Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[Pratyush]

I give up.........

[Misraji]

I give up.........

... Sorry, man .... Couldn't resist.
Anyway. I am so done with my share of posts.
Have a good day.

--Ashish

[Singha]

one of the points in the CSIS paper is that iran-iraqi tank forces in large nos would often engage at less than 1000m and blaze away with main cannon but score surprisingly few hits!! even basic gunnery from a static-to-static and static-to-moving seems to have been lacking.

[SaiK]

The T 90 will kick a$$. .

There is no operational data as such on your claims. The reason I keep asking both Arjun and Tincan teams to show an actual armor box of each type, and being blown away by the other. Let us keep some chickens inside these box. If the chicken survives in one, and in the other gets killed, then that is the best tank in the world. it should do both - survive, and kill the enemy.

[pentaiah]

No wonder Israelis were upset that the Iran Iraq war lasted only 8 years.
They with uncle lost good clients on both sides

Read up Iran contra affairs uncle selling Saddam Israelis selling Khomeini

But never taught them how to fire a T72 and the other Patton

RA RA RASPUTIN
Russia's greatest love machine
And so they shot him till he was dead

(Spoken:) Oh, those Russians...

Boney M song

Added later

Saik ji
One can be sold as chicken tandoor


We will never see any more tank battles like the shekarghar or asli uttar

Those days are over, we only see firing across yellow see and terror attacks here and there on regular basis.

[Sanku]

No wonder Israelis were upset that the Iran Iraq war lasted only 8 years.
They with uncle lost good clients on both sides

Read up Iran contra affairs uncle selling Saddam Israelis selling Khomeini

But never taught them how to fire a T72 and the other Patton

Pentaiah-jis humor has more content and meaning than the best effort of others post which end up being humorous.

Good one Sir.

[Sanku]

one of the points in the CSIS paper is that iran-iraqi tank forces in large nos would often engage at less than 1000m and blaze away with main cannon but score surprisingly few hits!! even basic gunnery from a static-to-static and static-to-moving seems to have been lacking.

They missed with even guided missiles at close range.

How do you manage that?

[member_22539]

^ Got any source for that ?

[Sanku]

^ Got any source for that ?

Why dont you guys read the information and the links provided !! People should stop making one line post devoid of content and facts and focus on learning.

[Pratyush]

There is no operational data as such on your claims. The reason I keep asking both Arjun and Tincan teams to show an actual armor box of each type, and being blown away by the other. Let us keep some chickens inside these box. If the chicken survives in one, and in the other gets killed, then that is the best tank in the world. it should do both - survive, and kill the enemy.

If such a test was ever conducted by the IA, the results would be classified.......... and kept away from us. But that is not the reason why I am opposed to the Tin can. I am opposed to the Tin can because the Arjun exists and is home made. It must be persisted with. Buying short term solutions is not doing us any good. In terms of of our R&D skills or in terms of our ability to develop new systems.

If Arjun is not good enough in its present form. Then the no tank in its current form is good enough for the IA. As they lack some thing or the other. Most notably the blow off armour panel in case of the T 90, which was one of the bottom line requirements communicated by the IA for the Arjun. That being the case there is no reason why the T 90 ought to be persisted with in place of the Arjun.

[member_22539]

Why dont you guys read the information and the links provided !! People should stop making one line post devoid of content and facts and focus on learning.

Oh certainly your exaltedness, I would be happy to, provided you can give me a source blaming BDL for the defective Invar missile and not the Russians for supplying defective missile kits.

[Sanku]

Why dont you guys read the information and the links provided !! People should stop making one line post devoid of content and facts and focus on learning.

Oh certainly your exaltedness, I would be happy to, provided you can give me a source blaming BDL for the defective Invar missile and not the Russians for supplying defective missile kits.

So basically you dont know, dont want to learn, will still maintain a opinion which belongs in dustbin and it is all some one else's fault?

[member_22539]

^ You do EVERYTHING but give me a source for your obvious lie. I will not let you divert my attention. You will have to provide the source for your assertions.

[Sanku]

^ You do EVERYTHING but give me a source for your obvious lie. I will not let you divert my attention. You will have to provide the source for your assertions.

Unbelievable.

[member_22539]

^It is indeed unbelievable that you can't fulfill a simple request on my part for a source for your assertion.

[amit]

^It is indeed unbelievable that you can't fulfill a simple request on my part for a source for your assertion.

Arun ji,

Asking Sanku Maharaja to back up his assertions will only lead you to be called ignorant, liar etc. Not that it would matter much to you, but I very much worry about burst blood vessels.

