Indian Naval Discussion

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 27 Mar 2013 23:05

Loved tsarkars post. Yes I agree Arihant is the first SSMN. If you can fit 4 brahmos into each tube it can carry either 4 K-4 IRBM or 12- K-15 Hybrid missile of MRBM range or 16 Brahmos AShM and hopefully 36-40 torps and Nirbhay SLCM.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 27 Mar 2013 23:46

Ravi Shankaran loses extradition appeal

Ravi Shankaran, a retired Indian naval officer who fled to Britain to escape trial in India on charges of leaking classified defence information, has lost his appeal against extradition.

A British court on Wednesday ruled that his team had presented no new evidence to prove that he had no “prima facie case to answer.” On the other hand, “a case to answer has been made out” against him.

Shankaran’s legal team plans to appeal. He was granted conditional bail requiring him to make a deposit of £20,000 and live at a fixed address provided to the court. He cannot leave the country without the court’s permission.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 28 Mar 2013 05:49

India looks to Russia for self-reliance in designing warships

ndia is eyeing a tie-up with Russia to enhance its self-reliance in design and development of warships, including submarines, for the Navy and the Coast Guard.

A tie-up between the Kerala-based National Institute of Research and Development in Defence Shipbuilding (NIRDESH) and Russia’s Krylov Institute is on the cards, officials here said.

The Russian institute, set up in the 1890s, can help NIRDESH augment its capabilities. The Krylov Institute is the principal institution of the national shipbuilding industry and has a status of the Russian Federation State Research Centre for naval commercial ships. This status comes due to the high qualification of staff researchers and experts who have established their own world-recognised schools of learning and the unique complement of experimental facilities combined with innovative in-house research methods and tools. The Institute has all key experimental facilities relevant for several key aspects of the marine technologies.

NIRDESH was launched on January 4, 2011 by Defence Minister A.K. Antony to help in developing a robust defence industrial base by providing technology support and promoting ancillary industry participation in the defence shipbuilding sector.

Nodal officer

At a meeting of the Board of Governors of NIRDESH, headed by the Defence Minister, who is also the chairman of the institute, it was decided to appoint the head of the Naval Design Directorate as the nodal officer to support NIRDESH. For, the Navy would be the biggest beneficiary out of the output of the institute, defence sources said.

A sub-committee had been appointed by the Defence Ministry to prepare a road map for NIRDESH’s growth. Another panel would examine and select research and development projects to be undertaken by the Institute.

“One project on indigenisation of rubber items used on Scorpene submarines is already progressing at the Rubber Research Institute of India at Kottayam,” the sources said. NIRDESH would also take up projects related to development of civilian vessels.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Mar 2013 12:29

Sankaran,nephew of former CNS Adm.Arun Prakash,has lost his extradition appeal in the UK.He is accused in the naval war room case where thousands of top secret documents were allegedly handed over to Abishek Verma and the French co. Thales to bag the Scorpene deal.The Scorpene deal may yet have a very lethal "sting" in it!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 242296.cms

Naval war room leak accused Shankaran loses extradition appeal
PTI | Mar 27, 2013, 04.50 PM IST

Naval leak key accused loses extradition appeal.

LONDON: Naval War Room leak case accused Ravi Shankaran on Wednesday lost his appeal against being extradited to India to stand trial.

District Judge Nicholad Evans at Westminster Magistrates Court in London said in his ruling on Wednesday that he had been presented with no evidence to prove that there wasn't a "case to answer".

The case will now be sent to the UK home secretary, Theresa May, who will decide on ordering Shankaran's extradition to India.

Shankaran, 46, a retired naval commander and relative of former Navy Chief Admiral Arun Prakash, is a key accused in the case of leaking classified information from the War Room to arms dealers.

He has been absconding since the case was registered by the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) in March 2006.

The CBI revoked his passport in May that year and secured a Red Corner Notice against him after filing a charge-sheet in July 2006.

An extradition request was sent to the UK in 2007 following reports that he was in the country and he was arrested by British authorities in April 2010 on the basis of the non-bailable arrest warrants issued by the court of chief metropolitan magistrate, New Delhi.

The 2006 Navy War Room leak case involves leaking of over 7,000 pages of defence information of sensitive nature from the naval war room and air defence headquarters.

Besides Shankaran, other accused in the case are include sacked naval commander V K Jha, former Indian Air Force wing commander S L Surve and businessmen Abhishek Verma.

More details on the key characters:

http://indianmilitarynews.wordpress.com ... room-leak/

Navy war leak case: All you need to know about Ravi Shankaran
27 03 2013

shankaran-navyleak-ibn A London court on Wednesday turned down the plea filed by Ravi Shankaran, a key accused in the Navy War Room leak case opposing the Indian government’s plea to exradite him. Rejecting his petition, the District judge Nicholad Evans at the Westminster Magistrates Court in London said that Shankaran had been presented with no evidence to prove there wasn’t a “case to answer”.

Here is all you need to know about him:

* Lieutenant (retd) Ravi Shankaran, is a decorated deep sea diver who left the navy in mid ’90s. He is the nephew of former Navy Chief Arun Prakash.

