Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Feb 21, 2013

[JE Menon]

Prem aren't you assuming that ABMs are going to net 100% of the IRBMs that Pakistan sends in our direction? If not, and I presume not by far, what would their interest be in lofting an ICBM ? Moreover our theoretical situation is that we are going to be hit anyway... What difference if by ICBM or IRBMs? Plus we can be sure they will keep more than enough irbms to deal with us while going the ICBM route.

[Neela]

1. Pakistan has been unstable for decades and Indian security has been at risk for decades. It is idiotic to imagine that some future unstable Pakistan is going to create some future security risk to India

2. Detente with Islamabad will make no change to India's defence budget simply because you cannot turn on and turn off defence preparedness at will. If detente with Pakistan lasts for 20 years - over those 20 years there will be some reallocation of defence resources and things that were planed for the future might be postponed or cancelled. Otherwise there will be no significant change in defence spending. It is not physically possible to downsize a large military every time Paki decides not to fart on a Friday

3. There are commercial benefits in a large military industrial complex and India needs to start reaping those benefits and let Pakistan and its resident pious shitlanders go to hell. Hostility forever is a good paradigm to follow for a healthy MilInd complex. [/list]

Fantastic Dr.
A very valuable post because through and through, it has only Indian interests.

[Gagan]

India is headed to be the third largest economy of the world. It will therefore have the third most powerful military and one of the most advanced militaries in the world.
Detente with Pakistan non withstanding, India's defence preparedness will continue, I think.

There is one scenario where India's security situation might worsen. That is one where the Talibs get a hold of the Pakistani Nukes and threaten all and sundry with retaliation. Or I suppose some India specific Pak-army trained group like the LET getting hold of one.
However that scenario will bring in massa, NATO and India in and the result will be a de-nuked pakistan. Cheen will have to stand by and wave from the sidelines, just as it did in '71, Kargil and numerous other occasions.

But otherwise, there is a difference between talibs getting nukes and Pakistan's sarkari jihadis getting nukes. The Talibs are more intelligent than we give them credit for, they probably won't want to make India an enemy and they don't have any interaction with India to want to nuke India.

The Sarkari Jihadis are == Pakistan Army, and them getting nukes and threatening retaliation == Pakistani army threatening India. The response from India will be against the Pakistani army - Generals and their right and left hand possessions, Pakistan's military and Industrial infrastructure. Pakistani Army want's to pinprick India, 1000 small cuts but they are not suicidal yet.

Another possible situation might be if there is more islam coming into pakistan. More green on green violence brought into the Punjabi heartland by the purest. Where there are large scale massacres and ethinic cleansing, and everyone in Punjab makes a beeline for the Indian border. I know this scenario has been discussed at the highest levels in India, and this is an eventuality that is a possibility. This has happened before in 1971 when the Pak fauj was conducting a genocide in East Pakistan. There has been some discussion within India and even here on BRF on how to go about dealing with such a situation.

Otherwise, Pakistan will be perpetually be unstable, the Talibs will for ever try to use violence to bring in a purer form of Islam, there will for ever be murders, shoot-outs, corruption, ethnically targeted killings going on there. That is the unstable-stable situation that Pakistan is settling into for the foreseeable future.

Otherwise, shiv-ji is absolutely correct, Pakistan has been unstable for decades, nearly all its existing life. And India's calculus has evolved to live with that instability.

[RajeshA]

India is headed to be the third largest economy of the world. It will therefore have the third most powerful military and one of the most advanced militaries in the world.

Detente with Pakistan non withstanding, India's defence preparedness will continue, I think.

With Modi at the helm, one can be sure that within 15 years we would have a world class MIC, second perhaps only to the USA.

For Pakistan, we would not even need to fart loudly!

[anupmisra]

Im the Dim's pre-poll promises
Read and track.

PTI announces manifesto of ‘realistic’ promises

Khan said so far he had fulfilled every promise he had made adding that he would not make any promises which could not be fulfilled

The new Pakistan arising out of PTI’s election into power would not fight any other country’s war

...that local body elections would be held within 90 days of PTI’s election into power.

...vowed to eliminate corruption from the country

...he would not form any kind of a coalition government.

The PTI chief said his government would legislate on policy and the local government would carry out development work.

