Indian Naval Discussion

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 18 Apr 2013 00:49

Mulls screwed up
Paramour affairs are part and parcel of Navel affairs.
The nana anti case was mentioned to tell you since eons pati patni aur woh has been going on.

So relax, the lady who is victim is no mamas fool she is highly educated to make wild allegations.

She has much integrity as the Lt had

titash · Post by **titash** » 18 Apr 2013 01:51

pentaiah wrote:Mulls screwed up
Paramour affairs are part and parcel of Navel affairs.
The nana anti case was mentioned to tell you since eons pati patni aur woh has been going on.

So relax, the lady who is victim is no mamas fool she is highly educated to make wild allegations.

She has much integrity as the Lt had

Pentaiah sirjee...the lady's educational qualifications have no bearing on her ability or inclination to slander others

As of today, all we know is a certain lady has made allegations that tarnish her husband's reputation and allegations that tarnish a proud organization

If on further investigation, she is proven to be lying, then she should be penalized for defamation on both counts

If on further investigation, she is proven to be telling the truth, then her abusers should be dealt with sternly

On the aspect of extramarital affairs/wife swapping etc, one should legitimately assume that everything takes place with the full consent of all involved parties, and that people in the forces are as raunchy or innocent as the civilians and armchair critics outside. So why single the navy out for criticism?

"fauj mein mauj" statements are indicative of only one thing...people resent going through their daily grind feeling all along that they are supporting those in uniform who are apparently having "mauj" at the taxpayers expense. What people in most mature democracies realize (and that understanding is lacking in India big time) is that paying to maintain an armed force is the "cost of doing business" / "cost of existence"

Saying "Mulls screwed up" is to dishonor that gentleman - he died for you and me, and the least we can do is respect him for that

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 18 Apr 2013 02:12

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 18 Apr 2013 02:42

Singha wrote:a 3000t ship (LCS) with a top speed of 47 knots...insane....it will outrun anything in the water...but to what end nobody knows I bet...

Word is that you aren't supposed to ask. The need for speed is a demonstrated end in itself, questioning it makes you a hidebound curmudgeon with a calcified mind.

The most sensible answer yet has come from the USS Freedom's first captain. He said he could use the massive wake created by the high speed to topple and sink pirate skiffs. Nobody was sure if he was serious or joking.

The Little Crappy Ship (that is exactly what it is referred to in some circles) is a bit like the F-35 of ships. It was conceptualized as a "multirole" replacement for the missile boat, FAC, minesweeper, ASW corvette, amphibious ship, and everything in between. Hell, some bright spark even imagined putting a squadron of F-35s and a handful of SH-60s on it. All in all, it works great in theory, but is prohibitively expensive and breaks down if you as much as look at it crosswise.

abhishek-nayak · Post by **abhishek-nayak** » 18 Apr 2013 05:51

pentaiah wrote:Mulls screwed up
Paramour affairs are part and parcel of Navel affairs.
The nana anti case was mentioned to tell you since eons pati patni aur woh has been going on.

So relax, the lady who is victim is no mamas fool she is highly educated to make wild allegations.

She has much integrity as the Lt had

I agree the chances of committing adultery is very high in navy as compared to other forces but those who indulge in such immoral behavior are a small minority and most of them are shown the door immediately, be it the man sleeping with russian honey trap or the man who ran away with senior officers wife or the man sending vulgar sms.....

In defense forces these kind of things are strictly not tolerated.......

As said before the allegation made by lady is extremely severe....the consequences would be extremely devastating if the allegation are proven to be true...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Apr 2013 12:02

Indian Navy For 5 More Fleet Tankers

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Apr 2013 12:17

ramana wrote:Something is rotten in IN officer class

Naval Officers come from the same Indian Society that you & I come from. I would believe the above statement if it is proven to me that whatever ills the Naval Fraternity is being accused of is completely absent in Indian society.

abhishek-nayak wrote:I agree the chances of committing adultery is very high in navy as compared to other forces

I'm not sure how this conclusion is reached.

Lots of Indians work in the Middle East in blue collar jobs while their spouses stay back home. While some of them across both genders face personal biological challenges, would it be fair on us to accuse the entire community as "susceptible to adultery?"

ONGC engineers work on offshore oil rigs. Or merchant mariners. Would it be fair to accuse them & their spouses as "susceptible to adultery?"

