Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

[chetak]

Its not very quick, its about normal for the conclusion of a court of inquiry.

The army judicial procedure moves much faster than that in the civil courts.

The sentences are also much harsher.

[nelson]

Life at OTA, an e-book. OTA celebrated its Golden Jubilee POP yesterday.

http://issuu.com/unigross/docs/bookfinal

Golden Jubilee Passing Out Parade is slated to be held tomorrow, 16 Mar 2013. Gen Bikram Singh, COAS is reviewing the parade. Sorry for mixing up the date in the earlier post.

[Sachin]

The sentences are also much harsher.

Any idea what are the possible administrative actions and disciplinary actions which are possible in such cases? Are these based on the rank held by the individual?

[rsingh]

The Chinese menu served is Korea, Japan, Beijing, HK, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, and Blore are different. There is no one version which is same in all in all these countries. My HK friend was laughing about Chinese cookie served after lunch in US restaurants.

'Wongs Kitchen' which is an Indo chinese has opened in CA. Here they have all the setting and props just like the Chinese restaurants but the waiters are Indians. It is fun watching the Chinese come to the restaurant and watching all the surrounding and ordering very hot chilli 65! Right under their nose the chinese menu is being transformed into spicy variety! They thought only they can copy from the rest of the world.

Hey Bhagvan.............I just casually whined about availability of Chinese food at IA mess in Mumbai and you guys have turned it into NDTV's gup-shup late night show

[pankajs]

Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh accuses Pak of 'bleeding' India, trashes talk of CBMs

The Indian Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh today made it clear to Pakistan that it cannot keep the tap of exporting terrorism to India open and hope for confidence-building measures (CBMs) with it.

"They are bleeding us and you want us to shake hands with you at the military level. I think that is not done. We got to be fair and there has to be level-playing field," Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh said and accused the neighbour of having "double standards" when it says that terrorists were not under its control and conceals them as non-state actors.

"The term CBM has got to be preceded by addressing trust deficit. You cannot talk of these things for endless years the way the things are going on. You cannot afford to keep open this tap of exporting terrorism to India. You have to check that and only then we can move forward," he said.

The Army Chief was answering queries at a media conclave about the Army being opposed to the CBMs between India and Pakistan.

Gen Singh said "things can improve" if Pakistan tells India that it can come and take stock of terror infrastructure there.

"You cannot have double standards. You say they are not in our control but yet we have non-state actors. They are bleeding us and you want us to shake hands with you at the military level. I think that is not done. We got to be fair and there has to be level-playing field.

The Army Chief said any decision on the CBMs has to be preceded by both the armies addressing trust deficit.

"This is something we have to do because we cannot be talking of something else and doing something else," he said.

He cited the example of Pakistan Army's double speak during Kargil war where first it disowned its troops present in Indian territory only to later say that its officers had ventured into Indian territory during that time.

"Let us be sensitive to each other's aspirations, let us go ahead with civility," he said referring to the issue of beheading of an Indian soldier by Pakistani troops.

The Army Chief also made it clear that Indian troops had not crossed over to the Pakistan side of the LoC on January 6.

"We have not crossed over anywhere as alleged by Pakistan Army on January 6 to carry out any operation across the LoC.

And it (the allegation) was done to justify and legitimise what was done on 8th. The issue is that these can be handled at local level.... Beheading has to be condemned. That is not done," he said.

To a query that governments of India and Pakistan are close to agreement on Siachin but the Army was opposing it, he said, "Please understand it is our area and it is strategically important. Why are we talking about giving our own area to somebody. It defies logic."

On giving more role to women in the Army, he said 200 more avenues have been opened in the force for them as per a study ordered by him.

The Army Chief said the women were "strong and robust" and 200 new slots would be given to them.Gen Singh said in the last 65 years, the Army has lost 22,443 men and officers in different wars fought by the country and they have to be given their due by the nation.

To queries on China, the Chief said the Army was prepared and "will not let any asymmetry" affect it.

He said the proposed Mountain Strike Corps was in final stages of being cleared by the government and it will be a capability which the force wants as part of its modernisation.

Post-Srinagar attack, Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh says AFSPA must stay

The time is "not right" for the removal of AFSPA from Jammu and Kashmir, Army Chief General Bikram Singh said today emphasising that any decision on this "should not be politicised" - he was speaking in the wake of the Srinagar attack in which 5 CRPF jawans were killed.

