India's Power Sector

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 02 Aug 2012 00:20

Iceland is the only country where 80% of it's energy needs are met with geo thermal. They never drink bottled water there, the tap water is healthier than any bottled variety. For India only a few regions in the hills can possibly benefit from geo thermal sources.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 02 Aug 2012 03:15

Theo_Fidel wrote: If you are looking for options an adsorption chiller type A/C might be a better bet. It is considerably cheaper and can run on waste heat. In fact the newer models can use 70c hot water. This is can be supplied by a simple solar panel on the roof. In fact the more blazing the sun the more efficiently the A/C. will run. The smaller size units are relatively new however, so YMMV and all that...

I am toying with the idea. Any inputs on indian brands?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Aug 2012 03:34

I have heard about a coimbatore company making it.

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Aug 2012 07:21

I am toying with the idea. Any inputs on indian brands?

Look up Thermax. They used to do some work in this area. Not sure if any of their products are residential sized though.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 02 Aug 2012 10:32

Thermax dont do houses. High time someone made a mass produced adsorption A/C with either solar thermal power or a peltier effect one (to augment geothermal heat pump) for maintenance free units

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 02 Aug 2012 10:51

Robur has a 3-ton unit that is available through Robur India. Be advised that even though the technology is quite old the 5 ton and smaller units are very high technology and very new. I would suggest waiting for 2-3 years for the technology to mellow a little. In the meantime all commecial buildings should switch to the technology IMO.

I believe Yazaki has one as well.

Singha will be pleased to know that several small German shops are producing them and steadily improving performance every year. One day it will burst forth and wipe out the competition... ..until the Chinese get hold of it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Aug 2012 16:56

the problem is in identifying the opportunity.. and chips do it... and ashamedly we buy it at any cost.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 02 Aug 2012 18:03

Katare wrote:In MP they are shutting off and removing the transformers if no one in the village has electricity connection. One large road side village (6-8K population) was without electricity for 6 month when i visited India 2 years back. Last month when I was back in India again, the villagers got together and paid for a new transformer and electric company installed overhead wires that are twisted cables. Only people with valid connections are getting electricity and paying their bills for the first time in their life. Can't put a hook on these insulated cables with twisted wire inside carrying both positive and return charge, if you try to cut it'll create a short. They are putting one mini transformer every 5 acres to supply electricity but it is being installed underground. It'll have only enough power to supply 1 or 2 connections, any unauthorized excess use would cause it to trip meaning no more irrigation.

One engineer neighbor told me that his boss (executive engineer" was threatened by district collector to start the electricity connection to an influential village or face jail time for causing law and order problems with potential for violence.

There are ways to control these losses but it'll cost money and take time. MP govt is working towards full 24hrs electricity for all by january 2013. In smaller twon there was only 2 Hrs black out last month.

These reforms and excellent work by chief minister of MP, by empowering and pushing babus into field has yielded 18% growth in agriculture this year. I have never seen farmers this happy before, third term for Sivraj Singh is certain.

There are still power outages in smaller towns, but they aren't as long and power comes back up sooner. Also, the frequency of outage is less. What I did notice in MP is that there are more outages after 9PM, which is unusual. Perhaps it may have to do with billing rates.
The power situation in MP is much better than UP, Haryana, and NCR.
MP is now only second to Punjab in wheat production. Depending on rains, MP may meet or exceed Punjab in wheat production this year.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 02 Aug 2012 18:07

Theo_Fidel wrote:Robur has a 3-ton unit that is available through Robur India. Be advised that even though the technology is quite old the 5 ton and smaller units are very high technology and very new. I would suggest waiting for 2-3 years for the technology to mellow a little. In the meantime all commecial buildings should switch to the technology IMO.

I believe Yazaki has one as well.

Singha will be pleased to know that several small German shops are producing them and steadily improving performance every year. One day it will burst forth and wipe out the competition... ..until the Chinese get hold of it.