There was a rape & murder case in Delhi earlier. Based on that, can we brand "chances of rape are higher in Delhi" or "All Delhi males have a penchant to rape?" or "something is rotten in Delhi males".

pentaiah wrote:Mulls screwed up

I'm reporting this post.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 18 Apr 2013 14:29

tsarkar wrote:
pentaiah wrote:Mulls screwed up
I'm reporting this post.

There should be a sticky on BR with the following "Members are warned that if they a) hold an opinion contrary to popular narrative b) then have the temerity to post it c) Fail to kowtow to the majority/shrillest posters on a thread ...they will be in trouble.

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Apr 2013 16:55

Austin wrote:Indian Navy For 5 More Fleet Tankers

Why is it Global Buy? None of Pvt Players can build a fleet tanker??

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Apr 2013 18:06

Perhaps because the local yards are full and cant deliver the tankers quickly as navy would like to.

The Deepak Class is a good tanker to opt for 5 more to bring logistics commonality as IN operates 2 of this class , the build quality is quite good of European yards

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2010/10/ind ... anker.html

titash · Post by **titash** » 18 Apr 2013 18:29

RajitO wrote: There should be a sticky on BR with the following "Members are warned that if they a) hold an opinion contrary to popular narrative b) then have the temerity to post it c) Fail to kowtow to the majority/shrillest posters on a thread ...they will be in trouble.

RajitO saab...that is a very flippant remark

Capt. M N Mulla is a recipient of the Maha Vir Chakra, gave his life for our country (please notice that neither you, nor I, nor Pentaiah has done so yet), and deserves every ounce of respect and veneration. It takes character and courage to knowingly head towards certain death, and absolutely no character or courage to take cheap shots from behind a PC

Pentaiah's post is not just holding an alternate opinion. It is downright hurtful to anyone who has an interest and stake in India.

Finally, this is the 'Bharat Rakshak' forum and not the 'Bharat Sucks' forum. If our fellow countrymen can freely disparage our heroes and lower morale by constantly berating us for our alleged effeminacy and alleged incompetence, then why do we need the Pakis???

If it feels so disgusting to be an Indian, then migrate! I'm sure the US is waiting with open arms to welcome people of your talents...Oh wait a sec! That option's only available for Mexican illegals, not disgusted desis

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 18 Apr 2013 19:18

Since we're on the topic of Capt. Mulla, I thought it relevant to repost this:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1020954

It's a letter by Cmdr. Allan Rodrigues to Ameeta Mulla Wattal, Capt. Mulla's daughter, explaining the events of the night the Khukri was sunk, and why he chose to go down with the ship. It is incredibly touching, and well worth the long read.

Having said that, I agree with RajitO. Pentaiah has a right to express his opinion, no matter how offended we are by it. One hopes that he would follow through with a detailed explanation of why he holds that opinion, but looking at his earlier pronouncements on the forum, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 18 Apr 2013 19:22

titash wrote:
RajitO wrote: There should be a sticky on BR with the following "Members are warned that if they a) hold an opinion contrary to popular narrative b) then have the temerity to post it c) Fail to kowtow to the majority/shrillest posters on a thread ...they will be in trouble.
RajitO saab...that is a very flippant remark

It was going well until the inevitable dive into ad hominem...which alongwith it's brother strawman are the two favourite indulgences of most folks on BR

titash wrote:If it feels so disgusting to be an Indian, then migrate! I'm sure the US is waiting with open arms to welcome people of your talents...Oh wait a sec! That option's only available for Mexican illegals, not disgusted desis

"How exactly did Capt. Mulla "screw up"? would have been a perfectly reasonable response, and one of the follow on posters asks this, it's too bad it's sandwiched between a value judgement and a threat so that even if someone would reply folks minds are made up.

It's cool - most people come to discussion boards to validate their own beliefs not to learn something new.

.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Apr 2013 19:49

abhishek-nayak wrote:
pentaiah wrote:Mulls screwed up
Paramour affairs are part and parcel of Navel affairs.
The nana anti case was mentioned to tell you since eons pati patni aur woh has been going on.

So relax, the lady who is victim is no mamas fool she is highly educated to make wild allegations.

