Indian Naval Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2013 11:01

well we are already beefing up our ASW situation with a clear line of more P8I purchase, P28 ships...the only thing hanging fire is the MRMP project and the replacement of the Sea Kings.

however it must be understood with a 3000km coastline we cannot guard and monitor every inch 24x7 and anyone is legitimately allowed to come to within 12km or so territorial water our coastline whether overtly or covertly.

infact I would be happy if the chinese visit us more, gives a good chance to track them back, and gather data on noise signatures cheaply.

offensively ofcourse the situation is precarious with the LRIP Scorpene chugging along like a snail and P75 existing in fiction only. we need a lot of subs to snoop around cheen.

member_24146 · Post by **member_24146** » 05 Apr 2013 11:38

Indian Navy's VLF and ELF (Under Construction) Facility, South Vijayanarayanam, Tamil Nadu.
Via Google Maps

Com Towers Marked with Green Circles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2013 11:40

I thought ELF needed antennas in the realm of tens of KM and was reserved for superpawas only?
how come they are now able to fit a ELF system within a few kms site?

added later - the zevs article has the explanation:

the transmitter consists of two swept-frequency generators of sinusoidal voltage and two parallel horizontal grounded antennas, each about 60 km long. The generators provide 200-300 A currents in the antennas, in the frequency range from 20 Hz to 250 Hz
But there is one correction to be made; the two parallel 60 km long antennas is not the antenna at all, but the feedline. The actual antenna is the earth itself. By building the antenna at a location with a poor effective conductivity of the ground, and by grounding the ends of the feedline / antenna, the signal is forced deep down into the earth, making the earth itself the effective radiating element.
The actual look of the visible part, the feedline, of this giant antenna, is much like the old telegraph wires hung up on telegraph poles. Down from the last pole at the end of each antenna leg, there is a thick copper wire down to the ground and installed deep in a borehole, making up for the earth connection.

member_24146 · Post by **member_24146** » 05 Apr 2013 11:46

Singha wrote:... how come they are now able to fit a ELF system within a few kms site?

Does that means posted pictures is of VLF facility's only?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 05 Apr 2013 13:51

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/chin ... 60806.html

Exclusive: China's 'String of Pearls' is closer than you think, red intrusion in Indian waters sends jitters

For the first time, the Indian Navy has strong indications that a fleet of Chinese nuclear submarines is making frequent forays into the Indian Ocean.

22 such Chinese operations have been recorded, one as recently as February, 2013. One submarine was spotted near the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

Headlines Today has exclusive access to a report from the Indian Navy to the Defence Ministry that says 22 unknown submarine contacts were detected by Indian and U.S sonar in the Indian Ocean.

The assessment is that China is the only other navy capable of operating in the area. The assessment has been confirmed by U.S. and Indian intelligence inputs.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 05 Apr 2013 14:35

There was many a discussion of Chinese nuclear subs not being able to carry out blue water patrols and stayed closer to the coast. If this new report is true then they have indeed gone out for deterrent patrols and have matured in the nuke sub tech.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Apr 2013 14:37

All the more reason IN needs more SSN to drive the Chinese out from its areas of interest.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2013 19:03

only their SSBNs stay in the green water. their SSNs have never had any such restrictions.....while the Han SSN may have been a dog, the Shang SSNs are far deadlier creatures.

but I wonder how we detected them....there was a report here that SOSUS type necklaces are being planned in vital areas.

we do need a fleet of SSNs to tail them as they come out home bases and snoop around, play games with them. SSKs simply cannot follow a SSN if it goes overt and starts sprinting in the open water at 25 knots+...only a speedier SSN or helicopter can catchup in a extended tail chase.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 05 Apr 2013 19:16

22 such Chinese operations have been recorded, one as recently as February, 2013. One submarine was spotted near the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

I suspect this has been going on for even longer than suspected. Probably a top reason why sale of P-8 poseidon was fast tracked in November 2009 and the reason why initial order was probably increased.

titash · Post by **titash** » 05 Apr 2013 20:05

PLAN nuclear subs have the range and endurance to operate in the IN. And why wouldn't they? Having SSNs lurk in the BoB is a very cheap way of giving us the jitters. Their SSKs don't matter unless they're based in Burma/Sri Lanka since they do not have the range or endurance to undertake any significant missions in our backyard even with AIP

We need a balanced mix of forces, and increasing our SSN/SSK numbers is not the answer. The cheapest and most effective response for us (given our location) is flexible ASW assets...P-8I + Heavy ASW copters. With 20-30 networked aircraft and ships monitoring surfaced ships, missile launches, etc, the SSN may get off the first shot but will find it very hard to strike again

Thanks,

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 05 Apr 2013 21:50

How was IN able to detect them so easily? The shang may have range but is still noisy. Does India have a SOSUS type network?