* Shankaran retired from the force citing medical reasons and floated his own company ‘Shank Ocean Engineering’, a naval supplies company.

* He is the prime accused in the 2005 Navy War Room leak case, one of the most high-profile espionage cases in the country.

* It is alleged that Shankaran was to receive crucial defence documents from the Directorate of Naval operations (Navy war room) in New Delhi. However, they were intercepted by air force intelligence from the house of wing commander S L Surve.

* The intercepted documents reportedly dealt with Indian defence purchases and the country’s defence preparedness plan.

* Between 2005 and 2006, Shankaran managed to give the CBI the slip and was believed to have been travelling in countries like France, Italy and Denmark.

* Treated as absconding, on 1 May 2006, the CBI, which had already got a non-bailable warrant and a look out notice issued against Shankaran, approached Interpol to get a red corner notice issued against Shankaran.

* In April 2010, Ravi Shankaran surrendered in London to British authorities and was arrested on the basis of a non-bailable arrest warrant issued by a court in Delhi.

* A court in Westminster began hearing his extradition petition and on 30 December 2011 the London Court held that prima facie there was a case against Shankaran, but it also allowed him to refute the same at the next hearing.

* On 27 March 2013, the court rejected Shankaran’s petition against extradition. District judge Nicholad Evans at the Westminster Magistrates Court in London said that Shankaran had been presented with no evidence to prove there wasn’t a “case to answer”.

* The District Judge has now sent the case to the UK Home Secretary Theresa May, who will decide on ordering Shankaran’s extradition to India.

Manipulating defence deals: Businessman arrested
9 06 2012

The CBI on Friday arrested controversial businessman Abhishek Verma and his wife Anca Neacsu for allegedly seeking to manipulate India’s defence orders to suit his clients.

The arrests came a day after the agency filed a case of corruption against him and a Swiss defence company and raided numerous premises in the national capital region.

Claiming to have evidence of Verma receiving more than half a million dollars from the European defence firm and acting on allegations that he may have parked a few hundred million dollars in an escrow account in the United States, the agency is widening its probe against Verma, who is being prosecuted for allegedly leaking defence secrets in what is known as the navy war room leak case.

CBI suspects that the bulk of the money in Verma’s US escrow account may be kickbacks that he allegedly received from various foreign companies for manipulating Indian government deals.

Sources said the investigations could spread to cover more defence firms that may have links to Verma.

Swiss company gave $530,000 to Verma’s firm in US

The defence deal drama involving controversial businessman Abhishek Verma and his wife Anca Neacsu is set to get murkier as at least three more firms figure in details provided by Verma’s estranged US attorney , C Edmonds Allen to the CBI. The attorney, after their fallout, wrote to Indian authorities providing details about an escrow account in the US and money received in it from various companies for fixing deals.

CBI sources said they have been able to verify the evidence of a payment of $530,000 from Rheinmetall Air Defence (RAD), Zurich, to Verma’s company in the US.

CBI sources said that Verma was until Friday evasive in explaining about the money deposited by Rheinmetall in the account of Ganton Limited, a Verma company, according to Allen. Verma has denied the charges. In written comments to TOI, Verma had said in May, “Please ask C Edmonds Allen about … who is the president and owner of Ganton Group. I have nothing to do with Ganton India nor other group companies of Ganton.”

Sources said Verma reached the CBI headquarters in the morning, accompanied by Neacsu, and they were questioned for the entire day. Later in the evening, the agency placed both of them under arrest.

According to CBI sources, $530,000 was deposited by the Swiss company on February 17, 2011, in the US escrow account of Ganton. This was after the ministry of defence had initiated the process to blacklist six defence firms, including RAD, after CBI reported in 2010 about evidence of them bribing Sudipto Ghosh, an ex-chairman of ordnance factory board. The payment to Verma was to get RAD removed from the blacklisting .

In its case filed on Thursday , the CBI has named Verma , RAD and other unknown persons under section eight and 12 of the Prevention of Corruption Act. After registering the case, 10 CBI teams, who were later joined by the criminal investigation unit of Income Tax, swooped down at 10 locations in Delhi and Gurgaon which included four premises of Verma, offices of RAD in Vasant Vihar and Satya Niketan and farmhouse of its director Mohinder Singh Sahni in Kishangarh and three associates of Verma, they said. Sahni also figures in the ‘undesirable contact men’ list circulated by the CBI to senior government officials recently.

Police said the other foreigners aboard were a Dutchman, a Czech and a Swede.

-via The Times of India.
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Naval War Room case: CBI seeks US lawyer’s help
22 05 2012

The CBI has sought documents related to the escrow account of New York-based firm, an alleged front company of naval war room leak case accused Abhishek Verma, from a US-based attorney who had run this account for several years.

The agency has deputed DIG Praveer Ranjan to coordinate with lawyer C Edmond Allen and get details about the account which he used to operate on behalf of Verma.

CBI sources said the agency is trying to decipher the money trail involved in the defence deals in which Verma is said to have given kick-backs to army officials.

