Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Yayavar
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Yayavar » 02 Apr 2013 08:20

Amit-ji: There was no assumption there - you made a mocking comment what was discordant. I would have otherwise only commented on the caste aspersion by the other poster. So I'm sure we both will comment on notes that we find discordant or incorrect or the ones we agree with too.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 02 Apr 2013 10:54

viv wrote:I agree on the caste stuff (like hte comment made by Baikul's father's CO) -- the baniya or brahmin comment has been made on brf many a times...which is ridiculous. Totally agree with you on it.
.


Viv-ji; there are enough Gupta Chakra winners in IA to put paid to a caste theory. :lol:

The issue that I pointed to (and thank you for understanding that) -- was the the social composition of India changed, including the pattern of wealth owning, and what were the preferences of those who had/have wealth. -- I believe we are in agreement here. That is the root of many statements of "people joined forces for a passion and not to make a living" statement. There was a class which could afford to do so and was traditionally into warfare as fundamental calling in life. I also said and I repeat -- the rich now are the baniya's/vaishya's (do not mean it negatively or in caste manner but profession wise) -- they have neither personal and rarely inherited interest in such matters. Today the class of people who could afford to do what ever they wanted to, and not work for a living, still focus their efforts on making more money.

I see this is being twisted into some other sick story by some one who can think on such lines.

Some have a reflexive need to maintain a haigographical account of some political entities, hence even basic realities are unpalatable -- thus the grouse hunting and the need to go into a long defense of IGs back stabbing of the Indian princes.

Of course since the obvious and real agenda of hiding the duplicity of certain political people needs some papering over -- generous paraphrasing and ascribing comments to others "he said this" and then proceed to knocked down what has been ascribed on to others.

We see the same game by very similarly minded people in UK thread as well.

For my part, I would call this behavior of ascribing words to others which they have not spoken as lying. But then it is probably part of the same family traditions that make me upright about some behaviors. No doubt I am being a castist here, no?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 02 Apr 2013 14:03

Gentlemen, if I may add my two cents to the debate:

- Indian Army and its Officer Corps reflects the Indian society in more ways than one. The word generation gap actually finds its true expression in the Services. And the reason for the same is very simple - An officer becomes Lt.Col in today's army with 14 years of service. While one set of Officers is ready to becomes Lt.Col, another set of youngsters in 21-23 old age bracket is ready to join the army at young Lt.

- In the intervening period, the Indian society would have undergone tremendous changes. Therefore, you'll see the difference in general outlook towards life between a Lt.Col and a young Subaltern. The various stories you hear from your father or relatives who are senior officers about young officers joining service is symptomatic of this generation gap. Each generation of officer thinks that the new generation lacks in some sort of values. This is not entirely different from the comments you hear from your elders in the house.

- Now, it so happens that the pace of change in the post 1991 India has been very rapid. Every system fights to maintain status-quo and IA is no different. In fact, a highly pyramidal, process and structure oriented organization steeped in customs and history like Indian Army resists that much more. BTW, this resistance is not by way of formal orders or directives but more by way of how things are done in a day to day manner.

- But change is inevitable and IA cannot and has not remained immune from it. It just so happens that in a pyramidal organization like IA, the 3-generations serve together - with the oldest at the top of pyramid. And youngest at the bottom. And the senior generation always considers the one below it as deviant.

Having said the above, now let us look into this officer business in the army in today's time:

Long story short, IA today is another profession for the man who join it. Simple. And this careerist approach is the reason for the boon and bane in the Army today. Please allow me to explain. Sanku's point about the landed gentry and aristocratic is quite valid. Army was a noble profession and this had an appeal to people with this class. Army was the only institution which gave them an opportunity to be warriors in the mold of an era gone by. They were in it for thrills and high life it offered - Polo, Equestrian events, Crickets, Clubs and the whole zing-bang. And it is no coincidence that these men preferred (and patronized) the senior Cavalry Regiments of the Indian Army. And continue to do so.

Money or career was the last thing on their mind. Just check the number of people from this class who have retired as Majors from the IA - and again from Cavalry Regiments. It is quite similar to British Monarchy or other Royals joining the Household Cavalry or one of the Foot Guards Regiments.

But times they are a changing - fast forward to post 1991 India and Army is just another profession. The men who join IA do so with the intention of earning their bread with honor and dignity. They don't join services with rose tinted glasses. This generation is more pragmatic on these counts. And frankly, neither is army looking for such men. I have an acquaintance who before joining IA was a Medical Representative. When quizzed in SSB about decision to join army, he frankly told the officer - "It is a better paying profession than being an MR". And today, he is a Lt.Col. in the Army.

