LCA News and Discussions

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 01 Apr 2013 11:20

Want to share a little event from my life. It was 2 decades ago, i was working in Oregon, USA and got wind that a leading international aircraft magazine was doing a cover story on LCA. At that time very little details was available in public domain. I roamed around in various public libraries to get a hold of a copy of that mag and finally landed my hands on a copy and boy I was so delighted and spent hours going over it again and again. At that time it seemed mission impossible that LCA would enter active service but deep in my heart i wished so and kept following the LCA story for 20 years and that dream is finally coming true. Words cannot express my feeling at this time but thanks to all those involved in making my and the countries dream come true.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 01 Apr 2013 12:18

Congrats to ADA/HAL!

Now LSP-6 needs to fly with improved AoA and "all is well"

mody · Post by **mody** » 01 Apr 2013 12:51

Seems like IOC-II in June-July timeframe is definitely on the cards. Hope to hear the announcement for Series Production of first batch of 20 LCA to start from August-September 2013 timeframe.
Hopefully FOC can be achieved by Mid 2014 time. AoA.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 01 Apr 2013 16:02

LCA navy is on the line

http://idrw.org/?p=20247#more-20247

The LCA Navy, which has been on the ground for many months now since a short spate of just four flights starting in April last year, could take to the skies again later this year with major modifications underway to the platform’s landing gear, environment control system, fuel system, lightning protection, water ingress proofing etc.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Apr 2013 20:22

Official production figures for Mk-1 is 8 per year.It will be a miracle if we have more than 60 by 2020,as Mk-2 is nowhere on the horizon.
Curiously,the NLCA which some time ago was beset with major problems,seems from the report to be making a comeback.If it is perfected even by 2015,we could see 2 sqds. of NLCAs serving aboard the VIK and IAC-1 (when it evetually arrives!) by 2020. Is this because of the better "focus" on projects by the IN?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Apr 2013 20:48

Aditya_V wrote:After LSP-8, will HAL start producing the production standard aircraft or does that have to wait for FOC?

mody wrote:Hope to hear the announcement for Series Production of first batch of 20 LCA to start from August-September 2013 timeframe.

HAL started assembling SPs long time back. Ajai Shukla reported structural assembly of SP-1 having started way back in FEb'11. You will see the SPs for LCA Mk-1 being rolled out soon.

Philip wrote:It will be a miracle if we have more than 60 by 2020,as Mk-2 is nowhere on the horizon.

HAL had floated tenders for raw materials for the assembly of MK-II last year. So I am expecting them to have started the assembly of Mk-II by now.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 02 Apr 2013 02:41

Philip wrote:Official production figures for Mk-1 is 8 per year.It will be a miracle if we have more than 60 by 2020,as Mk-2 is nowhere on the horizon.
Curiously,the NLCA which some time ago was beset with major problems,seems from the report to be making a comeback.If it is perfected even by 2015,we could see 2 sqds. of NLCAs serving aboard the VIK and IAC-1 (when it evetually arrives!) by 2020. Is this because of the better "focus" on projects by the IN?

You mean when THEY eventually arrive?

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 02 Apr 2013 03:07

Nice to see the LSP8 - Good progress!!

IOC next!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Apr 2013 03:32

Official production figures for Mk-1 is 8 per year

16 is doable - am not able to find the quote, but it was quoted right around the time we were discussing they going abroad to look at ways to increase production.

It is not difficult to move to multiples of 8.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Apr 2013 03:55

Jan 21, 2013 :: Indian Jet Maker Declines Int’l Help

Not the 16/sixteen figure I was looking for, but a very recent article on the topic:

India will not seek overseas help in setting up the production line for its homegrown Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program, as state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has told the Indian Defence Ministry that it will build the assembly line by itself, according to a HAL spokesman.

The remarks are in contrast to media reports here that said HAL had approached overseas aircraft manufacturers, including Eurofighter of Germany, to help build the assembly line for the LCA.

