Deterrence

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shiv
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

shiv wrote:Let me ask questions that I have thought about on and off. I have my own answers but I am interested in what others think
1. If there is nuclear war between India and Pakistan would the risk of a nuclear exchange between Noko and someone else or Israel and someone else increase or remain the same?

2. If the US nukes NoKo would the risk of nuclear war between someone else increase?

3. If the US and/or Israel attack Iranian nuclear sites would the risk of future nuclear war between India and Pakistan increase or decrease?

4. If anyone uses a nuke against anyone else would the overall risk of further nuclear conflict increase or decrease?
My take
1. If there is nuclear war between India and Pakistan would the risk of a nuclear exchange between Noko and someone else or Israel and someone else increase or remain the same?

If the nation that lobs the first nuke gets away with it, the risk of war will increase. If that nation is toast, the risk of war will decrease.

2. If the US nukes NoKo would the risk of nuclear war between someone else increase?
The risk of war would increase

3. If the US and/or Israel attack Iranian nuclear sites would the risk of future nuclear war between India and Pakistan increase or decrease?
I think the risk would increase because Pakistan would fear a similar attack and ramp up production.

4. If anyone uses a nuke against anyone else would the overall risk of further nuclear conflict increase or decrease?
IMO the risk increase.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

Added: Threat perceptions and fears, uncertainties and doubts, in the name of deterrence notwithstanding. Actual use is actual use.

The question is one of risk of use of nuclear weapons. I am not counting preparation for the same based on the above factors as the same as its use. Quite narrow focused on the "risk of use".

Use in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are evidence of the same, I will even go the extent of saying, the use in Japan is what saved the cold war from becoming hot at some level.

Let me make a few more "benign" statements. Overwhelming majority of Pakistanis do not support the use of nuclear weapons against India, including a majority of the "elites" - even before actual use has occurred. Genetic and cultural bonds are a powerful thing that prevents an all out war between India and Pakistan - forget nuclear war.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

There is a seeming disconnect in the IA's view of Pakistan's deterrence objectives and the GoI's view of TSP deterrence thresholds, any comments on the same?
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ramana »

ShauryaT wrote:There is a seeming disconnect in the IA's view of Pakistan's deterrence objectives and the GoI's view of TSP deterrence thresholds, any comments on the same?

For helping the argument, please define what you think are those two positions?

Thanks, ramana
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:There is a seeming disconnect in the IA's view of Pakistan's deterrence objectives and the GoI's view of TSP deterrence thresholds, any comments on the same?
Shaurya I would echo ramana in asking if you could expand on this. I have never thought about it this way but I have generally felt that the armed forces prepare to fight in a "NBC environment", but none of them actually plan a nuclear strike as part of war plans.

In other words the armed forces "deterrence" is based on the idea that they will not be stopped from achieving objectives in the face of nuclear attack.

As far as GoI is concerned - aside from the declared nuclear doctrine and the occasional things that diplomats and senior armed forces officers are authorised to blurt out now and again, nothing is clear about what deterrence objective can be attributed to GoI.

In fact I have noticed in the recent past that the Congress are "placatory" in their statements as if expecting terrorist leaders to become ministers in Pakistan whom they will need to talk to, or perhaps fearing that they willbe targeted if they speak up. For example Shinde calls hafiz saeed as "Shri Saeed" and Manish Tiwari - just a few days ago said "the alleged role of Hafiz Saeed in terrorism". So at this point in time we have a bunch of weak frauds on top and I would not expect them to even think about deterrence objectives even as an academic exercise important for national security. The only worrying thing is that I see no one else on the political horizon from any party who is any better.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

What you say above is largely true, but there are nuances, give me some time, I will expand.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by RamaY »

ShauryaT wrote: Let me make a few more "benign" statements. Overwhelming majority of Pakistanis do not support the use of nuclear weapons against India, including a majority of the "elites" - even before actual use has occurred. Genetic and cultural bonds are a powerful thing that prevents an all out war between India and Pakistan - forget nuclear war.
This is BK talk. There is evidence that Pakis threatened with nuclear attack thrice till now, if not more. Once during RG tenure and another during kargil and then op parakram.

Are you suggesting that it is the WKKs who are letting India bleed (40k dead in JK and 25k dead in Punjab) in order to protect their kith and kin in Pakistan?

This is treason not liberalism.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by RamaY »

Continuing the above post...

The genetic and cultural bonds did not stop Islam spreading to Persia, Afghanistan and India. The same genetic and cultural bonds did not stop Cashmere occupation in 1947. They didn't stop the wars of 1965, 1971 and 1998 either. These genetic and cultural bods were the main reason for the JK and Punjab terrorism that enjoyed killing of >60,000 Bharatiyas in spite of the cultural and genetic bonds in this side of the border.

If you believe in the Bharat Karnad proposition of Indo-Pak wars are religious riots with Tanks then it is even more logical for a possible nuclear attack from your genetic and cultural brothers. Let me explain why. These genetic and cultural brothers (or forefathers) invaded Bharat when they had just horses and swords. These same guys adopted guns when they became vogue. The wars of past 60 years have seen every modern weapon that they could get their hands on - Guns, Mortars, Tanks, Fighter Jets and now missiles and nukes.

It is one thing to be silly and idiotic in one's belief that some how their liberal world-view would be reciprocated by their genetic and cultural brothers in enemy nations. For gods sake these brothers are conducting genocide on much deeper and stronger genetic and cultural brothers as we speak. But it is completely naive and even treacherous (when these words of pu$$ilanity evolves in to actions that hurt Indian territorial, economic, cultural and civilizational interests) to make national policy based on these pipe dreams.

P.S: ShauryaT garu - It is not intentional that our thought processes are in-congruent in multiple realms of national interests. So nothing personal here.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

Stick to thread topic - which is nuclear deterrence.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by RamaY »

I am absolutely on topic.

India's nuclear deterrence cannot be the "schizophrenic visions" of genetic and cultural brotherhood.

Could you please provide a single example of benefit to Indian Interests from this genetic and cultural brotherhood?
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ramana »

ST, This thread lost its focus many moons ago.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Why America Reserves the Right to Nuke You First. And why it shouldn't.
In 1945, Harry Truman ordered the first atomic bombing of another country; today, Barack Obama reserves the right to mount the world's next nuclear strike -- as have all American presidents since Truman. It is very odd that senior U.S. foreign policy officials, who have devoted most of the past seven decades to trying to control the spread of nuclear weapons, still want Washington to be able to use them first in a pinch. Even President Obama, a supporter of the abolition of all nuclear weapons, wants to be able to fire the first nuclear shot. No wonder North Korea, Iran, and others view efforts to get them to renounce their proliferation programs with much skepticism.

To be sure, the American ardor for atomic weapons has cooled since the famous Fortune magazine survey of December 1945, in which 22 percent of the public expressed the view that far more than "just" two nukes should have been dropped on Japan. Yet even as enthusiasm for inflicting massive destruction on others waned, there was still considerable fascination with these weapons in government and the military. Indeed, the idea of waging preventive nuclear war on Soviet Russia or communist China -- that is, hitting them before they had nukes of their own -- was closely considered for years, finally being rejected by Dwight Eisenhower in 1954.

This was the same year, however, that he articulated a doctrine of "massive retaliation" for any sort of act of aggression. Thus an incursion by some aggressor's conventional forces was now theoretically subject to a nuclear riposte. The idea was that this threat would keep the peace around the world. It didn't. Instead, a spate of irregular wars and acts of terrorism arose and, as Thomas Schelling put it in his classic Arms and Influence, the massive retaliation policy "was in decline almost from its enunciation."

Still, a version of massive retaliation lived on into the 1960s in the minds of NATO strategists who were concerned that Russian numerical superiority in tanks and warplanes was too great to match. And even after Western forces were beefed up, making conventional defense possible, the nuclear option was kept on the table in the form of an attractive euphemism, "flexible response." This meant that NATO would try to defend without resort to nukes, but would use them if it had to. Every "Reforger" exercise that began with conventional defense ended with the call for nuclear strikes.

Even as the Cold War was winding down and the Red Army was crumbling, the United States and its NATO allies grimly held on to the option of nuclear first use. Now it was only thought of as a last resort, but it was still on the books. And it remains a policy alternative today for NATO, though the current U.S. nuclear posture limits the right to first use by targeting only those nations who have not signed on or adhered to the various strictures imposed by the Nonproliferation Treaty -- which still leaves considerable room for first use.