Theo
This is offtrack, but still. You truly amaze me looking at the range of subjects on which you post. I am tempted to ask a la Bertie Wooster, " Jeeves, is there anything you do not know?" and Jeeves replies, " I could not say sir".
Keep going.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Aug 2012 23:27

chaanakya wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:are we sure that there was no service denial attack on the grid?
Oh yes, Grid failure is sort of DOS . Request for service beyond grid capacity causes sevrer ( GRID) to trip. UP Haryana etc are deemed hackers here.

i have my doubts about this situation... i am sure someone has been poking around

negi · Post by **negi** » 03 Aug 2012 00:20

Could also be related to bad Monsoons this year; forcing farmers to overdraw than usual.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 03 Aug 2012 01:27

This seems to be the case...

Grid collapse: Poor load management, not overdrawing, to blame?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Aug 2012 02:44

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/10-solar-pr ... blackouts/
While the massive blackouts in India are focusing attention on the opportunities for clean power in India, the country already has many solar projects under way. Here are some of the most notable and promising efforts

). Solar-power microgrid service in rural villages: Startup Mera Gao Power wants to have a total of 70 villages electrified with its solar panels, cell phone charging service, and distribution lines by the end of 2012. Co-founders Jaisinghani and Brian Shaad have been working on these projects for about two years, and their business innovation was to sell the solar power as a service. One microgrid system that can electrify about 50 households costs $1,200 and includes two solar panels, two batteries and four distribution lines. The villages agree to have the system installed and then households in the villages pay about 25 rupees per week for the service (the cost of kerosene for lanterns can be around 30 rupees per week). The system starts to pay for itself after a certain period of time.2). One of India’s first megawatt-scale rooftop solar projects: Azure Power, a startup run by entrepreneur Inderpreet Wadhwa, is developing a project that puts solar panels on dozens of rooftops and shares revenues from power sales with the building owners. Five-year-old Azure is venture capital backed and engineers, builds and operates its own power projects and sells the electricity to utilities. Most of the at least 56 MW worth of solar projects that Azure has built are ground-mounted projects, but more recently Azure won this deal to build part of a huge rooftop system in the Gujarat state government. Azure plans to 600 MW of solar in Gujarat: The Indian state of Gujarat in April threw a big party to celebrate the commissioning of 600 MW of solar energy projects over a year. Much of that occurred (214 MW) from a solar park in the Patan district. But over 50 companies have built solar power projects in Gujarat, including SunEdison, Tata Power, Lanco Solar, Moser Baer, Adani Enterprises and GMR Gujarat Solar Power.install solar panels on over 60 rooftops and complete the project by March 2013.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 25 Sep 2012 05:43

State power distributors to get Rs 2-lakh crore bailout.

The Government today cleared the bailout of debt ridden State Electricity Distribution Boards (Discoms).

The Cabinet Committee on Economic Affairs (CCEA) approved the package, called ‘Financial Restructuring of Discoms’, of nearly Rs 2-lakh crore. The plan for restructuring the debt of Discoms has been in the works for some time now.

The accumulated losses of the State power distribution companies (Discoms) are estimated at Rs 1.9-lakh crore as on March 31, 2011.

The scheme contains various measures that the Discoms/State governments need to take for achieving the financial turnaround of the utilities by restructuring their debt through a transitional finance mechanism of the Central Government. The scheme will take effect as soon as it is notified and will remain open up to December 31, unless extended by the Centre.

Under the scheme, half of the outstanding short-term liabilities up to March 31, 2012, is to be taken over by State governments. First, these will be converted into bonds, which will be issued to participating lenders. The bonds will have State government guarantee, but not get SLR status.

In the second stage, State governments will take over the liabilities of Discoms in the next 2-5 years. This will be done through special securities.

The balance 50 per cent of the short-term loans will be restructured. This will be done by rescheduling loans and providing moratorium on the principal. The best possible terms will be offered to ensure viability of the effort.

