Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[member_20317]

Re. Bheeshma vs Arjun debate.

Does is have to be a Only this or only that choice. Is there no way to convince IA to host 2 different tanks at the same time. Make Bheeshma the MBT and take Arjun in the same spirit as they would rather take T-72, only a different role. A role that demands greater degree of punishment. The mixed use has been tried in the excercises. All of BRF loved it. Did it not work out in the excercise?

I would fear my opponent if he has an answer for whatever the degree of punishment I throw at him. Would it be unreasonable to imagine the same for Pakis.

[alexis]

^^^^@Pratyush,
As long as u have Natashas, GSQRs are irrelevant!!!

[nelson]

Here they are, side by side...

Indian Army Armoured Corps

[Sanku]

Re. Bheeshma vs Arjun debate.

Does is have to be a Only this or only that choice. Is there no way to convince IA to host 2 different tanks at the same time. Make Bheeshma the MBT and take Arjun in the same spirit as they would rather take T-72, only a different role. A role that demands greater degree of punishment. The mixed use has been tried in the excercises. All of BRF loved it. Did it not work out in the excercise?

I would fear my opponent if he has an answer for whatever the degree of punishment I throw at him. Would it be unreasonable to imagine the same for Pakis.

ravi_g garu, as far I know, that has always been the plan, this dates back to the re-armament drive started by NDA (after the wasted 90s) -- the minister of State for defence (a lady -- I think a minor Royal from Punjab) had said this on the floor of the house even.

[NRao]

Re. Bheeshma vs Arjun debate.

Does is have to be a Only this or only that choice. Is there no way to convince IA to host 2 different tanks at the same time. Make Bheeshma the MBT and take Arjun in the same spirit as they would rather take T-72, only a different role. A role that demands greater degree of punishment. The mixed use has been tried in the excercises. All of BRF loved it. Did it not work out in the excercise?

I would fear my opponent if he has an answer for whatever the degree of punishment I throw at him. Would it be unreasonable to imagine the same for Pakis.

Perhaps you have not followed the debate. Having said that I am relatively new to it too.

The argument goes that the T-90 was selected because there was pressure to get a good tank and there was no (real?) alternative - recall there was no Arjun in those days.

well, today there is an Arjun. An Arjun that is deemed to be better than the T-90. So why even the question about another product when the one you make at home is the best? This is and should not be taken as a -ve observation on the Russian tank/s. They have done their jobs. Now move on to the next best phase.

Like I said earlier, the best way out is a an when Arjuns become available move the T-90s into the T-72 roles and move the T-72 to the T-54 role/s and replace the T-90 with the Arjun till the T-90 are phased out. So, the strike forces would get the ARjuns and the T-90 from the strike forces are moved to the Pivots, etc, etc, etc.

TODAY, based on what I can read, I just see no reason to share the stage with the Russian tanks - the reason is simple: Arjun being the best, sharing - to me - would mean making a link in the chain weak. This is not a -ve vote for the Russian as much as a +ve vote for the Arjun. And rightfully so.

[amit]

Re. Bheeshma vs Arjun debate.

Does is have to be a Only this or only that choice. Is there no way to convince IA to host 2 different tanks at the same time. Make Bheeshma the MBT and take Arjun in the same spirit as they would rather take T-72, only a different role. A role that demands greater degree of punishment. The mixed use has been tried in the excercises. All of BRF loved it. Did it not work out in the excercise?

I would fear my opponent if he has an answer for whatever the degree of punishment I throw at him. Would it be unreasonable to imagine the same for Pakis.

Ravi ji,

What you say is not only reasonable but doable also.

However we need to go by data points. And as of today the data points suggest that the Army had no plans to buy any further Arjuns save for the figure we've seen. And yet we get reports of plans to buy more T90s for the North East.

What can one make of that?

[member_20317]

The point about the commitment levels, is well taken. The organizational inertia that has been pointed out earlier explains it well.

NRao ji is partly right in that I am not a regular to the debate. Never got emotionally involved to the degree that would force me into it.

Following are, what I believe could be some of the driving considerations for the under-commitment by IA:

1) Logistics operations - a lighter tank has makes a lighter usage of everything (consumables). Its not merely about the breadth of the trucking and rail resources which in itself is a daunting consideration. The differential in fuel consumption, full load of ready to fire rounds, number of crew to be trained, grease-tail to servicing issues.

