Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

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nvishal
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by nvishal »

Rafale's July take-off

On Dassault, HAL and Reliance
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 5th Feb 13

Will Aero India 2013, the aeronautical jamboree that kicks off in Bangalore on Wednesday, be relatively subdued? Since 2005, zing has been imparted to successive versions of this biennial air show by the Indian Air Force’s riveting, multi-billion dollar quest for a medium multi-role combat aircraft ( MMRCA) to help meet our two-front security challenges. Every alternate year, the world’s foremost military aircraft vendors – including Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, Eurofighter,Gripen International and MiG – would converge on Bangalore along with myriad sub-vendors, pitching for their products and vetting prospective Indian partners for the offset obligations that would accrue from the world’s biggest international fighter deal. And each time one of the contending fighters would scream into the skies for an aerobatics display, the pilot would push it to the limits knowing that key decision makers were watching the performance.

But now, with Dassault’s Rafale fighter having won that six-way contest, has the fizz gone out of Aero India? With none of the Rafale’s erstwhile rivals coming to Bangalore, what will the spectators and aerobatics buffs crane their necks upwards at? Other than the Rafale, the only foreign fighters performing aerobatics will be The Russian Knights, a Moscow-based team that flies the Sukhoi-27. Is this a metaphor for a larger strategic truth: that after everyone has come and gone, there still remain the Russians?

Actually, any reports of the demise of Aero India would be exaggerated, given India’s dubious status as the world’s biggest buyer of weaponry. Besides, New Delhi is also the world’s most unpredictable arms buyer; and some fighter manufacturers believe that the last word has not yet been said on the MMRCA purchase. Even as New Delhi and Dassault continue to negotiate, the runner-up in the MMRCA contest, Eurofighter GmbH, maintains a major presence in New Delhi. It will be there in Bangalore even if the Eurofighter itself will not fly displays.

Few know better than EADS, one of Eurofighter GmbH’s parent companies, how quickly apparently done deals collapse in the Indian procurement environment. In 2007, New Delhi reversed its decision to buy 197 light helicopters from Eurocopter after allegations of corruption emerged. In 2010, New Delhi cancelled its tender for Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) aerial refuelling aircraft, which Airbus seemed poised to win, and reissued the tender (last month, Airbus finally won the contract).

“It’s not over till the fat lady sings,” says an EADS official. With general elections due in the first half of 2014, there is speculation that negotiations with Dassault could run into a new government in New Delhi. Another aspect that EADS and Eurofighter regard as a potential deal-breaker is Dassault’s (perceived) inability to deliver the Rafale to the IAF at the price that Dassault quoted in its commercial bid. According to this argument, Dassault had counted on winning the Brazilian order for 36 Rafale fighters, and a UAE order for up to 60 Rafales, bringing down production costs. But with only the Indian tender for 126 fighters having been won, Dassault’s cost of production could be significantly higher than quoted. If so, political uncertainty would be compounded by financial unviability.

So how far is the ministry of defence (MoD) from actually signing a deal with Dassault? In my understanding there is a better-than-even chance that this could happen in June/July. People who should know insist that there is no looming deal-breaker in terms of cost; and that ongoing negotiations are not about cost but about the modalities of production in India.

Dassault’s major concern is that New Delhi’s Request for Proposals (as the tender document is called) mandates that the Rafale be assembled in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), with Dassault responsible for timely delivery. The French vendor argues that it can take responsibility for the first 18 Rafale fighters, which will be built in France and delivered to the IAF in flyaway condition. But the next 118 aircraft, which must be assembled in HAL, would be clouded by uncertainty, given HAL’s poor production ethos and track record. Recent delays in HAL’s production of the BAE Systems trainer, the Hawk, support Dassault’s contention.

Dassault is arguing for doing much of the production and integration at a facility that it will set up in partnership with Reliance, which it partnered a year ago. Negotiations continue, with Dassault contending that it cannot be responsible for delivery if the aircraft were to be manufactured on a HAL line; while the MoD insists that the Dassault-Reliance venture can build components, sub-systems and systems, but the integration must be done at HAL.


Meanwhile, the Rafale will entertain the crowds at Aero India, unencumbered by the presence of a crop of rivals. And, as long as India retains its dubious status as the world’s biggest buyer of weaponry (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute estimates that India imported $3.58 billion, or Rs 19,000 crore, worth of conventional arms in 2011), Aero India 2013 will be bigger than ever.

Tailpiece: also flying aerobatics displays will be the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), an Indian-designed and -built fighter that is a major aeronautical triumph but has never got the funding or attention that it deserves. The Tejas, at an advanced stage of flight testing, will perform vertical loops, barrel rolls and display its low-speed handling capabilities. Keep an eye out for it.
India is not a manufacturing country. We skipped that phase and embraced the "service" industry instead. Now the problem is back to bite us hard.

