Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[arnab]

I would request you to refer the post by @rohitvats where the '800' Arjuns are originally postulated . In general you can go through the discussion of past ten pages.

I did. All postulations aside - Arjun numbers (or lack of them) were predicated by a rise in T-90 numbers. Do tell me if the T-90s currently in IA service have the additional features being 'requested' by the IA for the Arjun Mk2?

[amit]

Just to add to the above.

All this talk about how well suited the Arjun is for desert warfare is not a positive spin for the Indian tank. Rather it's a spin to hide IMO a glaring deficiency in the T90 - it's inability to function in high temperatures.

When you consider the fact that the tank's theater of operations is the Indian subcontinent where summer temperatures in most parts range between 40-50 degrees C, I would think that's a major deficiency. Much more than the Arjun's alleged inability to cross bridges in Punjab.

[amit]

....."cheaper than other tanks",but which tanks? T-90s or western heavyweights?

As NRao said unnecessary muddying of waters. But if you insist. When you bring western heavyweights into the equation then you'd have to first do a calculation of what the TCO (total cost of ownership) would be for a Western tank vis a vis T90s.

I know for Russian products everybody gets uncomfortable when the talk veers to TCO or lifetime cost as opposed to upfront payments.

However, such calculation are needed to made before we can start comparing apples to apples.
A case in point: The C17s, upfront, cost a bomb compared to the IL76. However if one were to do a TCO over the 30 years or so the planes would be flying and also incorporate the minimum uptime guarantees and spare parts delivery then the results might be quite surprising. It's not for nothing that the IAF has been so enthusiastic about the C17s vis a vis IL76s.

And yes if you want to compare with the Arjun after a comparison with the T90s one has to factor in the learning curve which the Arjun has been in terms of capabilities and technologies mastered. For auditing purposes dollar numbers can be added to these as well.

These will be needed to replace the large numbers of T-72s and upgraded T-72s.

Philip Saar, a simple question: Why can't Arjun replace the T72 today? Why at all go in for an expensive and questionable upgrade when you have a home made tank which has comprehensively proven itself to be better than the T90?

[Sanku]

IN was not born with a design bureau - they took a decision to be involved

Its not as simple as that. DRDO does not want to cede control. DRDO and PSUs will not report to IA/IAF. Its not a matter of decision IA took.

IA (at least the armor) pretended they had design skills but bullsh1tting about FMBT

IA has pretended no such thing, they are only setting vision as a user. Otherwise DRDO or actually those self appointed speakers on behalf of DRDO with a agenda to run down IA, will come back and say, "you did not tell us 10000000000000 years ago that you will need this 100000000000 years later"

because IN was being run on a shoe string budget

that indeed maybe the solution for the IA and IAF

It was also being run on shoe string threat perception and security tasks were minimal.

Does IA also have that choice?

[Sanku]

I would request you to refer the post by @rohitvats where the '800' Arjuns are originally postulated . In general you can go through the discussion of past ten pages.

Excellent posts Nelson.

[nelson]

Just to add to the above.

All this talk about how well suited the Arjun is for desert warfare is not a positive spin for the Indian tank. Rather it's a spin to hide IMO a glaring deficiency in the T90 - it's inability to function in high temperatures.

When you consider the fact that the tank's theater of operations is the Indian subcontinent where summer temperatures in most parts range between 40-50 degrees C, I would think that's a major deficiency. <snip>

That is your speculation and is totally wrong. See this...

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2010/10/pho ... ceive.html

[amit]

That is your speculation and is totally wrong. See this...

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2010/10/pho ... ceive.html

Maybe I'm a bit dumb. But I seem to miss the relevance of that link to what I posted - which in effect is that the T90s have had issues with high temperatures and the Arjun is publicised as being good for desert warfare - with the implication it is not good for the plains of Punjab.

