LCA News and Discussions

[RKumar]

Now or later, they have to dirty their hands by working with imperfect product and contribute to make it perfect.

Which is what IAF is doing with Tejas making its hand dirty by supporting and perfecting the product.

I don't feel they are doing it willingly but are forced by MoD and GoI. If they were doing it willingly, I would have never heard comments like 3 legged cheeta from IAF chief on IOC day. That sums up their attitude. (I am not saying it for IAF, but people who are in the driving seat).

Their numbers might be going down but capability not.

[Austin]

If IAF had no intention to support Tejas they wouldnt have invested in Mk2 and ordered 80 odd aircraft even without the first one taking to air. They would have said ok fly then let me decide depending how well it flies and it meets my ASQR requirement.

Neither IAF or ADA or MOD is fully without its faults when it comes to Tejas but no one ever ran without falling.

The only thing they need to do now is support Kaveri Engine program, dedicate 2 aircraft to Kaveri and flight qualify it and build a squadron around Kaveri to see how it fares up on maintenance , TBO and other stuff . Kaveri may be underpowered or it may be broken , it may generate T:W of 6:1 or may have lower TBO and service life or have higher SFC but that is how all engine development around the world started by limping and then learning to walk.

Nobody knows what tomorrow holds for engine development in India but what ever it is it would be built upon Kaveri engine program , loosing it would be setting back the entire indiginous aircraft engine program by decades.

[RKumar]

If IAF had no intention to support Tejas they wouldnt have invested in Mk2 and ordered 80 odd aircraft even without the first one taking to air. They would have said ok fly then let me decide depending how well it flies and it meets my ASQR requirement.

May be I missed it but when did IAF ordered 80 odd planes... there was a commitment if it meet ASQR then 126 planes. Which they lowered it to odd 80.

Neither IAF or ADA or MOD is fully without its faults when it comes to Tejas but no one ever ran without falling.

For a change it is good that people realise that it is not only one sided problem.

The only thing they need to do now is support Kaveri Engine program, dedicate 2 aircraft to Kaveri and flight qualify it and build a squadron around Kaveri to see how it fares up on maintenance , TBO and other stuff . Kaveri may be underpowered or it may be broken , it may generate T:W of 6:1 or may have lower TBO and service life or have higher SFC but that is how all engine development around the world started by limping and then learning to walk.

Nobody knows what tomorrow holds for engine development in India but what ever it is it would be built upon Kaveri engine program , loosing it would be setting back the entire indiginous aircraft engine program by decades.

Can't put it better then that and completely agree.

[Austin]

My understanding is we ordered 100 GE F414 Engine for 80 Tejas Mk2 which includes 20 reserve ,i could be wrong on numbers though

[RKumar]

Well it could be that odd 40 are for NLCA (plus may be as replacements ... just kidding.)

[vic]

I agree with Karnad, scrap MRCA and order LCA

[RoyG]

The french wont lose a $22 billion deal. India needs to replace its jags and mig 27s. LCA will take care of the Mig 21. Su-30 is India's Katar. We need to get Kaveri working.

[disha]

I agree with Karnad, scrap MRCA and order LCA

Not quite. Scrap Mig 21 and put in LCA mk1/mk2. This itself will take a decade+ starting from 2015.

MMRCA is bringing in a twin engine delta + replacement for other aircrafts. Let the designers study it to their content and incorporate new and improved ideas into AMCA. Think of MMRCA as a "diffused technology infusion". AMCA itself will not come into being till 2025 (more likely 2030).

Interestingly, LCA which was billed as Mig 21 replacement is now being compared with M2K. Wow.

And if M2K+LCA+Rafale+Su30MKI forms the backbone, IAF will be the largest airforce in the world with experience on delta wings (M2K+Rafale+LCA)!

[NRao]

Some time back I used to think get rid of the MMRCA and bring in the original thinker: M2K.

But now I am finding that the French are the problem, in both the M2K upgrade and now with the MMRCA.