A US congressional report(in 2009?) evaluated the HAL production line to be more than 30 years behind in time. I will doubt HALs manpower also.

These are the facts, jingoism aside.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Karan M wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:Fair enough. The fact that they are going for J-20 and J-31 while they are in talks with Soviets for Su-35, i.e. Super Flanker tells us something. If Su-35 were so great and would be able to penetrate the air defenses of the Americans then PRC would not have been developing J-20 and J-31. Against Indian air defense systems, it is a different story.
Or they are developing these knowing they wont get the core tech on the Su-35. Remember, the Russians didn't transfer avionics or engine tech and even held back overhaul & maintenance assistance on the Sukhois! The PRC hence tried to reverse engineer the Su-27SK, which has been a mediocre attempt so far. And given their tendency to copy the Joneses -their latest attempt is on similar lines.
Simple fact of the matter is that if the PRC had 300 Su-35s, the US would be far more worried than against their 300 odd J-20/J-31 combo or whatever, since the US knows how capable the former are. Pair the above Su-35s with potent Kh-31/Kh-35/Moskit style missiles...and you have a very strong anti access force.
But these same planes can be used against Russia itself. Which is why only 48 Su-35s are on offer and no TOT.
Su-35 and Su-37 are intended to be an interim fighter, which will fill the gap till a 5th generation fighter flies for the Russian Air Force. It is not meant as a substitute for a 5th generation fighter. Neither is it marketed as one. As for the low number of only 48, this number may well increase. It looks like you are seeing only a part of picture.
Karan M wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:PRC knows that they will need to have a very long range fighter-bomber able to take on US Marines and USN in Western Pacific along with Indian forces in the south. J-20 may or may not be used as a pure A2A fighter like F-22, but what it definitely will be used is to carry out deep interdiction over the enemy's territories or bases.
Nobody knows this, at this point everyone is speculating as to its role. What the J-20 is as of now, is a TD. Till yesterday the PRC dabbed some paint onto the nozzles and everyone was ooh-aah over a new Chinese engine. Now the fans reluctantly concede that its a standard AL-31 with paint. That is how the PRC has controlled media around this plane to build hype. But substance is a different matter.
Now, think of how much MTOW this large airframe has, the challenges faced by every program till date in sticking to the budgeted weight (pretty much all overshot by a significant margin) and the relatively older engines. So who knows exactly how this will perform? What of the avionics package? What of its internal weapons package?
Calling it an interdictor or an interceptor is to jump the gun. It will take a decade + to mature, and by then, the technologies available to India would have jumped manifold, including a range of radars and sensors operating across multiple bands.
It is not jumping the gun rather it is being the most logical explanation. Having such a massive body implies that the fighter will be able to carry massive amount of fuel or load. Fuel makes more sense because PLAAF have to cover great distances in Western Pacific. They can depend on air-refueling, but that would make the fighters vulnerable. All a F-22 pilot has to do is take out the tankers and leave upto Aegis systems or to laws of energy conservation to do the rest. You are saying that it will take a decade + to mature I believe it will be closer than that. Under-estimating ones enemy is a sign of hubris.
Karan M wrote: If you actually follow BVR tactics, the weakest link in BVR today is the RF missile & RF guidance. If they get jammed or spoofed, then your primary weapon is useless and you have to go to WVR. Even here, China does not yet have Imaging Infra Red AAMs like India has purchased with the Mica and is tendering for with the Jaguar & are planned for other aircraft upgrades. They too can get spoofed by flares. And again, if missiles malfunction or get spoofed - forget WVR, you are down to guns.

Ironically, in an era of unforeseen electronics expansion, guns remain the certain sure shot killer

Which is why the IAF continues to place a lot of emphasis not just on BVR but WVR and even guns!
Christopher Sidor wrote:The era of WVR is over and is coming to a close.
Hardly! WVR remains the most deadly arena and as a result of which, more advanced WVR missiles are being developed. WVR has been written off by futurists many times, only to bite everyone when it resurfaced. The other day, even the F-22 finally received AIM-9X capability.
It may be the most deadly, but it will also be the arena where most of the fighter engagements will not happen. WVR and even guns may be included on the fighter but only for giving an edge in case of an unforeseen disadvantage that the pilot might find himself in. The predominant arena will remain BVR especially for fighter to fighter engagement. Fighters rarely lurk around after firing their BVR missiles. Even Stealth fighters. The kill confirmation can come from AWACS or from SigNet or from various other sources. It is fire and forget. The chances of flares or Jammers being effective in protecting one fighter is slim. Rather in todays world the fighter which gets off the first shot, will most likely win.