These tanks are part of the 31 Armoured Division. If I'm not mistaken isn't that division tasked to look after the Punjab sector? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[nelson]

I will repeat what I had posted few days back. Restricting a particular strike corps or its principal battle-group to a specific area of operation would impose significant strategic rigidity. In any scenario, the army HQ would want to retain its flexibility of launching the principal battle groups anywhere along the IB.

In case an explanation with reference to context is required you may turn a few pages back.

[amit]

In any scenario, the army HQ would want to retain its flexibility of launching the principal battle groups anywhere along the IB.

Would that include the flexibility of using whatever Arjuns the Army finally takes in Punjab if the need arises? Is there such operational flexibility?

In case an explanation with reference to context is required you may turn a few pages back.

Thank you, but I respectfully decline to do so.

My point is simple, Arjun is advertised as being more suited to the desert warfare? Why?

[Sanku]

My point is simple, Arjun is advertised as being more suited to the desert warfare? Why?

Because the desert terrain does not offer the same obstacles of bridges, canals, roads and weights in the Punjab plain.

Therefore Arjun in desert is better than Arjun in the plain.

What is so hard?

[amit]

Because the desert terrain does not offer the same obstacles of bridges, canals, roads and weights in the Punjab plain.

Therefore Arjun in desert is better than Arjun in the plain.

What is so hard?

I guess you don't realise that's a manufactured reason.

Bridges: That really is a poor excuse as strengthening bridges is no big deal.

Canals: Surely you are not saying that the T90s can swim across canals and the Arjuns cannot? So it's back to bridges.

Roads: Which tank has the lower ground pressure? But seriously are you saying that a tank which purportedly is capable of traversing a sandy terrain would get bogged down on roads?

Nope the point about Arjun being suited for desert operation with the caveat it's not suited for Punjab is a manufactured designation because the T90 cannot operate in the desert due to heating issues.

[k prasad]

Can you outline three four salient points please?

1) Speak to the IAF vs IN TPs and brass - the difference in enthusiasm and urgency is evident.

2) IAF only came on board the LCA project in 2004 (documented - Aero Seminar '13), and since then, you can observe the tone of their pronouncements on that. IAF might've only found some enthusiasm recently, after they've spent a little more time on the LCA.

3) Navy has way more reasons to jettison the LCA-N - they have more options, and have fewer needs. But at each instance, Naval Chiefs and IN TPs in the LCA project have been pushing harder and harder for the LCA-N to take off more quickly. I do remember that there were some news reports wrt how they had expressed urgency and the need to focus on LCA-N, which wasnt happening as fast as they wanted. Look at how hard they've pushed for sea trials, carrier landing trials (in the shore facility) in Goa, etc.

4) Does anyone have a composition of the LCA Test team? It'd be interesting to see how many Navy and IAF TPs are there.

[Surya]

IA has pretended no such thing, they are only setting vision as a user. Otherwise DRDO or actually those self appointed speakers on behalf of DRDO with a agenda to run down IA, will come back and say, "you did not tell us 10000000000000 years ago that you will need this 100000000000 years later"

But what happened to the fabulous FMBT which was going to be kept under 50 tons?? 3 man crew yada yada yada

Suddenly DGMF went all quiet, Waiting for the Russians??

DGMF was going talking about FMBT because Arjun was obsolete so don't bring DRDO in this

We saw their vision with the cut and paste that became Arjun. We saw their vision with huffy and tuffy.

[Sanku]

Because the desert terrain does not offer the same obstacles of bridges, canals, roads and weights in the Punjab plain.

Therefore Arjun in desert is better than Arjun in the plain.

What is so hard?

I guess you don't realise that's a manufactured reason.
.

We are discussing reality not your opinion here. You can either chose to align with reality or please stop asking questions whose answers you dont want.

Incidentally Dr Saraswat's own statement on that has been posted here.

[Sanku]

IA has pretended no such thing, they are only setting vision as a user. Otherwise DRDO or actually those self appointed speakers on behalf of DRDO with a agenda to run down IA, will come back and say, "you did not tell us 10000000000000 years ago that you will need this 100000000000 years later"

But what happened to the fabulous FMBT which was going to be kept under 50 tons?? 3 man crew yada yada yada
.