For all the American intransigence about adopting no first use as policy, the concept has been embraced elsewhere. Next year Beijing will observe 50 years of its declared policy of no first use of nuclear weapons. India has also taken this position as, less credibly, has North Korea. Russia long held to a no first use policy, but renounced it 20 years ago when the country was in a state of freefall after the collapse of the Soviet Union. A decade ago Moscow clarified that it would only reserve the right to first use of nuclear weapons in the face of a massive conventional invasion of Russia. The bottom line is that the United States would be in very good company if a policy of no first use of nuclear weapons were declared.

Ironically, the country most staunchly opposed to renouncing the first use of nuclear weapons, the United States, would be the greatest beneficiary of such a policy. If a behavioral firewall existed between more traditional military operations and nuclear war -- that is, if forces in the field, at sea, and in the air didn't have to worry about an atomic attack -- then incomparable American strategic advantages would truly be locked in. U.S. naval mastery of the world's ocean commons is close to unparalleled in all history -- as is the Air Force's dominant position among world powers. It is extremely difficult to conceive of a situation in which American ground forces, deployed even to the most distant theater of war, would be mortally imperiled by the maneuvers of some opposing conventional force.

One of the biggest objections to adopting a no first use doctrine is that one's enemies might cheat and strike first. This simply begs the question of why they wouldn't mount a nuclear Pearl Harbor whatever the declaratory policy, no first use or not. And the answer is the same: Retaliatory threats (mutual assured destruction) remain a very powerful deterrent. No first use, however, reinforces the firewall between conventional and nuclear war, by formalizing this posture as a matter of policy and ethics.

And it does so in much the same way that the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) has operated. Since it went into effect in 1997, the CWC has been embraced by almost every nation (there are some 190 signatories at present) and has been a driving force in the destruction of nearly three-fourths of the world's chemical weapons stocks. Similarly, an American embrace of a doctrine of no first use of nukes could breathe fresh life into both arms reduction and nonproliferation efforts. And to those who worry about a nuclear power declaring, but not really making, reductions, a no first use policy, though it may spur decreases, need not reduce arsenals to dangerously low levels. Thus, what Charles DeGaulle once called an "arm-tearing-off" capability could be retained as long as needed, for deterrence.

This point about a no first use doctrine impelling sizeable reductions in the world's nuclear arsenals has one other major benefit: The fewer nukes there are, the less likely it is that any of them will fall into the hands of a terrorist network. There has never been a "nuclear Napoleon," due to the problem of mutual assured destruction, but if there ever is one he will come from a network. Unlike a nation with its fixed geography and population centers, a globally dispersed network is virtually impossible to target for retaliatory nuclear strikes. So if, say, al Qaeda, were to have even a handful of nukes, its coercive power would be enormous, upending seven decades of strategic thought about the utility of these weapons.

Better, then, that the world's leading power should set the tone now by renouncing first use of nuclear weapons, and following this declaration up with revitalized efforts to reduce existing stocks and prevent any further proliferation of perhaps the very worst weaponry ever conjured by the mind of man.
Last edited by ramana on 20 Feb 2013 21:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added Highlights. ramana
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

The US is a de facto NFU power now - so the FU clause is fake. In fact it looks fake because (especially after Iraq was acknowledged to be free of nukes) the US has consistently shown itself powerless to stop nuclear threats against itself from anyone.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:The US is a de facto NFU power now - so the FU clause is fake. In fact it looks fake because (especially after Iraq was acknowledged to be free of nukes) the US has consistently shown itself powerless to stop nuclear threats against itself from anyone.
Identifying the bluff is important. Esp Gora bluff
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ramana »

Oh will delete both.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

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Re: Deterrence

Post by ramana »

For all the half brained psec morons who quote Mahtam Gandhi irrelevantly while discussing India's nuclear posture
brihaspati wrote:There is only the appreciative-of-the-British statements by MKG that are usually quoted : most of his other problematic quotes are never mentioned - one for example is,

Had we adopted non-violence as the weapon of the strong, because we realised that it was more effective than any other weapon, in fact the mightiest force in the world, we would have made use of its full potency and not have discarded it as soon as the fight against the British was over or we were in a position to wield conventional weapons. But as I have already said, we adopted it out of our helplessness. If we had the atom bomb, we would have used it against the British.


Speech (16 June 1947) as the official date for Indian independence approached (15 August 1947) , as quoted in Mahatma Gandhi : The Last Phase (1958) by Pyarelal Nayyar, p. 326.

Here the standard interpretation is that he is talking of "other Indians". Typically this interpretation is accompanied by the quote restricted only to the last sentence. The reason the full paragraph is usually not quoted is because taken in the context of his other texts - like "doctrine of the sword", this would implicate the Indian component of the "non-violent" movement as fraudulent or insincere - according to his own laid out standards and criteria.

MKG's own assessment of the general Indian attitude and mindset towards the British - if we assume that he did not include himself in the "we" that would have nuked UK - in 1947, is that India in general would have gone forward to nuke UK.

Yes and the pursuit of the nuke option since just before Independence was a state policy directed by the Prime Minister irregardless of the party in power.Never mind the morons like Notwar Singh and other deluded fools.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

MIRV-testing by stealth — II
The PSLV-C 20 launched February 25 carried a payload of seven satellites, which were injected into their separate precise orbits using the embedded System-on-Chip (SOC). The SOC, it may be recalled, was used on Agni-5 for guidance and terminal accuracy. The SOC on C-20 is the testing of MIRV capacity by stealth. And while India has had this capability to disperse payloads from PSLV — MIRV tech in situ since 2004-05, this is the first near military application of it. Hopefully, GOI will greensignal a proper MIRV-ed Agni-5 test soon. The only problem with the MIRVed military payloads will be that such miniaturisation of nuclear and thermonuclear weapons as has been obtained to fit the nose cone geometries of Agni missiles cannot be reliable, unless the level of miniaturisation achieved in the 1998 tests is deemed adequate. Because that’s the level at which the weapons designs have got frozen, and absent further testing, will be a liability. To iterate, assuming warheads miniaturised to a certain extent were actually tested in 1998, then that’s all the level of miniaturisation the country will have to be content with. No testing means that the 20 KT weapon has been sufficiently miniaturised to fit several of these in the nose cones of Agni IRBMs. The bigger, older, problem remains however: The fizzled S-1 means the thermonuclear weapon too is suspect. Marry the suspect miniaturised warhead with the suspect thermonuclear warheads and we get a suspect hydrogen deterrent assuming again there’s such a thing. In the event, the 20 KT fission warhead seems the standard weapon for all delivery sytems. So, why pretend to having fusion weapons in the 125-175 KT scale in the arsenal? After all, there’s only so much traction missile accuracy will get India against equally accurate Chinese missiles carrying the 1.1-3-3 megaton standard issue warhead on its IRBMS.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

China hand behind growls of NoKo paper tiger
The Kim Jong Eun regime in North Korea is the proverbial paper tiger — all sound and fury, and near farcical capabilities when matched up against any of its adversaries in the Far East. It’s another matter that the US has fallen for this by deploying strategic bombers over SoKo, etc. NoKo’s blustery posture, heightened by the “ënhanced” Fusion-boosted fission device tested early February of Pakistani design and provenance and Chinese technical vetting and oversight, is not maintainable, however. (See previous blogs on the NoKo test, etc.) The important thing that’s predictably and wilfully being missed by the international and especially Western-American stratgeic communities is the fact of Pyongyang’s confidence being bolstered by Chinese steel. (Wilful neglect of this factor because otherwise the US would have to confront China head-on, a fight for which it has no stomach.) It is the assurance of Beijing’s military might that propels Eun’s almost clownish escalatory moves. It is China then that’s encouraging NoKo show of bellicosity. To wit this note in the ‘Powerful Nation Forum’ — revealing, eh???! — of ‘People’s Daily’, Feb 19, 2013, which referred to any crisis instigated by NoKo as beneficial to China because it diverts US pressure from China, distracts Japan from the Senkaku dispute theatre, and permits Beijing to step in as mediator-peace-maker. Very, very clever strategy.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by abhishek_sharma »

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Re: Deterrence

Post by JE Menon »

Thought I'd cut paste the below exchange from TSP thread... Am really interested in knowing if there is any real argument against the loose ICBM motion.