“At this stage, we have not contemplated partnering,” said HAL spokes-man Gopal Sutar, adding that work on the production line has already begun. “[The] production line for assembly hangars and associated facilities are already available, and the jigs for building the structures ... are getting upgraded to production standard progressively.”

He added that “HAL is not facing any technical problems in setting up the production line.”

Still, while HAL says it will go it alone on LCA production, sources said the MoD has received offers from overseas aircraft manufacturers in a bid to help HAL set up the production line.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Apr 2013 11:40

NRao wrote:
Official production figures for Mk-1 is 8 per year
16 is doable - am not able to find the quote, but it was quoted right around the time we were discussing they going abroad to look at ways to increase production.

It is not difficult to move to multiples of 8.

Any number is doable. That has not been the problem -- the problem is that in the world of Indian defence production, the doable has not been done.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Apr 2013 09:15

SaiK wrote:what are those packages (any rafale type sensors planned?) on either top side of the diverter plates. was it there on lsp-7?

If you're referring to the red coloured circular port just aft of the channel that connects the diverter plate to the upper wing, then my guess is that they are the pressure refuelling/defuelling access ports. I've never noticed it before, not even on the LSP-7, but this pressure refuelling system was developed some months ago.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Apr 2013 09:24

I wonder what is the readiness level of the defensive ECM suite of the Tejas like RWR, SPJ, perhaps even a spherical maws is warranted because even strike birds carry a couple amraams these days like the F-solah on wingtips(!) ...atleast it should be made equal to a M2K-9 and not left in austere state which will just make the IAF relegate to a training role...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Apr 2013 10:48

Kartik wrote:
SaiK wrote:what are those packages (any rafale type sensors planned?) on either top side of the diverter plates. was it there on lsp-7?
If you're referring to the red coloured circular port just aft of the channel that connects the diverter plate to the upper wing, then my guess is that they are the pressure refuelling/defuelling access ports. I've never noticed it before, not even on the LSP-7, but this pressure refuelling system was developed some months ago.

No they have been there all the while. For example here is TD-2.

I also don't know what they are.

P.S.
1. Corrected the images.
2. A little research revealed that the middle one is the gravity fuel filler port. I don't know about the other two.

member_23657 · Post by **member_23657** » 05 Apr 2013 01:19

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2114 Test Flights Successfully. (30-Mar-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-359,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2115 Test Flights Successfully. (3-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-360,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Apr 2013 01:25

So how many flight hours are all these tests?

Reason there was early marker of so many flying hours before accpetance by IAF.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 05 Apr 2013 08:04

^^^ Ya, LSP8 is too cool for IRST so they removed it....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Apr 2013 08:18

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YUs4s-3sfGs/U ... 747029.JPG
This is one of the best LCA images I have seen that show the "twist" in the wingtips like the wingtip feathers of a hawk or eagle

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Apr 2013 08:25

shiv wrote:This is one of the best LCA images I have seen that show the "twist" in the wingtips like the wingtip feathers of a hawk or eagle

Sjiv-ji see this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_twist
One of the boeing engineers implimented this first on a B 747 I think, to reduce wing flutter and to ensure that the wing tip always has a lower AoA than the rest of the wing. This design feature has a name after that engineer. Can't recall the name though.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 05 Apr 2013 08:49

Was it 3 LCA's that roared off one after another just now?
missed it since I was having the breakfast

member_22868 · Post by **member_22868** » 05 Apr 2013 09:17

LCA Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2115 Test Flights Successfully. (3-Apr-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-360,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-153,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2117 Test Flights Successfully. (4-April--2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-361,LSP1-74,LSP2-258,PV5-36,LSP3-121,LSP4-72,LSP5-154,LSP7-34,NP1-4,LSP8-1)

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 08 Apr 2013 07:23

In the end doesn't the mirage2000 series aircraft outperform the LCA (MKI and II) in almost every parameter?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 08 Apr 2013 07:45

Groan!! Here we go again!