...the entire country would be de-weaponised, with first priority accorded to Karachi

...pledged an end to electricity load-shedding from the country within three years’ time.

...that the provincial governor and chief minister houses would be converted into libraries and educational institutes

The anti-terrorism laws would also be changed

[RamaY]

There are wide range of possibilities on how Mushy might end up:

- Z.A. Bhutto way ->judicial murder
- Pinky Bhutto way -> Plain boring soosai bomb
- Zia way -> In the air mango crate delivery
- Salman Taseer Way-> Ghazi style murder
- Col. Imam / Khalid Khwaja way -> Kidnap and shooting in close range and body found by the road side
- Ghaddafi Way -> lynched/sodomized by ghazis

Calm and peaceful retired or political life is not one of the possibilities. Pakistan does not allow that.

I recommend Pinki style. Musharraf can take 100-200 Pakis along with him.

[Lalmohan]

can we blend pinki and gaddafi way? we'll be happy, paks will be happy and talibs will be happy...

[RamaY]

can we blend pinki and gaddafi way? we'll be happy, paks will be happy and talibs will be happy...

That is what happening aint it? We are seeing a color revolution in Bakistan. Only hope is that it is very long drawn, 'revolutionary' , black (what you get when you mix green with blood)....

[Lalmohan]

er... i was only thinking about the ghazis and their special interests... and mushy's mushy...

[member_22872]

- Z.A. Bhutto way ->judicial murder

This is maha boring, this is one on one revenge style, nothing will come of it, another Mushy will take his place sooner than later.

- Zia way -> In the air mango crate delivery

Interesting, will fill couple of TIRP pages, but same as hanging but with vengeance.

- Salman Taseer Way-> Ghazi style murder

Gazi wil be garlanded and will get a book deal.

- Col. Imam / Khalid Khwaja way -> Kidnap and shooting in close range and body found by the road side

very professional gun man style, nothing for SDREs

- Ghaddafi Way -> lynched/sodomized by ghazis

lynching and if telephone poled with entry ticket or free passes to the pious to watch the exhibition can make many fellow TSPians happy. Wrth a spectacle to watch for SDREs too a fit farewell to the megalomaniac.

[Prem]

er... i was only thinking about the ghazis and their special interests... and mushy's mushy...

Musharaff will go the way of Mushfaar by good Talib. So is written, so is said and so it will be done. Rat always die squeaking . No fun if not done to this klun.

Mush key Putt Khole Rey , Tumhe Talib Milenge
Katuuk Vachan Matt Bole Rey
Tumhe sore Karnegee!!
Jihad Bragging Kaa Garv Naa Keejey
Deep Karenge Hole Rey, Tumhe Talib Milenge

[joygoswami]

Egyptian Blogger now faces probe for insulting terrorist state of Pakhanastan

The new lawsuits accuse Youssef of “insulting the state of Pakistan and causing tensions in its relations with Egypt”

In an episode after Morsi visited Pakistan in March, Youssef made fun of a hat worn by the president when he received an honorary doctorate from a university in Islamabad.

[ramana]

i think Mushy was parachuted in to serve US interests in leaving Afghanistan with H&D still in place.
However TTP has become strong and the revelation of Nek Muhammad getting his raisins for TSPA quid pro quo is another straw. Mushy represents all that is wrong from TTP pov.
Most likely he will get ghaddafied.

And it would serve him right for all the murders he organized while in TSPA:Gilgit, Kragil and so on.

[RajeshA]

- Zia way -> In the air mango crate delivery

I am not sure, Musharraf will ever fly again, even on domestic flights. I think the best option for Musharraf is to go underground in Pakistan.

[Prem]

(M)Tushy is true Muslim. See even in begging his Katora is Green, the color of allah.
Mushy's Paki dream
Tumm Agar Bheekh Dene Ka waada karo,
Main Ummar Bhar Paki kahata Rahoon.

[RajeshA]

I think soon on BENIS one would have to play, "Spaat Mushy-RAA-F" rather than "Spaat the RAA-Agint"!

[anupmisra]

Note the paki-perfidy mixed with irony in this next piece. Djinnah wanted over whelmingly disproportionate representation of Indian Muslims in the parliament as a prerequisite to keeping India intact. The same pakhanistan that was founded on these very principles now offers lower representation on reserved seats.