So, men are more competitive and career oriented in their outlook. And it has its benefits and drawbacks. Benefits are in terms of knowledge base and potential of these men: War-fighting in 21st century is a different beast all together. An officer needs to deal with high-tech machinery from word go and be familiar with various inter-related stuff. You need more educated men who can absorb these things and change as and when technology changes.

Of course, these men are less inclined to play bridge after lunch or have endless discussions in evenings over couple of rounds of Rum or Whisky. They are more keen to spend free time to read-up - on future courses or investment opportunities for their money or latest mobile phone. They are highly glued to the outside world.

The downside of this competitive generation is sometime lack of camaraderie and the kind of politics which people see in the corporate world. As RayC once said on this forum - "There was a time when all that an officer desired was to be able to Command his Battalion. But nowadays, people are always looking for more."

As men change, so will the culture. But the basic structure of the Army and its ethos have always remained intact and will always remain so. These young men proved themselves in 1999 and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so in future.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 02 Apr 2013 14:14

Brilliant post, Rohit.

Thanks

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby amit » 02 Apr 2013 14:28

Rohit,

Great post, thanks.

I agree with your points and in my original post I did try to say essentially the same thing though I wasn't even half as eloquent or through as you have been.

However, the point is, nomenclature is something that folks should be very careful about especially when talking about a secular organisation such as the Armed forces. Using terms like baniyas and vaishyas more so in a pejorative tone is not done IMO. More so since I seem to remember (correct me if I'm wrong) there have been attempts by politicians to raise caste-based regiments.

In my view family wealth has nothing to do with whether someone is better officer material or not. On the other hand a long tradition of Army service in the family does prepare one for a life in uniform. But again a generalisation that someone with a long tradition of Army service in the family would automatically be better officer material than someone who has none of that is also, IMO not correct.

And besides, again IMO, the competitive and career oriented spirit, is more a function of the current generation and I think it afflicts everyone, be it someone from an aristocratic lineage to someone who, like the medical representative you mentioned, who joins the Army for career opportunity.

Anyway once again thanks for a very good post.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 02 Apr 2013 14:51

amit wrote:<SNIP>However, the point is, nomenclature is something that folks should be very careful about especially when talking about a secular organisation such as the Armed forces. Using terms like baniyas and vaishyas more so in a pejorative tone is not done IMO. More so since I seem to remember (correct me if I'm wrong) there have been attempts by politicians to raise caste-based regiments.<SNIP>


Thanks for the good word.

You're right. It does not. That is why they look for Officer Like Qualities (OLQ) in you when you go for your SSB interview and not your background. Lt. Manoj Pandey, PVC (Posthumous), 1999, was son of a fruit stall vendor.

But in times gone by, it just so happened that officer class came from a certain segment and castes of the society. And certain sections of our society behaved and conducted themselves in a certain manner. It all flows from the dominant culture in a family or a particular caste/group or region. So, if you happen to be from Aggarwal caste, the chances are high that Army as a profession is not looked up to...having your business is the name of the game. Same is case of population from coastal states in India.This does not mean that a fellow from this background who clears SSB and lands in Academy is lacking in any way. There are many already serving the Services. But the point sticks.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sachin » 02 Apr 2013 15:11

rohitvats wrote:And certain sections of our society behaved and conducted themselves in a certain manner. It all flows from the dominant culture in a family or a particular caste/group or region. So, if you happen to be from ..... caste, the chances are high that Army as a profession is not looked up to...having your business is the name of the game.

Brillianty put. Rather than paint brushing an entire group of people as "fit or unfit" for a "specific type of a job", it is better to see if there are any root causes for that. But doing research would take more efforts and paint brushing is an easier game ;). I know very many communities in Kerala, who do not prefer a job in the Army or the Police. Primary reason, right from ages in their own immediate family or community no one has taken up such jobs. The next is that the task of these professionals are considered to be too risky or too cruel (eg. killing or bashing up people). These folks may prefer a life style where pay may be low (but not risky) or take up jobs which give some social standing (eg. teachers) with no great demands made on them. There are also communities who find that doing business is much better than any thing else. So kids/youngsters in these households generally follow the pattern set by the elders. The only difference I have seen is when these kids/youngsters are exposed/taken out of their comfort zone. Youngsters in cities (with their clan being a minority) do land up in jobs, which their own cousin in Mallu-land is afraid to take up. Or they get exposed to the life style of the army, through friends or extended relatives. Seen cases where the father was a non-combatant clerk in a military establishment or quasi-military establishment, but son decided to join the IA as an officer.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_22906 » 02 Apr 2013 23:06

Good post RV...

I agree to the part that it becomes a family or clan/group tradition to send their men to the army simply since that is the expected norm and represents stepping into the shoes of their fathers, forefathers

Some communities further make this tradition a part of their culture and folklore by eulogizing the "brave deeds" of their clansmen. Ofcourse like all cultures undergoing change, so shall this but over a period of time...