The scheme also mandates measurable action by the Discoms or the State governments. This is to improve the performance of the distribution utilities. Two committees, one at the Centre and the other at the State level, will monitor the turnaround plan.

Commenting on the decision, Director-General of Association of Power Producers Ashok Khurana said, “We welcome the move as it is a step in the positive direction. The loss reduction and tariff increase plans would need to be monitored very strictly so that utilities are able to break-even in next three-four years and in the interim they need to be provided adequate transition finance.”

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 19 Oct 2012 17:18

Bit dated news.

Delhiites to get LED’s at never before prices

Delhiites can now experience ‘smart lighting’ at never before prices. BSES Rajdhani Power Limited (BRPL)’s new initiative towards energy conservation, gives Delhiites an opportunity to buy high-quality LED bulbs at never-before prices. For the initiative, BRPL has tied-up with Sahasra Electronics, a leading exporter and supplier of LED products to global lighting majors, including Philips and Tyco Electronics.

Scheme Dynamics

Explaining the dynamics of the scheme, a BRPL official said “This unique scheme is open to all Delhiites and not just restricted to BRPL customers. Any Delhiite, keen to buy the premium LED products can do so at never before prices - starting at unbelievable price Rs 399/ for a 7-watt LED, which is equivalent to a 60 Watt Incandescent Bulb and a 15 watt CFL. Also available as part of the scheme are attractively priced LED tube lights and spot lights.

http://www.bsesdelhi.com/new/july2012/P ... _2012.html

Market price for a 7 watt LED is arond 700 INR. Anyone availed the offer?

Cheers....

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Nov 2012 00:49

Interesting chart. Note China's economical Coal decline begins in 2020. Meaning all the other coal costs more in energy and effort to get out of the ground than it releases. Typically this is about 2/3 of world coal.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Nov 2012 00:51

Interesting chart. Note China's economical Coal decline begins in 2020. Meaning all the other coal costs more in energy and effort to get out of the ground than it releases. Typically this is about 2/3 of world coal.

Also 90% of world coal is in 6 countries. USA, Russia, China, India, Australia and South Africa.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 27 Nov 2012 14:06

theor any comments on "passively" efficient buildings? imho litt/progress in US on energy efficiency is ass backwards. first build inefficient buildings then build rube goldberg devices to make them efficient post-fact. oirope is slightly better in this regard. there are moving to make better buildings to begin with.

the crazy thing is good buildings are said to be "passive". new tech retrofits are said to be "active".

anywho, some interesting 'options' models are coming out of all this. utilities are vying for top talent that know how to that type of analysis. problem is they are competing with wall street for talent.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Dec 2012 22:59

Gujarat's dual power distribution model catches Centre's fancy.

he government is working on a proposal to replicate Gujarat’s “dual distribution model” in the power sector across Indian states. The idea is to cut down losses from selling subsidised electricity to farmers and bring their financially-ill distribution utilities to profitability.

In the Gujarat model, dual distribution lines were installed to supply power based on paying capacity of the consumers. The first line provided continuous electricity at a much higher rate, whereas the second line aimed at farmers supplied electricity for limited period at a subsidised rate. Gujarat was not only able to cut down the loss, but was able to report profit after they implemented dual distribution lines.

The strategy helped Gujarat Urja Vikas Nigam Ltd (GUVNL) — the holding company formed after the unbundling of the State Electricity Board (SEB) in 2003 — to shift its financial position from a loss of Rs 1,932 crore in 2003-2004 to a profit of above Rs 124 crore in 2007-08, the first year of the eleventh Plan period. Since then, profits have jumped five times to Rs 642 crore over five years ended March 12.