And like you said "forget WVR and go to guns" then why are even arm the fighters with WVR? It looks more like waste. Then the example of AIM-9X capability which was quoted is null and void.
Karan M wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:And further you are assuming that PLAAFs J-20 and J-31 would be picked up and tracked. I am not so sanguine about that currently. Maybe by 2020 we might have the capability, but right now it is a big question mark.
How do you know its a big question mark? All you have are a couple of flying TDs and you are ascribing capabilities to them. Do they have operational RAM? What are their actual signatures? And proper all aspect values? What is their signature management? No theoretical papers please by Kopp & co about possible results assuming best in class methods currently available to far more mature aerospace industries. Second, its pretty logical to note that the PLAAF's fighters would be picked up and tracked as India is well on its way to fielding one of the world's most complex farms of multiband radars, from S Band (LLTR, LLLWR, AEW&CS, MPR) to LBand (Phalcon, Strategic Radars) and not just X Band, then there are ESM and CSM systems, all of which will be networked.

And 2020 is pretty ok even if India did not have these capabilities now (to a significant extent it does) since only by then will the J-20 end up getting into some sort of operational shape as an actual weapons platform.
You are being very dismissive about the threat and the time frame. Reminded me of a person I met in early 2000s, who was also dismissive about the PLA's build up across the taiwan straits. Now it has gone to such a point that Taiwan's forces are said to be no match against the mass which is arrayed against it.
Karan M wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:I dont deny it. Rafale is a very capable Omni-role aircraft, something which IAF wanted. This is unlike EFT. But it is still not stealthy enough.
How do you know that its not stealthy enough? How do we know what a Rafale with its Spectra jamming, flying nap of the earth, can or cannot do? Stealth(y) strike can be achieved by many ways, the Rafale takes one other approach, of LO+ EW+ long range strike via missiles like SCALP.
If you have the figures for RCS for Rafale, which can back up your arguments please do share them with us. And please note that the figures should be for a fully loaded Rafale fighter.
Nap flying is not the answer to making a fighter stealthy. It is too much dependent on the terrain to be that useful. On the Tibetan plateau we might not get the cover of valleys or other terrain to really carry out most of our missions.
There is something to be said for a fighter which does not have to depend on the terrain for being hard to detect. And that too which can easily do the same missions without having to carry out relatively dangerous manovers like hugging the ground while flying in day or night.

Karan M wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:And if PRC starts to deploy S-400 or its cloned equivalent in East Turkestan, Tibet and central China the task of Rafael gets tough if not impossible.
The S-400 is not sold to China yet, and even if it were, it remains vulnerable to LRCM strikes delivered by a low flying fighter.
So should we wait for PRC to acquire it and then go and look for fighters which can penetrate it. We being reactive rather than being proactive. Always one step behind, just matching our enemies with a step, never thinking of surpassing them.
Karan M wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:The problem is that we do not need a fighter which can do everything a Mirage 2K, Mig-29 or Jaguar can do. What we need tomorrow is a highly networked-cum-integrated fighter (which Rafale is) along with a stealthy aircraft (which Rafale is not).
Again, more assumptions here. Where is this stealthy fighter that can replace the Rafale?
Its clearly not the JSF, because its side RCS is nothing great, and its internal carriage is pathetic at 4 odd missiles. Furthermore, if external stores are kept, there goes the frontal RCS as well. Further, no internal jammer is fitted to aid the RCS reduction. And nor are JSFs available to India in plenty, soon and with TOT (the IAF insists on local sourcing of spares as much as possible).
So basically, this argument is a non starter. In 2022, the IAF will get its own stealthy platform, and that will complement the Rafales.
Do you figures to back up your arguments that RCS of Rafale will be superior to that of JSF. Take it from the front from the side or from some other angle.
Now what good use is ability to carry twice the load of JSF if a fighter is unable to deliver it to its target.
And about JSFs not being available to India, in numbers, can you please give on what basis you are basing this?
By 2022 IAF will get its a russian stealth platform not an Indian one.
Karan M wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:We are going to be spending more than 10 billion USD on this fighter. Does it make sense to spend more than 10 billion USD on a fighter which might not be able to penetrate PRC's defenses without a proper escort?
Rafales self escort, that is the entire point of having such a multirole fighter. You have come to the rather flawed conclusion that a) the PRCs defences are so formidable that only a stealth fighter would do b) that such a stealth fighter is available and c) the Rafale cannot get through the PRC defences.
The point of having a multi-role aircraft is that a plane which can carry out A2G and A2A missions easily. Self Escort is not one of them. Further if PRCs defences were not so formidable or getting to that level USN/USAF would have happy gone with more advanced FA-18/F-15 fighters. But since these fighters would not be able to do the missions that USAF/USN would be called to undertake in the western pacific F-22 and F-35 were built.
You are falling for the fallacy that USA has not offered F-35 to us.
And yes today if we had Rafale maybe it could with ease penetrate the air defenses of PRC. Come 2020, and that is only 7 years mind you, this well might not be the case.