Another interesting point is that a lot of folks would state that the quality of intake has detriorated over a period of time. But, its the same "lower quality" officers who did a commendable job in Kargil and continue to display leadership and valor in operations even today.

Basically, the lens through which we view them needs to change since the times have changed, and will continue to change in future also

There were on and off cases of non-OLQ behavior even in the '50s, '60s, '70s and the '80s. The basic difference is that we didnt have the channels of communication and media like we have today. So a lot of these cases went unreported to the external world (but taken very seriously within the Army).

I personally feel the biggest difference between the yonder years and now is that the "izzat" and the attitude towards the Amry has drastically come down... almost to the point of it being fashionable to deride the men in uniform. Even here in BR, the default judgement passed in a lot of dicsussions is "guilty till proven innocent"

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Yayavar » 02 Apr 2013 23:46

Sanku wrote:
viv wrote:I agree on the caste stuff (like hte comment made by Baikul's father's CO) -- the baniya or brahmin comment has been made on brf many a times...which is ridiculous. Totally agree with you on it.
.


Viv-ji; there are enough Gupta Chakra winners in IA to put paid to a caste theory. :lol:

The issue that I pointed to (and thank you for understanding that) -- was the the social composition of India changed, including the pattern of wealth owning, and what were the preferences of those who had/have wealth. -- I believe we are in agreement here. That is the root of many statements of "people joined forces for a passion and not to make a living" statement. There was a class which could afford to do so and was traditionally into warfare as fundamental calling in life. I also said and I repeat -- the rich now are the baniya's/vaishya's (do not mean it negatively or in caste manner but profession wise) -- they have neither personal and rarely inherited interest in such matters. Today the class of people who could afford to do what ever they wanted to, and not work for a living, still focus their efforts on making more money.

I see this is being twisted into some other sick story by some one who can think on such lines.

Some have a reflexive need to maintain a haigographical account of some political entities, hence even basic realities are unpalatable -- thus the grouse hunting and the need to go into a long defense of IGs back stabbing of the Indian princes.

Of course since the obvious and real agenda of hiding the duplicity of certain political people needs some papering over -- generous paraphrasing and ascribing comments to others "he said this" and then proceed to knocked down what has been ascribed on to others.

We see the same game by very similarly minded people in UK thread as well.

For my part, I would call this behavior of ascribing words to others which they have not spoken as lying. But then it is probably part of the same family traditions that make me upright about some behaviors. No doubt I am being a castist here, no?


Sanku-ji: we are on the same page on the first part of your comment (as you note too). The rest has me lost since I did not doubt you. The only nit I've is on the use of caste labels though yours was not intentioned as a negative but only using an earlier stereotype. So not much I can say in response here.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 03 Apr 2013 10:36

Thanks Viv-ji.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 03 Apr 2013 21:20

Meanwhile:

Sushupti wrote:Militants gouge out both eyes of Army jawan in Jammu and Kashmir

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/milit ... r/1097144/



Look those are terrorists from TSP.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Rajput » 03 Apr 2013 21:35

rohitvats wrote:It all flows from the dominant culture in a family or a particular caste/group or region. So, if you happen to be from Aggarwal caste, the chances are high that Army as a profession is not looked up to...having your business is the name of the game. Same is case of population from coastal states in India.This does not mean that a fellow from this background who clears SSB and lands in Academy is lacking in any way. There are many already serving the Services. But the point sticks.


If you go to a recruitment rally in, say, Jhunjhunu and compare it with a rally in, say, Ahmedabad, you will see the difference.

In some communities, joining the Army is the done thing. In others, it's just not considered as important.

Speaking of officers: in the British days, parents had to explicitly give a letter saying (something to the effect) that they were aware that the Army would not pay much, and they'd be willing to financially support their son. So people who wanted the "adventure" without concern for financial gain joined the Army. Today, it's just another career; and, looking at my friends' concerns when they gave the NDA exams, apparently for those who don't want to study for the rest of their lives (little did they know that you probably have to study more in the Army than most civilian professions!).

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Yayavar » 03 Apr 2013 21:43

Sanku wrote:Thanks Viv-ji.

you are welcome...though i guess your gripe lay elsewhere based on related notes in the thread. Khair...onto other things.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Yayavar » 03 Apr 2013 22:01

Rajput wrote:
Speaking of officers: in the British days, parents had to explicitly give a letter saying (something to the effect) that they were aware that the Army would not pay much, and they'd be willing to financially support their son. So people who wanted the "adventure" without concern for financial gain joined the Army. Today, it's just another career; and, looking at my friends' concerns when they gave the NDA exams, apparently for those who don't want to study for the rest of their lives (little did they know that you probably have to study more in the Army than most civilian professions!).


