good book which talks about Indian economic scenario during the extent of British rule? And which shows the British policies and how the same wiped out the Indian economic backbone? Thanks.
RajeshA
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

In Western Europe, as the impotency of the far right to hit back at the Muslims, because of the latter's expanding domination, becomes ever more stark, the neo-Nazis would start hitting back at other vulnerable non-Muslims to feel a sense of strength! Unemployment as the British economy takes a dive would also increase the sense of frustration.

The Indians should prepare themselves for the uptick in violence. Teach your kids self-defense and martial arts from a young age. The transition from White dominance to Islamic dominance all over Western Europe is going to be a very violent phase and as dystopian as it may sound, the writing is on the wall - the difference in fertility rates. All the rule of law is going to go out of the window then!

So recommended is:
  1. Develop a common sense of Bharatiyata to conquer any sub-Indian identities.
  2. Indian youth need to become more cohesive. No shame in thinking of "gangs".
  3. Have as many children as possible, at least 2 boys and 2 girls.
  4. Self-defense, martial arts training for the kids should be a must.
  5. Be courteous to others, but if attacked or abused by whosoever unprovoked, ALWAYS hit back!
  6. Don't let anybody do Love-Jihad on your women.
  7. Join the military if possible of the Euro country to receive military training.
Yogi_G
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Yogi_G »

RajeshA wrote:In Western Europe, as the impotency of the far right to hit back at the Muslims, because of the latter's expanding domination, becomes ever more stark, the neo-Nazis would start hitting back at other vulnerable non-Muslims to feel a sense of strength! Unemployment as the British economy takes a dive would also increase the sense of frustration.

The Indians should prepare themselves for the uptick in violence. Teach your kids self-defense and martial arts from a young age. The transition from White dominance to Islamic dominance all over Western Europe is going to be a very violent phase and as dystopian as it may sound, the writing is on the wall - the difference in fertility rates. All the rule of law is going to go out of the window then!

So recommended is:
  1. Develop a common sense of Bharatiyata to conquer any sub-Indian identities.
  2. Indian youth need to become more cohesive. No shame in thinking of "gangs".
  3. Have as many children as possible, at least 2 boys and 2 girls.
  4. Self-defense, martial arts training for the kids should be a must.
  5. Be courteous to others, but if attacked or abused by whosoever unprovoked, ALWAYS hit back!
  6. Don't let anybody do Love-Jihad on your women.
  7. Join the military if possible of the Euro country to receive military training.
Rajesh ji, with all due respect, its only delaying the inevitable. Its an open secret that Islamists will over run Europe in the next 40-50 years with their current breeding rate. Even in India, with Hindu population growth rate and the Islamic one almost remaining steady they will be a majority within the next 100 years or so (current projection numbers of pop growth % being static as per what I read in a report will take 450 years). Its politically incorrect to discuss this, so we only turn our eyes away from it and wish that it never happens!
RajeshA
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

Yogi_G wrote:Rajesh ji, with all due respect, its only delaying the inevitable. Its an open secret that Islamists will over run Europe in the next 40-50 years with their current breeding rate. Even in India, with Hindu population growth rate and the Islamic one almost remaining steady they will be a majority within the next 100 years or so (current projection numbers of pop growth % being static as per what I read in a report will take 450 years). Its politically incorrect to discuss this, so we only turn our eyes away from it and wish that it never happens!
Yogi_G ji,

consider it as an intellectual challenge, devise a solution, implement the solution!

there is no such thing as inevitability! There is always a nuclear option! The challenge is not to use it and still get what one wants!
Varoon Shekhar
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

[quote="Lilo"]Leaving aside my sympathies for the poor father beaten up in front of his daughter ,
I feel revolted by Indians and those of Indian descent circulating themselves as "Fans" to Manchester United club in particular .

I mean Manchester IS the city which literally grew by sucking out the life out of the marrow of our ancestors ..

Excellent. I suppose in defense of the Indian and Indian origin soccer fans, they just see it as a sport that they enjoy very much. And that's their right. Manchester now is not the Manchester of the 19th century, at the height of British colonialism. Many Indians have developed attachment to various soccer clubs like Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester or some other Spanish, Italian et al team. The calibre of play is admittedly higher than what currently exists in India, in soccer. India may have to wait a couple of decades to see soccer at the British/European level.

It's pretty safe to say that no self respecting Indian, or even those with a little less of the quality, are endorsing the colonial exploitation of India. But superb narrative of history! More people need to be made aware.
Haresh
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Haresh »

Lilo

"chopping off the thumbs and hands off the weavers"

Do you have a link to this?
I have just started researching the entire Calico/Manchester issue that you mentioned.

Many thanks for posting it, I had no idea.

Kind Regards
:) :D
H
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Yayavar »

Have heard of that forever from childhood. A thaan (dont know how much that is) Dhaka ki malmal would go through a ladies ring and the English cut off their thumbs. Dont know how many they did in reality but they did kill the trade and replaced food crops with cash crops. And various other ills. A history of Bengal is dismal reading and then it spreads to the rest of India.
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