“Given the benefits, there is a consensus in the Forum of Regulators (FoR) to replicate the model for separation of agricultural feeders (transmission lines) across states. The forum has been constantly discussing this proposal to insist upon states. If other states were to adopt the same approach, consumers will be able to get reliable power with no power outage and distribution utilities could return to profits thereby enabling investment in future projects,” a member of the Central Electricity Regulatory Commission (CERC) told Business Standard. FoR is a representative body of the state electricity regulatory commissions headed by CERC Chairman Pramod Deo. The member also informed that the FoR had recently commissioned a study on the matter.

He also said, as part of the initiative, the government is going to press for adequate metering of power supplied to the farming community. “This will also help us in identifying where exactly is the subsidy for farmers going. Over a period of time, cross-subsidy should go away and all users, at least rich farmers, have to pay at least the production cost of power,” he said.

Supply of free or subsidised power to farmers, a politically sensitive issue, has resulted in losses for state power suppliers as cost of production increased because of rising fuel costs (coal and natural gas).

In addition, industries are often forced to pay much higher to compensate for subsidy loss. In a bid to cut down transmission losses and optimize the distribution of power in the state in 2006, Gujarat had bi-furcated the rural supply to give farmers an eight-hour supply at a cheaper rate for irrigation on a three-phase line and rural households were given 24-hour reliable power on a single-phase line.

This separation of agricultural feeders which use heavy loads of upto 10-15 Horse Power (HP) capacity for running pumps from domestic supply, resulted in additional revenue for the state from increase in duration of power supply to rural households apart from round-the-clock supply of power to consumers. The three-phase line for irrigation also helped in saving power, as the high-current lines trip in case illegal hooking takes place anywhere in the area.

India’s state discoms had accumulated losses of Rs 2.4 lakh crore on March 2011. This was the direct result of the gap between average revenue realised and the cost of supply.

With input cost rising at the back of fuel charges and revenue coming under constraints due to stagnant tariffs, the gap rose to 145 paise a unit (kilowatt per hour) in 2009-10 from 76 paise in 1998-99.

The combined debt of discoms reached Rs 1.9 lakh crore in March as more and more distributors opted for loans to meet even operational costs. The government had to announce a historic financial restructuring package for bleeding discoms recently.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 Dec 2012 21:58

Looks like congress is as usual ignoring state governments under opposition CMs

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/jayal ... ech-310271

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 12 Jan 2013 05:49

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 299350.ece

Lesser duration of power cuts comes as a relief for other parts of State

These days, electricity consumers in parts of the State other than Chennai have some respite from the acute power shortage, as the duration of load shedding has gone down considerably.

What was 12 hours to 14 hours a day three months ago is now seven to eight hours. In parts of Coimbatore, the duration is even lesser – around five hours. Significantly, the consumers are being subjected to less load shedding in the night.

In October, they had to endure six-hour-long load shedding between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m., whereas it is three hours now experiencing, according to a source.

The decrease in the duration of load shedding has come at a time even as the authorities are maintaining 12-hour three-phase supply to agriculturists in the Cauvery delta. In addition, the average daily energy consumption is around 210 million units (MU), about 30 MU higher than that of October.

The improvement in the supply position has been attributed to a host of factors. Thermal power plants of the Tamil Nadu Generation and Distribution Corporation (Tangedco) are producing more. On an average, they are generating around 2,500 megawatt (MW), whereas they were producing about 1,800 MW three months ago. The quantum of electricity purchased through power exchanges has gone up. At present, it is in the range of 470 MW to 725 MW. Three months ago, the State was able to get 80 MW to 270 MW.

Since the middle of December, 150 MW is being procured from the Grid Corporation of Odisha (Gridco) during 5 a.m. to 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. to midnight.

This arrangement will go on till March 31. Besides, by participating in an e-bidding, the Tangedco has been able to secure up to 430 MW capacity of inter-regional transmission for February.

The possibility is being explored to buy additional power from co-generation plant owners, using coal, during crushing and non-crushing seasons.

The authorities have tied-up with a private power producer whose plant in Saminatham of Tuticorin district is about to be commissioned. This will enable the supply of 150 MW.