Some people have said that I am enamored to 5th gen fighters. Nothing can be further from the truth. The only thing that I am insistent about is our fighters have the ability to penetrate the increasingly competent PRC's air defense systems. As more and more days pass Rafael does not seem a fighter which can do that. Rather than waiting for that to happen and then look around for a solution, we should be spending 10 billion USD on something more worthwhile.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by arthuro »

Rafale: everything goes well

[...]"Everything is going well," says a source close to the case even if there is little chance that this contract to be signed, despite the willingness of Indian the Air Force and authorities before the end of the fiscal year which ends in late March. The visit of François Hollande (February 14 and 15) ,revealed by Challenges, will not be the opportunity to sign this mégacontrat. Dassault Aviation expects rather a contract this summer or year-end, according to our information. Not later because the elections are scheduled in India in May 2014. Three months before the election date, no contract of this magnitude will be signed. In December, the Ministry of Defence of India had publicly and plainly stated that "the MMRCA contract has not been finalized so far because the negotiations are ongoing."

The challenge for Dassault Aviation is to organize the vast transfer of technologies required by New Delhi in good conditions for Indians and in conditions of reasonable safety for the Rafale Team (Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran). This is far from simple. Finding Indian suppliers for such a contract is a big challenge ... and time consuming. So, Dassault Aviation discusses step by step financial guarantees in case of failure of local suppliers.[...]
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... t-ete.html
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by rajanb »

nvishal wrote:Rafale's July take-off

On Dassault, HAL and Reliance
by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 5th Feb 13


<snip>

People who should know insist that there is no looming deal-breaker in terms of cost; and that ongoing negotiations are not about cost but about the modalities of production in India.

Dassault’s major concern is that New Delhi’s Request for Proposals (as the tender document is called) mandates that the Rafale be assembled in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), with Dassault responsible for timely delivery. The French vendor argues that it can take responsibility for the first 18 Rafale fighters, which will be built in France and delivered to the IAF in flyaway condition. But the next 118 aircraft, which must be assembled in HAL, would be clouded by uncertainty, given HAL’s poor production ethos and track record. Recent delays in HAL’s production of the BAE Systems trainer, the Hawk, support Dassault’s contention.

Dassault is arguing for doing much of the production and integration at a facility that it will set up in partnership with Reliance, which it partnered a year ago. Negotiations continue, with Dassault contending that it cannot be responsible for delivery if the aircraft were to be manufactured on a HAL line; while the MoD insists that the Dassault-Reliance venture can build components, sub-systems and systems, but the integration must be done at HAL.



These are the facts, jingoism aside.
This is what I was afraid of (The italicised part.). I have faced this too. Being responsible for failure if the Govt. mandated company fails.

Nobody in their right mind would accept this. I am shocked that the Govt. can impose such a clause, still. We could convince them to change it

If negotiations fail, EADs will lick their chops for a few days and then be up against the wall. The sad part is they will also have objections to such an open ended liability under which they have no control, and the whole process will take as much time, all over again, delaying the procurement.

What the MoD and MoF and CAG should realise that it is pragmatic to spend some time and buddhi in seeking guarantees from all parties which supply the finished product to the enduser.

For e.g delay in supply of raw material/components/assemblies etc. and quality should be Dassault's fault and the actual manufacturing delays and the accompanying quality of manufacture, HAL's fault and liability.

If HAL's production is 30 years behind time then MoD/MoF et al are also living in the time of Tigermoth a/c manufature. :-?
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by KrishnaK »

From the link arthuro posted http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... t-ete.html
In India, there is not the Rafale. EADS is the signing of two contracts this year: Maitri missile and aircraft refueling. Its subsidiary MBDA (37.5%) has been waiting for a beautiful year contract worth approximately $ 1.8 billion to co-develop a missile surface to air next generation in partnership with India. "The negotiations were completed in December 2011 and the program is past the defense council in December 2012, says it in The Tribune. Suddenly, there are too many more steps to go." Maitri program is based on the work done by the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organization) and a technology transfer from MBDA to fill gaps in the Indian industry. Eventually, it is planned to produce about 2,000 missiles by Bharat Dynamics Limited Maitri. This system of air defense meet the needs of the Air Force, Navy and Army.
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Post by arthuro »