She has much integrity as the Lt had
I agree the chances of committing adultery is very high in navy as compared to other forces but those who indulge in such immoral behavior are a small minority and most of them are shown the door immediately, be it the man sleeping with russian honey trap or the man who ran away with senior officers wife or the man sending vulgar sms.....

In defense forces these kind of things are strictly not tolerated.......

As said before the allegation made by lady is extremely severe....the consequences would be extremely devastating if the allegation are proven to be true...

guys

The chances of committing adultery in the Navy is no more/no less than the existing proportion in the general public. Any company will have it's share of office romances and random sex between partners married to others. It is the same in government or private companies.

It seems to get highlighted in the services and the same happens in all three services in the same proportion that it happens in the general public.

coveting your neighbour's wife is a common enough sport all over the world. Let's not make too much out of it. Incidents like this come to light once in a great while. The punishment in the services is swift, harsh and exemplary. There are bound to be a few bad apples in any basket. It does not mean that you entirely stop growing or eating apples.

What else can saint antony say except that he will take swift action as he has said all his life and f(uked up everything that he has touched?

Every office has tales of the higher management poking the female staff and the said staff willingly spreading for them. If you have any female colleagues at work willing to talk in confidence then you would be very surprised at the tales of jiggery and pokery that are going on under your very unsuspecting nose.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2013 19:57

> If it feels so disgusting to be an Indian, then migrate!

well I believe he already did decades ago.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Apr 2013 20:05

pentaiah wrote:Mulls screwed up
Paramour affairs are part and parcel of Navel affairs.
The nana anti case was mentioned to tell you since eons pati patni aur woh has been going on.

So relax, the lady who is victim is no mamas fool she is highly educated to make wild allegations.

She has much integrity as the Lt had

pentaiah, there is no evidence to back up your wild allegation the "Paramour affairs are part and parcel of Navel affairs"

In the nanavati case, the lady in question was a low class english secretary type who was wined, dined, seduced, swept off her silly feet and f(uked by a rich slimy panju business type. Nanavati did the honourable thing.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 18 Apr 2013 20:22

^^ Excuse me, what exactly is a "low class English secretary type"? What is a "Panju business type"? And how is the criminal act of murder "the honourable thing" in a case of passion? What bullshit is this? Who the hell are you to sit and define "types" and then decide that murder is "honourable"? Boss, you don't live in some Victorian romance novel. It is not honourable to go and shoot someone because you have access to firearms. It is a crime. And your service in the armed forces (I'm assuming from past posts) does not give you the right to categorise people as "types" and whether they are "high-class" or "low-class".
Murder as honourable conduct. Wow.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 18 Apr 2013 20:35

Even the court understood and accepted the circumstances in which he had to kill.It was an unusual case

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Apr 2013 20:42

Jaeger wrote:^^ Excuse me, what exactly is a "low class English secretary type"? What is a "Panju business type"? And how is the criminal act of murder "the honourable thing" in a case of passion? What bullshit is this? Who the hell are you to sit and define "types" and then decide that murder is "honourable"? Boss, you don't live in some Victorian romance novel. It is not honourable to go and shoot someone because you have access to firearms. It is a crime. And your service in the armed forces (I'm assuming from past posts) does not give you the right to categorise people as "types" and whether they are "high-class" or "low-class".
Murder as honourable conduct. Wow.

Just quoting the prevalent mood at the time of the incident. There were a lot of mixed marriages in those days by folks who were returning from long training stints mostly ex UK and france. The ladies were mostly of the type referred to. A large number Indian families were livid at the choices that their allegedly bright wards had made. The Indian families concerned (in those days) were most very wealthy and upper class with a large sprinkling of minor royalty thrown in. They could immediately see what their baba had dragged in. The imported wives had a great difficulty fitting in and some simply gave up and went back as many also adjusted admirably well. Some like nanavati's wife continued to party on and met an untimely end. The social situation is very different these days and directly reflects the society at large.

It's a point of view of some fifty sixty odd years ago and you don't have to like it.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Apr 2013 21:27

RajitO wrote:There should be a sticky on BR with the following "Members are warned that if they a) hold an opinion contrary to popular narrative b) then have the temerity to post it c) Fail to kowtow to the majority/shrillest posters on a thread ...they will be in trouble.

Freedom of speech is not the right to propagate lies. Freedom requires responsibility to learn & understand the truth.