DRDO is working on that. The statement of Dr Saraswat was posted.

[Sanku]

Can you outline three four salient points please?

1) Speak to the IAF vs IN TPs and brass - the difference in enthusiasm and urgency is evident.

2) IAF only came on board the LCA project in 2004 (documented - Aero Seminar '13), and since then, you can observe the tone of their pronouncements on that. IAF might've only found some enthusiasm recently, after they've spent a little more time on the LCA.
.

Thank you for the answers, I am only taking the above two, because only the above two pertain to differences between IN/IAF, the others are more statements of generic nature on the topic.

Can you please share a reference for IAF only came on board in 2004?

Also, I was hoping that the difference could be shown with more tangible steps, like the number of officers deputed to the program, turn around in test times, turn around in queries from IAF/IN etc.

Something more measurable than the take away from impressions during a Aero show chat up (I am not saying they do not count, but then impressions are well, impressions, I can not get what you get, I was not there etc)

[k prasad]

I agree sanku-saar, a lot of these are intangibles. But then again, many of the tangibles would be classified or unknown to the general public...

As for the IAF came on board, my bad... in fact, it is not even 2004, but 2006. Link: http://aeroindiaseminar.in/admin/techni ... _paper.pdf or http://livefist.blogspot.in/2013/02/lca ... andid.html

also: (from source)

Asked today about the Indian Navy's interest in the F-35 Lightning II, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral D.K. Joshi today said that while the acquisition of a new generation fighter from abroad with "in the planning phase", the Navy was looking forward more to the LCA Navy. Lockheed-Martin has pitched both F-35B and C variants to the Indian Navy, and is understood to have made another presentation recently.

[Surya]

DRDO is working on that. The statement of Dr Saraswat was posted

you missed the point

Where is the DGMFs vaunted vision on the FMBT? Since they went to town saying that the Arjun is obsolete and the FMBT is what they want??


nothing from DGMF nada zilch

even philip saar however misguided had a vision turretless, 3 man etc

[amit]

Incidentally Dr Saraswat's own statement on that has been posted here.

Aha now Dr Saraswat's "statement" is being paraded here as ultimate proof. I like the way you twist in and out of opinions depending on what suits you in the current state of discussion.

You feel Dr Saraswat statement that the Arjun outclassed the T90 is correct "only in a limited sense". But here, since his statement suits your POV it is gospel truth.

You know what, I feel Dr Saraswat's statement about Arjuns being suited for desert warfare is correct "only in a limited sense". That's becauise: a) He's ultimately an establishment man and he has to, on occasions, side with the Army's POV and b) Being suited for the desert does not necessarily mean "not suited" for the Punjab plains. After all he also said that Arjuns are better than T90s - your "limited sense" notwithstanding.

We are discussing reality...

Yes we are discussing your (alternate) reality where you second guess the DRDO chief when it suits you and alternately when it suits you, you parade his statement as the last word in the discussion.

Anyway have it your way. You know what, what you think or feel doesn't really matter (to me at least). You're free to feel the same about my posts, no skin off my teeth.

[amit]

DRDO is working on that. The statement of Dr Saraswat was posted

you missed the point

Where is the DGMFs vaunted vision on the FMBT? Since they went to town saying that the Arjun is obsolete and the FMBT is what they want??


nothing from DGMF nada zilch

even philip saar however misguided had a vision turretless, 3 man etc

Surya,

Correct me if I'm wrong but DGMF was looking for a mythical beast which would be under 50 tons and yet have a four-man crew. It took a long time for them to realise that if you want a four man crew you can't have anything in the region of 50 tons - the weight has to go up.

Only after the understanding came they reluctantly agreed to look at an Arjun derivative as the FMBT. However, such a tank is unlikely to be ready before 2020-25. I dare say within that time DGMF would/could have another attack of brochuritist with the Russians pulling out an new rabbit from their tincan hat.