India's Rafale fighter jets purchase not delayed due to budget cuts - minister
Feb 6 (R euters) - India's purchase of French Rafale fighter jets are not delayed because of New Delhi's budget cuts this year, including those affecting defence, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said on Wednesday.
India picked the Rafale fighter jets, made by Dassault Aviation, in 2012 and price negotiations are proceeding. Antony was speaking at an air show in the southern Indian city of Bangalore. (Reporting by Anurag Kotoky and Ananthalakshmi Ananthsankar.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 365516.cms
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Post by arthuro »

HAL Getting Ready to Build Rafale Assembly Plant
BANGALORE--Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. has begun "advanced preparations" to build a facility to assemble Dassault Aviation Rafale fighter jets in India, the state-run company's chairman said Wednesday.[...]
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 58956.html
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by member_20453 »

Raffy is more than capable of handling almost everything PLAAF can throw at it, combine it with the Super MKI, LCA MK-2, we can gain air dominance quickly, however, Raffy needs a mix of home made and Unkil' weapons kits. The new GPS glide bomb, sudarshan lgb need to be ordered in thousands, IAF needs to be able to decimate the enemy's ground force and for that the SDB 1/2, CBU-105SFW and CLAW weapons are must haves. Mini Brahmos, Mini Nirbhay and the New Anti radtiation missile need to be fielded quickly.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Singha »

Septimus , Austin has posted a russian mag pdf in another thread. one firm there has converted a plain HSLD type 250kg bomb with the folding wing gps guided kit and is claiming 60km range and porpoise moves in the handout.

so it cant be that difficult if we pursue it seriously ourselves as a complement to the laser guided sudarshan. being unpowered these wing kits should be affordable.
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Post by nvishal »

I'm posting an old article from feb 2012 about dassult partnering up with mukesh ambanis reliance industries to setup a production line for the rafale aircraft in india.

Dassault Aviation, India's Reliance in defence pact
India's Reliance Industries and France's Dassault Aviation have signed a pact for partnering in the defence and homeland security sector
Reliance Industries, India's most-valuable company, did not give any further detail on the tie-up with the French company.

Controlled by Mukesh Ambani, the world's ninth-richest man, Reliance Industries has been looking to diversify as growth in its core oil and gas business slows. The company has expanded into newer sector such as retail and telecom in recent years.
ImageImage

Reliance enters defence manufacture with Rafale maker
Reliance Industries has been eyeing the relatively closed field of defence manufacturing and homeland security for the past year or so. In fact Reliance chairman Mukesh Ambani handpicked Dr Vivek Lall, a former top executive with Boeing last year to lead the company's foray into the sector.

Dr Lall was appointed president and CEO in Ambani's office to spearhead the growth in new ventures in April 2011. According to top industry sources, Lall has been given the mandate to explore possibilities in the defence and homeland security sector.

Dr Lall, a highly qualified mechanical and aeronautical engineer, had led Boeing's charge into India when he headed the operations of the US company here between 2007 and 2011 as vice president and country head. It was under his charge that Boeing secured the largest ever US-India defence deal for 10 C-17 Strategic lift aircraft, P-8I long range maritime reconnaissance planes for the Indian Navy and Harpoon missiles for the Indian armed forces.

According to a statement by the French company: 'Dassault Aviation, a major player in the global aerospace industry, has entered into an MoU with Reliance Industries Ltd, India's largest private sector company, for pursuing strategic opportunities of collaboration in the area of complex manufacturing and support in India.'

Both Reliance and Dassault will have to inform the ministry of defence about the tie-up, since such ventures have to be cleared by the government before they get into actual on-ground partnership.
Under Dr Vivek Lall, Reliance Industries has already entered the homeland security systems to make mega cities secure, and signed agreements with Raytheon and Siemens in the past six months.
This Vivek Lall character is associated with western defence companies and maybe that's why Defence ministry is insisting that assembly be done in HAL only. But since HAL is irresponsible, it may become a possibility.

More on the partnership here - http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... raft-parts

IMO, HAL is necessary for secrecy
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by krishnan »

http://in.news.yahoo.com/rafale-deal-hi ... iness.html

BANGALORE (Reuters) - India's agreement to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France's Dassault Aviation is of the "highest priority" in India's budget for the upcoming financial year that begins in April, Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne said on Thursday.

India picked the Rafale jet for exclusive negotiations over a year ago after a hotly contested bidding war with rival manufacturers, but is still to finalise the $10 billion deal.

The deal would not be signed during a visit of French President Francois Hollande to India next week, a diplomatic source said on Wednesday.