:) ..I've heard that complaint too.


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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 08 Apr 2013 13:42

Army commanders' conference. Agenda and a lot of valuable data points, if true.

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/challen ... 30408.htm#

Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh, seven Army commanders, Vice Chief of Army Staff and all the Principal Staff Officers in the Army HQ, apart from director generals of various directorates like artillery, armoured, signals, operational logistics, mechanised forces, border roads and ordnance among others, will discuss and decide on important operational and administrative matters, reports RS Chauhan
Click here!

Review of the Indian Army's preparedness on the China front, progress of infrastructure development along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh are on top of the agenda of the Indian Army top brass as it began a week-long conclave in New Delhi on Monday.

Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh, seven Army commanders, Vice Chief of Army Staff and all the Principal Staff Officers in the Army HQ, apart from director generals of various directorates like artillery, armoured, signals, operational logistics, mechanised forces, border roads and ordnance among others, will discuss and decide on important operational and administrative matters, top army sources said.

Over the past two years, the Army has raised two new mountain divisions (close to 40,000 soldiers) in India's north-east and deployed them in East and West Arunachal Pradesh to augment the existing strength along the China frontier. According to sources, all existing vacancies for officers in these two divisions have finally been filled. The task of building new cantonments, refurbishing of old locations and all other related infrastructure meant for new brigades and battalions posted under these two divisions, has also been completed.

The next step, according to sources, is to build and upgrade infrastructure at Panagarh in West Bengal which has been selected as the headquarter of the proposed Mountain Strike Corps that India is planning to raise in the next five years. So far the Indian Army has three strike formations -- 1, 2 and 21 Corps -- all predominantly armoured and mechanised formations designed to launch a rapid offensive against Pakistan. There is so far no offensive formation against China.

The Indian Air Force is also planning to base some of its the newly-acquired C-130J medium lift transport aircraft at Panagarh to boost the combat lift capability of the Indian Army.

In Ladakh, one more brigade has been inducted of late in addition to the 70 Brigade which was re-inducted in Demochok, Eastern Ladakh area, in 2009 to start building up forces in the area.

However, the top brass is likely to view with concern the lack of relative progress in building and maintaining vital roads both in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh. Although the Border Roads Organisation is entrusted with this job, various factors -- lack of speedy environmental and sate government clearances, friction between Army and civilian officers of the BRO, adverse weather conditions and lack of skilled contractors -- has impeded satisfactory progress in building all-weather roads in these border areas.

Among other vital issues that the Army commanders will discuss include welfare measures for ex-servicemen, steps taken to attract young men and women into the Army, and reviewing the pace of modernisation and acquisition for the 1.1 million strong Army which has over 40 per cent of its arms and equipment veering towards obsolescence.

The Army commanders will also consider the officers commissioned in 1981(currently brigadiers) for promotion to the next rank (major general).

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 08 Apr 2013 14:09

Allow me to highlight important points:

nelson wrote:<SNIP>

Over the past two years, the Army has raised two new mountain divisions (close to 40,000 soldiers) in India's north-east and deployed them in East and West Arunachal Pradesh to augment the existing strength along the China frontier. According to sources, all existing vacancies for officers in these two divisions have finally been filled.

These are the 71 and 56 Mountain Divisions raised in NE. While 71 MD is with 4 Corps (West AP), 56 MD is with 3 Corps (Eastern AP). Both these Corps now have 3 x Mountain Divisions with them making a total of 6 Mountain Divisions in place for NE proper. To west, you have the 33 Corps with 3 x Mountain Divisions.

The Indian Air Force is also planning to base some of its the newly-acquired C-130J medium lift transport aircraft at Panagarh to boost the combat lift capability of the Indian Army.

Apart from C-130J, I expect the IAF to base C-17 also at Panagarh. Will allow for rapid response towards east as well as west. And may be, a Brigade within the MSC can used as Rapid Response Force for out of area contingency in India's eastern theater.

In Ladakh, one more brigade has been inducted of late in addition to the 70 Brigade which was re-inducted in Demochok, Eastern Ladakh area, in 2009 to start building up forces in the area.

This is the most interesting observation.

Traditionally, the deployment towards east of Zoji La Pass was as follows:

3 Infantry Division with following formations -

- 121 (I) Bde at Kargil
- 102 Infantry Bde at Partappur (for area in west covering Turtok to Sub-Sector North aka Dualat Beg Oldi (DBO)) - this is actually a brigade+ formation as it controlled the Ladakh Scouts wings (when they were not regular army).
- 114 Bde at Chushul - entire area from Pangong Tso to Dhemchok.
- 70 Bde as reserve. - This bde got sucked into Kashmir during height of CI Ops and was inducted back post haste when Kargil broke out.