2) Gravy train - a real consideration (let us keep the morals out of it for the time being)

3) Ordering costs:
Here is a link to site of P. Chacko Joseph ji for a 2007 article.
http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-out ... z2PsIPK3ur

A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised.

I began looking for the cost differentials and chanced upon this old comparison. Since then the cost of T-90 has gone up to around 28 Cr per unit and Arjun Mk-1 is reported by dhimmi media as 34 Crores per unit. The T-72 upgraded cost is something like 14 Crore. For an army that fields 4000+ tanks this calls for some budgeting constraints too which I believe would force IA to just keep up the 124-350 order conundrum which they perhaps treat as the Economic Order Quantity with a few years gap between orders. The 500 unit run that is being asked for is achievable and the cost structure would force IA to field a mixed resource force structure.

Note the clear gap in production costs has remained. Which is justifiable from the product PoV but the justification is not relevant from the deployment PoV, which is looking at different considerations. The cost issue remains relevant for deployment considerations.

4) An unclear attitude of the Defence ministry which is on record for having claimed all 3 (T-90, Arjun and T-72) as Main Battle Tanks and has sent mixed signals for tank development.

5) The opponent's force structure and likely response by IA. Which is still not clear to us. Cold start is a recent introduction in the debate and other sides are yet to articulate their response which will keep our counter response unclear as well. Do we need a T-34 kind of development cycle or a Tiger type of development?

The situation appears more like a confused+vested interactions but no clear articulation of the vision. IA may be only one part of the equation.

Note none of these are technical considerations which is what BRF guys like the most. You see if the debate is followed here on BRF any nubie would believe that it is an either/or debate with fight between only DRDO (Arjun) and IA (T-90) and only production/tech issues would decide the force structure.

See the crux of my point is IA like DRDO has very different (compared to other simpler forces in our neighbourhood) and demanding planning constraints.

[SaiK]

Actually, we don't need the MBTs at all. We only need all-round BTs onlee. Future is more of getting explosives delivered from UCAVs and from helos/air. So, the front-end BTs should be able to do back-end BTs as well. More protection, and plus more firepower... especially, when inside cities like lahore and pindies or if it could cross the himalayas way past AP regime NE direction[actually, needs more of the Tank-Ex or Arjun Mk.3/<50 tonner]/reduced weight by 3 seat version should work for IA, and they should gladly accept it as their experiences are with it. If the only complain is weight, then I say, deliver Mk3/50t., but review/hold all orders on T90s - 1500 tanks is not necessary and needs now.

[Sanku]

See the crux of my point is IA like DRDO has very different (compared to other simpler forces in our neighbourhood) and demanding planning constraints.

Great post ravi_g.

[Austin]

ravi_g a different way to look at things , nice post indeed

[NRao]

See the crux of my point is IA like DRDO has very different (compared to other simpler forces in our neighbourhood) and demanding planning constraints.

When has complexities not been there? Even the Greeks and Romans faced them. At their own levels even Panchayats face them.

The issue then boils down to how does one make the proper decision.

I would think (and expect) the IA to model these things - and that should not be difficult in this era. Such models typically do not capture the "gravy" you mention, but are accounted for in some fashion.

They are very, very complex. However, in this particular case, the complexity was far less as long as the Arjun was not in the picture. What we seem to be witnessing is the impact of an increased complexity (mostly political as I see it) because of the introduction of a successful product: Arjun. To think of it it seems like neither the IA nor the MoD were prepared for the situation because the rules they have been used to (perhaps making decision and not being so publicly questioned) did not exist about a decade ago.

But I do not agree that the IA is not prepared to deal with such complexities. India in general has planners coming out of their gills - India pioneered this practice in the democratic world. India does not lack planners, it lacks planning (for a variety of reasons and beyond the scope of this thread).

[NRao]

BTW, the complexities that an institute like the DRDO faces is far different than what a peace time IA faces. A war time IA faces the worst complexities. One really cannot compare the DRDO one to that of a peace time IA. Both are complex, but DRDO, being a research institute too, has a unknown dimension that the IA in peace time does not quiet have.

[nelson]

So DRDO is the latest holy cow. As we saw in some press releases linked today, first 1310 T-90 were ordered before/ in 2001/02. If we miss this timeline and paint IA as the only villain, we will require a time machine to take corrective action. May be DRDO has one in its works!?