(Reporting by Anurag Kotoky; Writing by Henry Foy; Editing by Jeremy Laurence)
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Post by SaiK »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19902

mmmm.. cost escalation or tech transfer .. close to being a closed chapter.
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Post by nvishal »

More on Dassault, HAL and Reliance
18 readymade jets assembled from france while rest 108 assembled in india by indian manufacturers(HAL or Reliance - MoD insisting on HAL)
the air chief stated that current negotiations were not about price but about “work share between HAL (and) Dassault.”
The French company fears that the new arrangement could hold Dassault responsibility for delays actually caused by HAL.
Rafale would ideally like to build its entire fighter in the Dassault-Reliance JV with HAL’s role being reduced to a token screwdriver turn. But the MoD cannot accept that, since the Request for Proposals (RfP) mandates that the Rafale will be assembled in HAL. Negotiations are now about the maximum role permissible for the Dassault-Reliance JV,” says an official involved in the discussions.
“(We will go by) whatever are the terms and conditions of the RfP,” said Antony, terming it “non-negotiable”.
Air Chief Marshal Browne answered in greater detail.

“The OEM (original equipment manufacturer, i.e. Dassault) has been given the full right to select any production partner that he wishes to have in India or abroad.” explained Browne.
“(But) the licensed manufacture part, it is very clear in the RfP that it has to be done by HAL…. Whatever else he (Dassault) gets manufactured here, there, wherever… the Indian government and the IAF have no issues there. As long as those kits and everything else are supplied and given to HAL at the instance of the OEM, for the licensed manufacture.”

The outcome of the CNC negotiations, say experts, will be crucial in determining the trajectory of Reliance’s emergence as an aerospace manufacturer in India.
MoD wants those parts manufactured on license to be done by their public company(HAL). Reliance-Dassault JV free to manufacture random(non-licensed) parts and stuff.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Hiten »

Image
via http://www.aame.in/2013/02/transfer-of- ... ology.html

shouldn't the Manufacturing processes shown in the slide, like the Robotic Riveting, Nano-composite manufacturing etc be usable for other projects?
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Post by RoyG »

SSwamy says Rafale kickback will come out soon.

http://live.indiatimes.com/#top
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by rsingh »

OMG Time magazine is very harsh on F- 35. Anybody with subscription please post the article

few gems;
"The single engine, singleseat F-35 is a real life example of adage that a camel is horse designed by commette"
or this
Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine,the bible of the aerospace industry and traditional supporter, published and editorial last fall that declared the programme "already a faliure " on cost and schedule and said "the jurry is still out" on its capabilities. It suggested pitting the F-35 against existing fighters-Airforce F -15s and F-16s and Navy F-18s -future of US fighter purchases.
Christopher Sidor
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Christopher Sidor »

^^^^
I dont get this part. After being unable to meet the L1 criteria, why are they still harping on it? I dont see the Russians or the swedes or the Americans still harboring hopes for their wares. While the dogged persistence of the Brits is admirable, is there something else that we are missing?
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Post by Indranil »

The Russians or the Swedes or the Americans did not make it to the last round :-)
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Post by VinodTK »

More news; related to the above news ^^^^

Eurofighter still in race for India jet deal: CEO
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by sourab_c »

^ Yes, the GOI has them on standby to help the negotiations with the French in case they try to suddenly revise their prices or change too many terms of the original contract.
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Post by SaiK »

I don't want to register, is there a free copy?
anmol
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Post by anmol »

SaiK wrote:
I don't want to register, is there a free copy?
FT have deal with Google News, so if you would search the headline in google news and click the link from result... it would take you to article and won't bother about registering.
Last updated: February 15, 2013 5:03 pm

PM in last-ditch bid for India fighter dealBy George Parker in London and Victor Mallet in New Delhi