And the truth is this –

During 1971, the best IN ships were on offensive bombarding East & West Pakistan coasts, simultaneously fighting a two front war.

Defence of home waters was left to old ships like 1940’s WW2 vintage R Class destroyer INS Rajput & Hunt Class frigate INS Godavari. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Rajput_(D141)

Type 14 frigate INS Kukhri commissioned 1958 was 12 years older than Daphne submarine PNS Hangor commissioned 1970. The original sonar of INS Kukhri was correspondingly much less capable than the sonar of PNS Hangor. Anyone who know’s Moore’s law will understand how vastly superior the Pakistani submarine’s sonar was compared to INS Kukhri’s. INS Kukhri was also installed with an Indian experimental sonar that was not tested yet.

Captain Mulla, despite knowing his ship’s deficiencies, went on a hunt for PNS Hangor. A blind man diving into the sea to kill a shark in its natural element.

Typically, in submarine infested waters, a ship keeps high speed & erratic course to make it difficult for submarine commander to get a firing track. However, high speeds degrade own sonar performance.

Captain Mulla went on the offensive. He went slowly on a search pattern to allow his sonar best chances of detection unimpeded by the noise generated by high speed.

Tragically, the new sonar never performed. The low speed and predictable track allowed PNS Hangor easily torpedo INS Kukhri.

Now, had Captain Mulla kept high speed, he & Kukhri would have no doubt survived, but they would have done nothing to hunt the Hangor.

The bravery of Captain Mulla was going on the offensive despite his deficiencies.

Also note an IN Alize aircraft sent to hunt PNS Hangor was shot down by a PAF Starfighter. Those propeller powered aircraft crew were no less brave.

Now that I’ve repeated the truth for you, please justify your contention that Captain Mulla screwed up. Otherwise you’re yourself a big mouth screw up.

RajitO wrote:It was going well until the inevitable dive into ad hominem...which alongwith it's brother strawman are the two favourite indulgences of most folks on BR "How exactly did Capt. Mulla "screw up"? would have been a perfectly reasonable response, and one of the follow on posters asks this, it's too bad it's sandwiched between a value judgement and a threat so that even if someone would reply folks minds are made up.It's cool - most people come to discussion boards to validate their own beliefs not to learn something new.

Do you realize how aptly your post applies to yourself. You want to dictate people’s response based on what you want to hear, viz, "How exactly did Capt. Mulla "screw up"?”.

If you have the right to provoke people in your manner, then, people too have the right to respond in their own manner.

If you want to masturbate on your pet psychology theories, then Indian Naval Discussion thread is not the place for it.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Apr 2013 22:11

This is Time Magazine describing Nanavati http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 34,00.html

He was second officer on the cruiser Mysore, India's flagship; he had an excellent World War II record, ranging from convoy duty on the Murmansk run to the Anzio landing on the Italian coast;

Nanavati was an excellent shot, testified in court by IN Officers, and could've riddled Prem Ahuja on entering his house. However he was contemplating suicide. He asked Prem Ahuja, "You filthy swine, are you prepared to marry Sylvia and care for my children?". Ahuja replied, "Am I to marry every woman I sleep with?" Nanavati then shot Ahuja.

Now, how is Nanavati at fault? Naval Officer didn't have an affair, Civil Society did. Isnt Civil Society at fault, seducing women of men who're giving their lives for the nation? Shouldn't Civil Society be cursed & abused? Nanavati was an ideal officer & husband.

pentaiah wrote:The nana anti case was mentioned to tell you since eons pati patni aur woh has been going on.

Contrary to your dishonest claims, since eons pati patni aur woh has been going on in Civil Society. However, for a screwup like pentaiah, majority of whose posts are in the Nukkad thread, I dont expected any iota of knowledge or truth to come forth.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Apr 2013 23:27

^^
Good for you tsarkar ji. +1

The impression being portrayed by a few here is as though the Naval Officers spent all their time humping any thing that moved to the serious detriment of their official duties.

It is to be seen as an aberration that afflicts all Indian society at every level. A part of that aberration seems to have surfaced in the Navy recently. An unpleasant glitch, nevertheless. The responsible parties will be dealt with severely and Naval life will go on unruffled.