The source says that an additional unit of 600 MW at the Mettur Thermal Power Station is expected to generate power in 10 days. Initially, 400 MW will be produced. One such unit at North Chennai Thermal Power Station is expected to generate around 250 MW by the end of this month.

As regards the Vallur project, jointly implemented by the Tangedco and NTPC, the first unit of 500 MW, which is generating 300 MW on an average, will run on full load by January end.

Another unit of 500 MW is expected to commence production next month with about 300 MW.

In the case of Vallur, the share of Tamil Nadu from each unit is about 350 MW when the unit produces to its capacity.

If these plans fructify, the State will get at least 1,000 MW by the beginning of March. As of now, the State is able to meet its demand to the tune of 9,500 MW.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 12 Jan 2013 14:05

Vipul wrote:Gujarat's dual power distribution model catches Centre's fancy.

In the Gujarat model, dual distribution lines were installed to supply power based on paying capacity of the consumers. The first line provided continuous electricity at a much higher rate, whereas the second line aimed at farmers supplied electricity for limited period at a subsidised rate.

Having two sets of distribution lines sounds really expensive. How were they able to afford it? Or is this a misinformed journalist?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Feb 2013 21:21

India's power generation grew by 5.2% in December 2012

Sushma U N, TNN | Feb 1, 2013, 03.36PM IST

CHENNAI: India's power generation grew by 5.2 from 73.3 billion units in December 2011 to 77.1 billion units in December 2012, according to the data released by Central Electricity Authority (CEA).

The growth in power generation was mainly driven by higher generation from thermal power plants, which contribute over 80% to the country's power generation.

In December 2012, thermal power generation increased by 7.3% over the previous year to 67.8 billion units. During the month, coal-based power generation rose by 13.1%.

Gas-based generation, however, fell by 36.6, the thirteenth month in a row in which the gas-based generation fell. Shortage of natural gas impacted the performance of gas-based power plants.

Hydel power generation continued its downward trend, falling by 10.1 to 6.6 billion units in December 2012.

During the month, major hydel power generating states namely, Jammu & Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand reported around 3% growth in hydel power generation.

However, this was not sufficient to offset the steep fall in generation reported by Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu.

In December, hydel power generation in Karnataka fell by 28.2%, whereas that in Tamil Nadu and Kerala declined by 50-60%.

Nuclear power stations in India generated 2.7 billion units of power in December 2012, a mere 0.7% higher compared to a year ago, the report said.

Lower output from Rajasthan Atomic power station (RAPS) and delay in commissioning of Kudankulam nuclear power project resulted in a slower growth in nuclear power generation.

According to the report, growth in power generation is expected to pick-up in the March 2013 quarter. Higher availability of coal, improvement in hydel power generation and completion of unit 1 of Kudankulam power plant will push total power generation upwards.

In 2012-13 as a whole, total power generation is expected to grow by 6%, the report said.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 19 Mar 2013 11:28

Gujarat on top, Uttar Pradesh at bottom of discoms ratings list

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 054321.cms

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 27 Mar 2013 12:23

The power situation in Tamil Nadu is unbelievable. For all the mocking of China's over investment, severe capacity constraints like this are far worse.

http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/tam ... 44664.ece/

12 hour power cuts in most of the state. And Chennai with "just" two hours of power cuts every day is considered lucky. This is the situation in one of the most industrialized states in India,
not traditional whipping boys like UP or Bihar.

Truly sad that India isn't able to provide such basic public services in 2013 in one of its most advanced states. This hits small businesses and entrepreneurs the most, and the effects will be long lasting.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 04 Apr 2013 16:12

bound to happen, with so many IT companies and manufacturing companies, they didnt bother to invest in power before welcoming the them

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Apr 2013 16:31

ANd when is the mythical Kudakundalam I and II with 1000MW each becoming operational? Me thinks UPA will not allow them to be operational before the summer ends. TN share in Central Power allocation (in reality not on books) decreased tremendraously in June 2011 when the State Government changed.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 04 Apr 2013 18:29

Aditya_V wrote:ANd when is the mythical Kudakundalam I and II with 1000MW each becoming operational? Me thinks UPA will not allow them to be operational before the summer ends. TN share in Central Power allocation (in reality not on books) decreased tremendraously in June 2011 when the State Government changed.