Shiv:

My take on this is as follows. A nuclear armed Pakistan with long range missiles is a very distinct possibility. But while Pakistan gets there the US will do everything to keep Pakistan's hate localized to India and keep the "region balanced" because that would be in the interests of the US and keep Pakistani anger away from the US mainland. In fact I would right now mentally prepare for the possibility of a squadron of F-35s being given to Pakistan in the next decade or so because this is how the US "balances" powers. This is how Japan and So Ko are balanced against China and NoKo and this is how KSA is balanced against Israel.

But in the long term the "breaking away" of Pakistan from US control would represent a real loss of US influence and a real decrease in US global clout. If you look at US influence in Pakistan as an indirect way of controlling India's actions in the world, a loss of US influence in Pakistan would also mean a loss of US influence on India. This ultimately boils down to a "shrinkage" of US power.

Pakistan's relationship with the USA is such that India is relatively weaker as long as Pakistan gets its strength from US support. If Pakistan remains a vassal state of the US, India will be relatively weaker, but Pakistan will always be a US gulaam. If Islamic Pakistan and its Islamic army break away from slavery to the US. Pakistan and the US get weaker. India gets stronger. For India to remain weak, Pakistanis must continue to be US slaves and the Pakistani army must continue to allow the killing of Pashtuns by the US

JE Menon:

Completely agree with the below post by the doc:

>>My take on this is as follows. A nuclear armed Pakistan with long range missiles is a very distinct possibility. But while Pakistan gets there the US will do everything to keep Pakistan's hate localized to India and keep the "region balanced" because that would be in the interests of the US and keep Pakistani anger away from the US mainland. ..

But in the long term the "breaking away" of Pakistan from US control...would also mean a loss of US influence on India. This ultimately boils down to a "shrinkage" of US power.

Pakistan's relationship with the USA is such that India is relatively weaker as long as Pakistan gets its strength from US support...<<

This is why it is in our interest to ensure that Pakistan now gains access to technologies that enable its intercontinental nuclear capability. According to the various cretins in the US, the Pakistanis currently have enough nuclear weapons to deliver over 100 warheads into India (how they know this we don't know, given that their intelligence ability demonstrated in Iraq was only moderately reliable), far more than sufficient to deter India; a capability, one can safely say now, that has been built up with winks, nudges, outright connivance and direct material and financial support by the various countries that wanted to see Pakistan in a position to deter India, including the US, China and to some extent Britain/France/Japan.

However, what Pakistan does not have is the ability to deter those in the US, Europe, Japan and even China with its Islamic bomb. Since we are anyway threatened and exposed by a Pakistani nuclear capability created by the US/China, and given that Pakistan having an intercontinental capability will not increase the threat to us in any significant way, why not strengthen our growing convergence of interest with the US (and others) by ensuring that they feel quite as concerned as we do with Pakistan's nuclear capability. Nothing like the possibility of a Pakistani ICBM on its way to your hometown to concentrate the mind. Delivered by state actors too, unlike the more arbitrary current possibility of a non-state jihadi delivered atomic munition (JDAM).

Pakistan's "deep state" (deepened, and I daresay widened, every time an American general or bald chunky state department official visits) is manically concerned about their nukes being "snatched" by American commandos and associated contractors with names that reflect a macho American educated-redneck menace (Blackwater, Xe Solutions, Dynacorp). It has been reported that such companies rent more than 250 properties all over Pakistan, ostensibly for better drone targeting intelligence, but one can see that the possibilities are endless. In a scenario such as this, and in an environment where Pakistanis apparently hate the US more than India (no mean achievement that), which Pakistani general will not see the potential in attaining the capability to deter any such operation? Fast.

We can even provide the paint, in this case. I'm thinking the costs to us will be minimal; I mean what are the potential targets of these ICBMs going to do? Hold out the threat of targeting us with nukes, which they have been doing for decades anyway? Oh wait, another travel advisory is possible!

Can anyone see any downside in this, from the Indian perspective? Anyway, all these Western media wallahs and think-tank wallahs are continually complaining that India lacks a strategic culture. Maybe this will do to show them we are trying to change?


Pentiah:

Not fair
Look back in the forum I have been shouting this from the roof tops since at least 2008 for the same stated reasons.
Actually I stated
India provide ICBM technology to TSP
And since 1998 I have been crooning like village bard of Asterix that
ICBM as International community of brotherhood messenger

International confidence boosting methods

Finally
A ICBM in the front yard of every country and fission bum in the backyard is the best way for international peace and prosperity

KLN Murthy

Give TSP ICBMs as CBMs. I am loving it.

JE Menon

Indeed, macha. Imagine now, SS Menon asking innocently at a meeting with his American counterpart: "With you guys now issuing a waiver on weapons to Islamabad, who can predict the consequences if, god forbid, the Pakistanis end up with the technology to not even have to paint ICBMs? The way things are going with North Korea these days, with you chaps back-pedalling furiously on that front, who is to say an emboldened young 'un won't decide to give a longer one to the Pakistanis than his father did? After all, Blowall is in the picture too... The new generation can take forward what the previous did to a bigger, faster, longer, thicker, farther scenario"

Hell, even the Paks don't have to know we are the source if that makes them feel better about the whole thing...

It's a net gain. I'm waiting for a rationale why this is not good for us... Think guys, think. I can't think of any, and I've been advocating this shite for a long long time. Spinrao has also been a long-time advocate.

Harbans

^From the mountains of Western Afghanistan they can target cities in South and East India with MIRV capability once they have the tech. That leaves absolutely no corner of India free. Possibly they can decrease range and increase payload for the same targets from NW Pakistan itself. It's not that they don't have missiles presently to reach targets in South and East, but they do have limited payload facilities, no MIRV tech, good possibility of endo/exo atmospheric interception by defense systems. I think wisdom always warns against arming an enemy that is hell bent on ones destruction.

JE Menon

According to most of our media and Pakistan's and the "West" - they already can target all corners of India. What has Western Afghanistan mountains got to do with it? They don't need ICBMs to deliver MIRV.

I'm merely talking about the possibility of extending their reach. Wisdom rarely suggests a course of action "always". Plus, do you see any exceptions to this rule other than Pakistan?

As for "good possibility of endo/exo atmospheric interception by defense systems", the Americans and others have it too, and even better quality/tech/design than what we do, apparently.

So the question remains. What, specifically, is the loss for us if Pakistan obtains ICBM capability, say, from China via North Korea? And, as usual, everybody denies the fu(k out of it. Just like they did with the nukes and nodongs.

What goes of my father?

Devesh:

Since their missiles are better than ours, and more road mobile - they can do so even now. What stops them? Green paint? The point is in bakistan one needs a pro-ummah crusader believing government and not anti-India. They should be told that they have won everything but lost in crusades - let the beast look outwards.

Prem Kumar:

In general a good idea. But only problem is that our ABM defences would need to be beefed up. A Paki can lob an ICBM in a lofted trajectory at India and at that point, our IRBM-targeting ABMs wouldnt be of much use.

JE Menon:

Prem aren't you assuming that ABMs are going to net 100% of the IRBMs that Pakistan sends in our direction? If not, and I presume not by far, what would their interest be in lofting an ICBM ? Moreover our theoretical situation is that we are going to be hit anyway... What difference if by ICBM or IRBMs? Plus we can be sure they will keep more than enough irbms to deal with us while going the ICBM route.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by pentaiah »

Actually US should donate ICBMs in the next tranche of Arms for peaceful development of TSP
How so
With out ICBM TSP , in its wont to bite its benefactor and eternal enemy the anti Islam west will try and resort to arm jihadi terrorists to do the damage to uncle and friends. If this route of administration is activated then its verybdifficultvand expensive to design / execute JCM ie Jihadi counter measures.

Where as ICBMs antidote is any way in development and at the same time TSP appetite to attack US is quenched so its a win win situation
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

JE Menon wrote: Can anyone see any downside in this, from the Indian perspective? Anyway, all these Western media wallahs and think-tank wallahs are continually complaining that India lacks a strategic culture. Maybe this will do to show them we are trying to change?
JEM it just occurred to me that if Pakistan is offered ICBM type tech they may take it and still keep testing only India specific missiles.