Any number of politicians are in prison currently because they could not keep it in their lungis. The papers are full of killings, divorces and elopements resulting in some civil society members giving suparis and contract killings on the paramours. I have not seen any discussions on those events. Very strange.

titash · Post by **titash** » 18 Apr 2013 23:59

^^^ +1000 to tsarkar's posts

It's so easy to be an armchair critic and take potshots at someone's/some organization's reputation, without having any knowledge or inclination to know the facts.

RajitO,
As tsarkar put it so beautifully, you cannot pass random comments that people feel deeply offended at, and then condescendingly state that anyone who takes offence has no leg to stand on. All you are conveying is "main khiladi, baadki sab anaadi"

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Apr 2013 00:13

There is no need to be sentimental here I fckn don't know why people get so hyper; Nanavati got off the hook because he was a big shot in the IN if it were any other common man who killed another person because latter had consensual sex with former's wife he would not have been let off the hook , period. End of discussion.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Apr 2013 00:25

negi wrote:There is no need to be sentimental here I fckn don't know why people get so hyper; Nanavati got off the hook because he was a big shot in the IN if it were any other common man who killed another person because latter had consensual sex with former's wife he would not have been let off the hook , period. End of discussion.

shamelessly copied from somewhere on the web.

Section 497 of the Indian Penal Code is one of two sections designed to protect men from other men. Section 380 protects his goods and chattels, while Section 497 protects his wife.

Punishment for adultery is imprisonment up to five years. Given that the legal process usually takes twenty to twenty five years, it is likely that by the time you emerge from jail, you will no longer be able to get it up. Therefore, men planning to indulge in sexual congress outside of marriage are urged to consider the following.

a) It is only adultery if the said congress occurs without the permission of the husband. Hence, in order to avoid a jail sentence, it’s better to take written consent from him. This makes it legal.

b) It is not adultery if a married man has congress with an unmarried woman or a widow. In such cases, no penalty applies.

c) In case the matter is urgent, and it becomes essential to have sex with a married woman, try to make sure that the said sex is non-consensual. This does not qualify as adultery.

What can a man do if his wife has been bonked by someone else? The law is very clear on this point. He can prosecute the man, or men, as the case may be. However, he cannot prosecute his wife, even if she does it repeatedly, in his presence, in front of television cameras, with multiple partners, individually or simultaneously.

Which brings us to the good news for women. Women cannot be prosecuted for adultery in India. So go for it, ladies. This is one of the few laws which actually favours you. You might as well make the most of it.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Apr 2013 00:49

^ Boss what is your point ? Whatever you posted does not give a legal clean chit to shooting a person who committed adultery with one's wife, please note we are talking about LAW here not ethics/morals latter are subjective. Point being courts acquitted Nanavtai because of his antecedents and not because there was any merit in his actions if latter was the case then it wouldn't have been a rarest of the rare case even today for others to quote and bring up , point being the justice system in India is only for big shots and influential people.

In any case now that we are talking about Nanavati's case most of the dialogues in the quotes are all BS (testimony by other IN officers does not hold any water they would obviously say things in favour of their fellow seaman in this case an Admiral) ; the chap who was shot was dead so there is know way of knowing as to what exactly did he say when Nanavati went to his house; in any case what is alleged is too dramatic to trigger my BS meter. Also if we just stick to facts (as in known from whatever is published in papers); the FACT is Nanavati came to know of the affair from his own wife now how doe we know if she did not have feelings for the other guy ? What if it was she who initiated the affair ? How woud you know ? And in any case IPC does not legitimize killing wife's lover .

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Apr 2013 00:57

negi wrote:^ Boss what is your point ? Whatever you posted does not give a legal clean chit to shooting a person who committed adultery with one's wife, please note we are talking about LAW here not ethics/morals latter are subjective. Point being courts acquitted Nanavtai because of his antecedents and not because there was any merit in his actions if latter were true it wouldn't have been a rarest of the rare case even today for others to quote and bring up , point being the justice system in India is only for big shots and influential people.

Courts didn't acquit nanavati. The court even went as far as to order a retrial before a bench when the jury found him not-guilty. He was convicted, spent 3 years in prison and was then pardoned by the Governor. It was the government which pardoned him, not the courts.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Apr 2013 01:28

^ Well yeah I missed that part point was that system works only for the big fish. Question which people should ask is if any other common man would have done the same , would he have received a similar treatment ? Nanavati's case was brought up by Justice Katju to do an equal equal for Sanjay Dutt too because in both their cases the chap had committed a crime and there was no denying it.

titash · Post by **titash** » 19 Apr 2013 01:32

negi wrote:There is no need to be sentimental here I fckn don't know why people get so hyper; Nanavati got off the hook because he was a big shot in the IN if it were any other common man who killed another person because latter had consensual sex with former's wife he would not have been let off the hook , period. End of discussion.