So, when some of us suggest going with the LCA, it is not so much as replacing the MiG-21 or some other plane with the LCA, it is to drive some sense into the French to say they are going beyond reasonable reason on both the M2k upgrade and the MMRCA deals.

[Sanku]

I agree with Karnad, scrap MRCA and order LCA

No Karnad agrees with you, you have been asking for that for quite some time before him now.

[Singha]

All of our 110 odd mig21 bisons will be retired in around 5 yrs time. And we will at most have 40 mk1 tejas for replacement, with the mk2 tejas perhaps approaching ioc and not cleared for full production.

That is a problem nobody is talking about.

The mrca will replace the older lots of jaguars and all the mig27 whose retirements will likely start in 5 yrs time.

[SaiK]

I agree with whomsoever to cancel "this MMRCA deal" and order more of the LCA and its tranches. . LCA-Mk3 shall be la M4K. Dueal GE414 is fine! till K makes a meaningful entry.

[ramana]

The eternal indecision and long development times due to slow and low release of funds is a UPA CBM with US and TSP. They want to disarm and invite a military strike.

Read Luttwak's dictum "If you want peace prepare for war, if you want war then disarm!'

[SaiK]

I want war with the dependency nation, and peace with self-reliance!

[fanne]

How about get 120 SU30MKI and the savings to LCA mark3

[SaiK]

I think, MKI requirements are correctly satisfied, and the focus should be more on satisfying LCA needs, where IAF feels it is a 4 legged performance animal to win wars. FoC and induction is vital for LCA to advance to the next level. We have been doing the same mistake with Arjun, where requirements keep changing, with one big single story line.

A phased or tranche based development is vital for survival and self reliance. We need multiple story lines, that ends with a phase or tranche or marked product cycle. Else, the big scope creep, they will keep asking next generation always, and increasing the firang dependency to satisfy some special interest groups who are benefited with such dependency and alliance.

[Sanku]

All of our 110 odd mig21 bisons will be retired in around 5 yrs time. And we will at most have 40 mk1 tejas for replacement, with the mk2 tejas perhaps approaching ioc and not cleared for full production.

That is a problem nobody is talking about.

The mrca will replace the older lots of jaguars and all the mig27 whose retirements will likely start in 5 yrs time.

+1

Just because our domestic program has finally started crawling on its knees, asking it to now run marathons is crazy.

[vic]

Question to import loving jingos:-

How many Airbus 320 had been produced & were flying when Indian confirmed order was placed?

How many Boeing Dreamliners had been produced & were flying when Indian confirmed order was placed?

How many Scorpene Submarines were produced when India placed USD 5 Billion order?

How aircraft carriers were produced by Russia when we placed order for Gorky?

[vic]

I agree with Karnad, scrap MRCA and order LCA

No Karnad agrees with you, you have been asking for that for quite some time before him now.

[Sanku]

Question to import loving jingos:-

How aircraft carriers were produced by Russia when we placed order for Gorky?

Not import loving Jingo, but the above is slightly wrong isnt it. Gorky was already there in one form or the other before we placed an order for it.

Also Russia has a long history of producing A/C carriers. Also you are comparing a new product from a existing stable, where as in India's case both the stable and the product is new.

These things do make a difference in confidence in a new product, unfortunate reality.

[pentaiah]

Folks
Don't get carried away
Boeing Lockheed MDonald Douglas
Fokker, Bristol Siddley etc have proven record of delivering flying planes made from concept

HAL
ADA
GTRE
Have long ways to go
Only ISRO with PSLV has impeccable reputation
So stop comparing else posters credibility will be discounted
By huge margin
To be positive enthusiastic is different from exaggeration
like in commie regimes or TS Paki land

[vina]

Not import loving Jingo, but the above is slightly wrong isnt it. Gorky was already there in one form or the other before we placed an order for it.

Also Russia has a long history of producing A/C carriers.