Maybe the thing to do is to share PSLV with Pakis. PSLV capability is exactly the same as ICBM capability. Heck we hit the moon with one :roll:

Let them figure out how to put warheads on that one - we could help a bit though.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by JE Menon »

Sure no objection to pslv (without bells and whistles) going to the paks with advise as well. Apparently even Indira Gandhi thought the idea of transferring nuke tech was a good one...
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Re: Deterrence

Post by Vayutuvan »

JE Menon

According to most of our media and Pakistan's and the "West" - they already can target all corners of India.
The part hi-lighted in red is the real fly in the ointment. Right now let us say the chances of Truth/Falsity of the above statement are even (lacking more info from open sources). By giving the tech (unless we put some "disable" codes) we are going to double (or near enough) the expected value of our second strike capability getting wiped out. If some leaks from wikileaks increase the chances of the above statement being true then that might be worthwhile. Stakes are unimaginably high in this game and the reward for a wrong guess is annihilation of our culture as we know it.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by JE Menon »

Matrimc,

I agree the media may be completely clueless about Pakistan's actual arsenal size and reach. But from what Pakistan has tested, we can only assume that it is more true than not - at least about the reach. The size of arsenal is open to question.

I'm not sure I understand your argument about them being able to wipe out our second strike capability, i.e. it being enabled by the ICBMs we give them. Are they going to target our nuclear submarines with a ballistic ICBM? Maybe I misunderstood... I didn't quite get that statment about the second-strike.

>>Stakes are unimaginably high in this game and the reward for a wrong guess is annihilation of our culture as we know it.

This is an interesting and crucial observation. The key here is the "reward for a wrong guess"... Remember, that in this context the nuclear threshold is virtually non-existent - i.e. it could well be argued by Kidwai and his cohorts/successors (don't know if he's still in position) that the threshold has already been breached. Note that the Pakistani position basically is that "if the shit hits the fan in Pakistan, then we'll nuke the fu(k out of Hindustan" (it even rhymes).

The question here is what is the definition of "shit hits the fan", i.e. the state of play when all conditions of shit hitting the fan have been achieved? The Pakisatanic answer is "when we say it has". So, "a wrong guess" could be something as simple as a comprehensive TTP attack on military bases in Pakistan, or Kayani's assassination, or Mushy's ass being torn apart. It's anybody's wrong guess.

That being the case, where is the harm in us giving the Paks the capability to hit not just us, but our good friends and allies and strategic partners too?

Finally I don't agree that a strike by Pakistan will lead to "annihilation of our culture as we know it". It will be a significant kick in the nuts though.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ramana »

I think not much is to be gained by out of box blue sky ideas except that such were discussed in this forum.
So lets stick to India and not worry about TSP.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by JE Menon »

Thank you for your opinion Ramana. But no discussion on the forum, blue sky or otherwise, is likely to have much impact anywhere other than on the forum, unless it has already been thought of (BRFites of course believe we are ahead of the curve). We might interest someone somewhere... that's about it.

So it might be advisable not to discourage a line of thinking that I have yet to see any substantial argument against. Interestingly, it is also a line which will get rid of the 3.5 friends in one stroke, at least in terms of their boxing in India.

If only for exploratory purposes, such a discussion should not be discouraged, and sticking to India and not worrying about TSP on the question of deterrence (which is what this thread is about) seems rather an unusual posture.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ramana »

What ever. I said my piece. Can we please do that in another thread for this thread has years of knowledge on India and Indian deterrence?
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Re: Deterrence

Post by JE Menon »

I've said my piece too.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by Vayutuvan »

JE Menon wrote:I'm not sure I understand your argument about them being able to wipe out our second strike capability, i.e. it being enabled by the ICBMs we give them. Are they going to target our nuclear submarines with a ballistic ICBM? Maybe I misunderstood... I didn't quite get that statment about the second-strike.
JEM,

I am alluding to the Andamans. Do we know that there is no second strike capability positioned there?

As for the destruction of Indian civilization (please note that I include both Islam and Christianity as these two are unique and different in India as compared to elsewhere), I believe that a handful of nukes spread uniformly over India will result in such an event. In fact, there are certain unique cultures and ethnic groups like (in no particular order) Lambadis, Gonds, Bheels, Parsis, Indian Jews, Jains and Buddhists and small linguistic populations who would be either be wiped out or take a beating from which they would not be able to recover. Monuments, unexplored/incompletely explored archaeological sites, unique flora and fauna and on and on. You get the idea.

IM very HO, a strategy of sucker-punching Pakistan into taking small/large but public and highly visible steps towards "acquiring ICBM tech" in the medium term is superior to the gifting of technology. The latter is irreversible but both achieve the same objective, i.e. "Snake, crow, and Queen's necklace" from Panchatantra.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by JE Menon »

Matrimc,

We should have a second strike capability positioned in the Andamans of course, would be silly not to have one. But, it would not be our only 2nd strike capability, and if anything, that capability will be undersea for much of the time. Plus there would be such capability on the mainland as well. One has to assume that Pakistan will be able to strike every such facility, so only the submerged one will be truly relevant. Andamans would be struck, undoubtedly, just as the rest of India - but unfortunately that's the prize of a nuclearised world; and we are of course assuming that China would stay out, because if not, then the Andaman argument does not arise.

>>As for the destruction of Indian civilization (please note that I include both Islam and Christianity as these two are unique and different in India as compared to elsewhere) ... In fact, there are certain unique cultures and ethnic groups ... who would be either be wiped out or take a beating from which they would not be able to recover... You get the idea.

Do you mean to say this cannot happen if Pakistan does not have ICBMs?

>>IM very HO, a strategy of sucker-punching Pakistan into taking small/large but public and highly visible steps towards "acquiring ICBM tech" in the medium term is superior to the gifting of technology. The latter is irreversible but both achieve the same objective, i.e. "Snake, crow, and Queen's necklace" from Panchatantra.

Perhaps I was misunderstood because of my rather "cafe banter" style of introducing the subject. I'm not suggesting that we (necessarily) walk up to Pakistan and say, here, guys, take the ICBM tech and build your own, or "here's everything, including the Green paint and Urdu manual" :) ... On the contrary, these morons may then reject it. No, what I'm suggesting is that they gain access to it - there are many ways - without (necessarily) any direct linkage to us. The essence here is not "how" they get it, from my side, but rather that they get it somehow with minimum PR damage for us. You see our gain in their having it, not in the method in which they acquire it.

Once they get it, and no doubt they will yell about it to the high heavens, consider the impact. Hafeez Said, Pakistan's Minister of Defence (Non-State), will certainly have a few things to say about it, and its implications for all and sundry. Consider the governmental chatter in the capitals of the 3.5 friends. Will they be in a position, as they have until now, to say simply that so long as it is India's problem that's not for us to worry too much about (and maybe even encourage). Like I said, in a situation where Pakistan is now able to threaten them too, what goes of my father? Not saying that parts of China are not already under its coverage...
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Re: Deterrence

Post by Vayutuvan »

JEM,

Part of my answer was just a counterpoint to your statement that India getting nuked is not (sorry missed the negation the first time around)the end of Indian civilization. Now I see that you seem to agree that it would deal a big blow.

As for the other part, if at all possible, Pakistan should be perceived to be very very close to getting the tech but not really get it - something like the crow drops a "one gram gold" necklace into the snake's nest or the "small dark rice eating" crow is spotted negotiating with the "hood" (PA) of the snake with a necklace in it's claws.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by JE Menon »

Yeah, I was about to reply to above and then I realised you probably misread it :) ... But yes, I definitely agree that it would deal a big blow. (Was not changing position on that. It is common sense that even a moderately well-targeted nuclear attack on ANY country would be a big blow to it). But my point is that such a blow is not contingent on Pakistan having ICBMs. They can deliver that blow right now based on their threat threshold, which is like I said above perilously vague and malleable. And if it does that, who can say that their threshold has not been breached? In other words, we are permanently under a clear and present nuclear threat from Pakisatan.

This reality does not impinge on the benefits that derive to India from Pakistan gaining access or having ICBMs.