[Surya]

amit

frankly I have no idea whether DGMF (at that time) was genuinely looking for something

to me it looked it was just a quick attempt to rubbish Arjun and it backfired because now they had to come up with something .... forget a GQSR, even a vision to use Sankus words

[rohitvats]

So, finally you're trying to do some research and not quote random articles which suit your POV.

But here again, you have inferred the information as it suits you. And incidentally, you've dug up the points which go against T-90.

For sake of clarity we will identify Arjun Mk1A as Mk2 , defined by Director CVRDE.

OK. We will refer to new batch of Arjun as Arjun Mk-2.

That an Arjun Mk-2 was on cards at least since 2007 can be ascertained from MoD's statement.

Arjun Mk-2 being on cards is not same as IA having given complete feedback to DRDO on Arjun Mk-1. Remember, the AUCRT took place in 2007-2008 cycle? If there was a feedback which was required to be given, it was after this episode.

The fact of the matter is that there was nothing in Mk-1 which could have prevented the large scale induction of the tank. Mk-2 is not a definite variant of the tank. IA asking for increments on a perfectly capable Mk-1 and holding induction is nothing but delay tactics.

Let me quote about Arjun Mk-1 from the same Parliamentary Report that you'd linked here:

The Ministry was asked to give comparative table of production cost, features and capability of Arjun Tank with original and upgraded T-90 and T-72 Tank. The Ministry replied ” “MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement. Unlike T-90 tank which was primarily built for Russian Armed Forces, adapted by Indian Army for certain specific roles, this T-90 is a 50 tonne class vehicle which does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun. But it is an improved system over T-72 tank.

A price comparison between the two tanks, therefore, will not be in order. However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line and is Rs 6-8 crore cheaper than its contemporary system in the west. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore and is yet to be indigenised.

MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire (Laser Homing Anti Tank) LAHAT missile from the barrel of the gun. Only T-90 tank has such capability. MBT Arjun has good export potential in African countries due to its superior features vis-a-vis contemporary MBTs”

Next time, before you compare Arjun with T-90, don't forget to read the above.

Now, answer me this - If Arjun Mk-1 wipes the floor with T-90, what was the need for IA to send DRDO on another leather hunt with Arjun Mk-2? Apart from Missile firing capability, does the T-90 have anything to match Arjun Mk-2 - considering that T-90 MS is no where in sight?

IA on its part agreed in principle to induct 124 Arjun Mk2. It moved case and took sanction for 124 Arjun Mk2 from Defence Acquisition Council in 2010. It is placing an indent, pending finalisation of the improvements that had been mutually agreed upon. There are no major replacements or design changes in Mk2 compared to Mk1.

Good. At least we've moved away from DRDO/CVRDE/HVF have delayed the production of Arjun Mk2 song which you were singing in the last page. The IA finalized the modification set sometime in 2010 before placing the indent. And as per the same Ajai Shukla post you linked, by summer 2011 45 of the modifications had been incorporated.

Here is the part of the report you missed:

Of these 93 modifications, 45 have already been tested during trials in summer 2011… having been incorporated on one "improved Arjun Mk I" tank. A second tank is being cut open to put in three major modifications, including the commander’s panoramic sight Mk II.

BTW - Quite opportunistic of you to quote Ajai Shukla when his posts/data points seems to be supporting your line of argument. not many pages back you were casting aspersions on him.

It is not that each of these requirements dawned on the IA or DRDO after 2009. Many of them like ATT and panaromic TI sights were defacto standards in western MBTs that Arjun is compared to.

Excellent!!!

So, now the comparative benchmark of Arjun is western heavies? Oh! how the mighty have fallen...

And come to think of it, all this while the debate which INDIAN ARMY has been trying to manufacture (along with people like you on this forum) is that T-90 is better suited for Indian conditions and is a better tank. Sigh!!!