The agency sources said that Allen has been asked to submit details of nearly US dollars 83,000 deposited in the escrow account in the form of securities.

Naval War Room case: CBI seeks US lawyer`s help

An escrow account is a separate bank account for keeping money that is the property of others. Lawyers keep the escrow account to avoid mingling of client’s money with their own funds.

They said some portion of the amount, USD 20,000 was remitted to the company headed by Verma Atlas Telecom Services through a New York bank.

Allen, who was the lawyer of Verma, had provided information about the alleged corruption in defence deals to team Anna member Prashant Bhushan recently.

They said getting details of transaction routed through the escrow account will give the agency a clear picture of money trail in cases involving Verma which included the Naval War Room case.

Naval War Room case: CBI seeks US lawyer`s help

During the probe of the case, CBI has said that Verma was allegedly representing Atlas group in India.

It had claimed in its charge sheet that Verma had allegedly received over Rs six crore to grease the palms of defence officials to extract information about defence deals in the pipeline.

Sources said Verma had resigned from the group after the naval war room case was exposed in 2006.

Navy War room leak: Bail to 2 ex-Naval commanders
13 05 2012

Two former Navy Commanders, arrested for their alleged roles in the 2006 Naval war room leak case, were on Friday granted bail by the Delhi High Court on condition that they would not contact co-accused Commander Ravi Shankaran, holed up in London and facing extradition proceedings.

“I have allowed both the petitions (of former naval Commanders Kulbushan Parashar and Vijender Rana) for grant of bail,” Justice V K Shali said.

Imposing various conditions, the court said, “They (Rana and Parashar) shall not communicate directly or indirectly to Ravi Shankaran till a decision on his extradition is taken by the British court.”

One of the six accused, Shankaran, a relative of former Navy Chief Admiral Arun Prakash, who has been declared a proclaimed offender, is currently facing extradition proceedings in the United Kingdom in connection with the case.

The court also asked the two former Navy commanders to furnish a personal bond of Rs 2 lakh with two sureties of like amount each for their release on bail. The accused will have to surrender their passports, if not already seized by the CBI, to the trial court and will not leave Delhi without prior permission, Justice Shali said.

Navy War room leak: Bail to 2 ex-Naval commanders

“They shall attend the trial court proceedings on each date and shall not seek any adjournments,” the court said.

Rana and Parashar are in jail since their arrest in April 2006. Besides them, other accused in the case are sacked Naval Commander V K Jha, former IAF Wing Commander S L Surve, businessman Abhishek Verma and Ravi Shankaran.

The 2006 Navy War Room leak case involves leaking of over 7000 pages of defence information of sensitive nature from the Naval war room and air defence headquarters, having a direct bearing on national security.

The various accused in the case have been charge-sheeted by the CBI for allegedly conspiring to commit offences under the Officials Secret Act.

The CBI earlier had opposed the bail pleas of Rana and Prasahar saying they cannot claim parity with other co-accused, who are out on bail. “The accused cannot claim parity with those enlarged on bail as there was a distinction between the accused who had access to the secret information and those who passed them on,” the CBI had said.

Navy War room leak: Bail to 2 ex-Naval commanders

The CBI had filed the first charge sheet on July 3, 2006 against Shankaran and four ex-defence officials in the case.

In its second charge sheet, the agency had indicted city businessman Abhishek Verma for allegedly conspiring to obtain the defence documents.

Verma was handling Indian affairs of Altas group of industries and had received remittances to the tune of Rs 6.5 crore, ostensibly for paying bribes to defence personnel for obtaining information of various purchases to be made by the military, the charge sheet said.

The Atlas group of companies had submitted bids to supply communication equipment required by the armed forces but none of the contracts had been finalised so far, the CBI had said.

The CBI had registered the case on March 20, 2006 on a reference from Defence Ministry and after scrutiny of report on inquiry held by Indian Air Force against Surve and the Board of Inquiry conducted by Indian Navy.

Parashar was arrested at the airport here on April five, 2006 on his return from London following which nationwide searches were carried out at 20 premises of the six accused.

-via Zee News.
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mody · Post by **mody** » 28 Mar 2013 16:46

All this talk about the P-75I is total nonsense. The project has been hanging fire since almost a decade. It was during the NDA regime that a plan to build 24 subs was first floated.
All this business about technology transfer is not worth the paper it is written on.

If the Indian Navy cannot design and build a diesel electric submarine, after having built 2 Shishukumar class subs under "Technology Transfer", after having built the Arihant submarine and after spending nearly 24K crores on the scorpene project and building the subs from scratch, then no amount of additional "technology transfer" is ever going to help.

Having built the Arihant and the scorpenes, we definitely have the technology to build the hulls of the subs. Also the noise reduction techniques for all the internal equipment. What we would not have would be the combat management systems and the perhaps the engine and transmission parts. The combat management systems also should be within our reach, if we have done the same for Arihant and not just take existing Russian systems and plugged them in.