As for how it should be perceived "very very close to getting the tech but not really getting it" or actually displaying the ICBMs during a military parade, I suspect greater clarity of mind among both Pakistan's and India's friends and allies (both NATO & non-NATO) will be achieved with the latter. Especially if Minister of Defence (Non-State) Hafeez Saeed is his usual voluble and garrulous self.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

India's Nuclear Triad: A Net Assessment - Ajey Lele and Parveen Bhardwaj My issue with a paper like this is, it almost entirely depends on western sources to understand our own and the region. Not a single one of the references were unknown to me, which is sad and seems recycling same old, without any insight. :(
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:India's Nuclear Triad: A Net Assessment - Ajey Lele and Parveen Bhardwaj My issue with a paper like this is, it almost entirely depends on western sources to understand our own and the region. Not a single one of the references were unknown to me, which is sad and seems recycling same old, without any insight. :(
This is because we in India have not spent enough money and effort opening and funding our own universities and chairs that serve as our think tanks. All the papers and thought material is western and that is mugged up and vomited out by western and Indian "experts" in exactly the same way that we self-flagellatingly accuse our school system of encouraging and perpeuating. Western think tanks and linguists are doing the same crap - building up and enlarging earlier piles of crap built up by earlier blinkered and bigoted small people
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ramana »

original posted by Vinod TK

From Hindustan Times Blog: India’s nuclear logic
The former Indian foreign secretary, Shyam Saran, gave a revealing speech on India’s nuclear deterrent on April 24th. The speech was titled, somewhat vaguely, “Is India’s Nuclear Deterrent Credible?”

But it more usefully updated India’s nuclear weapons status in a way that hasn’t happened since the release of the draft nuclear doctrine back in the early 2000s.

The most striking part of the speech doctrinally responded to Pakistan’s supposed move to develop tactical nuclear capability. Saran made it clear that India wouldn’t distinguish between a kiloton weapon aimed at tanks or a megatonner aimed at a city. “The label on a nuclear weapon used for attacking India, strategic or tactical, is irrelevant from the Indian perspective. A limited nuclear war is a contradiction in terms. Any nuclear exchange, once initiated, would swiftly and inexorably escalate to the strategic level. Pakistan would be prudent not to assume otherwise as it sometimes appears to do, most recently by developing and perhaps deploying theatre nuclear weapons.”


The speech also fitted in place missing bits of India’s nuclear puzzle.

He confirmed that two legs of India’s nuclear triad — airborne weapons and rail and mobile land-based nuclear warheads — have been completed. And he laid out a timetable for the completion of the third submarine-based leg.

He also confirmed that an official nuclear doctrine has been approved, and bemoaned the face it has not been made public.

“Since January 4, 2003, when India adopted its nuclear doctrine formally at a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), it has moved to put in place, at a measured pace, a triad of land-based, air-delivered and submarine-based nuclear forces and delivery assets to conform to its declared doctrine of no-first use and retaliation only. It has had to create a command and control infrastructure that can survive a first strike and a fully secure communication system that is reliable and hardened against radiation or electronic interference.” Saran argues that if the doctrine cannot be revealed, then India should at least release an annual Strategic Posture Review.

I feel Saran pulled his punches on arguing for the doctrine to be made public. Deterrent works only by being transparent about intent and capability. Otherwise, an opponent may conclude the deterrent is a bluff. At a time when Pakistan is slowly losing its political marbles, the logic of such transparency is stronger than ever.

The speech also lays out a potted history of India’s nuclear posture. One of the more forceful parts of the speech refutes the argument that India went nuclear largely for reasons of prestige. It was China, China and China, Saran makes clear.

“I find somewhat puzzling assertions by some respected security analysts, both Indian and foreign, that India’s nuclear weapons programme has been driven by notions of prestige or global standing rather than by considerations of national security.”

He also makes the argument that India’s nuclear environment with its three-nation minuet makes a lot of the strategy that evolved in the West irrelevant. “It is because of this complexity that notions of flexible response and counter-force targeting, which appeared to have a certain logic in a binary US-Soviet context, lose their relevance in the multi-dimensional threat scenario which prevails certainly in our region.” This is an interesting argument but needs a lot more explaining than this speech was able to.
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ramana »

Full text of Shyam Saran's speech at IIHC, New Delhi
Is India’s Nuclear Deterrent Credible?
Shyam Saran, Chairman NSAB
India Habitat Centre, New Delhi
April 24, 2013.

Mr Chairman, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen,
I wish to thank the Subbu Forum and the Society for Policy Studies, in particular my friend, Commodore Uday Bhaskar and the India Habitat Centre for once again giving me an opportunity to share with you my thoughts on certain issues of contemporary relevance to India's national security. And thank you, Sanjaya, for doing me the honour of presiding over this meeting. I recall well our fighting in the trenches together during the difficult negotiations on the Indo-US civil nuclear agreement. While I have been introduced as the Chairman of India's National Security Advisory Board I must hasten to add that the views I shall be sharing with you today are entirely my own and do not in any way reflect those of the Board or the government. These are views that have evolved over a fairly long period of time drawing upon my earlier experience dealing with disarmament and international security issues at the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva, the two year stint I had at the Prime Minister's Office in 1991-92, handling issues relating to External Affairs, Defence and Atomic Energy and more recently my involvement in the Indo-US negotiations on a Civil Nuclear Cooperation agreement, both as Foreign Secretary and later as Prime Minister's Special Envoy. I cannot claim personal familiarity with our strategic establishment but I believe my engagement with it has given me a sense of how our security perceptions have evolved over the years and how different generations of our political leadership have dealt with the security challenges confronting the country. I make this presentation in the hope that there could be a more informed discourse on the role of India's strategic programme in national security,a discourse that is truly rooted in India's own circumstance rather than influenced by external commentaries.

India became a declared nuclear weapon state in May 1998, although it had maintained a capability to assemble nuclear explosive devices and had developed a delivery capability both in terms of aircraft as well as missiles several years previously. In May 1998, this capability was finally translated into an explicit and declared nuclear weapon status . This is important to recognize because India did not overnight become a nuclear weapon capable state in May 1998. It was already a state with nuclear weapons capability and had the capacity to deliver such weapons to their targets but until the May 1998 tests, a deliberate choice had been made to defer the acquisition of a nuclear weapon arsenal as long as there was still hope that the world would eventually move towards a complete elimination of these weapons of mass destruction. India's leaders recognised the prudence of developing and maintaining national capability and capacity to develop strategic assets if this became necessary but the preference remained for realising the objective of a nuclear weapon free world.The nuclear tests of May 1998 reflected the judgement that nuclear disarmament was no longer on the agenda of the nuclear weapon states. On the contrary, their objective was to make permanent the division of the world into nuclear haves and have- nots, which India had rejected since the very dawn on the atomic age.

India’s policy towards nuclear weapons evolved over a period of nearly three decades and this evolution was impacted by several significant developments in the country’s security environment. The testing of a nuclear weapon by China in 1964 was the first major driver.There is evidence that both Nehru and Homi Bhabha had not excluded the possibility of India acquiring nuclear weapons even earlier, in case India’s security and defence warranted it. India's first plutonium separation plant came up in 1964 itself at Trombay when both Nehru and Bhabha were still in office.The pursuit of strategic capability took time and each subsequent stage would be linked to certain adverse developments in India's security environment. It would be 10 years before India carried out a peaceful nuclear explosion, in 1974, to signal its capability to design and fabricate a nuclear explosive device. In the background were a series of developments which had heightened India’s security concerns and led to Prime Minister Indira Gandhi’s decision to approve the nuclear test:
i.The conclusion of the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in 1968 which sought to prevent the emergence of any new nuclear weapon states, without a concomitant and credible commitment on the part of the existing nuclear weapon states to achieve nuclear disarmament within a reasonable time frame. India had to stay out of the treaty in order to maintain its nuclear option.

ii.The NPT was followed by the 1971 Bangladesh war and an unwelcome Sino-US axis targeting India. The appearance of USS Enterprise in the Bay of Bengal heightened India’s sense of vulnerability.

The next phase in the acquisition of capabilities is also linked to certain new developments adversely affecting India’s security. Reports began to appear that China had delivered a fully tested nuclear bomb design to Pakistan in 1983. China may have tested a Pakistani weapon at the Lop Nor test site in 1990.Pakistan emerged as a “front-line state” in the war against Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the decade of the ninety-eighties, bringing fresh worries to India's security planners. It's feverish and clandestine pursuit of nuclear weapons capability also heightened threat perceptions in India, particularly when it became clear that the U.S. was not willing to deter Pakistan from the quest, given its equities in the ongoing war. This also marks the phase when Pakistan’s nuclear weapon programme, which was led by its civilian political leaders, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and later Ghulam Ishaaq Khan, passed into the hands of its military establishment, thus acquiring an altogether more sinister dimension. Today, Pakistan is the only nuclear-armed state where it is the military and not the civilian political leadership that is in effective control of its nuclear arsenal. During this period, India's sense of vulnerability increased due to the surge in Khalistani insurgency, aided and abetted by Pakistan as also the blow back from the ongoing war in Afghanistan. Despite these developments Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi launched a major initiative at the United Nations in 1988 to promote a world free of nuclear weapons through the Action Plan on Nuclear Disarmament. This was a serious effort to promote nuclear disarmament which would enable India to avoid the less preferable alternative of itself becoming a nuclear weapon state in order to safeguard its security and political independence.