Conclusion - Not much of reserves for eastern Ladakh.

Now:

- 8 Mountain Division looks after area north of Zoji La to Chorbat La (IMO). IIRC, it has three bdes under it.
- If 70 Bde has been inducted in Dhemchok (south eastern part of Ladakh), it means that the Area-of-Responsibility (AOR) for 114
Bde has reduced. Which is a very good development.
- In light of the above, IA will require one more Infantry Bde to keep as reserve under 3 Division.
- Now, IA has asked for (I) Infantry Bde for Ladakh; what remains to be seen is whether this becomes a reserve under 3 Div/14 Corps or if this is used for SSN/DBO sector. If it is the latter case, then AOR of 102 Infantry Bde will reduce and DBO/SSN will have more forces in being.
- But this also means that IA will require one more bde as reserve for eastern Ladakh.


<SNIP>
[/quote]

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 08 Apr 2013 15:23

Lt Col (Hon) Mohan Lal's private web-site on Indian Army and Territorial Army.

http://www.indianarmy.thecompleteactor.com

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Avik » 08 Apr 2013 23:52

Rohit: Good analysis, as usual.
Looks like 3 Div AoR will get split into two divs'?
Also, any ideas on whats afoot in the Cent Comm AoR

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby venku_Raj » 09 Apr 2013 16:40

Five Indian Army peacekeepers killed in South Sudan: ministry
Very sad news R.I.P

Five Indian Army peacekeepers escorting a United Nations convoy in South Sudan have been killed in an ambush by rebels, the Indian foreign ministry announced on Tuesday.


“Five peacekeepers from India with UNMISS (United Nations Mission in the Republic of South Sudan) killed in ambush in Jonglei,” foreign ministry spokesman Syed Akbaruddin wrote on Twitter.
He confirmed the deaths to AFP and said the soldiers had been killed while “escorting a UN convoy”. Around 2200 Indian army personnel are in South Sudan , 5 killed included LT Colonel , Junior commissioned officer (JCO) and three jawans . more information are awaited.


LINK

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 09 Apr 2013 20:14

Isnt it near Darfur which has an Islamist terrorist operation going on? Most likely there is a Paki hand.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 09 Apr 2013 23:05

Avik wrote:Rohit: Good analysis, as usual.
Looks like 3 Div AoR will get split into two divs'?
Also, any ideas on whats afoot in the Cent Comm AoR


Fellow Orbat junkie crawls out of his hiding place... :mrgreen:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, to fully understand the situation, we need to pick up thread from from the past. Allow me to indulge in some history.

3 Infantry Division started with 114 and 70 Infantry Bdes. 121 (I) Bde was in place by 1971 war and was placed under 3 Infantry Division.

102 Bde ( it was earlier called Sector 26) was raised in 1986 and has the AOR between Turtok in west to DBO in east. During the same period (1986), 28 Infantry Division was raised for west Ladakh (Kargil Sector). 121(I) bde was placed under it and 53 Infantry Bde of 28 Division became sector reserve for Ladakh.

However, in 1991, after the insurgency heated in Kashmir, 28 Division along with 53 Infantry Bde was inducted to south of Zoji La and today guards the important Baramula -Uri-Kanzalwam Sector. But this movement meant that Ladakh was w/o reserve of any sort.

Further, after 1993 Peace and Tranquility Agreement with China, 70 Bde was moved away from deployment on the LAC and marked as reserve for the sector. 114 Infantry Bde ended with the huge AOR with this development.

In mid 90s, even 70 Infantry Bde was moved into Valley for CI Ops leaving Ladakh w/o reserves of any sort. 70 Infantry Bde HQ was inducted back just before Kargil and had not made the complete movement when Kargil broke out.

This was the situation before 1999.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8 Mountain Division moved to Kargil sector with 3 x Mountain Bdes - these were the 56/192/79 Mountain Bdes. After Kargil, the Division stayed put in the region.

Which brings me to the question - Did 8 Mountain Division absorb 121 (I) Infantry Bde? If this is the case, then western Ladakh has 4 x infantry bdes and this raises couple of possibilities.

However, the above means that 3 Division has 102/114/70 Infantry Bdes under it. We know 102 Infantry Bde is fully committed. The news about 70 Bde moving to Dhemchok in 2009 (along with 114 Bde at Chushul) means that 3 Division did not have reserve formation.

What is possible is that given that western Ladakh had 4 x Bde with induction of 8 Mountain Division, 1 x Infantry Bde was being used a dual reserve for eastern and western Ladakh. This situation it seems has been corrected with reserves each for western and eastern Ladakh. Which is a good situation to be in especially when we know what was the force dispensation in the past.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AOR rationalization:

Well, given the nature of geography of the Ladakh Sector, it needs more forces in being.