Now what? IA cannot induct Arjun because it is not good enough as Abrams or Leopard 2? Does Indian Army DGMF consist of retards who decide the specs required on their tank based on what is available in western tanks or do they decide on specs based on their operational requirement? How come the MBT of IA which equips its main strike formations can do with TI sights which conk-off in high temperature regime while Arjun need Gen 2 TI sights? As if anything was wrong with the first one in the first place? Does T-90 have APU? And what about the cooling pack required to manage the temperatures so that the fragile electronics of T-90 can function in Thar desert? And why does Arjun need to fire ATGM from its main gun when no western tank fires one? After all, this capability has been tom-tommed as some sort of USP of T-90.

The initial trials are being conducted with Russian ERA

.

Why was the ERA requirement given in the first place? Does the IA think that PA tandem warhead ATGM can penetrate the existing Kanchan Armor on Arjun? Or, the APFSDS Rounds on PA tanks can penetrate Arjun?

New track system are as a result of persisting problems with unchaining of tracks that has been often reported in the past.

Please back this up with news item(s) which say that tracks were a problem in 2010.

Mine ploughs have been a must for operating MBT against the main adversaries. The increase in weight was a given, with ERA and mine plough at the least.

Does a tank always operate with a mine ploug?

A direct consequence of increase in weight is the requirement of changes in final drive, which should have been foreseen upfront, given the legacy limitations of Renk transmission.

And what problem do you exactly have with this? You make it look as if there is some serious draw back with this development? At least Arjun engine performs as per specifications. And not like the T-90 engine whose actual performance itself is short of brochure claims and which derates further in desert conditions.

It would suffice to say that DRDO was seized of these requirements for quite some time and as a result the initial trials could start in Jun 2011. After, nearly two years, the trials are still on.

DRDO acts on requirement of the army based on written feedback. Of all the improvements mentioned in the list, there is nothing which stopped optimal deployment or performance of Arjun tank. And it wiped the floor with T-90. But the tragedy of the situation is that while T-90 continues to be inducted in numbers, Arjun needs to undergo another round of upgrades.

After the way you talk about trials is as if they are trivial matters. If you'd bothered to read the same Ajai Shukla article from which you posted the list of improvements sought, you'd have read this as well:

I know, like every married person, that “major” and “minor” are relative terms. But here is the list of 19 major modifications that the Arjun Mark II will feature

In addition, there are 74 “minor” improvements (adding up to 93 improvements in all) that are not really that minor

The fact of the matter is this - you selectively quote text to further your POV.

Since most of the issues have been long pending and known to the DRDO, the solutions offered should not have taken too much time to be put up for trials. Also, if things had been thought off well, it should not be taking so much time for successful trial.

The only issues are which are manufactured for argument sake.

Please tell me one instance from the so called 93 improvements which is being incorporated to to solve some 'long standing' issue?

[Surya]

thanks Rohit I was restraining myself at this shifting of goal posts to 'western heavie had it so whay the eff did DRDO not have it in place ' type argument

thanks for ripping it to shreds

now wait for the goal posts to shift.

consultations with DGMF types are in progress

[rohitvats]

thanks Rohit I was restraining myself at this shifting of goal posts to 'western heavie had it so whay the eff did DRDO not have it in place ' type argument

thanks for ripping it to shreds

now wait for the goal posts to shift.

consultations with DGMF types are in progress

- quote comic (and tragic), isn't it?

You the most funny part - people quoting one section from a source which gives some silver lining to their POV w/o bothering to check that the latter part of the source shreds their arguments to pieces...That Parliamentary Standing Committee Report (PSCD) linked by Nelson is a keeper. It clearly says that Arjun is far superior to T-90 and T-72. And people still have the gumption to argue that it is Arjun Mk-1 which needs upgrade to come good. Talk of clutching at straws!!!

BTW, I've followed all the PSCD Reports and over the years, the language used for Arjun has changed. The one quoted in the report linked by nelson is one of the biggest departures from earlier comments. It clearly relegates T-90 into background as compared to Arjun.