69 kafirs vying for ten reserved seats

Non-Muslim members are elected in proportion to the number of general seats won by political parties.

Sixty-nine candidates, seven of them women, are vying for 10 seats reserved for non-Muslims in the National Assembly, according to the final list issued by the Election Commission of Pakistan (ECP) here on Monday

They have been nominated by 18 political parties in order of preference under Section 47A of the People’s Representation Act, 1976.

Non-Muslim members are elected in proportion to the number of general seats won by political parties in the elections.

[MurthyB]

PESHAWAR (AFP) - Heavy fighting between Pakistani troops and militants has killed 13 soldiers and scores of enemy fighters at a flashpoint near the Afghan border, military officials said Tuesday.

The clashes signalled a fresh military push in the Tirah valley of Khyber district, where the military has been targeting Taliban and militia Lashkar-e-Islam who threaten the nearby northwestern city of Peshawar.

Khyber straddles the NATO supply line into Afghanistan, used by US-led troops to evacuate military equipment ahead of their 2014 withdrawal, and officials say it is key to protecting security in Peshawar for elections next month.

"Thirteen soldiers have died over the past three days in different parts of Tirah valley. Ground forces have intensified operations against TTP (Tehreek-e-Taliban) and Lashkar-e-Islam," a military official told AFP.

The official said more than 100 militants had also been killed, but the death toll was not possible to verify independently as the area is cut off to journalists and aid workers.

He said the town of Tut Sar had been "captured" back from militants and that soldiers had now erected a post in the area.

"Helicopters and jets participated in the operation. They are shelling militant hideouts in the valley," the official said.

A second military official confirmed the same details.

Pakistani troops have been fighting for years against homegrown insurgents in the northwestern tribal belt, where the United States has accused them of not doing enough to crack down on Taliban and other militants active in Afghanistan.


From a discussion elsewhere:

Captain Wasim, 3 Cdo, who was amongst the shaheeds, is my class-fellow....!

...and in reality, casualty figures are way too much....!

What are the actual casulty figures then?

about 17 Commandos, 10-15 Infantry shaheed (Including 2 officers), atleast 18 commandos, unknown figures for infantry injured.....

[Prem]

Kayani’s name surfaces in Musharraf treason case
Kya aapke Popcorn ready Hai ? Dukhiya Mushya Pukare , CJP Baat Sunoo:Kayani Ko Bhi Aan Pharo
Preetam Aan Milo... C H Atma
Trial Mera Akele Chalaya Jalima:
Munn Mera Ghabraye Hai:
GHQ mey Baitha Kayani Kyon aise Muskraye Hai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=153BNbmkf1M

SLAMABAD: In response to the Supreme Court’s notice over five identical petitions against him for subverting and holding the constitution in abeyance, the counsel for former chief of army staff (COAS) General (r) Pervez Musharraf has asked the Supreme Court to issue notice to incumbent COAS, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, because he was also the member of the team that had issued the PCO.A two-member bench of the apex court, headed by Justice Jawwad S Khawaja, however told Ahmad Raza Kasuri that it had only issued notices to the respondents in five petitions. Ahmed Raza Kasuri, appearing on behalf of Musharraf, also hinted that his client would also raise objections over a few judges at a later stage. However, the court asked him to inform the bench of his client’s objections to the judges, and if they were valid the judges would recuse.The counsel also contended that if the case is heard then a Pandora’s box would open and “names of some bigwigs will come into limelight”. Upon this, Justice Jawwad said if these things happen then let it be. “We will ensure that the justice is not only done but seems to be done regardless of opening of the Pandora’s box,” he added.Justice Khilji Arif Hussain said many commissions were constituted on important issues but their findings were not made public. He said at time things have to be decided in accordance with the constitution and law. “If you are able to prove that the allegations are wrong then it’s fine otherwise we will pass an appropriate order on the petitions.” The courtroom’s atmosphere was very tense during the hearing of the case, and several times harsh words were also exchanged between the counsel for the petitioners and the counsel for respondent. The Supreme Court, while rejecting Musharraf’s request to adjourn the case against him for subverting and holding the constitution in abeyance until May 20, 2013, adjourned it till April15. Kasuri pleaded that the court notice was received late last night. He argued this case is a case of first impression, therefore reasonable time is required, as very significant questions of law are involved, and plethora of files have to be gone through. He said, “Pervez Musharraf is in the midst of election and approaching the people of Pakistan”, and “the litigation would prevent him from approaching the people of Pakistani, therefore adjourn the case till May 20 to meet the ends of justice.” The court dismissed the request, saying, personal presence of Musharraf is not required in the case yet therefore no need to make submission that ex-COAS is prevented from normal activities. Meanwhile, a section officer from the Ministry of Interior submitted a report regarding placement of Musharraf’s name on the ECL.