Take this example of my interaction with the Maharaja of BRF:

Typically the world over including India, the equipment is created as a part of doctrine, taking into account real production capabilities and such like. You can read the basics of any tank development article, including Arjun.

Since, according to his assertion equipment – in this case Arjun – is created as part of doctrine, I asked him what exactly was the Army’s “doctrine” when it made the GSQR for Arjun first – and then what was the “doctrine” when it changed that requirement twice in the 30 years or so that it took to get Arjun to what it is today.

Of course he alleged I have an anti IA agenda. The pot calling the kettle black.

Sigh!

[amit]

Sanku,

You may pin up my point about Al Khalid on posterity or posterior, whichever suits your fancy. However, I'm not the first person on BRF to assert that Pakistan's persistence with that MBT has paid off and in many respects it is equal to the T90 that we have now.

As an example see this link.

Also the fact remains that Pakistan, which tries to beg, borrow and steal every piece of equipment so that it can have "parity" with India - for example Chinese Bandars - curiously doesn't seem to be too interested in foreign MBT.

Now there, since I've got that out of the way you can get back to regular programming spewing verbal diarrhea and calling folks liars and idiots because the do not want to partake on your gyaan.

[member_22539]

^+1

[Viv S]

Frankly I think the Arjun supporting crowd is just as responsible for this ludicrous debate as the other side.


What does T-90 vs Arjun have to do with anything? Or if we're simply out of things to talk about here's another tidbit - the M1A2 is better than the Arjun in every conceivable way save for its ground pressure and fuel consumption. Should we start including the M1A2 in the list of possible acquisitions for the Army now? The French didn't induct the LeClerc because it was better than the Leopard II. It was French and that was reason enough.


Similarly, the Arjun is an Indian tank with satisfactory performance, that alone is enough justification for it to be the sole tank in production. Any additional requirements the IA has, can be catered to without changing the platform including integrating a smoothbore cannon (can be retrofitted to the Mk1 and Mk2 - see Challenger 2 upgrade program) and a three man crew (no reason not to consider it for the Mk3).


As far as Sanku sahib is concerned, both the T-90 and Arjun are equally Indian, so following him down that rabbit-hole is pointless.

[amit]

I give up.........

... Sorry, man .... Couldn't resist.
Anyway. I am so done with my share of posts.
Have a good day.

--Ashish

Boss,

If we are going to go by post count size, you know whom we all have to bow down to.

Have vodka, it's good for body. After a couple you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between tincans and Arjuns, Leopards, Abhrams, Merkeva etc.

Saab Maya hai!**



** Maya is the Sanskrit name of Natasha!

[amit]

Similarly, the Arjun is an Indian tank with satisfactory performance, that alone is enough justification for it to be the sole tank in production.

Boss,

That's where the debate starts from everytime. However, now any discussion on this topic, which includes Sanku rapidly degenerates into a downhill tobogganing exercise. Maybe you're right it's a pointless exercise to discuss this subject and everybody should go quiet when Sanku Maharaja enters the fray.

As far as Sanku sahib is concerned, both the T-90 and Arjun are equally Indian, so following him down that rabbit-hole is pointless.

This is not exactly correct. This is his latest view on the subject, as far as I can gather:

If not for the Russian direct imports + kits, IA would still have 1970s tanks while everyone discussed this or that.

Link here

[anirban_aim]

^^^^^ Bhai Wah Wah!!!!

logged into BRF after eons.... and what did I see... Tin Cans Vs Arjuns!!!

Well some body was right, more the times change more they remain the same!

I remember good old days, when the Pro Arjun Brigade was led by very knowledgable and respectable RahulM and rohitvats. In fact Rohit had also done a detailed study about rivers and bridges if I am not wrong..... But that was much later

And guess who used to lead the Pro Tin Can Charge even in those days ??????

Well I don't see Rahul and Rohit around here, guess others have taken charge in the arjun camp or may be the leaders are just taking a break, but guess what?? The Leader of the Tin Can Brigade leads on!!!

Oh Man... this is all too great!!! What was it again, that they use to award for long service in the motherland? Order of Lenin was it??

What the heck, lets get a bloody Hero of the USSR medal only....

We'll all celebrate with Vodka!!!





P.S: I for once the illiterate ranting fool that I am, some how fully agree with this:

[quote="Viv S"]... <snip>......The French didn't induct the LeClerc because it was better than the Leopard II. It was French and that was reason enough.