The local "hafta" goons in cahoots with the EJ groups are still holding the plant to ransom. Recent threats to residential areas of the nuclear plant workers was also reported. Time to implement shoot on sight in the nuclear plan vicinity and start the damn thing!

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 08 Apr 2013 09:07

Increasingly states are not counting on domestic coal and plan to import what is needed.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 592631.ece

In February last year, Chief Minister Jayalalithaa announced the termination of the understanding with the BHEL and said the project would be taken up as a State-sector project. The Tangedco has bought the share of the BHEL by paying about Rs. 54 crore. In view of uncertainty over getting linkage for domestic coal, the State government has decided that imported coal be used essentially for the project.

Later this week, the Tangedco is also expected to float bids for another 1,320-MW project, called Ennore Special Economic Zone (SEZ) Thermal Power Project. As in the case of Udangudi, this will also be implemented, using imported coal. The proposed plant will come up on the site that was once used as an ash dyke for the North Chennai Thermal Power Station.

manish · Post by **manish** » 08 Apr 2013 10:23

Theo_Fidel wrote:Increasingly states are not counting on domestic coal and plan to import what is needed.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 592631.ece

In February last year, Chief Minister Jayalalithaa announced the termination of the understanding with the BHEL and said the project would be taken up as a State-sector project. The Tangedco has bought the share of the BHEL by paying about Rs. 54 crore. In view of uncertainty over getting linkage for domestic coal, the State government has decided that imported coal be used essentially for the project.

Later this week, the Tangedco is also expected to float bids for another 1,320-MW project, called Ennore Special Economic Zone (SEZ) Thermal Power Project. As in the case of Udangudi, this will also be implemented, using imported coal. The proposed plant will come up on the site that was once used as an ash dyke for the North Chennai Thermal Power Station.

Look at the bolded part - BHEL was asked to walk out of the project which was otherwise conceived as a JV from the get-go. Which of course allows the state to straightaway opt for non-BHEL supplier for the (very expensive and very lucrative) BTG package.

Not that it is a bad thing, but it certainly gives a chance for some fledgling (and struggling) pvt sector suppliers to finally get a toehold in the market - for eg. the one promoted by an eminent industrialist who had a publicly announced meeting with JJ in....February last year

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Apr 2013 09:28

BHEL-NTPC-IGCAR effort to boost efficiency of power plants.

As clean coal technologies go, the ‘advanced ultra super critical’ is cutting edge. Thermal power plants based on this technology burn a lot less coal.

Now a milestone (though an early one) has been crossed with public sector power equipment major BHEL having recently submitted the ‘project design memorandum’ for an 800 MW pilot project based on this technology to the office of the Principal Scientific Adviser, Government of India. The memorandum basically sets out the design for the plant — a crucial input — and details of costs.

Driven by the government’s National Mission for Technology, the Advanced Ultra Super Critical (AUSC) project, which could cost well over Rs 6,000 crore, will be put up by a joint venture of BHEL, NTPC and the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR).

A senior official of BHEL told Business Line that the company has sought funding of Rs 1,020 crore to fund the ‘pre-project R&D expenses’. The project, expected to be completed in 2018, is likely to come up at the NTPC’s Dadri complex in Uttar Pradesh.

The year 2018 may sound far away, but the time to fruition is understandable, given the technology weight and the economic significance of the project.

The Advanced Ultra Super Critical technology is only now being developed — anywhere in the world.