At the very least, it should be within our technological capability to build subs exactly similar to the Scorpene, capable of handling the Klub missiles, instead of the Exocet and capable of using our own Varunastra HWTs, instead of WASS or any other western torpedo that we may choose for the scorpene. The changes required to integrate these systems should be within our technological capability. Also substitute some of the French systems that we have simply plugged in like black boxes.

Seems to me that this is again a case like OFB sitting on Bofors design for years, while we try to import artillery from just about every source in the world.
At some point, we have to bite the bullet and give local manufacturing a go. Maybe the first two subs thus designed and built, will end up having many teething problems and maybe will require rework every now and them. But once made, will give us enough know how and confidence to build best in class vessels for the future.

Also the production of Arihant class SSMN should be speeded up. An enlarged SSBN deign of about 8,000 to 9,000 tons with larger power plant should also be made. That would be the true desi SSBN. Capable of carrying 12 K4 class missiles in VLS tubes, along with 6-8 21" torpedo tubes. The subs would carry 8-12 Nirbhay LACM and 16-18 Varunastra HWT apart from the K4.

The current Arihant can carry 12 Brahmos in VLS tubes, plus 12-16 Nirbhay LACM, plus 16-18 HWT and mines. An excellent load for a sub of its size.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2013 17:33

inshallah a design with 8xK4 sized tubes will be enough for both a pure K4 n-deterrence role and swing roles and mix and matches like 3xK4 and rest K15 or 4xK4 and 12 nirbhays or even 24 nirbhays if its time to pound some pirate base in somalia.

a slight upsizing of the arihant will achieve this and keep the tonnage well below 10,000t methinks.

and the torpedo room will still carry some 30 weapons whatever we want.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 28 Mar 2013 18:15

SNaik wrote:
Singha wrote:I am sure fincantieri built the cavour the same way, is the ADS-1 also following the same route?

as for our other ships, I believe only the P17 was made that way.
Talwars were also built in sections.

Google Maps has a nice photo of ADS-1 in the process of movement into the drydock.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=9.955758 ... 4&t=h&z=17

wow! I can sea Viraat being repaired, while ADS is being toed next to it. First I thought ADS looked a lot more complete than I thought it looked in previous pictures but than next to Viraat it doesn't look any bigger at this point, so its got ways to go.

Several other major IN ships docked there next to each other.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Mar 2013 18:45

Yes,a long way to go.At least 5 years by the look of it before launching and another year of sea trials,which means commissioning around 2020.The Viraat will have to soldier on until then along with the Gorky/Vik. Spain is pensioning off the Principe de Asturias,due to budget cuts,as the Juan Carlos is much larger and is a multi-role vessel.Worth taking a dekko at the ship if it is for sale and available for a song.It is just 30 yrs old (Viraat 50).The British light carriers too are probably available.These light carriers could be converted to the amphibious/ASW role.Regrettably,we were not visionary enough as our depleting force of Harriers could've well done with a dozen or more from the retiring RN stock.The USMC swiftly bought the entire lot of about 70+ early retired RN Harriers for a song,augmenting its stock of around 300 hundred Harriers for its amphibious ships.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 28 Mar 2013 18:51

Katare wrote:wow! I can sea Viraat being repaired, while ADS is being toed next to it. First I thought ADS looked a lot more complete than I thought it looked in previous pictures but than next to Viraat it doesn't look any bigger at this point, so its got ways to go.

Several other major IN ships docked there next to each other.

ADS was also moored with the less completed portside to the moor, adding to the impression of being more advanced.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2013 18:54

none of the older US LPHD/ or any euro financial crisis ship like juan carlos etc would be able to operate the Mig29K.
we are no longer in the harrier game as the Mig29K is a good step up.

only the QE2 ships - UK is holding on to its sole ship and french has yet to start on the equivalent PA2 ship yet iirc.

not sure how far along the 2nd QE2 ship construction is ...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Mar 2013 19:26

IIRC, the ADS was hed up due to propulsion related issues. But being a ship which utilized modular construction methods, shouldn't the various modules which will form the ship, have been built ( kept on getting on built) and have been ready for installation on the ship. If yes, then the ship could be completed relatively quickly.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Mar 2013 19:35

can you put the propulsion after the ship has been built ???

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Mar 2013 20:16

I was thinking of having the modules produced and ready to be installed after the propulsion issues have been solved. The Modules could be kept on land, ready to be installed. So a minimum time would be lost.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 28 Mar 2013 21:34

Singha wrote:not sure how far along the 2nd QE2 ship construction is ...

Quite advanced, I'd say.

http://www.aircraftcarrieralliance.co.u ... g-2013.pdf?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 28 Mar 2013 22:20

IAC being towed to dock dated 11/02/13 on google earth.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Mar 2013 08:21

lot of work is left....it hardly looks fitted out. the entire stern sections housing the powerplant / hvac etc looks empty down to the lowest deck level.

vic · Post by **vic** » 29 Mar 2013 08:43

+1

mody wrote:All this talk about the P-75I is total nonsense. The project has been hanging fire since almost a decade. It was during the NDA regime that a plan to build 24 subs was first floated.
All this business about technology transfer is not worth the paper it is written on.