Similarly, the Arjun is an Indian tank with satisfactory performance, that alone is enough justification for it to be the sole tank in production. Any additional requirements the IA has, can be catered to without changing the platform including integrating a smoothbore cannon .........<snip>.....[/quote]


Ok now let me quickly log off and run away, lest the T 90s come back to hunt me down.... Ciao next month may be next year even, I dont think we will move away from this soon. Isn't it? Bye...

[Pratyush]

All hail the tin can. Tin can forever. Designed by mother Russia.

Down with the Arjun, designed by a turd world country where hundreds of millions of people are without Pakistan. With millions more subjugated by cunning baniyas and brahimins.

[Sanku]

Frankly I think the Arjun supporting crowd is just as responsible for this ludicrous debate as the other side.

.

The Arjun supporting crowd on the forum are people like me. The loud mouths who ostensibly support Arjun are merely riding the wave to take pot shots at IA and Russia. There interests are remotely not in Arjun.

A few posters are here supporting Arjun because their only agenda in life is to follow yours truly on every thread and try and rake up trouble. Regular false hoods are the basic method. Refusal to read, paraphrasing posters words into some other and attacking unsaid words and so on.

Personal attack and foul language are the main instruments of this gang. Ignorance is POV and repeating the same points which are clearly exposed as being untrue are repeated.

They dont care about real issues with Arjun program or the sector, the intention is to jump up and down, call names, run down IA, call IA corrupt in every other post and so on. They are having a lot of fun since mods seem to have given up on the name calling crowd.

[Sanku]

Sanku,
However, I'm not the first person on BRF to
As an example see this link.

Amit quoting Somnath. You must miss him, if you were two independent people to begin with. (in spirit onlee I mean)

[Sanku]

^It is indeed unbelievable that you can't fulfill a simple request on my part for a source for your assertion.

What is unbelievable is that even when you falsehood were caught and exposed, you still have the audacity to turn around and ask for proof.

Here is proof of INVAR being made at BDL (MOD site) - 2006 report

http://mod.nic.in/reports/AR-eng-2012.pdf

7.114 Besides producing indigenously
developed Prithvi (Tactical battle field Surface
to Surface Missile ) & Akash (Surface to Air
Missile), both missile systems under the
IGMDP, BDL is engaged in the production
of Konkurs-M and Invar (3UBK-20) Anti Tank
Guided Missiles (ATGMs) in collaboration with
Russia, and Milan 2-T ATGM in collaboration
with MBDA, France.

Here is proof of BDL successfully making Invars -- BDL site
http://www.epicos.com/EPCompanyProfileW ... x?id=21663

Bharat Dynamics Ltd manufactures guided missiles and allied equipment specialized in second generation anti-tank guided missiles of medium range (2 km) and long range (4 km).

In additional, the company also offers products like:

KONKURS-M: It is designed to destroy moving and stationary armored targets with Explosives Reactive Armours at a range of 75 to 4000 meters.

Invar: Invar is weapon fired from the Gun barrel of T 90 Tank, which is intended to destroy stationary and moving targets with speeds up to 70Km/hr.

More discussion on BRF itself here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1273833

even if large orders were give the the production capacity is not even enough for training purposes.

1700 konkurs a year for 2000+ BMP II and similar amount of FLAME launcher versions (man portable and light vehicle mounted.)

assuming 50% gunners of BMP II fire one missile a year for practice the production + Missile fired in exercises and demos + fired in training of man portable version we are well short of training needs leav aside the war reserves.

Same is the case of Invar missiles,
In fact the consumption of Invar is more as T-90 regiments are in conversion where on an average each Gunner would end up firing 5-6 minimum. + the field firing needs + the exerciser and training needs.

The need for import is there as the targets for production of BDL are not even equal to training needs of IA.

Invars being ordered in large numbers
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ge-missile

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared these two pending proposals of the defence ministry on Thursday evening. As was first reported by TOI earlier, the MoD had fast-tracked the Army's project to acquire 10,000 3UBK-Invar missiles from Russia for Rs 1,386 crore, while defence PSU Bharat Dynamics Ltd will manufacture another 15,000 of these missiles fired from the 125mm gun barrel of the T-90S tanks at a cost of Rs 2,079 crore.

So what does that show
1) Invars are being made at BDL in large numbers since 2006
2) Invars are working successfully
3) More Invars are needed since BDL cant keep up with the requirement.


Now in 2006 we know that one batch of Invar's failed during assembly (perhaps first batch) -- we know that BDL was assembling -- we know that Russian made INVARS were working then -- we know that the problem was later corrected.