[rohitvats]

Please allow me to answer the points raised by you.

The point about the commitment levels, is well taken. The organizational inertia that has been pointed out earlier explains it well. NRao ji is partly right in that I am not a regular to the debate. Never got emotionally involved to the degree that would force me into it.

Following are, what I believe could be some of the driving considerations for the under-commitment by IA:

1) Logistics operations - a lighter tank has makes a lighter usage of everything (consumables). Its not merely about the breadth of the trucking and rail resources which in itself is a daunting consideration. The differential in fuel consumption, full load of ready to fire rounds, number of crew to be trained, grease-tail to servicing issues.

Larger tank (and more weight) does not automatically translate into more consumables in terms of spare parts and associated stuff. Except for consumption of diesel - which would vary by a X+Delta because Arjun has a bigger and more powerful engine.

Each tank comes with its own rate of consumption of spares - The Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) are conducted to ascertain this requirement.

Now, coming to T-90 versus Arjun - While T-90 AUCRT was conducted for 6,000 kms of usage, the Arjun AUCRT was conducted for 8,000 kms. Each and every sub-component has its own life cycle tested during the AUCRT phase.

So, to say that Arjun has more spare part requirement based on its size and weight is not correct.

Same goes for the ammunition carried on board the tank. As far crew requirement is concerned, 4 versus 3 is hardly an argument. How about a simple back of the envelop calculation? If all the 4,000 odd tanks of the IA are Arjun, how many more men will it need?Even assuming 3:1 ratio of those actually employed in armored regiments with Arjun and others up and down the chain, we have requirement for additional 12,000 men.

Before anyone jumps to manpower cost angle - please remember Arjun is not the first 4-man tank in IA's inventory. At one point in time, Vijayanta was India's MBT.

But the even bigger argument is this - Arjun had a 4-man crew because IA WANTED A FOUR MAN CREW. Nothing more and nothing less. So, if now IA and tin-can supporters turn around and tom-tom this argument, they need to remember that they are showing IA top brass in armored corps as complete idiots.

2) Gravy train - a real consideration (let us keep the morals out of it for the time being)

This is the biggest reason, IMO, for the weak contracts signed and executed with the Russians and their implementation.The fvck up with the TOT and gun-barrel issue and ballistic computers is a case in point.

3) Ordering costs:

Here is a link to site of P. Chacko Joseph ji for a 2007 article.

http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-out ... z2PsIPK3ur

A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised.

I began looking for the cost differentials and chanced upon this old comparison. Since then the cost of T-90 has gone up to around 28 Cr per unit and Arjun Mk-1 is reported by dhimmi media as 34 Crores per unit. The T-72 upgraded cost is something like 14 Crore. For an army that fields 4000+ tanks this calls for some budgeting constraints too which I believe would force IA to just keep up the 124-350 order conundrum which they perhaps treat as the Economic Order Quantity with a few years gap between orders. The 500 unit run that is being asked for is achievable and the cost structure would force IA to field a mixed resource force structure.

Note the clear gap in production costs has remained. Which is justifiable from the product PoV but the justification is not relevant from the deployment PoV, which is looking at different considerations. The cost issue remains relevant for deployment considerations.

Ah! yes, the famous cost angle. But this time in new avatar.

Not withstanding the fact that T-90 induction cost in 2002 itself was misleading, the current cost comparison between T-90 and Arjun is flawed. As is the fact that it is this cost consideration which is driving the T-90 induction fetish.

The T-90 tanks in 2006 which were came from Russia costed 11 Crore while OFB assembled tank costed 12 Crore. This cost of production at OFB rose to INR 18 Crore in 2012 - and this was with 70% indigenous components. And this per unit cost when HVF has already produced 300 T-90 tanks for the IA.

However, there is a small catch in the above numbers as well - the cost of Active Protection System was budgeted separately. If you add the above, the per unit cost of the system will rise further.

If I understand correctly, you're quoting the INR 28 Crore per unit cost for planned import of T-90 MS tanks from Russia (INR 10,000 Crore for 354 tanks). So, one can assume that tomorrow when HVF Avadi produces these new T-90 MS tanks, the cost will lie between INR 20-25 Crore per unit.