If the Indian Navy cannot design and build a diesel electric submarine, after having built 2 Shishukumar class subs under "Technology Transfer", after having built the Arihant submarine and after spending nearly 24K crores on the scorpene project and building the subs from scratch, then no amount of additional "technology transfer" is ever going to help.

Having built the Arihant and the scorpenes, we definitely have the technology to build the hulls of the subs. Also the noise reduction techniques for all the internal equipment. What we would not have would be the combat management systems and the perhaps the engine and transmission parts. The combat management systems also should be within our reach, if we have done the same for Arihant and not just take existing Russian systems and plugged them in.

At the very least, it should be within our technological capability to build subs exactly similar to the Scorpene, capable of handling the Klub missiles, instead of the Exocet and capable of using our own Varunastra HWTs, instead of WASS or any other western torpedo that we may choose for the scorpene. The changes required to integrate these systems should be within our technological capability. Also substitute some of the French systems that we have simply plugged in like black boxes.

Seems to me that this is again a case like OFB sitting on Bofors design for years, while we try to import artillery from just about every source in the world.
At some point, we have to bite the bullet and give local manufacturing a go. Maybe the first two subs thus designed and built, will end up having many teething problems and maybe will require rework every now and them. But once made, will give us enough know how and confidence to build best in class vessels for the future.

Also the production of Arihant class SSMN should be speeded up. An enlarged SSBN deign of about 8,000 to 9,000 tons with larger power plant should also be made. That would be the true desi SSBN. Capable of carrying 12 K4 class missiles in VLS tubes, along with 6-8 21" torpedo tubes. The subs would carry 8-12 Nirbhay LACM and 16-18 Varunastra HWT apart from the K4.

The current Arihant can carry 12 Brahmos in VLS tubes, plus 12-16 Nirbhay LACM, plus 16-18 HWT and mines. An excellent load for a sub of its size.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 29 Mar 2013 10:02

Yup, even the structure isn't complete yet. Just the hull is finished. Deck, wiring, paint, propulsion, armament etc. still need to be fitted in.
BTW, where is Virat ? Couldn't find it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Mar 2013 10:04

the hull is not finished. in the stern section the freeboard must be currently hardly 10ft above the waterline. a lot of hull has to be built up there methinks

that part seems to be 4 deck levels below where the flight deck is in the front part. even the rear part of the hanger will come above it.

this ship is atleast a decade away from IOC at this rate.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 29 Mar 2013 10:14

where is Virat ? Couldn't find it

About a ship length away from IAC at 1 o'clock inside the dry dock.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Mar 2013 10:37

Pratyush wrote:IIRC, the ADS was hed up due to propulsion related issues. But being a ship which utilized modular construction methods, shouldn't the various modules which will form the ship, have been built ( kept on getting on built) and have been ready for installation on the ship. If yes, then the ship could be completed relatively quickly.

Here's a video report on ADS from a whole ago. There are over 800 modular parts. Some of them you can see in the video.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 31 Mar 2013 14:45

Where will P15A, P17A and P15Bs be distributed under which commands?

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 02 Apr 2013 02:13

DAC to discuss Navy's Rs 25,000 crore warship proposal

NEW DELHI: A Rs 25,000 crore proposal of the Navy for procuring four large amphibious warfare vessels is expected to be considered by the Defence Ministry here tomorrow.

A meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by Defence Minister A K Antony is also expected to approve amendments in the procurement procedure to give a bigger role to the indigenous industry for supplying military hardware to the armed forces.

"We are looking to add four more Landing Platform Decks (LPDs) in our fleet to operate alongside INS Jalashwa, the only LPD currently in service. The proposal is expected to come up for discussion at the DAC meeting tomorrow," a Navy official told PTI here.

The procurement procedure has already begun with the release of the Request for Information (RFI) by the defence ministry, they said.

The four warships would be procured under the 'Buy and Make (Indian)' category of the defence procurement procedure under which the Indian shipyards, both private and public, would be required to form a partnership with foreign shipyards for the contract.

The Navy would use the warships to transport Main Battle Tanks (MBTs), heavy trucks, armoured personnel vehicles and other heavy machinery along with big troop contingents.

Under the DPP amendments, the Ministry will further ease the 'Buy and Make (Indian)' category under which Indian firms are asked to have tie ups with foreign vendors to produce weapon systems indigenously.

As part of this, the firms would be asked to "achieve" 50 per cent of the cost of the system produced by it in joint venture.

The Ministry is planning to give the 'right of first refusal' to the domestic industry before the armed forces are allowed to look at the import option for procuring weapon systems. Double-edged sword?