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 05 Apr 2013 23:11

X-posting

New special grade steel make from SAIL plant
Alloy Steels Plant (ASP) of SAIL said on Thursday that it produced for the first time in the country a special grade steel (DMR-292A), meant for use in submarines, for the Indian Navy.
Last year, it supplied another special (DMR-249B) grade steel, equivalent to Russian AB2 grade steel that went into manufacturing of India’s first indigenously-built aircraft carrier.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Apr 2013 02:03

...and the commanders of the PLAN subs that intruded into our waters have reportedly been awarded the medal of "The missing testes of Zhong He",otherwise known as "the great eunuch" who bought the Chinese fishing nets to Cochin.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Apr 2013 03:18

Bheeshma wrote:How was IN able to detect them so easily? The shang may have range but is still noisy. Does India have a SOSUS type network?

The India Today article mentions Chinese subs being detected by Indian and US sonars and talks of Indian and US intelligence inputs. There might be some information sharing going on between the Indian and US navies regarding this.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 06 Apr 2013 03:45

What IN needs is the ability to track right from SCS. Vietnam is very important in that equation.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Apr 2013 10:00

Seems like Chinese are penetrating our own backyard in SriLanka with a wink from Lankan govt build facility that can be of strategic importance in the way of aid.

We need to keep an eye on our own backyard and make sure Chinese do not buy out our neighbours.

The Great Game

http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 105534.jpg
http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 105541.jpg

srin · Post by **srin** » 06 Apr 2013 13:01

Also need a larger line of Kamortas, hopefully that would make them cheaper too.

With P-8Is, and medium-range MPA and P-28s, we should be pretty good.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Apr 2013 22:58

One must understand that aircraft and ASW helos cannot be on patrol 24X7.Even NATO forces with their chokepoints guarded by an array of anti-sub assets including UW sensors,could not fully stop Soviet subs from avoiding detection as they passed through the GIUK gap.Moreover,deep diving subs can stay undetected due to thermal gradients and other innate knowledge of the UW terrain.This is why subs are the best way to detect enemy subs and track them.When combined with ASW aircraft and helos,the capability increases,but one must remember that commns. with subs is a difficult area,why so much R&D is being undertaken.Apart from VLF and ELF (slow),the US has taken the elad in usingblue-green lasers for commns. with subs.Unmanned UW vehicles are being touted as a new tactic to detect subs as their endurance and small size makes them harder to detect.Here is a report.

http://www.janes.com/products/janes/def ... 1065977805

188 of 939 words

ACTUV modular scalable sonar could advance submarine tracking

By Geoff Fein
4/5/2013
Raytheon has leveraged its investments in undersea warfare to develop the modular scalable sonar system, which has been chosen for SAIC's Anti-Submarine Warfare Continuous Trail Unmanned Vessel (ACTUV).

ACTUV is a US Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) effort to track diesel submarines. As the goal is to develop a platform that requires no operator, DARPA is hopeful the system will be able to track submarines for months at a time.

Raytheon announced its selection to the ACTUV team on 27 March. "Raytheon, SAIC, and DARPA are bringing their collective expertise to bring the capability of ACTUV to a reality and hopefully get that transitioned into a naval programme," Ed Hoak, programme manager for sonars at Raytheon Integrated Defense Systems, told IHS Jane's .