"We only make recommendations. If I was to be asked, I would say that the time is not right at the moment to tamper with this enabling act. We should not take away AFSPA at this juncture," he said when asked to comment on the issue.

The Army Chief, who was speaking at a programme in the Capital, was asked to comment on Union Minister Farooq Abdullah's demand for repeal of the AFSPA (Armed Forces Special Powers Act) from the state.

There have been similar demands voiced by his son and Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, other political leaders and separatists in the valley.

"It is important to observe the situation and it is important to understand the security contours of the situation before we take a decision. The decision should be a pragmatic one, it should be in national interest and it should not be politicised," he said.

Gen Singh said the Indian Army was working for strengthening the hands of the State Government and the day it feels it can handle the situation on its own, "then period. Go ahead".

The Army Chief observed that the terror infrastructure across the Line of Control (LoC) was still intact. One of the terrorists killed in the Tuesday attack on CRPF troops in Srinagar was of Pakistani origin and a number of external factors were "impinging" on the security environment in the State, he said.

"This decision (on AFSPA) has to be taken in the backdrop of violence profile, in the backdrop of what can happen in future, in the backdrop of futuristic contours. We have to be very confident that it does not relapse. We shall not be left in a position of disadvantage," Gen Singh said.

On suggestions that the Army was not listening to the government on the issue as Finance Minister had stated that the government wants the law to go but Army has objections on it, he said, "If a decision is taken by the government, we are ready to relocate."

Replying to a query whether the Army did not want to move out of the counter-insurgency roles, Gen Singh said, "We are losing our officers and men day in and day out. We are not there for fun.

"We are there as the nation wants us to be there. We are not getting fun out of dying. We are there because we are mandated to do so."

He said it was seen that when the conditions are not good, "no one says anything but whenever things are improving in the counter-insurgency operations, you will find that there is anti-army rhetoric."

The Army Chief said the force was not in the state for any "army centric" agenda and was performing its tasks in the national interest.

The Army, he said, did not want to be involved in internal security operations for very long.

In the recent past, political outfits in the state and its Chief Minister Omar Abdullah have been advocating the removal of the controversial act from some parts of the state but the Army has been in opposition to this demand.

So the present government is resigned to current state of affairs till the end of its term.

[pankajs]

No military solution to the J&K problem: Lt Gen. (retd) BS Jaswal

Q. AFSPA is not that important for the forces who operate in Kashmir. I mean no one is going to protest and label a soldier for having crossed HR if he say shoots a militant, a fidayeen. But the act becomes controversial when there is a rights violation. What is your take on it? Asked by: Atul Guha

A. AFSPA is not against the terrorist alone, the provisions also cater for no. of false allegations which the forces have to face. It is also to provide protection against false allegations which are blatantly & falsely levied against the security forces because of which they could have been drawn into legalities. Facts do purport the enormity of such allegations and there falsehood. Secondly, when operating against the terrorist they operate in habitat areas wherein it would become impossible for them to operate because of the presence of the population there, if in case they are not on with AFSPA. Moreover, they will not be able to operate expeditiously when they have to carry out cordon & search operations.

Q. Can you give us a rough estimate of the percentage of accusations of rights violations by forces turning out to be false? Just for a clear picture. Asked by: Wasim

A. Out of the total allegations, approx only 2.32 percent allegations have been found to be true, the rest have been found to be false.

Other nuggets.

[Victor]

what is all this chinese food in this thread

"An army marches on its stomach"--Napoleon

5 Gurkha served us delish Maggi noodles at 12,000 ft. Indian chinese food is similar to the stuff in Singapore. It is thought to have originated in Kolkata from the mainly Hakka community there but now of course it has become thoroughly Indian. Every self-respecting dhaba in Assam serves "chow" and pork has become de rigueur. Noodles are a very handy food--cheap, tasty, compact, nutritious and easy to make.
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb28 ... 8d1d31.jpg

[svinayak]

Every self-respecting dhaba in Assam serves "chow" and pork has become de rigueur. Noodles are a very handy food--cheap, tasty, compact, nutritious and easy to make.

Can pork be made popular in the rest of the country. I have been trying to get the original hand pulled noodles and hakka noodles for a long time. The last time I ate the actual hand pulled noodles was in HK but could not get any where in China town in NAM

[Brando]

^^What is all this non-Kosher/Haram Chow mein chit-chat ??

[ramana]

Folks can you stop this food whine fest and stick to the topic?

or do you need warnings?