The decade of the nineties marks the next phase in India’s nuclear trajectory, leading up to the “break-out” in May 1998. This phase was marked by a serious debate within the political leadership over whether the time had come to go ahead with a declared nuclear weapon status or whether the likely international political and economic fallout made this a costly choice. As the decade of the nineteen nineties unfolded, it became abundantly clear that the choice was being forced on India as a consequence of several serious geopolitical developments.

What were the drivers during this phase? One, the U.S. emerged as a hyper-power after the demise of the Soviet Union and this severely narrowed India’s strategic space. Two, the nuclear weapon states moved to enforce a permanent status on the NPT in 1995, thereby perpetuating the division between nuclear weapons states and non-nuclear weapon states, with oblique threats to use the U.N. Security Council to sanction and to penalize those countries which resisted the universalization of the NPT. This would have put India in state of permanent strategic vulnerability to nuclear threat and nuclear blackmail. This may have happened during India-Pakistan tensions in 1990 though the record is ambiguous on this score (Yaqub Khan’s visit to Delhi in 1990 is said to have been undertaken to convey the threat of nuclear retaliation against India in case the latter moved its conventional military forces to threaten or to attack Pakistan). During 1991-92, one was also witness to a determined attempt by the U.S. to put serious limits on India’s civilian space and missile programme by pressuring Russia under President Yeltsin to deny India the cryogenic engine technology that it needed to upgrade its civilian space capabilities. The precipitating factor proved to be the effort in 1996 to push through a discriminatory Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT), which would have permanently foreclosed India's options to develop a credible and fully tested nuclear deterrent. These developments in the decade of the nineties meant that India could no longer have any credible assurance of its security in the absence of its own independent nuclear deterrent. It would confront increased vulnerability vis-a-vis its adversaries, its security would have been severely undermined and made its quest for strategic autonomy a mirage. It is against this background that a decision was taken in May 1998 to breach the narrowing nuclear containment ring around the country and assert India’s determination to retain its ability to deter threats from States hostile to it and to ensure an environment in which it could pursue its development priorities without disruption. This is clearly articulated in India’s Draft Nuclear Doctrine released in August 1999. The official Doctrine based mainly on the draft was adopted in January 2003, but its full text has not been shared with the public.

It is important to keep this historical perspective in mind because the nuclear tests carried out in May 1998 were not a mere episode driven by current and largely domestic political compulsions (though this may have influenced the precise timing), but rather the logical and perhaps an even inexorable culmination of a decades-long evolution in strategic thinking, influenced by an increasingly complex and hostile security environment. The timing may have also been influenced by geopolitical developments. The end of the Cold War and the rise of China brought a sense of strategic opportunity to India . The collapse of the Soviet Union meant that the U.S. was no longer inimical to Indian interests as it had been during the Cold War years, with India seen as being on the wrong side of the fence. China’s emergence as a potential adversary to the U.S. made a more rapidly growing India an attractive countervailing power, quite apart from the opportunities it offered to U.S. business and industry. India’s swift emergence as an I.T. power and the rising affluence and influence of the India-American community, reinforced the positive shift in American perceptions about India. Therefore, while fully conscious of the adverse fallout from its decision to undertake a series of nuclear tests and to establish itself as a declared nuclear weapon state, Indian leaders may also have calculated that such fallout would be temporary and India’s growing strategic relevance would eventually overcome such impediments. This judgement has proved to be true in most respects.

There is no doubt that the shift to a declared nuclear weapon state posture confronts India with new and more complex challenges. These challenges involve the nature and structure of the nuclear weapon arsenal as well as delivery assets. India has articulated a nuclear doctrine that is appropriate to the current geopolitical environment, is aligned with its existing and projected levels of technological capabilities and affordability and most importantly, is reflective of India’s domestic realities and its value system. The people of India want their leaders to pursue an independent foreign policy, maintain strategic autonomy and safeguard the security of the country and its citizens by having adequate means to deter threats to national sovereignty and territorial integrity. Sustaining democracy within the country is seen as integrally linked to the ability of the State to deliver on these fundamental aspirations. At various stages of India’s contemporary history, the Indian state has pursued different strategies to achieve these objectives in a nuclearized, asymmetrical and often hostile regional and global environment. It has had to make difficult choices including embracing a three decades long strategic partnership with the Soviet Union which helped the country to meet the threat from an implacably hostile and belligerent Pakistan and a China that turned into a threatening and often arrogant adversary post India’s humiliating defeat in the 1962 border war. Those who perennially bemoan India’s lack of strategic culture such as the recent Economist article, seem strangely reluctant to acknowledge the difficult choices that governments of every persuasion in the country have made whether in seeking strategic partners, maintaining a nuclear option or eventually exercising that option despite the odds confronting us. That mistakes have been made, that sometimes opportunities have been missed or our judgments were misplaced is undeniable. But if having a strategy means the readiness to make reasoned choices, then India has demonstrated an ability to think and act strategically.

It is against this background that I find somewhat puzzling assertions by some respected security analysts, both Indian and foreign, that India’s nuclear weapons programme has been driven by notions of prestige or global standing rather than by considerations of national security. For example, typical of comments from U.S. analysts is the remarkable observation that “India now lacks a credible theory of how nuclear weapons might be used than as an instrument of national pride and propaganda”.

India does have a credible theory of how its nuclear weapons may be used and that is spelt out in its nuclear doctrine. One may or may not agree with that doctrine but to claim that India does not have a credible theory about the use of nuclear weapons does not accord with facts. Yes it is true that since January 4, 2003 when India adopted its nuclear doctrine formally at a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), it has moved to put in place,at a measured pace,a triad of land-based, air-delivered and submarine-based nuclear forces and delivery assets to conform to its declared doctrine of no-first use and retaliation only. It has had to create a command and control infrastructure that can survive a first strike and a fully secure communication system that is reliable and hardened against radiation or electronic interference. A number of redundancies have had to be created to strengthen survivability. In all these respects, significant progress has been achieved. To expect that these should have emerged overnight after May1998 is a rather naïve expectation. India today has a long range ballistic missile capability and is on the road to a submarine - based missile capability. These capabilities will be further improved as time goes on and more resources become available. The record since the May 1998 nuclear tests demonstrates quite clearly a sustained and systematic drive to operationalize the various components of the nuclear deterrent in a manner best suited to India’s security environment. This is not the record of a state which considers nuclear weapons as “instrument of national pride and propaganda”.

There is a similar refrain in Chinese commentaries on India’s nuclear weapons programme. Here is a typical Chinese comment:

“Unlike China, which was forced to develop its nuclear option under a clear nuclear threat, India has never been faced with an immediate major military or nuclear threat that would require New Delhi to have a nuclear weapon option to ensure its national survival. The acquisition of nuclear weapons appears to have been almost entirely motivated by politics. India seems to have an explicit strategic goal; to be accepted as a world power. And this goal seems to reflect India’s deep rooted belief that nuclear weapons constitute an effective physical signature of world power status, and even short-cut to this status”.

And this extraordinary assessment of India’s quest for security in a nuclearized regional and global environment comes from an analyst in a country which over the years actively and relentlessly contributed to the clandestine nuclear weapons programme of Pakistan, firstly by providing it with the design of a tested weapon and later by assisting it with developing its missile capabilities, both directly and through its North Korean ally. This is a rare case where a nuclear weapon state has actively promoted the acquisition of nuclear weapon capability by a non-nuclear weapon State, though similar allegations have been made about US and French assistance to Israel. Chinese assistance to Pakistan's strategic programme continues apace.