Negi sirjee,

People get hyper because they are unable to say "chalta hai" to statements that other people can take rather casually. It's based on one's value system - plain and simple!

It is unfair to discuss the merits of a 50 year old case based on today's value system. To pass judgement, one would have to live in the India of 1958, understand how adultery was viewed back then, and compare evidence of differing treatments for big shot vs. small fry

In the US, till the 1960s, lynchings and segregation were par for the course. Does that make it right or acceptable in today's USA? No! But was it acceptable back then? You betcha!

Since you are passing judgement on the case irrespective, you should know that the jury declared him to be not-guilty by an 8-1 margin. Were they all fools to do so? Or did the sociopolitical environment of those times compel them to declare him innocent?

Food for thought...

<added after power glitch>

negi wrote:^ Well yeah I missed that part point was that system works only for the big fish. Question which people should ask is if any other common man would have done the same , would he have received a similar treatment ?

Isn't that a failing of a civilian government elected by us, as opposed to the navy? And we see this all the time, wherein politicos literally get away with murder, rape, and arson. These activities almost justify a petition to bring the British back...

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 19 Apr 2013 01:38

A few nitpicks on the Nanavati case since it being very passionately debated right now.

Negi Saab, he was a Commander and not an Admiral.

Chetak Saad, Prem Ahuja was not a Punjabi but a Sindhi...

Pentaiah garu, surprise surprise... I do know about this case

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Apr 2013 01:39

Titash lets not muddy the waters by alluding to some non-existent value system, and what do you mean by today's value system ? Are you implying that in today's value system adultery is in vogue ?

IPC has no place for such nonsensical sentiments and I will be afraid if people or judges start mixing their own sense of what is ethical/moral with LAW and I am afraid that is what you all are doing here .

Another point don't try to make this IN versus the Civillians some people on these boards have a tendency to do that; the elected Governor who pardoned Nanavati didn't do that in a vaccum he was influenced by latter's well wishers so please save us patronising tone.

PS: I am no one to judge Nanavati for I don't know the complete details; however what we do know is that he was pardoned by the Governor and it is a no brainer that such Pardons are only for high profile people not for common man whose letter itself won't make it to the Governor.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Apr 2013 02:26

Looking at the previous page, I can see that bringing in the Nanavati case is pentaiah's mischief, just like his stupid "Capt. Mulla screwed up" comment. Nanavati affair has no bearing on the current case. Neither of the people committing adultery back then (Ahuja and Nanavati's wife) were Naval officers, and there is no murder committed in the two latest cases(second one isn't proven yet). Besides, that trial eventually devolved into an inter-community fight and the government as usual was more interested in keeping their popularity high, than in ensuring justice.

As for people saying there is something rotten in the IN officer class, well, there are lots of things (and people) rotten in India as a whole. Inevitably, some of them will end up in the armed forces.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Apr 2013 09:07

negi wrote:^ Boss what is your point ? Whatever you posted does not give a legal clean chit to shooting a person who committed adultery with one's wife, please note we are talking about LAW here not ethics/morals latter are subjective. Point being courts acquitted Nanavtai because of his antecedents and not because there was any merit in his actions if latter was the case then it wouldn't have been a rarest of the rare case even today for others to quote and bring up , point being the justice system in India is only for big shots and influential people.

In any case now that we are talking about Nanavati's case most of the dialogues in the quotes are all BS (testimony by other IN officers does not hold any water they would obviously say things in favour of their fellow seaman in this case an Admiral) ; the chap who was shot was dead so there is know way of knowing as to what exactly did he say when Nanavati went to his house; in any case what is alleged is too dramatic to trigger my BS meter. Also if we just stick to facts (as in known from whatever is published in papers); the FACT is Nanavati came to know of the affair from his own wife now how doe we know if she did not have feelings for the other guy ? What if it was she who initiated the affair ? How woud you know ? And in any case IPC does not legitimize killing wife's lover .

