LCA News and Discussions

titash · Post by **titash** » 21 Mar 2013 19:58

rsingh wrote:
Yep
- To make Bakis and Chinies soil their pants
- To suck money from garib Bharat
- As a carrier builder......how many people entered the project and retired without seeing the completion of project?
- To remind us that our technology is so advanced that it will take years to complete the project,therefore we need to buy fighters from Videsh
- To give Jingos of BR some thing to munch on

rsingh paaji,

If the Tejas does exactly what you just said, it is money well spent!!!

To make Bakis and Chinies soil their pants...isn't that why we purchased the Mirage 2000 and Su-30MKI and chose to sacrifice your and my son's schools/colleges, police protection and safety for your and my wife & daughter, and good roads so you and me may explore India's many tourist spots?

To suck money from garib Bharat...how does garib Bharat feel about paying top dollar for over 50 years to Dassault, Sukhoi, Finmeccanica, Augusta Westland, BAE, etc...the list is interminable

As a carrier builder...I presume you mean career builder! But you got to be joking, right? In a capitalist society, only the truly incompetent and the truly dedicated work for a pittance. Rs. 15k/month in Govt. versus Rs. 150k/month working in IT. You should at least not take away from the truly dedicated people what they have achieved inspite of low pay and rations

To remind us that our technology is so advanced that it will take years to complete the project,therefore we need to buy fighters from Videsh...I just love this one! My good friend, we've been reminded of this fact for the last 50 years irrespective of whether we develop the HF-24/Tejas or not. Ditto for Pakistan. This is the one place where we should really admire the chinese for sticking with ultra low grade aircraft designs which are iteratively improved over the decades

To give Jingos of BR some thing to munch on...not necessarily! people can get their har* ons anywhere. Just check out the Su-30 or Akula threads

I really feel sad when I hear such statements. You just don't get the fundamental idea...if you can't walk, how will you ever run?

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 21 Mar 2013 20:53

^^^^

To make Bakis and Chinies soil their pants...isn't that why we purchased the Mirage 2000 and Su-30MKI and chose to sacrifice your and my son's schools/colleges, police protection and safety for your and my wife & daughter, and good roads so you and me may explore India's many tourist spots

That was the purpose, but you can not achieve that just by showing trial flights for 12 years. You got it wrong.

To suck money from garib Bharat...how does garib Bharat feel about paying top dollar for over 50 years to Dassault, Sukhoi, Finmeccanica, Augusta Westland, BAE, etc...the list is interminable

So you think it is better to waste funds twice.............strange logic

As a carrier builder...I presume you mean career builder! But you got to be joking, right? In a capitalist society, only the truly incompetent and the truly dedicated work for a pittance. Rs. 15k/month in Govt. versus Rs. 150k/month working in IT. You should at least not take away from the truly dedicated people what they have achieved inspite of low pay and rations

Yes GOI has to provide employment..............er what they achived?

I really feel sad when I hear such statements. You just don't get the fundamental idea...if you can't walk, how will you ever run

Don't feel bad or sad. Just learn to analyse things by being honest to yourself. For important projects we need to control budget and time limits. For that we need right kind of people ex Delhi Metro guy. Scientists are never good managers.

And please do not use "my good friend" etc on BR , that is reserved for Bakis.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 Mar 2013 21:20

You also cannot be a manager if you have no product to manage. Hence why managers are often the first to lose jobs. Someone has to make something for someone else to manage.

The product needed is the LCA, the technologies as far as India is concerned are "state-of-the-art", and Scientist vs. Manager has nothing to do with it.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 21 Mar 2013 21:21

rsingh wrote:Yep
- To make Bakis and Chinies soil their pants
- To suck money from garib Bharat
- As a carrier builder......how many people entered the project and retired without seeing the completion of project?
- To remind us that our technology is so advanced that it will take years to complete the project,therefore we need to buy fighters from Videsh
- To give Jingos of BR some thing to munch on

And you call this "analysis"

Titash stop wasting your time I am sure you have more important things to do than try to put some sense in muharram boyz.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Mar 2013 08:51

rsingh wrote: Yep
- To make Bakis and Chinies soil their pants
- To suck money from garib Bharat
- As a carrier builder......how many people entered the project and retired without seeing the completion of project?
- To remind us that our technology is so advanced that it will take years to complete the project,therefore we need to buy fighters from Videsh
- To give Jingos of BR some thing to munch on

is this guy for real ?!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 Mar 2013 08:56

titash wrote:I really feel sad when I hear such statements. You just don't get the fundamental idea...if you can't walk, how will you ever run?

people like the guy you responded to would rather just import a motorised wheelchair that is advertised as being among the best, and prefer being handicapped rather than learn to walk and then learn to run. Why bother to waste time and effort when you can have someone else do it for you?