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 02 Apr 2013 02:36

Even In modular construction, There are levels to it, namely Just the steel boxes welded together,
To the whole shebang including, piping, wiring, etc.
AS far as fitting the propulsive modules after the hull form is made watertight.
Not an issue just will cost time and money, but with gas turbines, which are small compared to a diesel engine, It will not be a huge issue, The gear box will be much larger and heavier and that will entail a lot more work getting into a completed hull

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 02 Apr 2013 03:16

Can't L&T or Bharati build these LPD's? Rip-off the Jalashwa design if required.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2013 07:18

the budget indicates it might not be a large sized LPD like mistral or juan carlos class. it will involve some infra expenses here also.

hopefully we get something like the Dokdo or Hyuga class out of this. a few smaller rotterdam class ships in the mix would be ideal.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Apr 2013 11:54

One thing that I just don't understand. Why is India paying 1st world prices for warships, when they are being built at home. Are we a developed western nation with super expensive labor costs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2013 12:06

perhaps the labour cost is a small fraction of program cost.
- engines, weapons, control system , sensors
- steels & aluminium
- wires, pipes, pumps
- interior fittings , hotel eqpt
- paints, coatings, treatments
- dockside eqpt for welding, metal work, painting etc.
- ship design house staff cost
all the above must be top quality

none of these are any cheaper in india than america. plus the cost of establishing new infra here since we dont have ship lines that run decades like the DDG51 or CVN lines in US. our setup costs are spread across far fewer numbers.

eg. LM2500 turbine and renk gearbox would be imported by elecon of pune as SKD and assembled and fitted locally. I doubt any parts are india made, so all spares are imported too and fitted by local engineers. there is no cost advantage and infact higher support costs here. even if such engines and gear are made here, I doubt they will be cheaper than abroad.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Apr 2013 13:14

cheap labour is easily offset by productivity. increasingly US and Japanese companies are bringing work back home because unit costs are lower back home now with rise in labour costs overseas AND improved productivity in home factories

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Apr 2013 14:25

I believe hyundai shipyard turns out 300 merchant vessels a year using highly automated machinery which can handle 200t steel sheets like pieces of paper and make precise laser guided welds.
same would be at other leading shipyards, even in cheen who has emerged as a huge shipbuilding power now.

think of the scale of ops here:
http://www.ship-technology.com/projects ... san-korea/

Workshops and facilities within the shipyard are put up in such a way that the maximum efficiency of shipyard operations can be maintained. Out of the total area of 1,780 acres of the shipyard, the workshops cover approximately 395 acres.
"Ulsan shipyard also builds naval ships and special-purpose vessels for the Republic of Korean Navy."

Ulsan shipyard has nine large-scale dry docks with six Goliath cranes. This allows HHI to manufacture any type of ship of any size.

Dry Dock 1, which measures 390m x 80m and is equipped with two Goliath cranes, is used for constructing LNG carriers. Dry Dock 2 is 12.7m deep and measures 500m in length and 80m in breadth. It is equipped with two jib cranes.
Dry Dock 3, measuring 672m in length and 92m in breadth, is the largest dock of the Ulsan shipyard. It is capable of undertaking simultaneous construction of a variety of ships and is provided with two Goliath cranes. Vessels of up to one million DWT in capacity can be constructed on this site.
Dry docks 4 and 5 are comparatively smaller in size and can be used to construct ships of up to 150,000 DWT and 70,000 DWT respectively.
Dry docks 6 and 7 are specially equipped for the construction of naval ships and special-purpose vessels.
Dry docks 8 and 9 were completed in 1996 and are currently allocated for building VLCCs.

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our yards a cottage industry in comparison. they could build 6 X ADS in parallel in the above

with room for another half dozen DDG also.

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Apr 2013 16:11

our yards a cottage industry in comparison. they could build 6 X ADS in parallel in the above with room for another half dozen DDG also.

Yes and no. The Hyundai yard you talked about is a purely commercial yard , that builds large ships from "families", which basically are a base design of a type (say tanker) and largely standardized and you vary the parallel middle body of the ship by adding or taking out a section per the user's needs and hence can turn out ships like cars.. kaching, kaching kaching .. (they prefer orders of say 4 to 5 ships of a class).

Warships on the other hand are unique. Even within a class of ships (say Nimitz class), each one is slightly different and hence are unique in some respects and lack of standardization means you don't roll them out like cars.

Even in S. Korea, the defense yards are separate and specialized and don't turn out ships in the exact same speed.

But that said, that is no excuse for our yards to do even the pitiable job that they do, using that as an excuse.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Apr 2013 18:03

AbhiJ wrote:Where will P15A, P17A and P15Bs be distributed under which commands?

Bulk of it would go to Eastern Command!!! of late every major / capital ship has been inducted into the Eastern Command... wonder what ships are in Southern Command? we will also be seeing a gradual uptick in the #/tonnage of ships in the A&N command.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 03 Apr 2013 20:02

Shrinivasan wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:Where will P15A, P17A and P15Bs be distributed under which commands?
Bulk of it would go to Eastern Command!!! of late every major / capital ship has been inducted into the Eastern Command... wonder what ships are in Southern Command? we will also be seeing a gradual uptick in the #/tonnage of ships in the A&N command.

Heard that Talwar Class and P15Bs would be for Bakis.

Rest all on the East Coast.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Apr 2013 21:20

Basing in karwar in no way precludes their use in the east if needed.