Quit trolling and get back to the armor thread. This thread still has some sanity (or maybe it did until you showed up) .

Yeah . Right. LOOOOng history of producing carriers, like how many (Kuzentsov class was the first real carrier) . The Adm Gorshov specifically and Kiev class in general are considered failures with piss poor reliability of engines (Gorky was a burned out hulk from a boiler explosion), the entire Kiev class was barely operational. And still we went ahead and bought that and paid some $2.5B extra for that rubbish!

[KrishnaK]

All of our 110 odd mig21 bisons will be retired in around 5 yrs time. And we will at most have 40 mk1 tejas for replacement, with the mk2 tejas perhaps approaching ioc and not cleared for full production.

That is a problem nobody is talking about.

The mrca will replace the older lots of jaguars and all the mig27 whose retirements will likely start in 5 yrs time.

Not a 1:1 replacement ? 40 LCA MK1 == 100 mig21

[isubodh]

If RIL can tie up with Dassault for Rafale production, is it not feasible to have RIL or someone similar to have a second production line for Tejas to supplement slow rate of rate of production at HAL ?

[Singha]

there is very little money to be made in Tejas. the engines are supplied as complete units by GE. the radar & derby missiles by israel and we have enough R73 stocks. most LRUs and components plus the airframe itself is local. you can potentially still make some money...enough for biryani in some garden restaurant with strong whisky smells in the huts...but not more.

where is the money bhai?

compare to rafale - every nut and bolt will be imported for atleast 5 yrs, and then maybe down to 50% over next window of 10 yrs. plus hyper expensive munitions and upgrade costs that will make the M2K / Scorpene costs look like morning breakfast in the local darshini vs dinner in Oberoi
throw in 100s of production machines and test tools as well...made lovingly in france, italy and germany for sure.

[Austin]

where is the money bhai?

Well as TATRA deal has shown you can still make a good money even with private indian players involved.

Lets says hypothetically we give Tejas to be manufactured to Private player , They would import the same engine at x price and sell it at y price , the difference between y-x is their margin , similarly LRU indian or imported can be sold at inflated price , potentially airframe can be built on year on year at a higher price , the private player can say the cost of material , manufacturing , electricity , manpower is rising every year and private player has to pay more to retain talent and pay hefty check and bonuses to retain them. Even bids to x y z company that makes Z component for LCA can yeald money by paying a amount to MOD or Private player to lower the bid or change the bid file before opening in between before opening up which is common practice in any government bidding process today, they call that transparent bidding process.

All the above will be charged as premium to IAF in the guise of involving private player in order to make the process more efficient and transparent .....experience has shown that private player run their company for one reason which is profit and YOY they need to show that profit to their share holders .... did you read Pentagon complaining that LM was sucking every dime for JSF program.

So to say there will be no corruption if we stop importing and involve only indian player with indiginous equipment is false , IMO Corruption is a Human issue and systematic problem in India. Its like if you pay the traffic havaldar Rs 200 to get out for breaking the signal its a corruption and it does not get noted any where but you still pay and he makes money.

Ofcourse some one would says Tatas and Ambanis making money out of IAF is good for India over Dassult or LM or Sukhoi because they are Indians , in the end the tax payers suffer no matter who gains.

[vinod]

Ofcourse some one would says Tatas and Ambanis making money out of IAF is good for India over Dassult or LM or Sukhoi because they are Indians , in the end the tax payers suffer no matter who gains.

Agree with most of it, but the above its only partially correct. Money in Indians pockets is always better than foreigners. If Ambani gets it, he will spend atleast some of it in India and find its way back as tax to the govt. In case of foreigners, all the money is gone out of the country!

[Singha]

>> Well as TATRA deal has shown you can still make a good money even with private indian players involved.

afaik the entire kit was imported in SKD form and assembled and painted with BEML green paint here. were the parts chain of tatras ever localized and sourced from our own automotive food chain?