I think that all should relax and take a step back.

nanavati was pardoned by the government of the day. Case ended and closed. The services was a vastly different setup in those days and it did not mirror the general society then as it does now. Consequently there have been attitudinal and motivational changes that would have been found unacceptable half a century ago. The youngsters in the services today and those of fifty years ago would not fit into each other's Navy. The changes are bewildering. This is true for all ranks. The officer class is comparatively less educated today as compared to the very educated and erudite other ranks and many such officers are just unable to hack it. I dealt with many such morons during the last phases of my service and it left a very bad taste in my mouth. The new breed of sailors are a joy and privilege to work with. Education shows sharply in the way they approach their duties and their attitudes are more positive and they will not put up with mediocre leadership. The new breed of officers has some dumbed down specimens who mostly bank on rank and privilege to run the show. They know more of their entitlements and actively avoid their responsibilities. They want things running on "auto" without knowing how to set up and motivate such "auto" systems seriously involving the men.
The relationship between the men and officers in the Navy is very unique and simply does not exist in the other services.It also calls for deep dedication from the officers towards their men. The level of technological effort mandates such close working relationships.

Accusations in the press such as those presently being bandied about has had a devastating effect on the men. A large majority of of these guys have a predominantly rural background. They tend to believe what is written in the press and are simply unable to reconcile it with the officers that they deal with every day.

The mores of the Indian society in general is bound to be reflected in all parts parts of the said society. Hypocritically holding one particular organisation to a higher standard in unwarranted. mandal has aready raised its ugly head in many places, in some places more covertly than others. Chaps like pentaiah seem to like bottom feeding in troubled and muddied waters. Outsiders commenting on the services society is just that--outsiders. Seeing something with coloured glasses is very subjective. A much pained discussion has already broken out on some very service specific blogs that reflect the anguish of the Naval community. What has happened is an aberration and not the norm as is slyly sought to be portrayed.

The nature and the very direction that discussion seems to be taking here is insidious. I and many others like me did not weigh in earlier but we were uncomfortable with the wild broad brush allegations and smear campaign as was seemingly unfolding.

Capt Mulla, nanavati and wife swapping all in the same breath??

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 19 Apr 2013 14:22

chetak wrote: I think that all should relax and take a step back.

The youngsters in the services today and those of fifty years ago would not fit into each other's Navy. The changes are bewildering. This is true for all ranks. The officer class is comparatively less educated today as compared to the very educated and erudite other ranks and many such officers are just unable to hack it. I dealt with many such morons during the last phases of my service and it left a very bad taste in my mouth. The new breed of sailors are a joy and privilege to work with. Education shows sharply in the way they approach their duties and their attitudes are more positive and they will not put up with mediocre leadership. The new breed of officers has some dumbed down specimens who mostly bank on rank and privilege to run the show. They know more of their entitlements and actively avoid their responsibilities. They want things running on "auto" without knowing how to set up and motivate such "auto" systems seriously involving the men.

The nature and the very direction that discussion seems to be taking here is insidious. I and many others like me did not weigh in earlier but we were uncomfortable with the wild broad brush allegations and smear campaign as was seemingly unfolding.

Capt Mulla, nanavati and wife swapping all in the same breath??

From your accounts it appears you served with the Indian Navy. So first of all, thank you for your service. Second, I wonder if you are comfortable weighing in on the actual comment that stirred up the hornet's nest "Mulla screwed up?" Since, as one is constantly reminded of on BR, we are in India and not the U.S., there are no forums run by and for military professionals where one can hear directly from people who have BTDT and are able to sometimes provide insights contrary to popular narratives - e.g. Scott O'Grady and Jessica Lynch.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Apr 2013 14:39

Chetak sir my post had nothing to do with the IN; in fact IN has nothing to do with Nanavati's case because it was a personal dispute gone bad. The only point I was trying to make was Nanavati got treated by the system because of his stature in the society at that time and not just based on his actions.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Apr 2013 19:41

negi wrote:Chetak sir my post had nothing to do with the IN; in fact IN has nothing to do with Nanavati's case because it was a personal dispute gone bad. The only point I was trying to make was Nanavati got treated by the system because of his stature in the society at that time and not just based on his actions.

Nanavati was the wronged party. He was also a very honourable man. In the eyes of his peers what he did was justified. I remember seeing the nanavatis as a kid. He had tremendous support from the civil society as well as the Naval society.