[kmkraoind]

[vishal]

Taliban Defend New Perch in Northern Pakistan, Gaining Sway as Election Nears
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/10/world ... n.html?hpw

Quote: "The army launched a two-pronged assault on Tirah last Friday. But it soon suffered heavy casualties, after troops from the elite Special Services Group commando unit ran into an ambush after clearing a village, a senior tribal official said. “Most of those killed so far are from the S.S.G.,” he said."

[vishal]

How a Single Spy Helped Turn Pakistan Against the United States
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/14/magaz ... n.html?hpw

Long read, but interesting.

[Anujan]

ISLAMABAD: In response to the Supreme Court’s notice over five identical petitions against him for subverting and holding the constitution in abeyance, the counsel for former chief of army staff (COAS) General (r) Pervez Musharraf has asked the Supreme Court to issue notice to incumbent COAS, General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, because he was also the member of the team that had issued the PCO.The counsel also contended that if the case is heard then a Pandora’s box would open and “names of some bigwigs will come into limelight”.

I had posted a couple of days back:

Mushy is entering a dangerous phase.

The supreme court is trying him for treason for having sacked the judges. However, his major danger is not from that. His defence would be that he took the decision based on the advise of his advisors -- which would be the crore kammandus. Who might then be summoned. Many of his Crore Kammandus are still serving.

To spare all this complication, the Army might choose to bump him off. And ofcourse everyone can blame Hakeemullah after that and demand more F16s and Submarines to fight the Taliban.

I still cannot understand why this deathwish? Does the man think he can threaten judges, Army and politicians and expect no consequence? There are too many people riding the gravy train for him to derail it.

[Anujan]

How a Single Spy Helped Turn Pakistan Against the United States
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/14/magaz ... n.html?hpw

Long read, but interesting.

Right. Like as though Pakistanis were totally pro-US before Raymond Davis episode.

They were hiding Bin Laden from 2001.

[shiv]

I'm lovin' it!

[Anujan]

Some smart farsighted SDRE once said that Pakistanis think Pakistan is a province of India.

The entitlement and the yearning for acknowledgment stems from that.

[Lilo]

Taliban Defend New Perch in Northern Pakistan, Gaining Sway as Election Nears
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/10/world ... n.html?hpw

^^ More from here

The Taliban fled into the Tirah Valley in mid-March after tough clashes with the army in the neighboring district of Orakzai. They surprised military officials by quickly vanquishing a pro-government militia stationed in the Tirah, and by forging an opportunistic alliance with a powerful local warlord, Mangal Bagh, who had previously fought the Taliban.

“It took us by surprise,” one senior official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

The army launched a two-pronged assault on Tirah last Friday. But it soon suffered heavy casualties, after troops from the elite Special Services Group commando unit ran into an ambush after clearing a village, a senior tribal official said. “Most of those killed so far are from the S.S.G.,” he said.

Since then the army has hit back hard, using artillery and helicopter gunship strikes. The army press office said Monday that 23 soldiers and 110 militants had been killed. Privately, officials put the militant death toll in the dozens.

Until now the valley, which has little arable land, was best known as a center of smuggling, gun running and hashish production. In Peshawar, displaced farmers have spoken openly of their distress at potentially losing their hashish stocks, Mr. Aziz, the retired official, said.

“They told me they were in debt with the drug traffickers, and now they would not be able to repay them,” he said.

Back inside the valley, the army faces the tough task of dislodging the Taliban from the high ground. “But we cannot afford to leave the operation halfway through. It will have to be taken to its logical end,” one senior security official said.

Mullahz and Birathers, better to stock up on the Hashish now.