[Lalmohan]

^^^ thats why the paquis are smarter than us, they have been green-painting from the beginning! we have not yet caught up with advanced paquonomics...

[Austin]

afaik the entire kit was imported in SKD form and assembled and painted with BEML green paint here. were the parts chain of tatras ever localized and sourced from our own automotive food chain?

Singha guru it doesnt really matter if its CKD , SKD , KLPD or what ever , the larger point i was trying to make is corruption issue is not specfic to imported systems you can easily make as much money from entirely indian built system even if its 100 % indiginous .... The traffic guy standing is 100 % indigenous and so are we but he makes money from us and we are willing to pay that is corruption.

AFAIK the TARTA issue we BEML simply assembled it and IA paid more then they could have got from outright purchase.

Never mind off topic carry on with LCA debate

[pentaiah]

Sanku
Generally I don't get tangled in skirmishes
But on aircraft carriers USSR has least credibility
Till 1969 they had no serious capability, even in the 1970s their Naval doctrine relied more on missile ships and bombers to take out carriers

The somewhat ironic conclusion is that despite the high-profile public controversy in the United States, this debate has had far less substantive impact on the USN's aircraft carrier program than the equivalent, silent clash of views has had on the Russian Navy's program. The USN got its fleet of supercarriers; the Soviet (and now the Russian) Navy was forced to accept a series of design compromises consistently falling short of Navy goals. Although there were the expected dissenters in Navy uniform, the final objective of the Russian Navy's carrier program was never meant to be the little Kievs. Today, even the vaunted Admiral Kuznetsov, though it does represent a monumental leap forward in Russian carrier aviation, is a rather anemic vessel when compared to the original design -- which was drafted over twenty years ago.
......

This resulted in the most ambitious design specification for any Russian aircraft carrier to date. Named Project OREL, this nuclear-powered ship would have displaced 80,000 tons and carried seventy conventional (that is, non-vertical takeoff/landing) aircraft. These aircraft would serve in an American-style multipurpose air wing, capable of fulfilling the fighter, attack, and airborne early-warning roles. There were some differences between the OREL vessel and an American supercarrier, primarily in OREL's own battery of dedicated antiship missiles (which continued to appear on Russian carrier designs). However, the philosophies underlying both designs were very similar, a point underscored by an order reportedly from Defense Minister Grechko himself: "Why are you splitting hairs here? Make an aircraft carrier like the Americans have, with that kind of aircraft fleet."
.....

There may also be another, more subtle reason for this choice of terminology. According to Soviet doctrine, aviation cruisers were intended not to serve as the centerpiece of naval strike capability (as the USN regards its own carriers), but as a supporting element for other naval operations. These included the concept of "pro-submarine warfare", in which surface task groups would seek to disrupt enemy ASW activity. This supporting role would seem to make a separate, "special" designation of "aircraft carrier" vaguely inappropriate.


......

http://www.rjlee.org/rcar.html


Also added later



End part shows Russian carrier landing of SU
But notice the seamanship of the Russian frigate in rough seas

Admins if irrelevant please chop the video

[Virupaksha]

There is an explicit reason for USSR not developing carriers, the turkey straits.

[Nitesh]

another whine fest
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/tejas-aircra ... 782-3.html

[member_22539]

News articles like this are nothing short of treason because of their attempts to misrepresent and berate indigenous projects. This country needs to set an example by hanging a few of these "journalists" for treason.

[krishnan]

flown only by test pilots ???? next time car companies should hire the writer to test drive their cars

[Sancho]

The problem is you are expect the LCA to be a literal WW2 style zerstorer aka heavy fighter, bogged down with huge payloads, whereas in reality it need not have these.

Only because I want it to carry 2 more missiles, to have a modern self defence capability in all roles?

Similarly, a LCA Tejas, with 4 A2A, a centerline tank, can still carry 2 LGBs and a LDP. That will be sufficient for strike missions against Pakistan.