So while there is no official statement on what caused the failure, there was speculation that BDL had goofed up initially and later they managed to get their systems to work.

Which is what I said, here.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1433883

Now, I know I am wasting my time since -- all this is a rehash, so if you were genuinely interested in learning and making a informed statement, you would not be trolling.

You unfortunately post a comment INVAR does not work, with a 2006 statement by A K Antony saying "Invar works, one lot of knocked down kits did not work"

If you can not read the one link you yourself post, this is all too much data. Return to your one line troll posts.

[member_22539]

^^All that the above states is that the Russians got additional orders for more Invar kits, which seems like a panic buy after the CAG report warning about dwindling stocks. It does not specifically say anything about a problem being rectified or BDL being responsible for the defect (which is entirely your opinion). Considering how tincans that cannot work in the heat of the desert were ordered in the 1000s, it would not be surprising if these Invar missiles were ordered despite them not working. Natashas can be a very good motivation after all.

[amit]

Sanku,
However, I'm not the first person on BRF to
As an example see this link.

Amit quoting Somnath. You must miss him, if you were two independent people to begin with. (in spirit onlee I mean)

As usual you display your incredible comprehension skills.

Actually Somnath was supporting tin cans. There were others who made the comparison with Al Khalids.

And yes I do miss Somnath. He may have had contrarian views but he was always courteous and supported his thesis with data. He did not peddle bull*hit and give gallis to others who point out the crap.

[Picklu]

Sorry to be late to the party but this is what the wiki article itself say about the Battle of 73 Easting. So, what happened one hour before or 6 months before or 6 years before or immediately after big bang might be influential but still NOT PART OF THAT PARTICULAR BATTLE as per definition.

"The Battle of 73 Easting refers narrowly to the violent armored combat action that took place in the final hours of 2nd ACR’s covering force operation in the zone of Second Squadron and in the northern third of the Third Squadron zone."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting

This is the link provided at the very beginning of the discussion, still so much spin about what consists of that battle

[NRao]

And yes I do miss Somnath. He may have had contrarian views but he was always courteous and supported his thesis with data. He did not peddle bull*hit and give gallis to others who point out the crap.

Not trying to be sarcastic nor funny, but are there people on BR that do not provide data to support their views?

[Viv S]

The Arjun supporting crowd on the forum are people like me. The loud mouths who ostensibly support Arjun are merely riding the wave to take pot shots at IA and Russia. There interests are remotely not in Arjun.

The Arjun has been cleared for service and in production. I want to know how a supposed patriot justifies continuing T-90 production given that fact. Sincerely, no snideness intended.

[NRao]

The Arjun has been cleared for service and in production

But not ordered. With no hopes of further orders?

And now a Russian claiming that India will order 300 more TinCans.

[Anujan]

Being a grizzled veteran and all that, let me summarize this dhaaga from 2005 or so when people like jcage was around (where is he these days?)

Arjun is a totally useless design phase: this was when people pointed out that it was heavy had a drum in the back and was a totally useless design and concept. 3 years of arguing later, people understood what a GSQR was and are now beginning to understand army asked for a design like this inspired by western tank philosophy and experience with vijayanta.

Arjun is a okay design but the products are awful phase: this was when "torsion bar broke" Arjun couldn't fire straight and we can't cross the border with it was peddled. Was finally laid to rest when people after people vouched for it and comparative trials with tin can were canceled with the words "maruti vs BMW"

Arjun is not 400% pindigenous phase. Didn't last long, was pointed out we are gradually making subsystems or replacements ourselves. Was comparable to LCA/LCH and tin cans were 800% foreign anyway. Also russies squeezing our testimonials about main gun, armor and rounds proved to be too embarrassing to continue this.

Arjun does not have everything tin can has phase: was quickly killed with MK2 putting out rumors about missile firing ability. Also ordering thermal imagers for tin can was proving to be too embarrassing to continue this.

Well Arjun is okay design, okay prototype, indigenous content is okay but our manufacturing sucks phase. The current phase. This too shall pass.

My prediction: next phase would be "now that we have so many tin cans, why throw them away? We can build schools from the money we would waste on Arjun." This will last for 5 years. And after that we will have "After all pakis aren't so bad, we can be friends with them why do we need a tank? "

[Sanku]

The Arjun supporting crowd on the forum are people like me. The loud mouths who ostensibly support Arjun are merely riding the wave to take pot shots at IA and Russia. There interests are remotely not in Arjun.

The Arjun has been cleared for service and in production. I want to know how a supposed patriot justifies continuing T-90 production given that fact. Sincerely, no snideness intended.