[Vasu]

what is all this chinese food in this thread

"An army marches on its stomach"--Napoleon

5 Gurkha served us delish Maggi noodles at 12,000 ft. Indian chinese food is similar to the stuff in Singapore. It is thought to have originated in Kolkata from the mainly Hakka community there but now of course it has become thoroughly Indian. Every self-respecting dhaba in Assam serves "chow" and pork has become de rigueur. Noodles are a very handy food--cheap, tasty, compact, nutritious and easy to make.
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb28 ... 8d1d31.jpg

Love the fine 'China'!

I once got lucky and mooched a nice glass with the Navy emblem on it from a buddy's vessel. Its my favorite glass.

[abhijitm]

Folks can you stop this food whine fest and stick to the topic?

or do you need warnings?

Ramana, I understand your point of view but for me, as a non-military common man, this is an interesting discussion on what my army is eating and are they being looked after well as far as the food is concerned. Till this time I never knew they serve 'chinese'!

[chaanakya]

IAF kicks off massive combat exercise, activates all airbases



NEW DELHI: The IAF on Saturday kicked off a major exercise, 'Live Wire', to hone its war-fighting skills, with hundreds of fighters, helicopters, transport aircraft and drones from all its five operational commands participating to test both offensive and defensive airpower capabilities.

The exercise, the biggest in a decade with all the airbases around the country being activated, will be held in phases to validate network-centric operations.

"The entire IAF is involved in the endeavour, which will see operations being conducted from Leh to Car Nicobar," said an officer.

The high-voltage exercise comes close after IAF held a massive fire-power and bombing display, 'Iron Fist', at Pokhran last month.

In July, the IAF will dispatch its Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and other aircraft to the US to take part in the mother of all air combat exercises, the Red Flag, which is held at Nellis US Air Force base in Nevada.

Much like the Iron Fist, the underlying message behind the Live Wire exercise is also the same. India has the requisite military muscle to defend its expanding geo-strategic interests. The combat drills will see different types of fighters - from Sukhoi-30MKIs and Mirage-2000s to Jaguars and MiG-29s as well as force-multipliers like mid-air refuellers and AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) - take to the skies.

With the nodes of IACCS (integrated air command and control system) also becoming operational on the western front facing Pakistan, the exercise will be conducted in networked environment.

The automated IACCS enables quick transfer of data from low-level transportable radars, high-power static radars and medium-power radars as well as ground stations of AWACS and aerostat radars to one central place. This provides a composite real-time air situation picture to ensure operations can be conducted in a much swifter, cohesive and effective manner.

[VinodTK]

India Needs More Vehicles, But Spending Less

NEW DELHI — India’s spending on military vehicles has dropped slightly, despite the fact that defense forces have been urging faster vehicle procurement.

The budget allocation for military vehicles for the year 2013-14 is 20.8 billion rupees ($383 million) compared with an allocation of 22.6 billion rupees in 2012-13 and an actual spending of 23.5 billion rupees in 2011-12.

The drop in spending is even steeper when compared with the rupee’s declining value against the dollar. Three years ago, 48 rupees equaled $1, and now it takes 54 rupees.

The Indian Army still has failed to finalize purchases of armored personnel carriers and strike vehicles, which, according to an Indian Defence Ministry source, is the reason for the “near stagnation” on spending. The Indian Army has not purchased about 100 personnel carriers, the tender for which was first floated in 2009.

Only Ukraine-based Ukraine Export had submitted bids, which were also sent to Russia’s Rosoboronexport, Poland’s Bumar, U.K.-based BAE Systems, Germany’s Rheinmetall and U.S.-based General Dynamics.

The Army seeks to secure personnel carriers for use by its specialized forces.

In addition, the Defence Acquisitions Council, the MoD’s highest authority on weapons purchases, in October approved $300 million to buy 3,000 light strike vehicles for the Army.

A request for information has been issued for the vehicles, which will be used by special operations forces and will be fitted with integrated firepower systems. The Army has sought a stable vehicle that can carry four soldiers in full-combat mode. The request has been sent to major domestic automobile contractors.

An Indian Army official said the service urgently needs a variety of military vehicles for speedy movement against terrorists and preparedness for a swift fight in the future, yet procurement delays by the MoD have slowed the purchase process.

The Army submitted its request for vehicles nearly five years ago, which included wheeled armored personal carriers, light strike vehicles, command post vehicles, light armored multipurpose vehicles and vehicle platforms for multibarrel rocket launchers, the Army source said.