David Cameron will next week launch a last-ditch attempt to snatch a $20bn jet fighter deal from under the nose of French president François Hollande, as he leads a business delegation to Mumbai and New Delhi.
Mr Hollande was in India this week and said progress had been made on the sale of 126 French Rafale fighters to India. The French press reported it could be concluded in July and Mr Hollande said: “I only hope we are able to close the negotiations at an early date.”
The fact that no deal has yet been signed has raised a glimmer of hope in Downing Street that New Delhi might yet ultimately opt for the UK-German-Italian-Spanish Eurofighter Typhoon over the Dassault Rafale.
A Downing Street official said: “We respect the fact that the Indians have chosen their preferred bidder and are currently negotiating with the French. We will continue to promote Eurofighter as a great fast jet not just in India but around the world.”
India, despite budget constraints, is seeking to re-equip all its armed forces from both foreign and domestic suppliers and has overtaken China to become the world’s biggest importer of weapons.
Although confident they could hold their own in any conventional conflict with Pakistan, Indian military chiefs fear the growing strength of the People’s Liberation Army of China; the two countries share a long and disputed border.
BAE Systems is close to finalising a deal to supply the Indian army with M777 155mm light howitzers and Mr Cameron is expected to raise the contract during talks in New Delhi.
The British premier, making his second trade visit to India since his election in 2010, is also expected to engage his hosts on a number of contentious issues holding back trade between the two countries.
Tesco is among the supermarkets facing problems expanding in India because of requirements on the sourcing of local products as well as rules on their provision of local infrastructure.
Meanwhile, Vodafone remains mired in a $2.6bn tax row in India over its purchase of Hutchison Essar in 2007, although India says it is close to being settled. British executives want Mr Cameron to push for an end to punitive and sometimes retrospective tax claims by Indian authorities.
Yasmine Hilton, who heads the Indian subsidiary of Royal Dutch Shell, complained this week about the “absurdity” of a tax claim for $1bn over the alleged underpricing of shares sold to its parent company four years ago to finance $160m of investment in India.
The prime minister is also pushing for British financial services companies – particularly insurers – to be given easier access to Indian markets, while he will also promote sectors including energy, healthcare, food and drink and fashion.
Mr Cameron will be pressed by business leaders from both Britain and India to make it easier for Indian students and skilled professionals to study or work in the UK.
“If you look at the Indian diaspora that’s made a huge impact on Silicon Valley in the US, you don’t see a similar impact in the UK,” said Vassi Naidoo, a senior executive of Deloitte in London. He said it was “really difficult” for UK-based companies to obtain visas for Indians.
Mr Cameron will also try to ease Indian concerns about Britain’s visa regime for students.
Last updated: February 15, 2013 5:03 pm
By George Parker in London and Victor Mallet in New Delhi
SaiK
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by SaiK »

playing with numbers again!!!... @18b for 126 a/cs.. who has more clarity? MoD/forces/CAG/?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19927
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Post by SagarAg »

SaiK wrote:playing with numbers again!!!... @18b for 126 a/cs.. who has more clarity? MoD/forces/CAG/?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19927
IMHO 18 billion dollars is a serious NO NO!! Are we buying gold plated fighter jets or what? I am not against investing 18 billion dollars but investing such mammoth amount should result in gaining tech know how which will leap the aerospace sector in India by at least 10 years. Investing this huge amount without gaining any useful tech knowledge and just getting the bird is sheer wastage of money and a missed opportunity to help develop aerospace sector in India.
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Post by VishalJ »

My Latest Photo:

Rina, Outbound ► http://www.airliners.net/photo/2232797/L/


From what i was told, with AVM Tiwary onboard for a test/demo flight
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Post by SaiK »

dunno why they introduced a delta drag on the canard with those supposed sensor packs (unlike the wing tip sensor which are shaped well)? I guess the same question would go for their non-retractable fixed refueler pod. similarly, they could have taken the projection mass of the sensors on the inlets inside than protruding outside.
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Post by SaiK »

really much much above the eyebrows!!!
http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=19939 The force is also heavily banking upon the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters from Dassault, the final commercial negotiations for which are now in progress.
hello mr CAG saars, please read these and take some action.
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Post by Victor »

Dassault wants HAL role separated, $20-billion combat aircraft jet deal hits air-pocket
..the firm told Indian negotiators that the government will have to sign separate contracts — one with Dassault for 18 'fly-away' aircraft and another with HAL, which will produce 108 jets under licence.
This is a major problem. All the bidders, including Dassault, seem to have ignored HAL's role while making their bids and it has now surfaced suddenly as a potential deal breaker. If true, how is it that the MoD's mention of HAL as the kead integrator in the RFP was not noticed by any of the bidders and the subsequent absense of anything HAL-related in the bids never raised red flags right in the beginning? Something is rotten.
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Post by Lalmohan »

HAL has always been the expected builder - but clearly GOI want Dassault to be held accountable for HAL's production - which Dassault are not willing to guarantee
you can figure out why and why not from there
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Post by Austin »

Not sure why Dassault cannot gurantee it from HAL chairmans interview to FORCE some time back he had mentioned that Su-30MKI created from CKD/SKD and then from local indian materials including engine components built under TOT are done under the supervision of OEM folks based out here , they do the QC for the final product built by HAL and then it gets flight certified and given to the customer , which is to say every process done at HAL is supervised by OEM based at HAL.

So Dassult or some one else doing the same should not be a big deal. Dassault has to verify that the process followed by HAL is according to the laid specification and so goes for engine built under TOT and do the QC/Flight Qualify/Certify when the final product is built and flight tested
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Post by Lalmohan »

maybe the financial conditions in the MMRCA deal are more complex/stringent?
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Post by Austin »

Lalmohan wrote:maybe the financial conditions in the MMRCA deal are more complex/stringent?
Atleast AFAIK the offset part for MMRCA is bigger its 50 % or was it rolled back to 30 % later.

financially speaking the 280 plus MKI costs around 10-12 billion dollar and 126 Rafale around $20 billion , likely Dassult wants to get their hands off and does not want to spoon feed/monitor HAL through the entire process i.e full 126 A/C built over many years or may be they would do that at an extra cost but then it may turn out to be expensive in the long run.