"We have a very long legacy of underwater acoustics here at Raytheon. If you think of the domain as having gone from air to floor-mounted sonars, we have products in all [those] domains. We have surface products: the modular scalable sonar system, SQQ-90; we have land-based surveillance sensors and we have a lot of play in mine warfare with the AQS-20 and AQS-235," he added.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Apr 2013 09:26

something low hanging in the water, like a crocodile, unmanned and high endurance could be sent out to lurk around potential sub transit areas . it could have a lot of passive sensors including a trailing sonar and enough onboard intel to know when to move out of the way of approaching ships or sit quiet if a sub is passing. it could even have a weapons bay underwater for releasing torpedoes and sonobuoys and eventually act as a mothership for a couple of smaller UUV mounting active sonar that could act as cheaper 'drum beaters' to show location of target to quiet mothership shooter.

so we could sent a bunch of these to sit south of indonesia where the channels connect IOR to pacific and classsify all submerged contacts...sending news of cheen contacts via satellite to mainland for processing.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Apr 2013 16:16

Singha,you're spot on.You may have seen some posts about UUCAVs being developed by the US for the same purpose.Long endurance,stealthy,an some which are "suicide" vehicles that attack an indentified intruder.

Some news about Iran's new 500t sub.If Iran can do it,why can't we?

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9107157984

Iran to Display First Home-Made Semi-Heavy Submarine in Months

TEHRAN (FNA)- Iranian defense officials announced on Saturday that the country would display its first 500-ton submarine in the next few months.

Deputy Defense Minister for Industrial and Research Affairs Mohammad Eslami said the designing and construction of Iran's new indigenous submarine is in its final phases and the new submarine will be launched by August 22, marking the National Day of the Defense Industry.

"All related works of this new submarine from designing to production of basic materials and equipments have been accomplished by local experts and proportionate to our conditions and needs," Eslami stated.

He added that the subsurface vessel with a weight of 500 tons will be Iran's first semi-heavy submarine and is a final ring in the china of the country's defense needs, given the other submarines, including Qadir-class light submarines and Tareq-class heavy submarines, that Iran already has.

In September 2012, the Iranian Navy officially launched a heavy submarine after the subsurface vessel was overhauled by the country's experts.

Tareq 901 submarine was launched in Iran's Southern port city of Bandar Abbas at the order of Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution and Commander in Chief Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei.

In May 2012, Iranian Navy Commander Rear Admiral Habibollah Sayyari lauded Iranian experts' success in repairing heavy submarines, saying their outstanding capabilities and mastery of the hi-tech used in naval vessels display the failure of enemy sanctions and pressures.

He said the submarine, called Tareq, is now fully ready to be dispatched to the high seas.

He pointed to the Supreme Leader's recent alarming remarks that enemies are trying to display Iranians as an incapable nation, and said, "Today we show that 'We Can', and that our ability is way beyond the enemy's imaginations."

In 2011, the Iranian Navy's Tareq-class submarine, 'Younus', managed to set a new record in sailing the international waters and high seas for 68 days.

Iran's Younus submarine, sailing alongside warships of the 14th fleet of the Iranian Navy, returned home in early June 2011 following an over two-month-long mission in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden.

The deployment of the Iranian submarine in the Red Sea was the first such operation by the country's Navy in far-off waters.

PS:SRi Lnka inaugurated a very nice small international airport at Hambantota,built by...who else,after India hummed and hawed.....the Chinese! Interestingly,the first flights from the airport are to Beijing and Shanghai and a few other destinations like Bodh Gaya. But the big news is that this airport is geared up to service A-380s-unlike our myopic Indian aviation ministry,and the runway thus can operate heavy lifters like IL-76s/476s,and the Chinese equivalent,etc.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Apr 2013 22:56

Austin wrote:Seems like Chinese are penetrating our own backyard in SriLanka with a wink from Lankan govt build facility that can be of strategic importance in the way of aid.

We need to keep an eye on our own backyard and make sure Chinese do not buy out our neighbours.

The Great Game

http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 105534.jpg
http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 105541.jpg

Check the comments.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2013 07:39

Cheen strategy seems first establish a economic and tourism footprint. do a lot of lucrative JV between local political and economic czars and chinese ventures in areas like hotels etc that makes the local elites cash rich and happy. give cheap or free arms on a lavish scale to the local generals.
now using this gravy train , gradually change the attitude of the local elite into a pro-Cheen stance politically and anti-others.

its not always guaranteed to succeed , but will work with smaller countries without other patrons. it failed in myanmar though after succeeding for a while.

maldives and sri lanka are the new labs.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 09 Apr 2013 10:20

Acharya wrote:
Austin wrote:Seems like Chinese are penetrating our own backyard in SriLanka with a wink from Lankan govt build facility that can be of strategic importance in the way of aid.