Pressure from the domestic automobile industry to give tenders only to domestic firms — against the Army’s desire for international competitions — is the reason behind the MoD’s inability to move quickly, the MoD source said.

[Jaeger]

^^This is actually an area where the local players CAN make an impact, unlike say aircraft and turbofan engines. This must only be open to local pvt players.

[VinodTK]

Military efficiency

It was the summer of 2003. A Jammu and Kashmir-based Military Intelligence (MI) officer was on a routine radio interception exercise, when he stumbled upon a vital piece of information.

It was a conversation a group of terrorists, who had infiltrated the state, was having with handlers in Pakistan on the future course of action. Basically, the men were awaiting instructions from their masters to strike.

The key input the young MI officer successfully intercepted through signal intelligence equipment led to what is today known as one of the largest counter-terrorism operations—Sarp Vinash—of the Indian Army. That two-week-long operation in the Hill Kaka area of Surankote led to the killing of 13 terrorists and capture of another two. There terrorists had been using caves as hideouts for four years.

With an exceptionally high success rate of close to 90 per cent, the MI continues to play a large role in countering insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir and the North-east.

The outfit was originally tasked with gathering tactical and field intelligence of military importance from neighbouring countries, but was soon drawn into domestic duties too, after the Indian Army embarked upon counter-insurgency operations. “The MI has a very limited role to play in the internal security framework when it comes to counter-terrorism operations. We have the mandate to work only in Jammu and Kashmir and the North-east where there are armed insurgents and Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act is in force,” a senior MI officer of Major General rank said, pointing out the limitations.

Also, MI remains a small force compared to other civilian intelligence agencies. Headed by a Lieutenant General-rank officer, MI comprises 700 officers, including women, and another 3,000 soldiers as cadre. In comparison, RAW and IB together have over 25,000 personnel.

[sum]

Also, MI remains a small force compared to other civilian intelligence agencies. Headed by a Lieutenant General-rank officer, MI comprises 700 officers, including women, and another 3,000 soldiers as cadre. In comparison, RAW and IB together have over 25,000 personne

Emmm, but what is the "teeth to tail" ratio between MI and RAW/IB?

IIRC, ~60-70% of these 25000 folks in the civilian agencies will be non-operational cadre and will be group C/D employees

[Shrinivasan]

Cross Posted from the Missile Dhaga!!!

Govt clears Rs 1,500 crore proposal for Pinaka rockets

To enhance the Army's firepower, the government has approved a Rs 1,500 crore proposal for production of more than 2,000 rockets for the Pinaka multi- barrel weapons system.

The Army requires more than 2,000 of these rockets to equip its 10-12 regiments comprising the Pinaka launchers.

Guys, did you notice the 10-12 Regiments reference... when did we induct 10-12 regiments of Pinaka... If this we true even remotely (like 5-6 regiments) I am very very happy... ORBAT and TOW gurus please chime in...

[SaiK]

where is the arjun mk-2 bumped up order, and requirements for mk.3?

[rohitvats]

The Army requires more than 2,000 of these rockets to equip its 10-12 regiments comprising the Pinaka launchers.

Guys, did you notice the 10-12 Regiments reference... when did we induct 10-12 regiments of Pinaka... If this we true even remotely (like 5-6 regiments) I am very very happy... ORBAT and TOW gurus please chime in...

At last count, IA had 3 x Pinaka Regiments @ 1 per arty division.

More raisings are planned in 2012-2017 Defense Plan. IIRC, it is 2 per year. But god knows what is the situation on the ground.

And by the way, that 2000 rockets number is sufficient only for first load...you have 18 systems with 12 barrels each - this comes out to first load of 216 rockets per regiment. 2,000 rockets suffices only for this first load...in reality, IA will need at least 20,000 rockets for fully equip these regiments.

[mody]

From the above report on Pinaka Rockets, there is information about other points about project at OFB. One project is conversion/upgrade of 130 mm medium guns to 155 mm 45 cal guns. So is the Soltam upgrade scrapped? From reports published earlier, as also from info received from chaiwala sources, it was confirmed that the soltam upgrade had worked and the converted guns (about 180 I suppose), were working satisfactorily.
However, given that the new OFB Bofors clone 45 cal gun has com online, the upgrade of the 130 mm guns should also hopefully work.