Could India ignore the implications of this alliance and the role of Pakistan as a most convenient Chinese proxy to pose a nuclear threat to India? The narrative that I have sketched out does not square with the observation that “India has never been faced with an immediate major military or nuclear threat that would require New Delhi to have a nuclear weapon option to ensure its national survival”. And it is rather odd that a representative of a country whose iconic leader Mao Zedong called for “politics in command” can now say that India’s nuclear programme has been “almost entirely motivated by politics”. Of course, it has been, but not the politics of seeking world power status as is claimed, but the politics of keeping India and its citizens safe from nuclear threats. We have long been familiar with the Chinese predilection to dismiss India’s role in international affairs as that of a pretender too big for its boots, while China's super power status is, of course, regarded as manifest destiny. One should reject such self-serving assertions.

What is worrying, however, is that this status-seeking argument has been finding an echo among some Indian analysts as well. One analyst recently claimed:
“During its long and unfocused nuclear weapons quest, India came to develop a highly self-absorbed approach. This was because India’s dominant objective was political and technological prestige, while for every other nuclear weapon state it was deterrence.”

Such sweeping statements show a lack of familiarity with the history of India’s nuclear weapons programme, set against the broader political and security backdrop. They also serve to diminish the very legitimacy of India’s nuclear weapons status though this may not be the intention. For if deterrence was not the reason for which India became a nuclear weapon state, but only for “political and technological prestige”, then why should it have nuclear weapons in the first place?

If the argument is that India has and does face threats for which a nuclear deterrent is required, but that these have been ignored by successive generations of India’s political and security elite, then obviously it must be a mere fortuitous coincidence that we have strayed into a strategic capability. This elite, it is implied comprehends neither the security threats nor the manner in which this accidental acquisition of nuclear weapons and delivery capabilities, must be operationalized. This does not square with facts.

The thesis that India’s nuclear deterrent is mostly symbolic is, for some, driven by the perception that India’s armed forces are not fully part of the strategic decision-making process and that they play second fiddle to the civilian bureaucracy and the scientific establishment. Even if this perception was true, and in fact it is not, one cannot accept that the credibility of India’s nuclear deterrence demands management by its military. The very nature of nuclear deterrence as practiced by a civilian democracy dictates that decisions relating to the nature and scope of the arsenal, its deployment and use, be anchored in the larger architecture of democratic governance. It is the civilian political leadership that must make judgments about domestic political, social and economic priorities as well as the imperatives imposed by a changing regional and global geopolitical environment. The military must be enabled to provide its own perspectives and inputs, just as other segments of the state must do. Undoubtedly the military’s inputs and its advice would have to carry weight, especially in operational matters. But to equate exclusive military management of strategic forces, albeit under the political leadership’s overall command, as the sine qua non of deterrence credibility is neither necessary nor desirable. One should certainly encourage better civil-military relations and coordination. It may also be argued that the military’s inputs into strategic planning and execution should be enhanced to make India’s nuclear deterrent more effective. But one should not equate shortcomings in these respects with the absence of a credible nuclear deterrent.

If we look at the current status of India’s nuclear deterrent and its command and control system, it is clear that at least two legs of the triad referred to in our nuclear doctrine are already in place. These include a modest arsenal, nuclear capable aircraft and missiles both in fixed underground silos as well as those which are mounted on mobile rail and road-based platforms. These land-based missiles include both Agni-II (1500 km) as well as Agni-III (2500 km) missiles. The range and accuracy of further versions for example, Agni V (5000 km) which was tested successfully only recently, will improve with the acquisition of further technological capability and experience. The third leg of the triad which is submarine-based, is admittedly a work in progress. We need at least three Arihant class nuclear submarines so that at least one will always be at sea. Submarine-based missiles systems have been developed and tested in the form of the Sagarika but these are still relatively short in range. It is expected that a modest sea-based deterrence will be in place by 2015 or 2016.There is also a major R&D programme which has been in place since 2005, for the development of a new,longer range and more accurate generation of submarine-based missiles which is likely to ready for deployment around 2020.

The National Command Authority is in charge of India’s nuclear deterrent. At its apex is the Political Council which is headed by the Prime Minister and includes all the ministerial members of the Cabinet Committee on Security such as the Ministers of Defence,Home and External Affairs. Below the Political Council is the Executive Council which is headed by the National Security Advisor and includes the Chiefs of the three armed forces, the C-in-C of India's Strategic Forces Command, a three star officer, among others.There is an alternate National Command Authority which would take up the functions of nuclear command in case of any contingency when the established hierarchy is rendered dysfunctional. The NCA has access to radiation hardened and fully secured communications systems where,too, redundancies have been put in place as back-up facilities.

In order to support the NCA, a Strategy Programme Staff has been created in the National Security Council Secretariat to carry out general staff work for the National Command Authority. This unit is charged with looking at the reliability and quality of our weapons and delivery systems, collate intelligence on other nuclear weapon states particularly those in the category of potential adversaries and work on a perspective plan for India's nuclear deterrent in accordance with a ten year cycle. The Strategy Programme Staff has representatives from the three services, from our Science and Technology establishment and other experts from related domains, including External Affairs.A Strategic Armament Safety Authority has been set up to review and to update storage and transfer procedures for nuclear armaments,including the submarine based component. It will be responsible for all matters relating to the safety and security of our nuclear and delivery assets at all locations.This will function under the direct authority of the NCA.

The National Command Authority works on a two-person rule for access to armaments and delivery systems.
Regular drills are conducted to examine possible escalatory scenarios, surprise attack scenarios and the efficiency of our response systems under the no first use limitation. Thanks to such repeated and regular drills, the level of confidence in our nuclear deterrent has been strengthened.Specialized units have also been trained and deployed for operation in a nuclearized environment.

These details may already be known but I am highlighting them to make the point that while further reforms may be required to make our deterrent more robust, it is unhelpful to peddle the impression that it is dysfunctional or worse that it is non-existent.

In much of Western literature, one finds frequent comments about the professional manner in which the Strategic Planning Group, in charge of Pakistan’s nuclear assets, is run and how effective and transparent measures have been put in place to ensure the safety and security of these weapons. What is rarely highlighted is that among nuclear-weapon states today, Pakistan is the only country where nuclear assets are under the command and control of the military and it is the military’s perceptions and ambitions which govern the development, deployment and use of these weapons. This is a dangerous situation precisely because the military’s perceptions are not fully anchored in a larger national political and economic narrative. The pursuit of a more powerful, more effective and more sophisticated nuclear arsenal, dictated by the Pakistani military, may run in parallel with a steadily deteriorating political, social and economic environment. Would it be possible to island an efficiently managed and sophisticated nuclear arsenal amidst an increasingly dysfunctional polity? There is an air of unreality about the often adulatory remarks about the Pakistani military’s stewardship of the country’s nuclear assets. There are anxieties about its continuing build up of nuclear weapons and delivery vehicles but these are conveniently ascribed to the threat perceived from India.More recently,Pakistan's relentless build up of its nuclear arsenal,its refusal to allow the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva to undertake multilateral negotiations on a Fissile Material Cut-Off Treaty (FMCT) and its threat to deploy theatre nuclear weapons to meet a so-called Indian conventional armed thrust across the border have all been laid at the door of the Indo-US Civil Nuclear Agreement, which it is claimed has upset the "nuclear balance"in South Asia.The votaries of non-proliferation in the West have criticised the Agreement as having allowed "exceptionalism"in favour of India,which has encouraged a nuclear arms race between India and Pakistan.Pakistan openly demands that it too be given a nuclear deal like India,otherwise it would continue to produce larger quantities of fissile material and push the nuclear threshold even lower in order to retain the credibility of its nuclear deterrent. The exception provided to India rests on India's universally acknowledged and exceptional record as a responsible nuclear state as contrasted with Pakistan's equally exceptional record as a source of serial proliferation and in possession of a nuclear programme born in deceit and deception.There is no moral equivalence in this respect between the two countries and this point must be driven home every time Pakistan claims parity.We should not allow such an insiduous campaign to affect our proposed membership of the NSG and the MTCR.

In dismissing India’s nuclear deterrent as driven by pride and prestige, Pakistani nuclear deterrent is sought to be projected as somehow more understandable, more justified, because unlike India, it is said to be driven by so-called real security threats.The more hysterical the articulation of these imaginary threats the more justified the rapidly growing Pakistani nuclear arsenal is seen to be in the eyes of some motivated analysts. The next link in the argument would be that if only India could be persuaded to discard its pride and false sense of prestige and status, a strategic restraint regime, if not a non-nuclear regime, between the two sides would become possible and the world relieved from having to deal with the “most dangerous part of the world.”

Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are certainly focused in large part on the threat from India, real or imagined.In the present case,the Pakistani motivation is to dissuade India from contemplating conventional punitive retaliation to sub-conventional but highly destructive and disruptive cross-border terrorist strikes such as the horrific 26/11 attack on Mumbai.What Pakistan is signalling to India and to the world is that India should not contemplate retaliation even if there is another Mumbai because Pakistan has lowered the threshold of nuclear use to the theatre level. This is nothing short of nuclear blackmail, no different from the irresponsible behaviour one witnesses in North Korea.It deserves equal condemnation by the international community because it is not just a threat to India but to international peace and security.Should the international community countenance a license to aid and abet terrorism by a state holding out a threat of nuclear war?

But today given the evidence available, is it even possible to claim that the so-called Indian threat is the sole motivation which drives Pakistan's nuclear programme?

Let us look at some of the significant shifts that have taken place recently in Pakistan’s nuclear posture, taking it from declared “minimum deterrence” to a possible second strike capability:
1.There is a calculated shift from the earlier generation of enriched uranium nuclear weapons to a newer generation of plutonium weapons.
2.Plutonium weapons would enable Pakistan to significantly increase the number of weapons in its arsenal, Pakistan is reported to have overtaken India’s nuclear weapon inventory and, in a decade, may well surpass those held by Britain , France and China.
3.Progress has been claimed in the miniaturization of weapons, enabling their use with cruise missiles and also with a new generation of short range and tactical missiles .This is not yet fully verified but the intent is clear.
4.Pakistan has steadily pursued the improvement of the range and accuracy of its delivery vehicles, building upon the earlier Chinese models (the Hatf series) and the later North Korean models (the No-dong series). The newer missiles, including the Nasr, are solid-fuelled, which can be launched more speedily than the older liquid fuelled ones.
5.Pakistan’s nuclear programme brings its scientific and technological accomplishments into the limelight. Pakistan repeatedly draws attention to its being the only Islamic country to have a sophisticated nuclear weapons programme. This gives it a special standing in the Islamic world. One should not under-estimate the prestige factor in this regard.

These developments are driven by a mind-set which seeks parity with and even overtaking India, irrespective of the cost this entails. However, they are also driven by the more recent fear that the U.S. may carry out an operation, like the one mounted in May 2011, to kill Osama Bin Laden in Abbotabad , to disable, destroy or confiscate, its nuclear weapons. The increase in number of weapons, the planned miniaturization of warheads and their wider dispersal, are all designed to deter the U.S. from undertaking such an operation. This aspect has acquired increasing salience in Pakistani calculations. Recent articles which claim that the US has contingency plans to take out Pakistan's nuclear weapons in case of a jihadi takeover of its government or if the Pakistan Army itself splits into a pro-jihadi and an anti-jihadi faction with the danger that the country's nuclear arsenal is no longer in safe and secure hands, must have heightened the paranoia among Pakistan's military and bureaucratic elite.


{Yet this ignores the fact that the motto of the Pak Army has Jihad in it! There will be no pro-jihadi or anti-jihad faction if Pak Army for its all pro-jihadi}

Pakistan has, nevertheless, projected its nuclear deterrent as solely targeted at India and its strategic doctrine mimics the binary nuclear equation between the U.S. and the Soviet Union which prevailed during the Cold War. But in a world of multiple nuclear actors, there is pervasive uncertainty about how the nuclear dynamic will play itself out even if a nuclear exchange commenced with only two actors. What may be a zero-sum game with two actors may not be so for a third or a fourth actor. For example, the long history of Sino-Pakistan nuclear nexus determines that China will be a factor influencing security calculations in New Delhi, Islamabad and Washington. How will a nuclear exchange, often posited between India and Pakistan, impact on China and would India be prudent not to factor that into its nuclear deterrence calculations? In the context of Japan and South Korea, can the nuclear threat posed by North Korea be delinked from China’s strategic posture in the region? How would these calculations affect U.S. nuclear posture? It is because of this complexity that notions of flexible response and counter-force targeting, which appeared to have a certain logic in a binary US-Soviet context lose their relevance in the multi-dimensional threat scenario which prevails certainly in our region. It is no longer sufficient to analyse the India-Pakistan or India-China nuclear equation only in the bilateral context.

It is also this complexity which argues for an early realization of global nuclear disarmament through multilateral negotiations and India’s championing of this cause is not all contradictory to its maintenance of a robust nuclear deterrent in the meantime.

The above background must be kept in mind when evaluating India’s continued insistence on the central tenet of its nuclear doctrine i.e., that India will not be the first to use nuclear weapons, but that if it is attacked with such weapons, it would engage in nuclear retaliation which will be massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage on its adversary. As I have pointed out earlier, the label on a nuclear weapon used for attacking India, strategic or tactical, is irrelevant from the Indian perspective. A limited nuclear war is a contradiction in terms. Any nuclear exchange, once initiated, would swiftly and inexorably escalate to the strategic level. Pakistan would be prudent not to assume otherwise as it sometimes appears to do, most recently by developing and perhaps deploying theatre nuclear weapons. It would be far better for Pakistan to finally and irreversibly abandon the long-standing policy of using cross-border terrorism as an instrument of state policy and pursue nuclear and conventional confidence building measures with India which are already on the bilateral agenda. An agreement on no first use of nuclear weapons would be a notable measure following up on the commitment already made by the two countries to maintain a moratorium on nuclear testing.

As would be apparent, in the case of India, it is the security narrative which is the most significant driver of its strategic nuclear capability though India has consistently followed a cautious and restrained approach.India's nuclear doctrine categorically affirms India's belief that its security would be enhanced not diminished in a world free of nuclear weapons. The elements of pride and prestige are supplementary as they always are in the complex basket of elements that influence strategic choices which countries make.

In my view, the mostly self-serving and misconceived notions about India’s nuclear deterrent that have found currency in the recent past, have much to do with the failure on the part of both the State as well as India’s strategic community to confront and to refute them. The ease with which motivated assessments and speculative judgments, of the kind I have drawn attention to, invade our own thinking is deeply troubling.
The secrecy which surrounds our nuclear programme, a legacy of the long years of developing and maintaining strategic capabilities , is now counter-productive. There is not enough data or information that flows from the guardians of our strategic assets to enable reasoned judgments and evaluations. There has been significant progress in the modernization and operationalisation of our strategic assets, but this is rarely and only anecdotally shared with the public. The result is an information vacuum which then gets occupied by either ill-informed or motivated speculation or assessments. To begin with, I would hope that the Government makes public its nuclear doctrine and releases data regularly on what steps have been taken and are being taken to put the requirements of the doctrine in place. It is not necessary to share operational details but an overall survey such as an annual Strategic Posture Review, should be shared with the citizens of the country who, after all, pay for the security which the deterrent is supposed to provide to them. An informed and vigorous debate based on accurate and factual information should be welcomed, because only through such debate can concepts be refined, contingencies identified and the most effective responses formulated. There is need to take the people of India into confidence about the risks and benefits of maintaining a nuclear deterrent. In a democracy, this is critical to upholding a broad consensus on dealing with the complex and constantly evolving security challenges our country confronts.

I thank you for your attention.
After KS garu's demise SS has stepped up to the plate and justified KS's confidence in him.
ShauryaT
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Re: Deterrence

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote: After KS garu's demise SS has stepped up to the plate and justified KS's confidence in him.
No wonder BK does not see eye-eye with SS. They are friends though. Good to have these differing views to represent Indian interests.
shiv
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Re: Deterrence

Post by shiv »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20093
Even a midget nuke strike will lead to massive retaliation, India warns Pak
NEW DELHI: India will retaliate massively even if Pakistan uses tactical nuclear weapons against it. With Pakistan developing "tactical" nuclear warheads, that is, miniaturizing its weapons to be carried on short-range missiles, India will protect its security interests by retaliating to a "smaller" tactical attack in exactly the same manner as it would respond to a "big" strategic attack.
This is the kind of language I would like to see rather than the weak cowardly language that "India worries", "Army anxious", "China issues demarche", "Pakistan responds angrily" language that our press uses giving the exact impression needed for Pakistanis to describe Indians as "shivering in their dhotis" or "will run at the sound of gunfire"
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