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 08 Apr 2013 08:59

RoyG wrote:In the end doesn't the mirage2000 series aircraft outperform the LCA (MKI and II) in almost every parameter?

Lets assume it does. What of it?

--Ashish

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2013 09:26

RoyG wrote:In the end doesn't the mirage2000 series aircraft outperform the LCA (MKI and II) in almost every parameter?

Maybe. Is this of any consequence, in your view? Merely making an observation like yours is meaningless unless you can add value to your opinion by stating that you know something different from others. Otherwise you are simply trolling.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 08 Apr 2013 09:39

We don't know that the final FCS controlled turn rates, the clean RCS and other numbers for the LCA are going to be yet (even for mk1, let alone mk2), please desist from comparing LCA to other aircraft.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 08 Apr 2013 09:59

I didn't mean anything by the comment. Just interested in knowing what the advantages are of this particular aircraft design over the mirage2000.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 08 Apr 2013 10:18

They made the aircraft canopy lower and the cockpit smaller. Indians being shorter and thinner than europeans, did not need that much clearance for the head or lateral space. Apart from that not much difference.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 08 Apr 2013 11:54

RoyG wrote:I didn't mean anything by the comment. Just interested in knowing what the advantages are of this particular aircraft design over the mirage2000.

I have an interesting story for you. A friend of mine went to his village in lower Himalayas (just around 35 km into the lower hills) and he was just doing what most Indians do every morning (which if done indoors will make us a developed country). Coincidently just then a bunch of IAF fighters (3-4) decided to startle an unsuspecting pahadi with their nape of the earth flying skills in the Himalayas. My friend just jumped from his place. Nobody does that to another man in such nazuk moments. The guys was still cross at IAF when he was narrating his story.

I told him there are no airbases in a 100 km from his village and how there were other less populated parts of Uttarakhand where IAF could do this. I told him that I suspect an extreme flying training mission that basically lost its way. But this tells us one thing clearly. That IAF has been working on this. Being from Uttarakhand he too is very apprehensive of the Chinese biladel and after hearing this and the likely meaning of this he is much less angry at the IAF jocks. In fact he can claim to be amongst the rarest of Indians who has seen an IAF fighter in flight, from above while himself being on the ground.

The point is RoyG, pls compare the open source info on both M2K and Tejas Mk1 to see which aircraft can do this better. Compare the wing loading, the TW, the LCA test pilots comments on handling, the Goa speed run, the Leh high alti tests, the significance of the successful flutter tests. Basically things in the public domain. I believe you will fall in love with LCA Mk1.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Apr 2013 09:18

RoyG wrote:I didn't mean anything by the comment. Just interested in knowing what the advantages are of this particular aircraft design over the mirage2000.

Sir, that was a spectacular downhill ski

Your original statement was a provocative statement couched as a rhetorical question. I reproduce it below. If you now claim that you "did not mean anything" by the following comment, one cannot verify that you mean anything with any comment

RoyG wrote:In the end doesn't the mirage2000 series aircraft outperform the LCA (MKI and II) in almost every parameter?

If you are unaware of the parameters in which the Mirage 2000 outperforms the LCA, you have not asked to be informed. You have asked a question that can only come with a yes, no answer.

Does the Mirage 2000 outperform the LCA in almost every parameter?

In my personal view the answer is "no". The issue cannot be discussed further unless one were to discuss which parameters you meant when you did not mean anything in your original post. Unless you already have some parameters in your mind, it would not be possible to state that the "parameters" of one "outperforms" the parameters of another.

Don't get me wrong. I have come down hard on you, but I believe it is necessary to come down hard on loose and meaningless talk. Too many people say too many things about the LCA based on hearsay and a general intent to be derisive or overly apologetic and needlessly defensive of a difficult program for India.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 09 Apr 2013 11:13

RoyG wrote:In the end doesn't the mirage2000 series aircraft outperform the LCA (MKI and II) in almost every parameter?