The centerline tank holds just 725l of fuel and the MK1 don't even have IFR capability and you think IAF send them with a load of of more that 2.3t cross border? Why would IAF take such a risk anyway, when they have upgraded Mig 29 and M2Ks, with more range, weapon carriage capability and a similar technical level? They won't, because the MK1 in this role and with these limitation would offer the worst performance of their multi role fighters.

This self escort stuff is also a bit overblown.

You are highly mistaken, because credible self defence capabilities guaranties that IAF need less fighters for a single mission! During Kargil for example:

A typical bombing mission would involve 4 Mirages from 7 Squadron loaded with dumb bombs leaving a base in Punjab together with a two seat Mirage loaded with a LGB and Laser Designating pod. This 5 ship would rendezvous with 3 aircraft of 1 Squadron carrying Beyond Visual Range Weapons (Super 530D), operating out of another base. This rendezvous point would change on a mission to mission basis and once joined up, one escort aircraft would return. Once over Jammu and Kashmir they would be joined by Mig29’s giving top cover.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... PCamp.html

With the M2K-5 IAF wouldn't need the additional 3 x Mirage as escorts (or the Migs), since the 5 x Mirage in strike role would be able to carry LGBs, LDPs and 4-5 x AAMs each too!
That also shows that your example about operational costs is wrong, since more fighters per mission => higher operational costs!

Next, the statements about the Mirage 2000-5. There is no confirmation yet, that Indian Mirage 2000's will have 2 additional pylons added or opened up on the fuselage

Sure, we won't go for the normal Mirage upgrade path and will purposely limit the hardpoints.

[Sancho]

My understanding is we ordered 100 GE F414 Engine for 80 Tejas Mk2 which includes 20 reserve ,i could be wrong on numbers though

80 x MK2 is the likely scenario for IAF, since combined with the 40 x MK1 it adds to the 6 x squads that they wanted. The other 20 x engines though, must include MK2 prototypes for IAF and IN and might not be aimed on reserve.

I agree with whomsoever to cancel "this MMRCA deal" and order more of the LCA and its tranches. . LCA-Mk3 shall be la M4K. Dueal GE414 is fine! till K makes a meaningful entry.

Which means to follow the way we did it with the Jags and keep producing it even though it's completely outdated and next to useless!
We have to put the bias as side and think about it more rationally! Even the production of the 80 x MK2s is estimated to take at least till 2022, so do you want to keep LCA producing until 2030? What operational advantages does it offer then, especially compared to the other available fighters in IAF? What future upgrade potential does it have, to make it still useful in that time?

Yes, LCA is an important project for India, that's why it is important to get it ready and inducted into IAF as soon as possible. But we can't deny the fact that this project is hugly delayed, which reduced the potential it actually had and we can't continue to order it only because of pride reasons.
In a time when IAF already inducts FGFA, might get at least armed Rustom or even AURA drones and still has the options to go for more Rafales (with more future potential as a platform), with no operational advantage, why should we order more LCAs?

[Sanku]

Sanku
Generally I don't get tangled in skirmishes
But on aircraft carriers USSR has least credibility
Till 1969 they had no serious capability, even in the 1970s their Naval doctrine relied more on missile ships and bombers to take out carriers

I agree Pentaiah ji, of the power which field a/c carriers, Russia is not in the same league as US. However, my point was limited, that Gorky did already exist. Also Rus does have experience of building a/c carriers.

My points about having a new product form old stable was a generic point, which I believe we are anyway in agreement over.

[Sanku]

To be positive enthusiastic is different from exaggeration
like in commie regimes or TS Paki land

Fully agree.

[SaiK]

Sancho there is nothing called, keep doing it without a purpose. Unless you do it, there is nothing called experience. Nothing is overdone and this is not correct in a process oriented setup, unless you are thinking corruption and lethargy here. Process correction happens consistently, and people don't goto sleep from marut to lca. if you have done that, the process itself does not belong to the country, and one can remain slaves to firangs for ever.