If you ask me, this is what I would want:

(a) The DBO sector needs to be beefed up. IMO, geography (along with depth occupied by PLA in 1962) places us in a disadvantageous position in DBO. The road link is treacherous and we lack depth of any sort here. We will simply need to dig in our heels and defend to best extent possible. The distance from Pratappur (location of 102 Bde HQ) to this sector is simply too large and this is further propounded by the terrain and surface network. In case of a shooting match with PLA, 102 Bde would have its hands full to ensure safety of Siachen and manage the western border in the sensitive Turtok sector in west.

I would ideally want an (I) Bde to manage the area north of Chang-Chenmo Valley and up to DBO/Sub-Sector North.

(b) Area inclusive of Changchenmo - Pangong Tso - Chushul - Spanggur need to be under one Division. Any break-out of PLA in the Chushul-Spanggur Gap area would mean that they can turn south and threaten the rear of troops in the Dhemchok area. Look for Dungti south of Spanggur Gap and its location astride communication axis between Nyoma to Dhemchok.

(c) South of this, 1 x Division is required for the entire Dhemchok sector including the area where Ladakh-Tibet-HP boundary meets. As I have said earlier, the Indus enters here and the area is flat and wide. As the Indus moves further towards Leh, the river valley does narrow down at places but importantly, there is no mountain range/physical barrier perpendicular to this path. This gives PLA to mass large scale attack on the IA and develop a threat to Leh.

(d) (I) Mountain Bde for Sugar Sector in Himachal Pradesh. At present, we maintain a weak force in the area. This is a very high mountain territory which will not permit any large scale movement of troops on either side.

The (I) Armored Bde will give us some defensive capability in the region.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 09 Apr 2013 23:17

I want Panagarh ASAP.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chaanakya » 09 Apr 2013 23:46

Its being upgraded. Will take some time though.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Kakarat » 10 Apr 2013 20:58

India should create something similar to the French Foreign Legion and use them for these peacekeeping missions

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Singha » 11 Apr 2013 09:36

has the IA done anything to supplement and replace its Gypsy and Jongas? are Jongas still in service?

few yrs back airwaves had huffy, tuffy, axe and some tata & AL 4x4 models in a lineup. what happened?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Austin » 11 Apr 2013 09:39

What ever happened to the 4x4 Light Vehical Competition/LMV , We havent heard any update on it since years now ..... that was suppose to replace the Gypsys and Jongas

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 11 Apr 2013 10:02

From Orbat.Com:

Indian Army A long time ago, 51 years to be precise, the Indian Army was ordered to expand from 10 divisions to 25. This was consequent on the 1962 Sino-Indian War, which ended badly for India. The thinking was that India needed ten mountain and one high-plateau infantry (Ladakh) divisions, and that since Pakistan would react to the Indian raisings, four more divisions should be added. All 15 divisions were raised by 1966, within four years. Many of the new divisions even took part in the 1965 War with Pakistan.

· Now fast-forward to about 2008. Thanks to non-stop aggressiveness on China’s part, the Army asked for 7 to 11 new divisions. In seven years, four will have been raised (2010-2017). The speed with which new formations can be raised depends on the existing base. So if India could expand by 250% in four years, readers may be entitled to wonder why seven years are required for a 12% increase in divisions.

· One reason is clearly no one in India, least of all the government, feels any sense of urgency. After all, if you can take 30-years to plan to order new medium artillery guns – no one said anything about placing an order or bringing them into service – then clearly we cannot use the term “snail’s pace” without insulting snails. A garden snail, we are told, can cover 55-yards an hour www.snail-world.com/Snail-Facts.html So a hypothetical snail going at it 24/7, would cover 14,000-km+ in 30 years, which is quite respectable, if you think about it.

· As we have discussed in earlier posts, two of the divisions, already raised, have gone to reinforce the northeast border with China, and the two planned with be an offensive reserve. Given the increasing mobility of Chinese ground forces, even as they lose large numbers of men, and given that for Tibet China is no longer the end of the world, because roads, airfields, and rail lines have been constructed in abundance, the additional divisions are needed. China operates on a plateau, and is easily able to move its forces west-east thanks to new roads and railroads. India’s side of the border is very rugged, with a large number of rivers flowing north-south. So there are steep, narrow valleys that prevent lateral movement. India, therefore, has to deploy considerable manpower.

· But in this new enthusiasm for the China front, India is exhibiting the same ADHD for which the US is famous. Since we are using psychological terms, ADHD now covers hyperactivity without paying attention and not paying attention even as you sit in one place (the old ADD). Realistically, ADHD applies to the US, because the Americans rush around madly without remembering why they are rushing in the first place. The Indians are more like the cute French bathroom drawing where you have a cute kid sitting on the po, with the caption “Sometimes I sit and thinks, sometimes I just sits”.