...the Arjun outperformed the T-90 in most parameters, yet we will have more T-72s in our inventory than Arjuns. In life, timing is everything-the LCA was originally to be India's Mig-21 replacement, we had the option of setting up a Mirage 2000 production line etc. etc.

Let the LCA get FOC as the next major milestone, many things will have changed again till that time.

vic · Post by **vic** » 09 Apr 2013 13:39

LCA outperforms Mirage 2000 in all parameters except one- Capacity to generate slush money

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2013 13:47

vic wrote:LCA outperforms Mirage 2000 in all parameters

Do we have a tabular sheet comparing LCA Mk1 and M2K side by side with key parameter like rate of climb , turn rates, Alpha , Range ,payload ....that should settle matter for good

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Apr 2013 13:51

ravi_g wrote:<SNIP> In fact he can claim to be amongst the rarest of Indians who has seen an IAF fighter in flight, from above while himself being on the ground.<SNIP>

Aiyooo!!!! Please to add me this category also...though, I wan not in any nazuk situation

My hometown happens to be in hills due east from Pathankot (some 50 odd kms as crow flies) - which has an IAF base - and fighter and Mi-24/35 helicopters can be seen in the air. Between Pathankot and me home town, there are series of parallel ridges with ever increasing height. And my home town sits between these ridges and the majestic Dhauladhar ranges which are an extension of Himalayas.

Now, it so happened that I was standing on the roof of my uncle's house and heard this faint roar of jet engines. The Mujahid in me instantly realized that there are fighters in the area. So, moi started scanning the air above the mountain ridges to my west for glimpse of them fighters.

But lo and behold...what did I see!!! two Mig-21 fighters flying in the valley between moi house and the ridge to west of it. Them were not more then 200 meters from me house (which was at an elevation - the land is not flat) and I could actually look down on them.

My guess was that these were trying to mask their approach to Pathankot AFB by making a lo-lo run and avoiding the radars plus any overflying CAP.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 09 Apr 2013 14:06

wait till LCA make it to sulur. i will try to see them take off and land, its 1 hr drive from my inlaws

vic · Post by **vic** » 09 Apr 2013 15:37

The cost of two new LCA is equal to one old upgraded Mirage 2000. So the question should be what can an old upgraded Mirage 2000 do which two new LCA cannot do?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Apr 2013 15:46

vic wrote:The cost of two new LCA is equal to one old upgraded Mirage 2000. So the question should be what can an old upgraded Mirage 2000 do which two new LCA cannot do?

Well, the question is when will those two brand new LCA become available with the same technology set to do exactly as the upgraded Mirage 2000 or M2K-5. Can you put pen to paper on this one before we make cost benefit analysis?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Apr 2013 16:05

^^^

It is said that a bird in hand is better then two in the bush.

But by the time taken the M2k is finished, the IAF is more then likely have over 100 LCAs if the production scales up post 2016.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Apr 2013 16:19

Pratyush wrote:^^^

It is said that a bird in hand is better then two in the bush.

But by the time taken the M2k is finished, the IAF is more then likely have over 100 LCAs if the production scales up post 2016.

Well, if you 'if and buts' in the same statement as the metaphor in the first line, the contradiction in your statement becomes apparent.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2013 17:00

vic wrote:So the question should be what can an old upgraded Mirage 2000 do which two new LCA cannot do?

A fair comparision with new LCA and old non-upgraded M2K is only possible once LCA enter squadron service and is in use for atleast a year .....that should give a good idea how both system would fare.

Off my head and I am comparing LCA with older Mirages not upgraded ones , Mirage is capable of BVR using SARH and it can carry a payload of more than 6 T , while LCA Mk1 has no BVR capability and is restricted to payload of 3.5 T.

May be we can compare Tejas Mk2 with Upgraded M2K and Mig-29SMT or Gripen-NG but that is something far off.