The BHEL-NTPC-IGCAR combine wants to work at pressure levels of 310 Bar and temperature of 710 degrees Celsius. This is very high on both counts — comparatively, conventional super-critical projects in India operate at about 250 Bar and 590 degrees Celsius.

Basically, when temperature and pressure rise, the system’s efficiency increases, and it consumes less coal. A 4,000 MW advanced ultra mega power project, built with this technology, will save 4 million tonnes of coal a year.

The challenge lies in finding the material that can withstand such high pressure and temperature. This calls for making an alloy steel that has about 70 per cent nickel.

Sources said the Hyderabad-based public sector Misra Dhatu Nigam Ltd (Midhani) has developed the material, tubes made of which are to be tested in NTPC’s 210 MW unit in Dadri, Uttar Pradesh.

Clean coal technologies are significant to India because coal is the country’s biggest energy resource. India has 293 billion tonnes of coal still underground — the annual consumption today is about half a billion tonnes.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 11 Apr 2013 22:22

The next cutting edge move is from the Rankine cycle to the Brayton cycle using CO2. Efficiencies approaching 55% are possible. This is what many equipment manufacturers and designers are focused on.

vina · Post by **vina** » 12 Apr 2013 11:43

The next cutting edge move is from the Rankine cycle to the Brayton cycle using CO2. Efficiencies approaching 55% are possible. This is what many equipment manufacturers and designers are focused on

.
The future is already here in terms of combined cycles today which combine a Brayton (gas turbine) and steam turbine, giving higher thermodynamic efficiency of either one alone!

Yes, of course, any means to increase the efficiency of Brayton and/or Rankine cycle is great, but you need to go combined cycle to get max bang for the buck.

So really instead we should go for Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle. Even if those have a higher capital cost than a Chinese style, Build Crap, Burn Crap, Don't Give A Crap, kind of coal burning stuff, we can cut down the massive amount of mining, transport and other infra and of course pollution and running cost that will be needed if we build out our future power (coal burning) infra with this kind of tech (along with ultra critical boilers and very high efficiency brayton turbines).

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 12 Apr 2013 20:32

vina wrote:The future is already here in terms of combined cycles today which combine a Brayton (gas turbine) and steam turbine, giving higher thermodynamic efficiency of either one alone!

Yes, of course, any means to increase the efficiency of Brayton and/or Rankine cycle is great, but you need to go combined cycle to get max bang for the buck.

So really instead we should go for Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle. Even if those have a higher capital cost than a Chinese style, Build Crap, Burn Crap, Don't Give A Crap, kind of coal burning stuff, we can cut down the massive amount of mining, transport and other infra and of course pollution and running cost that will be needed if we build out our future power (coal burning) infra with this kind of tech (along with ultra critical boilers and very high efficiency brayton turbines).

Of course you are right. The Brayton cycle already exists in CCGT power plants. Efficiencies north of 50% are routinely churned out. The low temperature end is well understood and conventional but…

The CO2 super critical fluid turbine is a completely different animal however. It like running a liquid trough a turbine in terms of the densities being used. For instance test platforms use CO2 at densities of 0.1 kg/liter type densities which is closer to water than to gas. Imagine running water through a turbine and you have an idea of what the Brayton cycle looks like with S-CO2!! The high densities also mean very small form factor. Some calculations indicate that the high-temperature component of a 100MW turbine would be roughly 16” in diameter and have 3 blade stages with total length of 10 feet or so running at 30,000 rpm. The entire thing would comfortably fit inside your kitchen! In fact this compact size has been a key engineering challenge, how to channel that much energy through such a small space.

The key idea behind a S-CO2 Brayton cycle is that the working fluid is NOT a combustion source. This means in principle the cycle is now open to ALL fuel sources. All the way from Solar Thermal to Coal to Gas to HT Nuclear as well. All running at 50%-55% efficiencies so the efficiencies of CCGT are now available to almost all fuel sources that can generate the temperature required. Inlet temperature of only 30C (Yes that is correct, no zeros missing) is required for the fluid at the low end but higher temperature will of course mean better efficiencies. Temperatures of up to 1200c have been proposed.