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 22 Mar 2013 09:20

Kartik wrote:
abhishek-nayak wrote:LCA MK1 coming in 2015 is just too late....most of the planes in LCA MK1 class are on the verge of being phased out within next 5-7 years....
which planes in the LCA Mk1 generation (generation is the right term, since even the MiG-21 and F-5 are LCA Mk1 class fighters) are on the verge of being phased out?

Panavia Tornado,f16,mig 27,mig 29,jaguar,Mirage 2000 will be phased out withnin next 10-15 years etc etc.....half of them are much more powerful than LCA....

i was in class 6 when LCA flew for the first time....today i am an engineer with a job but till now it has not been inducted into service....

i am not saying that LCA is a bad plane, it's just that the whole fiasco goes on to show the shear incompetence of HAL and DRDO

manum · Post by **manum** » 22 Mar 2013 09:36

^^^

so you think LCA is a human, that you ****** and it gave birth in strict 9 month, sometimes earlier...

from when you were in 6th till you are an engineer..."Engineer???"

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 22 Mar 2013 09:38

^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^
Sir, bhagwaan per bharosa rakhiye ...

just wish that Mk.2 flies in 2015, then be rest assured of a pretty good LCA serving the country by 2020, since my understanding is that the incremental benefit that LCA will gain from Rafale , PAK FA and overall Mk.1 experience will benefit the program a lot....

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 22 Mar 2013 09:42

^^^^
just to add.... Mk.1 too is a good plane....

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Mar 2013 11:20

LCA is already a reasonable aircraft and an adequate replacement for Mig-21 and Mig-27s. The production is being delayed on the pretext of IOC-2 and FOC. While the general norm is to start production without these clearances.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 22 Mar 2013 11:32

If LCA achieves this, I would be more than happy. This should be understood by every Indian starting from the grass roots level to President

To remind us that our needs & the technology required is so advanced that it will take years to complete a project

Reworded

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 22 Mar 2013 13:20

pandyan wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:One of my friends called it "Lets Con the Airforce"
One of my friend calls it "Low Corruption Aircraft". He also said that if LCA came with regular kickback rate of around 15% (~4million usd), it would have cleared FOC last year, media will be singing praises and it will be patroling the skies in the border now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Mar 2013 13:28

imo a product is very different from a project. a ton of small things usually assail the end stages of a new product and needs lot of organizational exp to churn out a line of successful product incl very unsexy things like documentation, guides, training classes, supply chain line up, repair crew etc etc

this being our first real product in the domain from scratch, and not very well funded I feel HAL had/has a steep learning curve from merely 'absorbing' a foreign designed and documented manufacturing like Su30 or Jaguar and delivering things to spec, with help on call always from OEM when needed. this time they are the OEM and final line of support

it takes a lot of growing up for people in ITvity side also to transition from merely following someone's lead to making the risky decisions themselves and delivering something saleable.

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Mar 2013 14:14

Shifting from imports to indigenous defense production will lead to addition of one million direct jobs and two million indirect jobs to Indian economy.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 22 Mar 2013 14:30

abhishek-nayak wrote:LCA MK1 coming in 2015 is just too late....most of the planes in LCA MK1 class are on the verge of being phased out within next 5-7 years....

which planes in the LCA Mk1 generation (generation is the right term, since even the MiG-21 and F-5 are LCA Mk1 class fighters) are on the verge of being phased out?

Panavia Tornado,f16,mig 27,mig 29,jaguar,Mirage 2000 will be phased out withnin next 10-15 years etc etc.....half of them are much more powerful than LCA....

i was in class 6 when LCA flew for the first time....today i am an engineer with a job but till now it has not been inducted into service....

i am not saying that LCA is a bad plane, it's just that the whole fiasco goes on to show the shear incompetence of HAL and DRDO

Do you know what 'generation' means? Can you PLEASE compare the range of the MMR or 2052 to the radars of the planes you have mentioned here? you will eliminate at least 3 A/c. Next step, eliminate any aircraft which does not use more than 25% composites (i am just saying 25% and not 60 as the LCA is).
Next compare the PTW ratios and capabilities of single engine aircraft IN EXISTENCE today and considered cutting edge (e.g. Gripen) and the LCA is not just comparable it is even better in some ways.

The planes you have mentioned are not being phased out because they are outdated - in most cases it is airframe age, outdated engines etc which is affecting it.