The society was different in those days. It was seen more as a matter of justification and honour than in purely political terms as is the norm today. mandal issues played no role then.

The entire Navy supported nanavati and his actions. It was not a personal dispute as you say. A man cannot waltz into another man's life and bonk his wife. The faker who did it had a reputation for repeatedly doing such things, It was not his first outing. He certainly deserved what he got. The opposite party was an acknowledged war hero who was taken advantage of.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 Apr 2013 19:44

RajitO wrote:
chetak wrote: I think that all should relax and take a step back.

The youngsters in the services today and those of fifty years ago would not fit into each other's Navy. The changes are bewildering. This is true for all ranks. The officer class is comparatively less educated today as compared to the very educated and erudite other ranks and many such officers are just unable to hack it. I dealt with many such morons during the last phases of my service and it left a very bad taste in my mouth. The new breed of sailors are a joy and privilege to work with. Education shows sharply in the way they approach their duties and their attitudes are more positive and they will not put up with mediocre leadership. The new breed of officers has some dumbed down specimens who mostly bank on rank and privilege to run the show. They know more of their entitlements and actively avoid their responsibilities. They want things running on "auto" without knowing how to set up and motivate such "auto" systems seriously involving the men.

The nature and the very direction that discussion seems to be taking here is insidious. I and many others like me did not weigh in earlier but we were uncomfortable with the wild broad brush allegations and smear campaign as was seemingly unfolding.

Capt Mulla, nanavati and wife swapping all in the same breath??
From your accounts it appears you served with the Indian Navy. So first of all, thank you for your service. Second, I wonder if you are comfortable weighing in on the actual comment that stirred up the hornet's nest "Mulla screwed up?" Since, as one is constantly reminded of on BR, we are in India and not the U.S., there are no forums run by and for military professionals where one can hear directly from people who have BTDT and are able to sometimes provide insights contrary to popular narratives - e.g. Scott O'Grady and Jessica Lynch.

tsarkar ji has already said all that there is to say.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Apr 2013 20:16

Ajay Sharma wrote: Chetak Saad, Prem Ahuja was not a Punjabi but a Sindhi...

Ahuja and Taneja are not sindhis but from multan.

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 19 Apr 2013 20:45

chetak wrote:
Jaeger wrote:^^ Excuse me, what exactly is a "low class English secretary type"? What is a "Panju business type"? And how is the criminal act of murder "the honourable thing" in a case of passion? What bullshit is this? Who the hell are you to sit and define "types" and then decide that murder is "honourable"? Boss, you don't live in some Victorian romance novel. It is not honourable to go and shoot someone because you have access to firearms. It is a crime. And your service in the armed forces (I'm assuming from past posts) does not give you the right to categorise people as "types" and whether they are "high-class" or "low-class".
Murder as honourable conduct. Wow.
Just quoting the prevalent mood at the time of the incident. There were a lot of mixed marriages in those days by folks who were returning from long training stints mostly ex UK and france. The ladies were mostly of the type referred to. A large number Indian families were livid at the choices that their allegedly bright wards had made. The Indian families concerned (in those days) were most very wealthy and upper class with a large sprinkling of minor royalty thrown in. They could immediately see what their baba had dragged in. The imported wives had a great difficulty fitting in and some simply gave up and went back as many also adjusted admirably well. Some like nanavati's wife continued to party on and met an untimely end. The social situation is very different these days and directly reflects the society at large.

It's a point of view of some fifty sixty odd years ago and you don't have to like it.

How accurate Chetakji- one of that secretary type is now ruling India - how pathetic..

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 19 Apr 2013 22:03

Maybe, on BR, we should enforce a ban on "getting offended".....

I cannot imagine why people get offended for statements that don't effect them in the slightest.
And then we get the most useless of "debates/discussions".

To change the topic, Chetakji could you point out some material on exercises/drills/tactics used in the IN?
Anything that describes in the detail, how a ship/flotilla would actually respond to a threat?

This is, as opposed to statements like "5 mizziles were launched and 3 ships destroyed." or "anti-submarine drills were practiced".
Or discussion about number of ships, missiles.

Anything that would allow characterization of behavior of ship/ships in terms of movement, time taken to maneuver, standard operating procedures and like.

--Ashish