We need to keep an eye on our own backyard and make sure Chinese do not buy out our neighbours.

The Great Game

http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 105534.jpg
http://media2.intoday.in/indiatoday/ima ... 105541.jpg
Check the comments.

Having ceded first mover advantage on projects like Hambantota, and then committed hara kiri with our "principled" stand on SL's human rights record, we will have to wait for a suitable opportunity to get back into that game.

What is not lost as an opportunity is the ability to do a full scale riposte using Vietnam and possibly even the Phillipines (as part of a closer US Pacific partnership) and put a sword to the heart of the dragon.

The U.S. is very keen to play India into its great game in the Pacific, if we adopt a strategic stance similar to what France did with NATO, as opposed to a poodle-like British approach, some very interesting strategic possibilities open up...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Apr 2013 11:22

+ 1 to that, but in order to see the possibility, You need a leadership, that is managing its own foreign affairs. Right now, you have a curious situation where the US state dept, mediating between the center and the states, in the matter of national importance. International affairs are a long way off.

BTW, when is the first P 15 B due to enter service?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 09 Apr 2013 13:52

While I share the general sentiment on this forum that GOI dropped the ball in the case of Sri Lanka, especially on projects of strategic nature, I am not sure that the situation is as dire as one is lead to believe. Comparison with Pakistan will provide a suitable reference point.

Firstly, the word geo-politics has geo before politics for a reason. You can change the politics but it is impossible to change geography. For all Sri Lanka's song and dance with China it does not share a border with it unlike Pakistan. For all practical purposes China is as far from Sri Lanka as Canada or Iceland.

Secondly, We are assuming that the Sri Lankans are as fandu as the Bakis. For the Baki fandu, the real deal is after death where he gets to enjoy 72 instead of 4 in this life. The Bakis will eat grass for 1000 years to see India bite the dust. The Bakis are willing to destroy their own country if it ensures the destruction of India. Can the same be said of Sri Lanka and its people?

Thirdly, Assume Chinese Warships and submarines plan to use Hambantota during war to dominate the IOR region. Given that the port is well defined stationary target, unlike a submarine, I would expect our Navy to have scoped it out. They should by now know everything that is there to know about the port and its approaches. In a war they should be able to bottle it up if not blow it up within the 1st hour. If we are incapable of doing that then we should disband our Navy.

If a port right off our coast cannot be denied to our enemy why talk of operating out of Vietnam? If we cannot control the waters from the Arabian sea to the Andaman sea right off our coast why talk of operating in the Indo-China sea?

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 09 Apr 2013 14:38

pankajs wrote: Firstly, the word geo-politics has geo before politics for a reason. You can change the politics but it is impossible to change geography. For all Sri Lanka's song and dance with China it does not have a border with China unlike Pakistan. For all practical purposes China is as far from Sri Lanka as Canada or Iceland.

India does not have a land border with Canada or Iceland, it does with China, and the SLOCs are in places overlapping and in others contiguous.

pankajs wrote:Thirdly, Assume Chinese Warships and submarines plan to use Hambantota during war to dominate the IOR region. Given that the port is well defined stationary target, unlike a submarine, I would expect our Navy to have scoped it out.

The chances of Sri Lanka allowing military basing, especially in a war at Hambantota are very remote. What is a threat is China now having a fig leaf to snoop around in our backyard and in times of tension using the excuse of protecting it's interests at H'tota to send it's navy out there. But what is done is done.

pankajs wrote:If a port right off our coast cannot be denied to our enemy why talk of operating out of Vietnam? If we cannot control the waters from the Arabian sea to the Andaman sea right off our coast why talk of operating in the Indo-China sea?

It's the South China Sea. If you are going to have a doctrine of riposte than by definition it involves retaliatory action to the enemy's center of gravity. Alternatively, if we want to create Superfortress Andaman and have a defensive orientation with a blue water navy, sure it's much easier and less expensive - but cedes further strategic space literally and metaphorically to China.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 09 Apr 2013 15:31

RajitO wrote:India does not have a land border with Canada or Iceland, it does with China, and the SLOCs are in places overlapping and in others contiguous.