· What the Indians are forgetting is they have a large infantry army deployed against Pakistan. This force is obviously not terrible mobile, which makes it of limited utility in a short war – which is Indian strategic doctrine. Why? No one has ever been able to explain. There are mumbles about “oh, within a week the superpowers and UN will step in to stop the fighting”. Never occurs to the Indians ask what sort of power do they think they are if the superpowers and UN can force us to ceasefire. Puts us on par with Lesotho. Or are we insulting Lesotho? Pretty pathetic.

· But going by Indian doctrine, for any decisive result in a short period the entire plains deployment against Pakistan has to be mechanized, just as Warsaw Pact and NATO forces on the Central Front were fully mechanized. Consider. From south of Rajouri in SW Kashmir to the Arabia Sea India deploys 12 divisions on the line and nine in a “strike reserve”. The number of armored divisions is precisely three – one for each of the strike corps. So clearly India is still fighting the North African campaign of seventy years ago. This is pointless from another viewpoint, aside from the self-limitation of a short war. Soft infantry cannot operate in an NBC environment; when Pakistan becomes a real N-power – as opposed to the mostly fake N-power it is today, sending infantry divisions into Pakistan will be suicide.

· In fact, if we were more cynical, we’d think India is talking itself out of taking on Pakistan at all, except in the mountains. Now, of course mechanized divisions cost a lot more than infantry divisions. With Russian tanks at $6-to-8 million, BMPs at $2-million or more, and SP artillery from $3-to-4 million, it takes a lot of money to equip 18 infantry divisions. Though of course if India mechanized, you wouldn’t need 21 divisions against Pakistan in the plains, but lets not complicate this debate. Additionally, ALL vehicles operating in an NBC environment of high-speed warfare need to be mechanized, so for each division you’re buying at least 3000 tracked carriers for reconnaissance, signals, medical, military police, supply, engineers and so on.

· So: not cheap as we said. But India has a $2-trillion GDP. It spends very little on defense for a country with such long and uniformly hostile land borders, not to forget a rising naval rival power that will soon threaten India’s sea frontiers. India will have to impose discipline on its other spending to free up money for defense, preferably it would embrace sensible economic policies allowing an 85+ annual growth as well, so that the country can have guns AND butter.

· Now, the Indian peace lobby – which we respect for their sincerity, BTW – will say but why do we have to be a military power in the first place? Truthfully, we don’t. We can create trip-wire forces for the frontiers, backed by tactical N-weapons. NATO did that at one time, in the 1950s and into the 1960s. It didn’t work out so well for reasons we can discuss if someone wants. But it can be done. It s also possible, by giving up some of our territory as claimed by China and Pakistan, to bring about a diplomatic solution. Just as long as people are aware of the costs.


But if India wants to be a strong power, that means a strong military too.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_19648 » 11 Apr 2013 13:26

^^Good article Rohit, thanks for that, also throws light on the lack of strategic thinking on the Indian side.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby VinodTK » 11 Apr 2013 19:00

Spoofed: Army officers get RAW calls from Pakistan sleuths

Callers pose as Indian intel sleuths to extract key info.

Intelligence operatives in Pakistan have been making “spoofed” phone calls to Indian Army officers using Delhi-based numbers to extract information from them. This has been revealed in an alert issued recently by the chief of the Indian Military Intelligence to all army establishments.

These calls are disguised as enquiry from officers of the Research and Analysis Wing or the Intelligence Bureau or the army. The communique said it has been observed that “Pakistan based intelligence operatives(PIO) are calling staff officers to senior officers at all levels to extract information.”

Further, it has come to notice that “these ‘spoofed calls’ were being made from Delhi-based defence zones and on many occasions the caller disguised himself as officer from the RAW, IB or IAF leading the recipient to accept the genuineness of caller on face value,”the MI communication claims. This breach of security came to light after the February 21 blast in Hyderabad, when a telephone call originating from Pakistan to an officer of the National Security Guard in New Delhi sought information about the blast. The caller, identifying himself as an officer of the Army’s Military Intelligence(MI), asked the officer whether the NSG chief had left for the blast spot.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby svinayak » 11 Apr 2013 21:38

These kind of penetration was seen only during the cold war days

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby kish » 12 Apr 2013 03:04

venku_Raj wrote:
Five Indian Army peacekeepers killed in South Sudan: ministry
Very sad news R.I.P

Five Indian Army peacekeepers escorting a United Nations convoy in South Sudan have been killed in an ambush by rebels, the Indian foreign ministry announced on Tuesday.