The second project mentioned is having a 105 mm gun mounted on a BMP-II chassis. Any info on this project? Was prototype of such a system shown? Where is the system likely to be used?

[Shrinivasan]

So is the Soltam upgrade scrapped? ...

The second project mentioned is having a 105 mm gun mounted on a BMP-II chassis. Any info on this project? Was prototype of such a system shown? Where is the system likely to be used?

As per multiple Open source reports, Slotam upgrade was successful around 180 guns were upgraded, another 360+ guns were in the pipeline to be upgraded.. this news might be talking about this second (or follow-up) tranches... IIRC, IA had bought a large # of 130mm arty at "soviet Era" friendship price... maybe Rohit can chime-in about this... he had some info on this in his blog too...

105mm gun on a BMP-II chassis was showcased in a Def-Expo (along with a Truck mounted variant)... maybe after endless trials IA might have approved it... it might be for plains onlee...

[Shrinivasan]

... And by the way, that 2000 rockets number is sufficient only for first load...you have 18 systems with 12 barrels each - this comes out to first load of 216 rockets per regiment. 2,000 rockets suffices only for this first load...in reality, IA will need at least 20,000 rockets for fully equip these regiments.

Maybe this 2K rockets is the bumped up production numbers PER YEAR, we have been hearing about "doubling production to 2K per year" from OFB for a long long time, maybe now only MOD has sanctioned the $$$ for upgrading their facilities...

[sum]

Colonel, 164 soldiers to face tough action for Ladakh fracas

A colonel and three officers of an artillery unit besides 164 soldiers, 17 junior commissioned officers among them, are set to face the strictest action under the stringent Army Act following the conclusion of a court of inquiry into a fracas that led to a free-for-all in Ladakh in May 2012.

This is the first instance when so many officers and jawans will together face what is called 'disciplinary action,' for gross insubordination and indiscipline and acts unbecoming of soldiers.

Northern Army Commander Lieutenant General K T Parnaik has confirmed the punishment handed out by the Court of Inquiry headed by a brigadier.

Under the Army Act, two more legal steps -- summary of evidence and if necessary, followed by a court martial -- are to be taken before the final punishment is handed out.

Under a court martial, the army is authorised to summarily dismiss soldiers or recommend loss of service and demotion in rank.

This, the army hopes, would send the right signal against mischief makers and those who break the strict discipline within the force -- the bedrock on which armies function.

The 226 Field Artillery Unit was on its annual field firing range at Mahe near Nyoma, barely 25 km from the Line of Actual Control with China, in Ladakh.

According to army sources, the incident flared up after a major beat up an orderly -- or sahayak -- for allegedly going into his tent when the officer's wife was changing.

The major accused the soldier of violating his wife’s privacy and assaulted him with the help of other officers.
The sahayak fell unconscious after the beating. Other soldiers thought he had passed away.
An enraged group -- some sources say they numbered 200 jawans -- went on a rampage gherao-ing and beating up the major and other officers.

These officers fled and hid in nearby units, sources privy to the incident say.

The commanding officer, Colonel P Kadam, who was staying at another location, rushed to the spot, but was caught in the fight between the two groups. The colonel too was injured.

The army initially described the incident as 'minor and isolated,' but now believes there was a failure of 'command and control.'

There is also the question why spouses were permitted at a field firing range.

Some veterans have expressed surprise that the unit has not been disbanded.

The unit has since moved to Ajmer under a new commanding officer who was rushed to take charge within 24 hours of the incident.

[Sachin]

The Hindu's take on the issue. Off course they do bring up the topic of sahayak and its mis-use.
Wake-up call for the Army

What is the latest status on the withdrawal of the sahayak system? I remember Army coming up with a proposals of phasing them out at least in peace areas. And the question on the Rediff link, why spouses aloud in field firing ranges also does not seem to have an answer at the moment.

[rohitvats]

The Hindu's take on the issue. Off course they do bring up the topic of sahayak and its mis-use.
Wake-up call for the Army

What is the latest status on the withdrawal of the sahayak system? I remember Army coming up with a proposals of phasing them out at least in peace areas. And the question on the Rediff link, why spouses aloud in field firing ranges also does not seem to have an answer at the moment.

Spouses/families on the FF Ranges is nothing new...most often than not, there is a demonstration of firing after the actual exercise is over. It happens with normal firing practice at long ranges for infantry or FF ranges for armor or arty. It is basically an outing for the unit and families of officers and men alike. However, it not clear whether the presence of spouses in this particular case was under such an outing for the unit.