Sure, but my post was about rona-dhona on Sri Lanka and more specifically on the Hambantota port.

The chances of Sri Lanka allowing military basing, especially in a war at Hambantota are very remote. What is a threat is China now having a fig leaf to snoop around in our backyard and in times of tension using the excuse of protecting it's interests at H'tota to send it's navy out there. But what is done is done.

Just because the Chinese financed and built Hambantota does not make it their baby. The Chinese navy can visit Hambantota and for that matter Colombo, that is nearer India, at the invitation of the Sri Lankan gov or for refueling while on transit. Why does China need a fig leaf to move around India's backyard? China's right to navigational freedoms is provided by UNCLOS. If they are allowed free passage near our shores what is to prevent them from snooping on such visits.

It's the South China Sea. If you are going to have a doctrine of riposte than by definition it involves retaliatory action to the enemy's center of gravity. Alternatively, if we want to create Superfortress Andaman and have a defensive orientation with a blue water navy, sure it's much easier and less expensive - but cedes further strategic space literally and metaphorically to China.

If India where to transform the IOR into its pond and the first island chain was to restrict PLAN from breaking out into the Pacific, what space is conceded to the Chinese? India is restricted to IOR and China to the first island chain. China allows us free and safe passage in its sphere of influence and we allow them the same in the IOR. If China plays rough in its area of influence we can return the favor in the IOR. A balance of cooperation or if you like terror is thus established between the two.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 10 Apr 2013 10:19

Germans may find hard to sell their subs: Questions on HDW 214 sub

Questions have arisen about the efficacy of German submarines just before Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chancellor Angela Merkel sit down for talks in Berlin late this week when arms trade will be a certain, but underplayed, segment of the discussions.

A submarine tender is too lucrative one to covet and like all big ticket military hardware deals, sees tremendous undercutting of the rival’s position. This time the contest among French, German and Russian submarines promises to be no different. The last tender, close to Rs. 20,000 crore, was bagged by the French. The Germans were not considered due to a corruption charge that was rejected by the courts here.

Technical problems

Fingers are being pointed at the poor performance of German submarines in the South Korean and Greek navies. The Hindu has independently verified that allegations about persisting technical problems with the Korean’s HDW Type 214 submarines are correct. The informed sources also confirmed that a prototype Greek submarine of German design too suffered from serious problems.

But the Indian Navy, badly short of submarines and struggling to complete the French Scorpene project, does not have any complaints about its four German submarines. Sources in the Navy said the four HDW submarines were working fine and they were satisfied with their performance. The sources expressed ignorance about HDW submarines malfunctioning in South Korea. But Korean diplomatic sources admitted there were problems.

The German submarines with the Indian Navy seemed to have followed the same trajectory as the VIP AgustaWestland helicopters. Of the 12 choppers, three have arrived while the import of the remaining has been suspended due to bribery charge. Similarly, in the case of the German submarines, two arrived from the OEM and the other two were assembled here. Then the bribery charge struck and the option to build two more was withdrawn.

Vital shortcoming

According to the sources, Korean submarines Son Won II, Jeongji and Jung-geun were immobilised after the first submarine was badly damaged on the high seas. It has also been alleged that the submarines suffer noise problems. This is a vital shortcoming in a submarine which has to be as noiseless as possible to avoid detection. Or, as Navy officials say, they will be as easy to detect as some Chinese submarines that tried to recce the Bay of Bengal. “We picked them up each time they came,” claimed a Navy official.

Independent sources, however, said the noise levels of the German submarines were lower than the requirement but higher than what the manufacturers – ThyssenKrupp Marine Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) – had promised. The sources making the allegations also claimed HDW were fined for the persisting technical problems but none could independently verify the charge.

In the case of Greek submarine Papanikolis, the sources backed their claims with video footage that showed an unusual tilt as it dived. The Germans worked on the Papanikolis but the government has raised other issues.

These problems mean it will not be easy sailing for the German submarines when they make a pitch for the Indian Navy tender.

Currently, the Ministry of Defence is looking at the configuration for supply with circumspection and some more time might be required before a firm decision is taken to call for bids.