BTW last year 3 competing teams started construction on 10-20MW demonstration semi-commercial power plants. We will have to see who hits the commercial market first with the right combination equipment to work.

From India’s point of view, we used about 500 Million tons of coal from all sources for thermal power production. A S-CO@ brayton cycle turbine would mean that we could run roughly 350,000 mwhr of installed S-CO2 capacity with that coal. This is about 60% more than we do at present. It would be a true game changer not just an incremental move.

Here is a manufacturer I have worked with. of course this is not the full cycle but you get the idea. BTW the product rep told me that they are working on a 7.5MW and 20MW units that will be roughly 4'-8' larger than this unit.
http://www.echogen.com/products/#

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 13 Apr 2013 10:35

vina wrote:
The future is already here in terms of combined cycles today which combine a Brayton (gas turbine) and steam turbine, giving higher thermodynamic efficiency of either one alone!

Yes, of course, any means to increase the efficiency of Brayton and/or Rankine cycle is great, but you need to go combined cycle to get max bang for the buck.

So really instead we should go for Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle. Even if those have a higher capital cost than a Chinese style, Build Crap, Burn Crap, Don't Give A Crap, kind of coal burning stuff, we can cut down the massive amount of mining, transport and other infra and of course pollution and running cost that will be needed if we build out our future power (coal burning) infra with this kind of tech (along with ultra critical boilers and very high efficiency brayton turbines).

That is very good suggestion though requires higher capex. But India should certainly go for such technologies if it is well established. According to Wiki, DOE has funded three pilot projects in US. Are there any such commercial plants outside US??

That is important in view of the fact that India would need more than 700GW of new capacity installation besides replacement of old plants. CCT with Ultra Super Critical plants seems a viable option and is being tried out here. There are few combined cycle plants using gas but no IGCC so far.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 13 Apr 2013 10:44

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Here is a manufacturer I have worked with. of course this is not the full cycle but you get the idea. BTW the product rep told me that they are working on a 7.5MW and 20MW units that will be roughly 4'-8' larger than this unit.
http://www.echogen.com/products/#

theo garu
Do you have any idea about the cost? This seems to be in USA. Any one in India.
I am interested in WHR generating power for Industry and to incetivise it.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 14 Apr 2013 10:15

Chaanakya,

It is not available for commercial purchase at the moment. It only used for demonstration and testing right now. We had a GOTUS grant and tax benefit we could use on a project and I was brought in to build the foundations for the unit.

If you are looking for just waste heat recovery I would recommend the many Adsorption based HVAC chiller units out there. I had posted earlier on the German unit that is available in India from Robur. I know a unit installed that is running on 83c waste water!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 14 Apr 2013 14:34

Thats really sad.
Yes I remember about robur.
http://www.robur.com/

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 15 Apr 2013 04:15

This is really hi-end technology so it is still a few years from maturation. But it is coming. The only sad part is that this research is not happening in desh.

Actually I'm surprised how quickly it is coming along. The aim is to completely eliminate the steam turbine cycle. The killer app is marrying S-CO2 technology to CSP.
In CSP units efficiency boosts of 50% or more are expected, thus pushing CSP above 20%-22% efficiency. This would push CSP into the cheaper than new coal range.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Apr 2013 10:20

Theo_Fidel wrote:This is really hi-end technology so it is still a few years from maturation. But it is coming. The only sad part is that this research is not happening in desh.

Actually I'm surprised how quickly it is coming along. The aim is to completely eliminate the steam turbine cycle. The killer app is marrying S-CO2 technology to CSP.
In CSP units efficiency boosts of 50% or more are expected, thus pushing CSP above 20%-22% efficiency. This would push CSP into the cheaper than new coal range.

Well I was thinking on the same line.