In the interview linked by amit, it clearly says that 43 and 75 AR have moved to Jaisalmer (180 Armd Bde of 12 RAPID). So, part of my assumption is true...logistic requirements demands that IA will need to keep the Arjun together. After this two regiments, there is scope for 3+1+1 Regiments in 12 Corps itself. However, since Army has ordered 2 x Regiments of Arjun Mk-2, I have a spidery feeling that another RAPID on western border is going to be equipped with them - and this could be from 10 Corps. Let us wait and watch.

[Sanku]

I agree sanku-saar, a lot of these are intangibles. But then again, many of the tangibles would be classified or unknown to the general public...

As for the IAF came on board, my bad... in fact, it is not even 2004, but 2006. Link: http://aeroindiaseminar.in/admin/techni ... _paper.pdf or http://livefist.blogspot.in/2013/02/lca ... andid.html

Thank you prasad-ji this also caught my eye

Customer Involvement. During the design and development process itself,
it is vital that comprehensive knowledge of aviation in general and military
aviation in particular is made available to the program. Scientists and design
engineers do not have that knowledge. The Indian Air Force is the only repository
of comprehensive military aviation knowledge in this country. Either its expertise
was not sought or it was denied. Also we probably have the only aviation
companies in the world that do not have aviators embedded into design teams. As a
result, while the designers concentrated on getting the technology airborne, the
design necessities of turning the aircraft into a maintainable, deployable and
employable weapon platform were missed to a large extent. Originally a reluctant
customer, the Indian Air Force involved itself sufficiently only after contracting for
supply of the aircraft in 2006. It was late in the program and hundreds of ‘Requests
for Action’ had to be raised in order to retrieve the situation to some extent, but
this lead to time and cost overruns

This has been a common malaise, and only services are not to blame here.

[Sanku]

DRDO is working on that. The statement of Dr Saraswat was posted

you missed the point

Where is the DGMFs vaunted vision on the FMBT? Since they went to town saying that the Arjun is obsolete and the FMBT is what they want??

Surya I dont get it, what do you want? A daily press release? For a project with something like 5-10 year time lines? That when we dont even get updates for Mk2?

Overall vision has been presented, DRDO is working on it, broad contours are already discussed. We can always repost that. There was a video even posted on the thread, turning the vision into a model.

[Sanku]

Incidentally Dr Saraswat's own statement on that has been posted here.

Aha now Dr Saraswat's "statement" is being paraded here as ultimate proof. I like the way you twist in and out of opinions depending on what suits you in the current state of discussion.
.

Sir ji twisting is all your specialty. I am a humble man, cant even get to that.

[Austin]

I believe of DRDO/IA seriously persues the 50T FMBT to its logical conclusion then it will be a 3 man crew only its a forgone conclusion , the manual loader will gets replaced by Auto Loader .

The French Leclerc is a good example of how a 54 T tank is a 3 man crew.

[Sanku]

Rohit >> I dont want to get into a argument or intercede between you and Nelson, but the Parl committee report says various aspects in which Arjun is superior, no doubt, but does not say that "Arjun is clearly a superior tank". That is your take away but not mine.

Also when discussion the capabilities, Mk1 production still does not fire LAHAT. Only the capability has been demonstrated. This might appear like nit picking, but I think these are important points.

[nachiket]

Rohit >> I dont want to get into a argument or intercede between you and Nelson, but the Parl committee report says various aspects in which Arjun is superior, no doubt, but does not say that "Arjun is clearly a superior tank". That is your take away but not mine.

Among the "various aspects" mentioned are "far superior weapon accuracy" and "excellent mobility" If that does not make it a clearly superior tank, then I don't know what does. (except a "Designed in Russia" tag of course). It doesn't mention the obvious advantages of heavier armor, crew comfort, single-piece ammo and a thermal sight which doesn't break down in the heat.

Saraswat also clearly states that the Arjun Mk1 outperformed the T-90 in the comparative trials.