The other reason i can think of is Dassult does not want to get blamed for acts of Ommision and Commision should HAL end up making mess of Rafale lic deal .... see no reason why HAL cant do a good job as they are building a new facility at bangalore with absolutely modern tooling system to lic build rafale.

Even with Su-30MKI deal the lic production deal was not very smooth as the OEM was not happy with the final product delivered from HAL and it took some time to get it going smooth.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by NRao »

Austin wrote:Not sure why Dassault cannot gurantee it from HAL chairmans interview to FORCE some time back he had mentioned that Su-30MKI created from CKD/SKD and then from local indian materials including engine components built under TOT are done under the supervision of OEM folks based out here , they do the QC for the final product built by HAL and then it gets flight certified and given to the customer , which is to say every process done at HAL is supervised by OEM based at HAL.

So Dassult or some one else doing the same should not be a big deal. Dassault has to verify that the process followed by HAL is according to the laid specification and so goes for engine built under TOT and do the QC/Flight Qualify/Certify when the final product is built and flight tested
The issue is not (as I see it) what the OEM does or does not do, it is who ate the end is responsible.

So does "gets flight certified" mean that the Russian OEM is finally responsible or is it still HAl that is?
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Post by member_20453 »

Either way if indeed the fly away cost of 126 Rafale is 20 billion excluding weapons, the cost per aircraft comes to over 158 million which IMO is unacceptable. This is a very hefty price.

Time to end this fiasco, we should just order the SH International in FMS, we would save around 40 million per aircraft just in fly away costs. We would also gain billions in savings in the long run due to engine commonality with LCA mk-2. If LCA mk-2 does strike a powerful note with the IAF, the order might rise and the combined savings of operating the SH would be enormous. I can bet such a large order with Unkil would give us leverage in diluting some of intrusive agreements with them. Also SH with the F414 is far more rugged and reliable as a platform. It is also cheaper to maintain during its life time. It's cutting edge weapons and operational net centricity is unparalleled and its ability to work in tandem with P-8I would be of great value. It's radar is proven and its long detection range allows it to be a mini awacs. As for A2A weapons, there is no reason why Astra mk-2, Meteor or any other A2A missile from EU or US or Issy can't be integrated onto it. For A2G there is no other better ground pounder looking at the variety of nasty weapons it can deploy.

The SH international is still the best value for money for the MRCA.
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Post by Austin »

^^ Not sure who does the flight certified thing for India must be the DGCA :D

OEM assures that HAL build the products to the standard it specifies and there is no deviation in the process they follow or the materials they use etc atleast that is what I got to understand from the HAL Interview , if I get it i will try to post it.
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Post by Austin »

Septimus P. wrote:Either way if indeed the fly away cost of 126 Rafale is 20 billion excluding weapons, the cost per aircraft comes to over 158 million which IMO is unacceptable. This is a very hefty price.
The cost gets escalated YOY due to military inflation which as we are told is twice that of your normal inflation that country experiences .so the cost of $20 billion is the total cost over the period that the 126 Rafale will be manufacured plus the Lic Cost , TOT cost , cost of machine and equipment that needs to be imported to build the Rafale in India under LIC/TOT , perhaps in the initial stage even the raw material cost , since we wont be building every thing under the sun for rafale a lot of equipment still needs to be imported.

So what cost $60 million today would cost twice or may be more 10 years from now due to rising cost of every thing that goes to build the aircraft.

Super Hornet .....sorry Rafale is fine , French equipment is reliable , IAF has used many french aircraft in the past , french have been proven not to sanction india , we can hardwire the Rafale for Nuclear delivery no strings attached , Ofcourse SH is a Naval Aircraft that comes with its own head that Airforce is better off not carrying it.
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by manum »

I don't think now MKI's are any cheaper anymore...So if we talking about saving costs, the deal must be cut through as early as possible....
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Re: Raffy wins - Go Katrina!

Post by Yogi_G »

With Dassault not willing to accept responsibility for HAL production, why arent we squeezing round shaped objects now and start flirting with Euro fighter and MIG? Why this continued tolerance to delays and haggling?
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Post by Austin »

IAF wants the Rafale and not any other fighter hence the tolerance to Dassult which i think would be resolved , the order is too big for Dassult to let go and it secures Rafales future and Dassult bottom line for years to come.
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