Now, let us come to the Arjun story? Before we look at that INR 34 Crore per unit number, let us first understand the ground situation:

- How many Arjun tanks have been produced till date?
- Has these production been done in one batch or has the production been happening in fit and start?
- And what impact has this production and development within development cycle - Arjun Mk1 to Arjun Mk1A - had on the efforts to produce stuff by indigenous suppliers?


The fact of the matter is that Arjun production has never been allowed to settle down. After induction of first two regiments, IA asked DRDO to make further improvements on Arjun and develop Arjun Mk 1A. This INR 34 Crore per unit price that you quote is for this Arjun Mk1A - which has lot of imported stuff to cater to IA's requirement.

And mind you, this price for Arjun is only for 118 Arjun Mk1A tanks ordered by the Army. For comparison sake, what could be the per unit price of Arjun Mk1A if IA ordered the same quantity as T-90 MS i.e. 354 tanks? Could India theoretically get another 20% discount on price of stuff which needs to imported for Arjun Mk1A if the order quantity was increased?

If you really want to compare the cost of T-90 MS and Arjun Mk1A, then the question which needs to be asked is this -

What will be per unit cost of both these tanks once the production settles down and especially, in case of Arjun, HVF can start licensed production of major components like the Engine power-pack and drive train.

To top it all, don't forget that because Russians played hard-ball on ballistic computers of FCS of T-90 (which would not fire Indian ammunition), IA ended up importing 66,000 APFSDS rounds from Russia for about USD 500 million. Now, how would you account for this cost associated with imports for Russian tanks? And the 25,000 INVAR missiles for main gun of T-90?

I will answer the remaining part of your post later.

<SNIP>

[NRao]

To top it all, don't forget that because Russians played hard-ball on ballistic computers of FCS of T-90 (which would not fire Indian ammunition), IA ended up importing 66,000 APFSDS rounds from Russia for about USD 500 million. Now, how would you account for this cost associated with imports for Russian tanks? And the 25,000 INVAR missiles for main gun of T-90?

Did India have Indian (or perhaps Israeli?) options for both the APFSDS and INVAR products?

[rohitvats]

^^^India has domestic solutions for APFSDS; I don't know about INVAR. But INVAR missile order could have been placed because those assembled from Russian supplied kits at BDL did not function as per expectation.

[Sanku]

However, there is a small catch in the above numbers as well - the cost of Active Protection System was budgeted separately. If you add the above, the per unit cost of the system will rise further.

IIRC the Shotra/Trophy is still not fitted in right? Same for both Arjun and T 90 (although expression of interests had gone out)

Correct me if I am wrong.

[NRao]

Found the following interesting video on the IA Corp of Engineers. Check out 3:10 onwards.

Each bridge is 12.4 meters, a set of 4 will bride a gap of 52 mteres. Each bridge is deployed in 7 minutes and can take a load of 70 tons.

[amit]

^^^^^

Just goes to show how weak the argument about bridges not being strong enough is. The Army engineers have constructed a number of permanent bridges in the Himalayas, including suspension bridge (according to the video). Surely they can be asked to construct whatever bridges that are deemed necessary in the Punjab region?

[amit]

So DRDO is the latest holy cow. As we saw in some press releases linked today, first 1310 T-90 were ordered before/ in 2001/02. If we miss this timeline and paint IA as the only villain, we will require a time machine to take corrective action. May be DRDO has one in its works!?

Nelson,
You don't need a time machine. Two points:

1) How do you explain the interest in the latest export version of the T90? Especially when the apparent requirement was for a "light tank" for the North East?

2) Is there any indication today that the Army will order any further Arjuns given the fact that all reports seem to indicate an intention to cap requirement at 3000 MBTs?

It seems that Arjun and especially the capabilities (and future potential capabilities that could come from indigenization) that have been built up will wither away, irrespective of whether DRDO is a holy cow or not.

In the end we will again go to Mother Russia, hat in hand and check book open for our next generation tanks.

PS: In places like the US institutions like DRDO are indeed holy cows and they are proud of that. Perhaps that's the difference between us and them.

[SaiK]

uh oh! these bridges then are useless for two T90s at a time!

[Vivek K]

Our corrupt mindset makes treason look normal. Questions like those asked by Nelson should be treated with the contempt they deserve for in its innocence, the question holds the veiled dagger of treason. Letting superior domestic capability wither away in the pursuit of personal gain for the rotten few, causing the likely deaths of fellow Indians owing to being exposed in less armored vehicles will be the death of the nation. That a rotten few can hold so much power to hold the country's national security to ransom will be India's biggest shame in the coming years.