Also when discussion the capabilities, Mk1 production still does not fire LAHAT. Only the capability has been demonstrated. This might appear like nit picking, but I think these are important points.

But since it has been demonstrated, it is obvious that the army's Mk1's can be modified later to fire it. In fact, there is no reason that the Mk1's cannot be upgraded later to the full Mk2 standard.
There is also no doubt (even in the Army's minds) that the Arjun is vastly superior to the T-72. Yet the Mk1 production lines are idle for two years, while the Army continues to operate hordes of T-72s and T-55s.

[Anujan]

Why does Arjun get just 2 marks? VKS himself said so. To fight a war, you need a tank with at least 90 marks. Preferably 100/100.

[amit]

Why does Arjun get just 2 marks? VKS himself said so. To fight a war, you need a tank with at least 90 marks. Preferably 100/100.

Not to mention the fact that a tank with 72 marks is ideal for the Paks. Every time they see one they would be reminded of their 72 waiting in jannat. You win without even firing a shot.

And you guys want to bring forward tanks with stupid one mark or two marks. Phaa!

[SaiK]

one can achieve 90 marks with capitation fees onlee. 8 marks for a-saars in the middle, and the remaining 2 marks are onlee available for extra credits. Out of the 90, 72 are actually for quotas. btw, a squadron of 18 is a pass mark.

[amit]

I am a humble man, cant even get to that.

Doesn't prevent you from trying your darnest!

And you do that while being a humble man. I shudder to think what would have happened if you had been one of those arrogant posters who take advantage of the anonymity of the Internet to call others, including public figures, liars and even question their patriotism based on some comments taken out of context!

Indeed I'm relieved (and I suspect some other folks here also) that you are such a humble man. Thank god for small mercies!

[pragnya]

Why does Arjun get just 2 marks? VKS himself said so. To fight a war, you need a tank with at least 90 marks.

best would have been with 95 marks. but alas...

Preferably 100/100.

there is still scope for it sir.

[amit]

Though none of it is new it might be useful to compile some of the major points that have come to light over the past few pages of this thread:

1) Saraswat has confirmed what journalists like Ajai Shukla have been saying. To wit, the Arjun MK1 beat the T90 in the comparative trials.

2) Sivakumar has made the following points: a) The production line is lying idle for two years; b) A lot of knowhow is being lost because of the idle production line; c) Bigger order would fix production line problems and improve quality and bring down import content – four regiment’s worth would bring down import content to 25 per cent; and d) Related to the previous point, he also said that an order in sufficient numbers would allow of ToT and manufacture in India of components.

3) The Parliamentary Committee report has also said that T90 does not have some of the advanced features of Arjun MK1 and that the latter’s firing accuracy is far superior to both the T90 and T72.

Against this we have:

1) Arjun is only fit for the desert warfare. But no answer to the question: Why just the desert?

2) Arjun cannot cross the canal bridges in the Punjab. In this context it is useful to note that the use of term bridges should be qualified because a bridge over any decent-sized river with a motor able road would most definitely have the capacity to bear the Arjun’s weight. So what we are really talking about is small bridges over canals in the Punjab. Duh?

3) The Army’s explanation for not induction Arjuns in large numbers is because of its heavy weight.

4) However, related to the above, after the Arjun Mk1 beat the T90 in comparative trials, the Army lists 90 odd improvements which actually increases the weight by around 5 tonnes!

There have I got everything in?

[pragnya]

....

There have I got everything in?

unfortunately not sir.

you forgot 'reality' and 'alternate reality' (your own phrase) exist in real world!!!

[Yagnasri]

Further you also missed Arjun is a Natasha one. Not a Indian.

[jai]

Further you also missed Arjun is a Natasha one. Not a Indian.

How so ? Would you care to enlighten us on this grand hypothesis ?

[amit]

Sorry Jai, you're a bit late into the party. Someone put up the rhetorical: How indigenous is Arjun?

If Arjun is not indigenous then it must be a Natasha in disguise.