[Prem]

Mangal Bagh becomes LI, Taliban supremo in Khyber
http://dawn.com/2013/04/10/mangal-bagh- ... in-khyber/

LANDI KOTAL: Mangal Bagh has become supreme leader of both the Lashkar-i-Islam (LI) and Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) for the tribal region of Khyber.“The decision to elevate Mangal Bagh to the status of supreme commander for Khyber was taken at a joint shura of Taliban and LI ‘commanders’,” highly placed government officials said.They said the high-ranking ‘commanders’ of both the Taliban and LI had agreed to coordinate with each other and consult on all matters of mutual importance, particularly those pertaining to Tirah valley and the Khyber Agency.The decision to strike a deal with the LI chief came at a time when the TTP tightened its grip in the areas it had snatched from Ansaarul Islam, a pro-government armed group.Lashkar-i-Islam is also well entrenched in Sipah, Akkakhel and Malikdin Khel areas of Tirah.The elevation of Mangal Bagh to the position of supreme commander coincided with a two-pronged army offensive against the TTP and LI, with the military suffering high losses in just four days of intense fighting.
The army launched a ground offensive against the banned LI from the Bazaar-Zakhakhel side while descending into the Bara valley and attacking the LI positions and from the Sheen Qamar side and thus reaching out to the LI hideouts in the area.The air force fighters also conducted several sorties over the area under the control of the TTP and targeted a number of their hideouts.“The main thrust of the current military offensive is the Mangal Bagh-led Lashkar-i-Islam while the Taliban area is dealt with through the air strikes,” the officials said, adding that the army had made inroads into the LI-controlled areas.The areas under the control of both the Taliban and LI are infamous for poppy cultivation and illicit drug trade with Afghanistan. “The money accrued from the narcotics trade is one of the main sources of income for both the groups in the otherwise picturesque valley of Tirah, bordering Afghanistan, Kurram and Orakzai agencies,” the officials said, adding that the Taliban laid their hands on poppy crop cultivated over a vast land when they had taken control of the areas dominated by Kukikhel and Ansaarul Islam in May last year and March this year.

[Prem]

http://www.thenews.com.pk/article-96083 ... -WikiLeaks
Indira had offered to share N-tech with Pakistan in 1974: WikiLeaks

EW DELHI: They are hostile neighbours widely seen by many as competing to have a bigger nuclear arsenal. However, after its first nuclear test in 1974, India offered to share nuclear technology with Pakistan. In her statement to Indian Parliament after the tests on July 22, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi said she had told her Pakistani counterpart, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, that New Delhi would be ready to share the relevant technology with Islamabad.Quoting her statement the US embassy reported, as revealed by Wikileaks, "I have explained in my letter to Prime Minister Bhutto the peaceful nature and the economic purposes of this experiment and have also stated that India is willing to share her nuclear technology with Pakistan in the same way she is willing to share it with other countries, provided proper conditions for understanding and trust are created. I once again repeat this assurance."The offer was extraordinary in its audacity, but equally in its foresight. The Indian offer came as Bhutto termed as insufficient Gandhi's assurance that tests were not meant to harm Pakistan. In his response to Gandhi, Bhutto said, many past assurances from India "regrettably remain unhonored". Testing of nuclear device is no different from detonation of a nuclear weapon, he wrote.
Pakistan tested a nuclear weapon for the first time in May, 1998 — a fortnight after India conducted its second nuclear test.But Gandhi's offer to share nuclear technology with Pakistan was not the move of a potential nuclear proliferator. Instead, it showed the confidence of a leader who probably believed that India, after the test, could seamlessly become part of the international nuclear system, where New Delhi could become a legitimate nuclear supplier. Gandhi's confidence, as it turned out, was misplaced. India was immediately placed under a tough technology denial regime. In fact, the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) was created as a result of the 1974 test precisely to keep countries like India beyond the pale. It took a hard-fought nuclear deal with the US to open that door for India in 2008.
But on July 22, 1974, Gandhi was looking ahead, and wanted to ensure that the craters formed by nuclear explosions could be used for strategic storage of oil and gas or even shale oil extraction. In her statement to Parliament, she seemed bemused by the international reaction to the first Pokharan test. "It was emphasized that activities in the field of peaceful nuclear explosion are essentially research and development programmes. Against this background, the government of India fails to understand why India is being criticized on the ground that the technology necessary for the peaceful nuclear explosion is no different from that necessary for weapons programme. No technology is evil in itself: it is the use that nations make of technology which determines its character. India does not accept the principle of apartheid in any matter and technology is no exception."