Sigh, okay once more --

India needs a fleet of at least 3000 MBTs.

T 90s will make up for 1500

Arjun will make up for 1500

If they can be made.

[Sanku]

Well Arjun is okay design, okay prototype, indigenous content is okay but our manufacturing sucks phase. The current phase. This too shall pass.

We all hope so. That is my prediction too.

My prediction: next phase would be "now that we have so many tin cans, why throw them away? We can build schools from the money we would waste on Arjun." This will last for 5 years. And after that we will have "After all pakis aren't so bad, we can be friends with them why do we need a tank? "

No the next step would be somebody asking DRDO why the Engines are not ready and why the gear box is not ready and if they want to reduce the Arjun to 50 tons when in hells name will the move.

There are crucial missing pieces in Indian MBT story still -- the next step is to fix those.

[Sanku]

Sorry to be late to the party but this is what the wiki article itself say about the Battle of 73 Easting. So, what happened one hour before or 6 months before or 6 years before or immediately after big bang might be influential but still NOT PART OF THAT PARTICULAR BATTLE as per definition.

"The Battle of 73 Easting refers narrowly to the violent armored combat action that took place in the final hours of 2nd ACR’s covering force operation in the zone of Second Squadron and in the northern third of the Third Squadron zone."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting

This is the link provided at the very beginning of the discussion, still so much spin about what consists of that battle

Yes, except that Wiki's page has less than 1/5th of the matter describing the narrow incident and 4/5 of the page defining the context which did influence the matter.

There is a reason why anyone discussing the battle discuss that context. And funnily despite all the smart alec comedians, the 4/5 page of discussion did not include Big bang (unless you meant pre-battle pounding of Iraqi forces by Air)

[Sanku]

^^All that the above states is that the Russians got additional orders for more Invar kits,

No it does not state that at all.

[Picklu]

Sorry to be late to the party but this is what the wiki article itself say about the Battle of 73 Easting. So, what happened one hour before or 6 months before or 6 years before or immediately after big bang might be influential but still NOT PART OF THAT PARTICULAR BATTLE as per definition.

"The Battle of 73 Easting refers narrowly to the violent armored combat action that took place in the final hours of 2nd ACR’s covering force operation in the zone of Second Squadron and in the northern third of the Third Squadron zone."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting

This is the link provided at the very beginning of the discussion, still so much spin about what consists of that battle

Yes, except that Wiki's page has less than 1/5th of the matter describing the narrow incident and 4/5 of the page defining the context which did influence the matter.

There is a reason why anyone discussing the battle discuss that context. And funnily despite all the smart alec comedians, the 4/5 page of discussion did not include Big bang (unless you meant pre-battle pounding of Iraqi forces by Air)

Aha, so now it is "contxt" and not the actual "battle"

I have not one but three of your posts to claim otherwise

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1434131

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1434318

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1434337

Finally context of the battle is fine but that does not determine the outcome of it. Any discussion on WW1 will mention
Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria which is contextual and influential but not the reason for outcome of WW1.

Same here. The wiki article discusses the events leading to the battle. That does not imply those events ensured the outcome.

No one is denying the disadvantageous position of IRG on all accounts. But, the awesome capacity of the tincans to dhoti shiver and spontaneously blow up in the presence of difficulty should at least be included as one of the reasons for that outcome, no?

[NRao]

After all these discussions is India going to dump the 300 tin cans and buy the Arjuns, which she should?

[Sanku]

Aha, so now it is "contxt" and not the actual "battle"

I have not one but three of your posts to claim otherwise

No you do not. That is why you did not quote from from them, merely threw in the links.

Same here. The wiki article discusses the events leading to the battle. That does not imply those events ensured the outcome.

No the outcome was not effected let alone ensured by the events leading to the outcome, it was ensured by little green men from mars dancing in their underwear.

The events leading up to the battle are for boring things like strategy papers, in real life as captured by the passionately accurate US TV, the outcome are ensured by what the bosses of the TV program want it to be.

No one is denying the disadvantageous position of IRG on all accounts.

Yes they are -- you just did, while pretending otherwise.

But, the awesome capacity of the tincans to dhoti shiver and spontaneously blow up in the presence of difficulty should at least be included as one of the reasons for that outcome, no?

US should have sent 600 Pattons, and 1200 centurians.

To make a big deal about winning a war where you have tanks 20 years ahead in technology, after beating the enemy down with sustained air and artillery operation in which you have complete superiority takes a special kind of American mindset.

Others will twitter. Excuse me while I do that.