Ironically, the allegations against the Germans have originated from one of its close allies, thus indicating the cut-throat competition that is always an integral component of such large military tenders.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2013 10:43

interesting note here
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 86282.html

By Jung Sung-ki

Korea has developed a vertical launching system (VLS) to be installed on 3,000-ton heavy attack submarines to be deployed after 2018, according to a shipbuilding industry source, Monday.

Hyundai Heavy Industries and Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering are subcontractors for the heavy attack submarines.

It is the first time that the development of a submarine VLS in Korea has been confirmed. The Agency for Defense Development (ADD) has already developed one used aboard the 7,600-ton KDX-III Aegis destroyer.

A VLS is a modern type of missile-firing system used aboard submarines and surface vessels of several navies around the world. When installed on an attack submarine, a VLS allows a greater number and variety of weapons to be deployed in comparison to using only torpedo tubes.

Following the development of the VLS for subs, top shipbuilders in Korea and the ADD are also on track to develop an indigenous horizontal tube to launch torpedoes, cruise missiles and mines, the source said.

“The development of a vertical launching system has already been completed, while the development of a horizontal launching system is still under way,” the source told The Korea Times, asking not to be identified. “Developing the horizontal launching tube requires more sophisticated technology than the VLS development.”

The VLS would be used in launching long-range cruise missiles at key targets in North Korea.

The ADD has developed the 500-kilometer-range, ship-launched Cheonryong, which is a modified variant of the surface-to-surface Hyunmoo III-A ballistic missile. The missile range could be extended up to 1,000 kilometers, according to military sources.

The Cheonryong missiles are believed to have already been modified to be installed on Type-214 subs.

South Korea has successfully developed the Hyunmoo III-C surface-to-surface ballistic missile with a maximum range of 1,500 kilometers, following the deployment of the 1,000-kilometer-range Hyunmoo III-B.

With the VLS development, Korea would have an advantage in selling its submarines overseas in the future, the source added.

Currently, the South operates nine 1,200-ton, Type-209 submarines and three 1,800-ton, Type-214 submarines. They are all diesel- and electric-powered and were all built with technical cooperation from HDW of Germany.

As Germany restricts the transfer of key submarine technology, such as launching tubes, Korea would have difficulty exporting any of those locally-built submarines.

The Navy plans to deploy at least three more Type-214 submarines in the years to come.

Beginning in 2018, Seoul plans to build 3,000-ton KSS-III submarines fitted with domestically-built submarine combat systems aimed at automating target detection, tracking, threat assessment and weapons control.

The heavy attack sub will be armed with indigenous ship-to-ground cruise missiles and be capable of underwater operations for up to 50 days with an upgraded Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Att ... ne_program

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2013 18:56

The Russian-overhauled Vikramaditya, the new Vikrant and the Vishal will give the Indian Navy a big competitive edge in the Asia-Pacific Region.

The makings of a naval power

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 11 Apr 2013 19:08

Indian Navy to get aircraft enclave at Cochin International Airport

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Apr 2013 19:38

Austin wrote:The Russian-overhauled Vikramaditya, the new Vikrant and the Vishal will give the Indian Navy a big competitive edge in the Asia-Pacific Region.

The makings of a naval power

But before all that, we need to have te Vik in our hands on the promised timeline on July 13 and not be told that it will take another 6 months, by which time the port gets snow bound, leading to another 6 months delay.

Will · Post by **Will** » 11 Apr 2013 20:02

Is the IAC back in the dry dock?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Apr 2013 21:15

^^^

From the google images posted on this thread. Yes it is.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 11 Apr 2013 21:46

Austin wrote:The Russian-overhauled Vikramaditya, the new Vikrant and the Vishal will give the Indian Navy a big competitive edge in the Asia-Pacific Region.

The makings of a naval power

From the article

The availability of two 40,000-tonne carriers capable of hosting more than 40 MiG-29Ks (nominally 16 per ship) and approximately 20 helicopters gives the Indian Navy a significant advantage over the 60,000-tonne Liaoning with 18-20 J-15s (nominally 12 maximum).
....
....
Moreover, the superior strike capability of the Chinese jet is neutralized by the larger number of Indian fighters, as well as the higher-grade workmanship of the Indian Navy's Russian-built escort vessels.