Bakis need a few p25 and kicks up their sorry backsides.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 03 Apr 2013 21:47

A&N command needs to be upgraded to a small fleet. A few frigates and P-28A corvettes maybe.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Apr 2013 23:38

Shrinivasan wrote:
AbhiJ wrote:Where will P15A, P17A and P15Bs be distributed under which commands?
Bulk of it would go to Eastern Command!!! of late every major / capital ship has been inducted into the Eastern Command... wonder what ships are in Southern Command? we will also be seeing a gradual uptick in the #/tonnage of ships in the A&N command.

southern command is training only. IN has 2 major fleets, western and eastern (used to be called 'red fleet' in cold war times because of its primarily soviet origin ships, while the western origin and derived ships went to the western fleet).

the fleet @ A&N comes under the joint command and mostly has patrol boats and amphibs as of now, in addition to some naval air presence.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Apr 2013 08:46

India makes headway with ELF site construction (Janes)
By James Hardy
3/4/2013

Imagery taken by DigitalGlobe in January 2013 provides an update on the construction of India's new Extremely Low-Frequency (ELF) facility in the south of the country.

The construction began in March 2012, when Admiral Nirmal Verma, chief of the naval staff of the Indian Navy (IN), laid the cornerstone for the ELF facility near the village of Vijaya Narayanam, about 23 km north of the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant in Tamil Nadu. It is co-located with the IN's Very Low-Frequency (VLF) communications station, which transmits at 18.2 kHz.

The ELF station, which is believed to be being built by Indian firm Larsen & Toubro, will have nuclear-hardened bunkers and is expected to be commissioned in 2015. Russia is closely associated with the research and development for the facility, which is expected to be similar to Russia's own ELF transmitter at the ZEVS facility near Murmansk.

ELF transmission is used to communicate very brief commands to submerged submarines. Such transmissions can travel thousands of miles and through extended depths of seawater. ELF transmissions are generally initiated during circumstances in which conventional communications channels have been disrupted or destroyed.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 04 Apr 2013 12:56

Rahul M wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Bulk of it would go to Eastern Command!!! of late every major / capital ship has been inducted into the Eastern Command... wonder what ships are in Southern Command? we will also be seeing a gradual uptick in the #/tonnage of ships in the A&N command.
southern command is training only. IN has 2 major fleets, western and eastern (used to be called 'red fleet' in cold war times because of its primarily soviet origin ships, while the western origin and derived ships went to the western fleet).the fleet @ A&N comes under the joint command and mostly has patrol boats and amphibs as of now, in addition to some naval air presence.

The Godfather of Western fleet was Louis Mountbatten, who was instrumental in the acquisition of INS Vikrant and establishment of Naval Aviation. The Godfather of Eastern Fleet was Sergei Gorshkov, who visited India multiple times. He was instrumental in acquisition of Petya light frigates, which were more powerful than Leanders, Sindhudurg class missile boats, whose SAM were better than Leanders, Rajput destroyers, that in early 80s were the most powerful warships in these waters bar USN at Diego Garcia and Type 877 EKM submarines, that I believe were the first export of these then state of the art submarines outside Warsaw Pact. He also strongly supported India to acquire the first Chakra, and prodded & pushed both Soviet and Indian bureaucracies. Admiral Gorshkov wanted Soviet ships segregated from Western origin ships, hence Eastern Fleet was of Soviet origin.

I hope we name one of our submarines Gorshkov in his honour. He was instrumental in India's nuclear navy.

Currently, longer ranged ships are based at ENC - 5 x Rajput, 3 x Delhi & 3 x Shivalik classes. For two reasons - 1. longer range of operations required at ENC 2. ENC to double as backup for WNC. Shorter ranged ships are based at WNC - 6 x Godavari and 6 x Talwar - because their range to area of operations is lesser. Kolkata & follow up classes will replace Rajput class, currently the oldest ships in IN. Hence a strong possibility they'll join ENC.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Apr 2013 14:08

in fact Adm Gorshkov had proposed the chakra to a visiting IN officer as "would you like to operate a nuke sub ?"

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Apr 2013 10:23

X-posted from the ATV thread.The alarming intrusion of PLAN nuclear subs into the IOR and off the Indian coastline,22 detections last yr.is a stunning development,long predicted by us on BR aeons ago and pooh-pooed by many "experts".What happens now is the important Q as our sub fleet is dwindling rapidly and the UPA-2/MOD under these St. AKA,now "Sinner" AKA,has been afflicted by paralysis except when it comes to deals where kickbacks have allegedly been paid!

HT reports that a confidential doc. from the IN to the MOD says that Chinese nuclear/conventional subs have been tracked 22 times during the last year,near the A&N islands,Malacca Straits,off the southern Lankan coast off Hambantota-many contcts, and two off the Kerala/Konkan coast,most probably snooping around Cochin andKarawr..Most contacts have been around 100km of Indian shores,but well within range of Chinese sub launched cruise missiles.
What is further disturbing is that on some occasions,the Chinese meant to be detected,as if to send an upturned finger to India!