However, in this case, my information on the incident is a bit different. There is nothing about sahayak aspect in this case. The fellow was actually caught being peeping tom on one of the officer's wife. He got the thrashing from the officers (which itself is an illegal act) - but even this did not trigger the actual incident. JCOs and Other Ranks were actually with the officers on this. The JCO(s) then requested for the fellow to be removed for medical care. And this was denied by the officers involved. This is what triggered the whole incident. Men thought that the fellow had died due to the thrashing.

AFAIK, the Officers involved will be Court Martialed for the their conduct of assaulting the jawan (serves them right) and JCOs/Other Ranks will also face similar music for indulging in fist fight and taking things in their hands. The CO will loose his job for Command Failure.

[ASPuar]

No question of Sahayaks being withdrawn, either from the army, nor from the CPMF's, nor from any of the state police forces.

It just is not going to happen, let me be very honest here.

And the question was not one of Sahayaks, SAchin, but one of a jawan indulging in a perverted act, and officers taking the law into their own hands in a manner which they should not have done. In fact what RV above has said is correct, which is that the non removal of the fellow to the Fd Hospital is what caused the trouble. And this was because the officers were afraid that moving him to the hosp would expose their overreaction, and illegal act.

[Sachin]

No question of Sahayaks being withdrawn, either from the army, nor from the CPMF's, nor from any of the state police forces.

As I said, I remember Army having a proposal for the removal of the system (by recruiting civilian staff). I have not heard any comments from CPMF on the same subject. And the media too is not really bothered to see if the colonial legacy is prevalent in CPMFs as well. So any more concrete news which says this system is going here to stay? Frankly, I feel with educational standards rising all across the country jawans may not be too willing to take up this kind of an assignment (off course exceptions are there).

On the Nyoma incident, point taken. Need to see the punishments meted out. Looks like lots of careers would get dragged in the mud.

[habal]

The fellow was actually caught being peeping tom on one of the officer's wife.

& what's wrong with that, may I ask without a hint of shame ? What's a trained warrior doing in the house of an officer as a manservant ? I am sure a soldier who is away from his family is not supposed to be in an environment where he is exposed to women changing clothes or should even have an opportunity to be tempted to such a situation. Where else in the (first) world does this happen ? And what is wrong if the 'sahayak' (such a shameless name) took the opportunity to be a peeping tom, he too needs something to do and something to stimulate himself. This entire sahayak BS is an extension of the feudal system, nothing else. It is the officer who should be thrashed silly for allowing such a situation to come to pass where his orderly had the opportunity to catch his wife changing. If he is incharge of his uniform or cleaning of weapons only then let that be just for an hour or so before the officer steps into his role.

And this thrashing business seems to be a peculiar feature of North India, where all and sundry budding feudals feel it is their right to thrash around somebody they have a disagreement with. It should be made legal in India to chop off the hand that indulges in wanton thrashing. See to it that such a backward culture is curbed before it just encourages disunity, mutual suspiscion and unwanted fear and disrespect of a fellow countryman who may not be a man of similar means. It is such an insult to the ethos of the country that such nonsense still thrives.

And I ask again, where else in the first world does this 'sahayak' phenomenon occur, apart from old British colonies ?

[manum]

^^^^Habal I agree with your most pointers...but what is it with this "NORTH INDIA" bullshit...

Do you know it so much that, you end up accusing entire region?

and you know what keep your prejudice up your ****...there is no need to display an upper hand and bring a regional twist into it...

I have reported your post...

[habal]

Well, I regret stepping on your toes and your fragile sense of social ego and sense of honor. But this 'thapparr maaroing' to the face is a peculiarly North Indian trait. I have lived in the borough for 35 years so I say this with some experience of the region. I may be prejudiced, show me someone who isn't, but this prejudice didn't come with me as baggage. I have seen numerous instances of 'thapparr maaroing' at parking spots, traffic signals, cops slapping around small boys, grown men slapping around smaller men etc to know what I am speaking about. There is physical violence in other parts of India too, but the target is not specifically a slaps on the face.

Even salt bag shaped, middle-aged members of the opposite sex are not averse to this pastime and learn the skill from their spouses and indulge in this shamelessly if they can get away with it, it is the most disgusting thing to see. Classless and senseless, and they come across as some hirsuit janglees for behaving in thus manner. This never happens in other parts of India. specifically i.e. slapping around total strangers in & that too in their face, for having pricked a delicate ego.