“Five peacekeepers from India with UNMISS (United Nations Mission in the Republic of South Sudan) killed in ambush in Jonglei,” foreign ministry spokesman Syed Akbaruddin wrote on Twitter.
He confirmed the deaths to AFP and said the soldiers had been killed while “escorting a UN convoy”. Around 2200 Indian army personnel are in South Sudan , 5 killed included LT Colonel , Junior commissioned officer (JCO) and three jawans . more information are awaited.


LINK


He sacrificed his life for the service of the nation. This did not deter his children from joining the forces.

Singh, along with four other soldiers, was killed on Tuesday when the UN convoy they were escorting came under fire from rebels.

According to them, his colleagues who were part of the convoy that got ambushed narrated to the family how just last week they and the 51-year-old Singh had survived another ambush.

Singh's 21-year-old son, R S Pilani, struggled as he recalled what he had learnt about his father's valour. "Some of my father's colleagues who arrived with his body told us that he received a fatal bullet wound on the right side of his chest just as he was trying to change the magazine of his gun in a lying position. However, before he got killed, my father had shot dead 12 out of the 200-odd rebels who had surrounded the convoy of 32 officers. Clearly they were outnumbered. He died even before the nursing assistant, who was barely 30 metres away, could arrive," said Pilani.

Overcoming his sorrow at least for some moments, Pilani said, "I could still see a smile on his face when his corpse reached the village on Thursday morning." Undeterred by the death, Pilani, like his dad, wants to become an army officer and is undergoing training at the National Defence Academy, Pune.

Singh is survived by his wife, a daughter, who is a flight lieutenant with the Indian Air Force, and two sons.


My father shot dead 12 rebels before he got killed, Lt Col Mahipal Singh's son says

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 12 Apr 2013 03:13

This is like Saragrahi all over again. A force of 32 attacked by 200 and comes out with 5 killed.

RIP saheb and your jawans!

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Sanku » 12 Apr 2013 09:42

Thank you Sir, you are India's pride, prestige and safety. You are what keeps us whole and sane. May Ma Bharati shower her blessing on you and your kinsmen.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vasu raya » 12 Apr 2013 09:56

Humble respect to their sacrifice, however aren't light weight BPJs standard issue with UN contingents? would heli gunships have served as a quick backup force? we see similar circumstances in Maoist affected areas back home.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby VinodTK » 12 Apr 2013 16:58

427-yr-old Mughal Road gives army security jitters
Security forces have pressed an alarm button saying the 427-year-old Mughal road, which is being reopened to provide alternative connectivity to the land-locked Kashmir, may be used by the militants for reviving terrorism in border areas.

“There is a need for keeping continuous watch on the Mughal Road which may be utilised for movement of logistics, weapon and funds by the extremists,” said Danesh Rana, deputy inspector general of police (Rajouri-Poonch range).
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vasu raya » 13 Apr 2013 10:36

More details ...

slain-indian-peacekeepers-in-south-sudan-were-outnumbered

wonder how the officer got hit in the chest inspite of BPJs

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ArmenT » 13 Apr 2013 10:47

^^^
Not all BPJs protect all sides of the torso. Some protect only the frontal and back area mainly. So it is possible to get hit in the side and not have adequate protection there. The arm pit area is a particularly vulnerable area in many BPJ designs. If the vest doesn't fit well, a bullet could also pass through the gap between the neck and the BPJ (especially if in a prone position). Finally, different BPJs have different ratings. Some can stop rifle bullets, others only pistol bullets. Some only stop lead bullets, others can stop steel bullets as well. You get the idea.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby uddu » 14 Apr 2013 07:18

The Army can go for the SAMHO missile rather than the spike.
That tender be cancelled and buy Indian category be given the preference.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vasu raya » 14 Apr 2013 12:24

ArmenT wrote:^^^
Not all BPJs protect all sides of the torso. Some protect only the frontal and back area mainly. So it is possible to get hit in the side and not have adequate protection there. The arm pit area is a particularly vulnerable area in many BPJ designs. If the vest doesn't fit well, a bullet could also pass through the gap between the neck and the BPJ (especially if in a prone position). Finally, different BPJs have different ratings. Some can stop rifle bullets, others only pistol bullets. Some only stop lead bullets, others can stop steel bullets as well. You get the idea.


Thanks ArmenT, one hopes there would be a full de-briefing session that would be made public and clarifies that there is no mismatch between the weapons the rebels are using vs. the BPJs the UN contingent had. The statistics on the protection offered by various BPJ designs in a frontal assault position and in prone position should make matters clear. Kargil was another instance where the soldiers were moving exposed on the forward slopes of the mountains and took bullets in the face-neck area.

Anyways, main title of the article here Indian jawans killed in Sudan took on rebels for one hour: UN says that they fought for 1 hour, thats more than enough time for a heli-borne or a turbo-prop based squad to arrive on the scene as re-inforcements


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