Classical Soviet cum Russian thinking or overwhelming one opponents by numbers. The problem with this is that Su-33 is a much more capable fighter as compared to Mig-29. The range of Mig-29 is smaller as compared to Su-33, if one does not consider air-to-air refueling. The maximum load that the Su-33 can carry is more than that of Mig-29. This means that Indian Naval fighters will have to get closer to PLAANs fighters and consequently its CBG. The same does not apply to PLAAN's fighters and CBG.

Su-33 has the capacity to incorporate many, if not all, of the improvement which Su-35 will eventually field. This will make this fighter a very potent and possibly of being in the same capability matrix as F/A-18 Super Hornet. Now it rumored that IN went for Mig-29K because of its shorter wing span. With space being a premium on an aircraft carrier this is understandable. But what baffles one is the rational of having two aircraft carriers of the same class, i.e. about 40000 tonnes. What should have been done by IN is that the second aircraft carrier ought to have been 50000 tonnes or higher, with the third of 75000 tonnes or higher.

John · Post by **John** » 11 Apr 2013 21:52

Christopher Sidor wrote:assical Soviet cum Russian thinking or overwhelming one opponents by numbers. The problem with this is that Su-33 is a much more capable fighter as compared to Mig-29. The range of Mig-29 is smaller as compared to Su-33, if one does not consider air-to-air refueling. The maximum load that the Su-33 can carry is more than that of Mig-29. This means that Indian Naval fighters will have to get closer to PLAANs fighters and consequently its CBG. The same does not apply to PLAAN's fighters and CBG.

That is not true currently Su-33 operating from Kuz. have severe restriction and carry much less fuel and payload (around 3 tons) than what Mig-29k is currently capable of. Also for all historical buffs. naval encounters between carriers have demonstrated the superior #s and tactics ultimately determines the fate of a battle, the battle of midway being a great example (where Japanese had the far superior Zero).

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 11 Apr 2013 22:02

The Mig-29k is a far more modern fighter than J-15 or the Su-33. A Range of 2000 km is simply enough to tackle any threat to IN.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Apr 2013 09:31

The original Russian Su-33 were only capable of carrying A2A payload and dumb bombs no standoff weapons were tested , I am not sure what the reverse engineered Chinese Su-33 are capable of doing but Indian Mig-29K are fully capable of carrying standoff weapons like Klub and Kh-35 and newer A2A missile like RVV-SD and RVV-MD , over and above its RCS has been reduced and its integrated with modernised Zhuk-M and TopOwl HMD.

To claim a chinese Su-33 is more capable then the Mig-29K is comical , We dont even know how well they managed to reverse enginner the bird and if the weapons/Sensors and ability to operate from sea has been tested , without any meaningful data there is nothing to say.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Apr 2013 09:33

Indian crew starts to master Russian built INS Trikand

Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad started practical training of Indian crew for INS Trikand of the project 11356 which is under construction for Indian Navy.

As Yantar shipyard press secretary Sergey Mikhaylov reported to Interfax, "the personnel of Indian Navy having arrived to Kaliningrad after coastal study in St. Petersburg. Representatives of the shipyard started their practical training with the equipment of INS Trikand".

According to Sergey Mikhaylov, instructors from the delivery team of the shipyard and sailors of Baltic Fleet will train Indian sailors.

Mikhaylov also said that currently the frigate is in Baltiysk where the audit of readiness for the beginning of the governmental trials is being conducted. The factory trials (took place in sea ranges of the Baltic Fleet) were finished successfully.

Russia and India signed a 1.6 billion USD contract on the construction of three modified Krivak III class (also known as Talwar class) guided missile frigates for India in 2006.

The first frigate, INS Teg, joined the Indian Navy on April 27, 2012, and the second, INS Tarkash, arrived at the port of Mumbai in India on December 30, 2012.
The frigates are each armed with eight BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

They are also equipped with a 100-mm gun, a Shtil surface-to-air missile system, two Kashtan air-defense gun/missile systems, two twin 533-mm torpedo launchers and an antisubmarine warfare (ASW) helicopter.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 12 Apr 2013 14:37

Folks doesn't belong directly here but just couldn't resist the admiration of the seamanship
I think it's a Russian frigate