[Anujan]

Fellows here remember Daughter of Pakistan world famous neuro scientist Afiya Siddiqui? (who was arrested for helping the taliban, probably handed over by TFTAs for a few coins, and is the guest of Massa government in Gitmo or something?)

Her sister is apparently contesting the elections in Pakistan.

[Neela]

WTF is wrong with our leaders. There seems be a disease afflicting them. Every one of them seems to want to embrace the Pakis even they are extremely hostile. May or may not be true but IG offering tech to Pakis just after a war is right out of loony tunes. THen there was ABV's "bus" diplo-lunatic-macy! . And Advani statement on Jinnah. MMS went a step further at SeS.
There may be two causes here.
One - the nature of the threat is being interpreted incorrectly at he highest levels. Even now. Several agencies collect intelligence. It passes up the chain where it gets garbled somewhere in between.
Second - Indian lives lost seem to have little affect on the relations with TSP. This is very weird. Once again it is the Indian leaders who seem to have "agreed" that this collateral damage is OK. People's reaction are the same whether you are a leader or not. So something else overrides the need to avenge. JMTs

[Nandu]

You're reading IG's offer wrong.

[Baikul]

..........

I still cannot understand why this deathwish? Does the man think he can threaten judges, Army and politicians and expect no consequence? There are too many people riding the gravy train for him to derail it.

Rhetorical questions, saar?

This is the man who gave the go ahead for Kargil, threatened an entire nation and expected no consequences. Who are a few judges, army officers and politicians? He is the kommandu, the 21st century Ataturk. This is what he has done, is doing and will continue to do until his own sunroof moment. By now, IMO we don't need much pisko to know that it is the very nature of the beast. Mushy does what Mushy must, and Mushy must do it.

[shiv]

the 21st century Ataturk Ackathoo-rk.

..there - corrected

[jamwal]

Pakis are using gunships, fighter planes and heavy artillery inside their own territory to fight some rag-tag bunch of militants, but are sustaining very heavy causalities. For an army funded by Juu-Ass-Aye, it seems very surprising. What am I missing here ?

[svenkat]

In the deffn dumb or whatever it is called,they are claiming that the bunnies are as tough and as well trained as uniformed jihadies.And tirah valley seems to be a very important one for non-state actors who escaped from earlier assaults.

Basically,the pakjabis are sh11ting bricks when faced with more pious ones.

[Gagan]

Pakis are using gunships, fighter planes and heavy artillery inside their own territory to fight some rag-tag bunch of militants, but are sustaining very heavy causalities. For an army funded by Juu-Ass-Aye, it seems very surprising. What am I missing here ?

The opposing army is also probably funded by the Juu-Ass-Aye

[Gagan]

The fact that Pakistan had to bring in the SSG tells me two things.
1. The mango abdul soldier of a regular Pak Army infantry regiment is a goner. He will not fight a purer muslim with any conviction, and will there for lose. His hands, his mind are not able to kill a purer muslim. So the Pakistani fauj has had to call in the SSG so that there is discipline in the ranks.
I am sure the abdul soldiers are thankful that the SSG is doing the job.
2. Sheer Lack of Training and fighting ability! They had to bring in an elite assault unit to take out some abduls in a valley, where they were supported by airpower and the freedom to use air power and artillery barrages indiscriminately! I mean all that the mango abdul soldier ever had to do was mopping up ops and these bozos can't even do that?!!

Hain ji, that tells one a lot about the Pak Fauj as a credible fighting force !

[Lalmohan]

that is becos tspa is bombing villages and massacring villagers at random and then getting ambushed when they bluster around afterwards checking out the village's surviving khushboos and getting caught with their shalwars down

[sum]

^^ Are the paramilitaries like the FC being labelled as "soldiers" here or are these actual super-duper TSPA units in action ( other than the SSG)?

Also, the SSG seems to have a amazingly high mortality rates among SF units anywhere since i can easily recall atleast 60-80 causalities being reported in open source news in last 3-4 years which seems huge for a small SF formation