Mr. Engineer - Please tell me what is the latest in vehicle gearbox technology - Has it changed over the past 2 decades?
The MIL Spec Chips are still very old technology (1980-90's) but they perform exceedingly well - even better than QC chips.
Do you know that an actuator on a Military jet of the 'new' (post 2K) era has a cyclic rate of more than 3000 corrections per second? - That is hydraulic!

The aircraft you mention (including the venerable F16 and M2K) dont have quadruple redundant 4 channel FBW systems with a manual backup. They dont have the FADEC control systems.

It is not an 'outdated' aircraft just because it was designed in the 1990's

Next time - read the last 1000 or so pages of discussion on this forum before shooting your foot into your mouth.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 22 Mar 2013 20:00

abhishek-nayak wrote: Panavia Tornado,f16,mig 27,mig 29,jaguar,Mirage 2000 will be phased out withnin next 10-15 years etc etc.....half of them are much more powerful than LCA....

So can you define what do you mean by 'more powerful'? How is one aircraft 'more powerful' than another one?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 22 Mar 2013 20:19

abhishek-nayak wrote:today i am an engineer with a job but till now it has not been inducted into service....

Are you even remotely involved in some kind of defence related R&D ???

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Mar 2013 20:37

Panavia Tornado,f16,mig 27,mig 29,jaguar,Mirage 2000 will be phased out withnin next 10-15 years etc etc.....half of them are much more powerful than LCA....

So?

manum · Post by **manum** » 22 Mar 2013 21:13

currently we are on verge of making history, be it 2015-16....

There is no other country which is under process of developing a credible fighter aircraft...except few like USA, Russia, France, may be European union and possibly China...

India being only other country...This is process which will require consistent backing and patience, times change more favourably than the most experienced man can even expect...This is why vision and consistent effort in right direction is more
important for a prospect of nation like us...

We have seen examples in past...

The fact is even in my darkest hour all I look towards is an example of LCA, Arjun...that good things are possible despite consistent hurdle because few people believed...There is no point in being short sighted and quoting one's age wrt a project...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Mar 2013 21:33

abhishek-nayak wrote:today i am an engineer with a job but till now it has not been inducted into service

In 1963 I was a schoolboy and a magazine called SPAN published a photo of a planned new Anglo-French fighter venture called the that was later called the Jaguar. A classmate of mine joined the Air Force after we finished medical school many years later and he is now a senior officer (AVM I think) and will retire in a few years. The Jaguar will still be flying when he retires.

The 1962 edition of the Observers book of aircraft has a grainy spycam photo of a mysterious new aircraft from the USSR called the MiG 21 Fishbed. A dozen air forces around the world are still flying this aircraft.

The same book has a page on the Northrop F 5 which is still in service with the Swiss Air Force and Thai Air force

Again the same book mentions the Dassault Mirage III which is on its last legs, but still operational and still a threat to India

The Sud Aviation (Now Aerospatiale) Alouette II can be seen in that book. That is still operational 50 years later

The C-130 Hercules finds mention in the book.

Iran is still using F-4 Phantoms also in the same 1962 edition. They are still in use in several other air forces.

That 1962 edition of the observers Book was gifted to me by my cousin late Wingco Suresh who had come to my house with his course mate Raj in 1963. Course mate "Raj" is Air Marshal Rajkumar who is now retired. They both joined the iAF in 1962. Now 50 years later Raj is retired and Suresh is no more. But many of those planes are still flying. Comparing lives of aircraft with human lives is pointless.

In world war 2 and in the immediate post WW2 and Korean war era, many aircraft simply came and went. But aircraft are now expensive and reliable and the tendency is to use them for many decades. Times have changed and we need to learn and change our mindset according to the times.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 22 Mar 2013 21:43

abhishek-nayak wrote: i am not saying that LCA is a bad plane, it's just that the whole fiasco goes on to show the shear incompetence of HAL and DRDO

Please look out on the web for how long other projects like Gripen, F22, F35 etc took, and that is by established companies who have been building planes for close to half a century.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 23 Mar 2013 00:19

Stop ganging up on this poor guy for asking the most obvious newbie question. Every six months someone asks the same question when there is a report on delays.

Although i agree that he shouldn't have posted his 'brief' biography to compare with LCA timelines

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 23 Mar 2013 08:48

^^ So called "newbies" should learn to shut the f:uck up and read something before opening their pie holes and showing everyone whose the man. There is no time to entertain such ignoramuses every six months. Maybe you have the time for it. If so, do it in private and stop wasting the time and forum space for the rest of us.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 23 Mar 2013 16:01

^

Arun, it is not a sign either of wisdom, knowledge and certainly not bravery that you gang up on a new member. This is an open forum and you certainly do not own it nor have the right to spew invective on the behalf of the rest of us.