As we've been warning for aeons on BR,that before they transit into the IOR through the Malacca Straits. the PLAN would intrude into the IOR,it is now happened,far sooner than many predicted.past time to accelerate an IN facility in Vietnam to counter the PLAN in the Indo-China Sea .The dereliction of duty by the UPA-2 in not pursuing the second line of subs and augmenting the dwindling fleet with new acquisitions of existing types,is simply scandalous,especially that the Scorpene acquisition is about 4-5 years behind schedule.With the PLAN negotiating 4+ Amur subs too,the situation is becoming critical for the In which numwericallly is simply outnumbered by the PLAN's sub fleet of about 60-80 (2020)subs,mostly new.

PS:Report on Russian planned offer to India of Amurs + BMos.

LIMA 2013: Russia boosts its submarine exports to Asia

Two Malaysian Air Force Lady officials take a look at the two submarines from France "La Praya" and Pakistan "Hurmat" at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace (LIMA '97) Exhibition 03 December in Malaysia's resort island Langkawi. Two Malaysian Air Force Lady officials take a look at the two submarines from France "La Praya" and Pakistan "Hurmat" at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace (LIMA '97) Exhibition 03 December in Malaysia's resort island Langkawi.
Photo: AFP

During the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace exhibition (LIMA 2013) taking place in Malaysia, Igor Vilnit, the CEO of the Russian developer of submarines Rubin, reported on the progress of a number of development projects aimed at exporting Russian submarines to Asian countries. Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, analyzes the situation.

This year Vietnam will receive the first of six Project 636 submarines it has ordered. At present, the first Vietnamese submarine, which was named “Hanoi”, is already undergoing testing. At the beginning of this year the Vietnamese team of the future vessel started its training in Russia. Simultaneously, Russian specialists are building in Vietnam the entire necessary infrastructure for using the submarines and training the submarine personnel.

One cannot exclude the possibility that the transfer to Vietnam of the Project 636 submarines will go more quickly than what was stated by Rubin’s CEO, - suggests expert Vasily Kashin. It is known for a fact that the second submarine of the Vietnamese order has already been launched, while the third one is expected to be launched in August. It is quite possible that this year Vietnam will get two submarines and another one in 2014. All six submarines have to be transferred to Vietnam by the end of 2016.

Thus, 2013 will be used to develop the Vietnamese fleet's submarine forces. Prior to this Vietnam tried to set up its submarine forces by purchasing two superlight submarines from North Korea, but it failed. North Korea's light submarines turned out to be too weak in their combat capabilities.

According to Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, the acquisition of the Project 636 submarines from Russia satisfies Vietnam’s need to defend its sovereignty at sea and in reality poses no threat to the interests of Russia's strategic partner China. The limited submarine forces would not give Vietnam any chance of winning the battle against the Chinese fleet, which supersedes it by several times, but would allow it to preserve the status-quo with its own resources. The lack of its own effective naval forces could push Vietnam towards a closer partnership with powers from outside the region, like it happened in the Philippines' case. Taking all this into account, the real conflict between Vietnam and China has a very low probability as China's policy towards Vietnam is based on the maximum engagement of the Vietnamese in trade and economic cooperation.

Another promising direction for the export of Russian submarines to Asia is India. The India’s navy is getting ready to announce a tender for the purchasing of 6 non-nuclear submarines. According to Rubin's CEO Igor Vilnit, Russia is planning to offer the Indians its submarines of the Amur-950 project. Amur-950 is a reduced version of the Amur-1650 submarines, the acquisition of which China is currently negotiating to purchase. Compared to Amur-1650 they have a lower displacement and a lower range, while their armament is just slightly inferior to that of the Amur-1650 submarines.

The specific qualities of the Amur-950 submarines include the vertical launch for 10 ballistic missiles, which if needed could be launched within 2 minutes.

The offer to the Indian Navy includes the vessels equipped with ultrasound ballistic missiles “Brahmos” jointly produced by Russia and India. Russia's participation in the Brahmos project is considered to give a serious advantage to the Russian proposal for this tender, in which the French submarine producers are participating as well. Obviously, these submarines of a low displacement are meant to be used in the Indian Ocean only.

At the same time, the negotiations with China are still underway to supply four larger Amur-1650 submarines, of which two are likely to be equipped with the new Russian engines which work without air supply. Due to the extended range of action, the Amur-1650 submarines can be used in the Pacific Ocean at far distances from the bases. Compared to the Project 636 submarines supplied to China earlier, Amur-1650 boats have lower level of perceptibility, which increases their chances of overcoming Japan's system of submarine defense.

The modern diesel-electric submarines are an effective and relatively inexpensive weapon, which gives the naval forces of Asia's developing countries a chance to stand up to the large fleets of the developed countries, believes Vasily Kashin, a Russian expert on defense issues. The experience of the Falklands war of 1982 and the subsequent naval military exercises of the NATO countries revealed that with proper management such boats can successfully overcome the anti-submarine defense of aircraft carrier combat groups.