Such arrogant and wanton corruption rears its head in every arms purchase - small arms, multi billion fighter purchases, tanks and other weaponry purchases. History bears witness that no nation became a superpower or any kind of power based on imports from another country. Look at what has happened to once proud Britain - they had to give up the pursuit of an independent foreign policy to another power in return for 50 destroyers and other weapon support during a time of weakness. England is today a has-been, a third rate power that could not even take on Argentina with its obsolete weaponry and had to be "helped". Is that India's fate too?

How many billions will it take to strengthen (I am a practicing Civil engineer) the bridges for the Arjun? Perhaps not even $1 billion. Yet we fritter away national wealth and perhaps sovereignty so that the rotten few can enjoy their holidays ironically in the West (and not in Siberia).

What a cruel joke national security has become for India. The problem is that I cannot find it within me to laugh.

[nelson]

That voice over in IA Corps of Engineers video is incorrect on the military load classification of AM-50 bridge. If the bridge could carry 70 tonnes it would be called AM-70 and not AM-50, I suppose.

http://www.army.cz/scripts/detail.php?id=6074

Some time, parallel to development of Arjun in the late 1990s, a concerted effort to develop bridges of 70 tonne MLC was made by DRDO. Sarvatra Bridge system is part of it. However, AFAIK, the requirements remain unfulfilled. We have gone through this discussion before.

[nelson]

I have issues with the following.

Arjun fits the requirment of terrain that IA would operate in.
Arjun is superior.
Arjun is indigeneous.

I have followed this thread and others on BRF for nearly a decade now. I am unconvinced even after going through the 'threadbare' discussions on Arjun. I have some datapoints and views to share. Fellow posters can ignore them. If the posts look meaningless or amounts to trolling, moderator action is welcome. Namecalling and attributing motives may please be avoided.

[vic]

If army was interested in indigenous products, it would have told DRDO to make three men Arjun, which would have reduced it's weight. It has imposed unrealistic conditions on DRDO, so that Arjun is never inducted.

[NRao]

Nelson,

I am not sure what your point is. Why all these silly arguments?

Some time, parallel to development of Arjun in the late 1990s, a concerted effort to develop bridges of 70 tonne MLC was made by DRDO. Sarvatra Bridge system is part of it. However, AFAIK, the requirements remain unfulfilled. We have gone through this discussion before.

These bridges systems are meant for the IA to use when they CROSS the border into Pakistan, not for use on the Indian side of the border.

(I posted that video as a FYI, and not to suggest that India should use them as a solution to the Arjun predicament. All that stuff was/is new to me.))

Talking of the Indian side there is no excuse for not build a fully functional 100 ton bridge across the canals BY NOW.

This excuse has been going on for ages. While the IA (villain?) has gone on to insist on T-90s in the NE (where that tank is not appropriate - and you have not acknowledged that so far), they have not done the obvious of insisting of better bridges across their own canals, in their own country, for their own tank !!!!!! For the best tank !!!!

Do you know why the IA has not insisted on building proper bridges on the Indian side? ??????

[arnab]

I have issues with the following.

Arjun fits the requirment of terrain that IA would operate in.
Arjun is superior.
Arjun is indigeneous.

I hope such 'issues' will be presented in the context of the T-90/ T-72 tanks that exist with IA currently. Comparing with unobtaniums won't help.

[NRao]

I have issues with the following.

Arjun fits the requirment of terrain that IA would operate in.
Arjun is superior.
Arjun is indigeneous.

I have followed this thread and others on BRF for nearly a decade now. I am unconvinced even after going through the 'threadbare' discussions on Arjun. I have some datapoints and views to share. Fellow posters can ignore them. If the posts look meaningless or amounts to trolling, moderator action is welcome. Namecalling and attributing motives may please be avoided.

Silliness also may please be avoided.

Terrain: The problem identified so far is with:
1) Bridges,
2) Across canals, and
3) In the Punjab (Indian)

Superior: So says the IA. Comparative trials.

Indigenous: What about it? All components that can be made in India are made in India. We have been through this a 100 times. India can make engines, but it is more economical to buy them. So too other things.

Guy you are starting to troll now.