Abhishek, the LCA issues are well documented and the journey has been well worth it. Obviously there are lessons to be learnt and there is a lot of material available including a recent speech by Air Commodore Muthanna. Like in all spheres of our national endeavours we need to learn the lessons and build on our successes. The services think the LCA is an excellent aircraft and are very keen to have it in squadron service asap. Just a few weeks ago I was with a couple of COs of Armoured Regts and even they were all praise for it (having heard from their IAF colleagues no doubt). Their perception is its a great aircraft but they are concerned about production issues where our track record needs to be improved.

OT - but it was really heartening to see signs of real jointness at the operational level. Without going into too much detail I must say that our air-land battle concepts and preparedness seem to be picking up very well.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 23 Mar 2013 16:34

Arun Menon wrote:^^ So called "newbies" should learn to shut the f:uck up and read something before opening their pie holes and showing everyone whose the man. There is no time to entertain such ignoramuses every six months. Maybe you have the time for it. If so, do it in private and stop wasting the time and forum space for the rest of us.

Mind your language and tone.

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Mar 2013 17:16

LCA platform is of the same vintage as Rafale which if purchased will be produced till atleast 2025 (or even 2035) Hence if imported maal is good, LCA is better for jingos! Not to forget that the super great PC-7 or whatever from Switzerland is World War 2 design.

Further due to piggie looks of F-35, a view is emerging in favor of weapon carriage in stealth pods rather than internal carriage. So LCA with stealth pods may be produced till 2050.

In any case, LCA is now ready but IAF is doing a Arjun on it.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 23 Mar 2013 18:08

^+1 Please be ready to repeat this every six months or sooner. Apparently its our duty to do so.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Mar 2013 18:17

Not supporting home grown products and aiding firang associated corruption can only happen in a banana republic. do you think it is happening? then awaken the masses. let them realize how their security is. spread the word besides this thread, as whatever said here will not reach the larger section.

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 23 Mar 2013 22:41

Don’t extend Tejas deadline, Antony tells DRDO

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 24 Mar 2013 00:05

abhishek-nayak wrote:
today i am an engineer with a job but till now it has not been inducted into service

oh boy I missed this

maybe you studied engineering like lots of folks including me -but whether you are an engineer - I have my doubts

there are some genuine engineers ont he forum and their knowledge can be seen. Till you prove likewise you just studied engineering and passed

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Mar 2013 00:20

venku_Raj wrote:Don’t extend Tejas deadline, Antony tells DRDO

anthonettan perhaps reads our dhaaga:

The concept of block acceptance and spiral development that is being followed in most leading countries of the world must be embraced after due deliberations and required changes,’ Antony said.

what are tranches?
what are agile methods within those spirals?
what are usability and operational qualities in addition production engineering?

etc..

vic · Post by **vic** » 24 Mar 2013 11:12

Kill Rafale order and buy 800 LCA instead.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 24 Mar 2013 11:27

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 24 Mar 2013 12:22

Arun Menon wrote:^+1

Can we please kill the comedy and restore some sanity to BRF?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 24 Mar 2013 13:39

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 Mar 2013 20:07

At 8 a year , 800th LCA will be delivered by HAL in 2113

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 24 Mar 2013 22:44

Antony is getting a case ready for imports.

I said earlier
its 15 years since sanctions on LCA after 1998 after Shakti
its 29 years since inception of LCA 1983

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Mar 2013 22:59

DRDO and HAL need an Antrix and Rosoboronexport like organization, which can bribe our politicians and babus in Nai Dilli.
Because it is NOT possible to have an arms deal without ghoos. These guys are sitting there and are judge jury and executioner, and they will NOT have any defence deal without bribes.

The only way an Arjun or an LCA or an Indian defence item, that has an imported competitor, will be inducted is if our sarkari, desi arms agencies can give the needed ghoos.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 24 Mar 2013 23:21

karan_mc wrote:At 8 a year , 800th LCA will be delivered by HAL in 2113

The 8 no. of LCA per year provides a five year time for the mk. 2 to come online so that as soon as the mk.1 production ends the production of mk. 2 can be taken up without the line remaining idle and hence resulting in efficient usage of man and machine thereby removing any chance of loss due to idle time. But since objective analysis is too much to ask from you, you can continue trolling.