[manum]

I cant do what you are doing...accusing an entire region, based on your personal experiences and then calling everyone as your alibi....

See I can very well stoop as low as you, because its easy...but I'll let others take a call, how correct you are in your analysis...

[habal]

Ok, fine but like the Sahayak thing, this slapping on the face doesn't happen anywhere else in the first world. Not only is it demeaning & demoralising but can also play around with a man's sense of self-esteem and superego. and self-pride and you have broken everything. He is just a living corpse and is not in a position to morally contribute to society. You break a man's spirit and sense of dignity These when compromised can never be regained and thus my moral outrage. Didn't intent to offend you or any North Indians on this forum personally sir.

[chaanakya]

No question of Sahayaks being withdrawn, either from the army, nor from the CPMF's, nor from any of the state police forces.

As I said, I remember Army having a proposal for the removal of the system (by recruiting civilian staff). I have not heard any comments from CPMF on the same subject. And the media too is not really bothered to see if the colonial legacy is prevalent in CPMFs as well. So any more concrete news which says this system is going here to stay? Frankly, I feel with educational standards rising all across the country jawans may not be too willing to take up this kind of an assignment (off course exceptions are there).

On the Nyoma incident, point taken. Need to see the punishments meted out. Looks like lots of careers would get dragged in the mud.

Just a correction. CMPF is now CAPF.

[manum]

Habal I did not say I disagree with you... You just devalued your opinion by bringing your prejudice that is all...but will end this matter here...

[Surya]

This never happens in other parts of India. specifically i.e. slapping around total strangers in & that too in their face, for having pricked a delicate ego.

then Pune must be in North India because a thug slapped my friend a few years ago.

you cannot make blanket statements

[Sachin]

If he is incharge of his uniform or cleaning of weapons only then let that be just for an hour or so before the officer steps into his role.

May be it is here at BR or during some of the chats which I had with folks in the Army. It seems the Army higher ups does sent periodic reminders to officers about their wives having a proper dress code at home when the Army sahayaks are around. This is more as a guide to ensure that folks to dont get funny/s**xy ideas. It seems to be right considering jawans also stay away from their families most of the time. On the Nyoma Incident and its enquiry, I hope they also investigated on this culture of Field firing practise becoming a family picnic, with officer's wives also joining in. I really dont think the JCOs or NCOs had this privilege of bringing in their wives etc. for the firing practise. I dont think the officers here were leading by example. The fact that a lady was present at a situation, where generally it is not allowed also needs to be probed and if confirmed, corrective actions taken.

[Yayavar]

Ok, fine but like the Sahayak thing, this slapping on the face doesn't happen anywhere else in the first world. Not only is it demeaning & demoralising but can also play around with a man's sense of self-esteem and superego. and self-pride and you have broken everything. He is just a living corpse and is not in a position to morally contribute to society. You break a man's spirit and sense of dignity These when compromised can never be regained and thus my moral outrage. Didn't intent to offend you or any North Indians on this forum personally sir.

habal - It was wrong to have hit and they are paying for it. Now the mode of hitting I guess could have been a la Mohanlal in those Malayalam movies I've seen. He usually starts with a kick - dunno, if that hurts the self-esteem or physique any less but possibly a way to go popularize across the Vindhyas .

[Aditya_V]

On the Sahyak thing, near Marina beach in Chennai while passing through a Fish market, I saw an army man in uniform in his early 20's holding an umbrella while an older woman probably in her early 40's so that she can shop for her fish in the shade while walking through the market.

I find such a role extremely demeaning for the soldier. is this how the Sahyak system works??

[schowdhuri]

There are indeed many jawans who find a sahayak role 'demeaning'. There are (almost) never asked to perform that role.

Sahayaks are (almost) always people who volunteer for the jobs (because it makes life easier).

Sometimes those who become sahayaks are teased by others, and some choose to go back to normal duties.

Others remain, and get benefits (like when a simulated air attack wiped out the langar where our Sahayak had his food, others went hungry while our sahayak just popped over to our house and had his lunch there).

It has similarities to the ADC role, many officers do not want the role since it removes them from professional duties, but some do for the easy life and comfort during a period when life is toughest.

Too often the 'demeaning' etc is in the eyes of the observer (who has no clues how/why the system works), and not for the sahayak himself.