[nelson]

@NRao
Go and read your post containing the video on IA Engineers. IMO, it was not a FYI post.

@pandyan
Corruption in defence deals is a common mode. It be T-90 or Arjun or cement bags or the ballpen that is procured from the local dealer. Percentages vary but it is there, stark reality of this nation.

[NRao]

@NRao
Go and read your post containing the video on IA Engineers. IMO, it was not a FYI post.

The escape clause.

Here is what I said:

Found the following interesting video on the IA Corp of Engineers. Check out 3:10 onwards.

Each bridge is 12.4 meters, a set of 4 will bride a gap of 52 mteres. Each bridge is deployed in 7 minutes and can take a load of 70 tons.

Nothing there suggests that they be used in India.

You still have not addressed my concerns. Any reason why?

_______________________________________

BTW, the canals are not that wide. India can very easily build brand new 100 ton bridges

[nelson]

Arjun is superior to T-90 based on comparative trials:
When did IA say it?

India won ODI world cup 2011. Does it get to become the best team for eternity in all forms of cricket. It is a result of ability and performance of a team at certain point of time for a small duration in cricket matches of a particular kind.

Similarly the comparative trials, however comprehensive in its design and fair in conduct, was not exhaustive in any sense. The results would have depended on many factors apart from the machine and men who operated them. A one off test can not hold proof for all time to come.

Had the results published in media been otherwise, it would have been plainly rejected as having been rigged by IA!

Edited:- ODI world cup year corrected.

[NRao]

OK, enough of this silliness.

Thanks.

[You have made my ignore list.]

[nelson]

@NRao
I was referring to "70 tonne load capacity" of the AM-50 bridges that you said, and pointed out it was incorrect. The bridge in the IA Engineers video is same AM-50 and is the mainstay, as of now.

[Anujan]

We can also play unexpected psychological games on our enemy. They might expect us to come with best equipment, instead we choose inferior equipment and shock them. Doing the unexpected and seizing the initiatives wins wars.

[nelson]

Like one poster Anujan has been playing here, possible.

[amit]

Indigenous: What about it? All components that can be made in India are made in India. We have been through this a 100 times. India can make engines, but it is more economical to buy them. So too other things.

Guy you are starting to troll now.

NRao ji,

Since we are back to silly season with only a change in the dramatist personae let me point out the silliest excuse till now.

Arjun is not 100 per cent indigenous. And so what should we do? We should go buy a 100 per cent foreign tank, never mind the fact that Arjun can be 100 per cent (heck even 400 per cent) indigenous only if its production line is allowed to settle down and economies of scale allow for progressive indigenisation of components. Serves DRDO right for trying to be a holy cow.

I've seen some great examples of Ruskie love in various threads over here. This one makes it to my all time favourite list.

[arnab]

Arjun is superior to T-90 based on comparative trials:
When did IA say it?

India won ODI world cup 2007. Does it get to become the best team for eternity in all forms of cricket. It is a result of ability and performance of a team at certain point of time for a small duration in cricket matches of a particular kind.

Similarly the comparative trials, however comprehensive in its design and fair in conduct, was not exhaustive in any sense. The results would have depended on many factors apart from the machine and men who operated them. A one off test can not hold proof for all time to come.

Had the results published in media been otherwise, it would have been plainly rejected as having been rigged by IA!

Sorry Nelson ji, is this going to be the quality of your strawmen (sorry - issues)? Incidentally India won the T20-20 in 2007 and the ODI WC in 2011. One could make this argument for any comparitive trials including the MMRCA. Besides, considering that the IA has been operating T90s for far longer than Arjun. If anything, the biases would favour the T90

[pradeepe]

Man, this doesnt end. Such spirited defence of the t-90 tincans is amazing. Who would have thunk this would still be going on even after getting its ass handed back (not showing up at a scheduled race is actually considered worse)

[SaiK]

so who would say if IA goes for all in all T90s, and IA will win all wars against anyone? same analysis one would get by asking if India wins world cup, it does not make it the best team. Again, it T90s get into IA, it does not mean it is the best tank as well. so is the argument that M1A with the khans, does not make it the best tank.

This has gone way out of both thread logistics, and logic.

[NRao]

I think we should start "Operation Sarvatr".

Get private funds to rebuild these bridges.

I doubt if these bridges are that wide to pose a real problem.