Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
HAL is also putting tax payer money in R&D not personal money of babus.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
^A load of garbage that has been rehashed for a million times. Just a series of constant whines without any recognition of the constraints and difficulties DRDO faces and the step-motherly attitude of the IAF and IA. It is amazing how these "journalists" just assume all of this is like wiping their a$$ after a trip to the toilet and the DRDO is just one of those nasty people who just don't do it. I would go to the extent of wondering if this is some kind of paid article from the import lobby as they push back at the sight of shrinking future possibilities.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Cant believe a fighter can fly for 50 year in an Airforce , perhaps a very rare thing for any airforce to fly a major type for that long ...... 1963-2013 is 50 Years of Mig-21 and Bison will continue till 2017 atleast may be even longer wont be surprised if Mig-21 Bison reaches the target to 60 yrs.
Only bombers in hands of few nations are known to carry that long in service
Only bombers in hands of few nations are known to carry that long in service
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
^^
Another contender in that esteemed list would be F4 Phantom II, though I doubt it will also reach the 60 years mark (if we assume 1961 - year of induction in USAF) as the start date
Another contender in that esteemed list would be F4 Phantom II, though I doubt it will also reach the 60 years mark (if we assume 1961 - year of induction in USAF) as the start date
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
I am not sure but i think the Chinese still operate the older Mig-17/19/21 variant and i think they would continue to operate those for a long time ...perhaps even longer than IAF would operate its 21
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
The F-15 and F-16s will comfortably see 50+ years of service since they'll continue in service with some nations into the 2030s and 2040s. Obviously no one tail number will last that long but the type will definitely last that long thanks to the F-15E/SE and the F-16 block 50 that are just entering service with some air forces even now.Austin wrote:Cant believe a fighter can fly for 50 year in an Airforce , perhaps a very rare thing for any airforce to fly a major type for that long ...... 1963-2013 is 50 Years of Mig-21 and Bison will continue till 2017 atleast may be even longer wont be surprised if Mig-21 Bison reaches the target to 60 yrs.
Only bombers in hands of few nations are known to carry that long in service
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Turkey surely operates F4. IIRC, Turkey had accused Syria of downing one of their jets (which was a F4) last year
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Ok, but that does not mean that a new follow on order must happen immediately? Or does it? Any IAF statement on the same?indranilroy wrote:2015 is when the last PC-7 is going to be delivered.Sanku wrote: Indranil, I am lost (frankly), what is the magical date about 2015/17? I dont understand that. It seems to be coming more from HALs decision to muscle in on a existing contract than any other requirement.
Ok I am even more confused, if it is a fair field, where is the RFI/RFQ to multiple vendors including Indians?It is open to everybody else. HAL has got no assistance. It is fair field.Sanku wrote: If HAL can muscle its way in on a IAF contract which they have lost, and get themselves in, why not open it to others under conditions which work with them?
I may be missing something basic here, being a johnny come lately to this discussion, but I thought it was more of a unilateral move by HAL?
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Video on the proposed MiG-27 engine replacement with a Al-31 engine variant. Don't think that this proposed upgrade went anywhere and for some reason the IAF seems to have no real interest left in going beyond the upgrade it carried on 40 MiG-27s earlier this decade.
youtube link
youtube link
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
That is exactly the problem. The IAF seems to be moving away from the "jugaad" mentality that served it well from the 50s onwards to asking for the best available. "jugaad" is commonly confused with "chalta hai", but they really are different. Jugaad leads to economy of material use and is the essence of innovation - it only becomes a problem when it degenerates into "chalta hai".indranilroy wrote:
But will IAF accept such a plane. It did not accept the converted Grob.
Thinking from a self interest perspective, there is nothing wrong with asking for the best. The problem is there is a well known trade off between simply acquiring the best and building your way eventually to the best product. Heck in today's economic climate, even the USAF has to periodically come to the conclusion that its material is not the best. That does not stop it from building its way upward.
While this is well and good, there needs to be similar pressure on the PSUs to deliver. Otherwise promises are cheap. Couple it with punitive actions and maybe things will change

aharam wrote: A basic trainer doesn't have to be a Rolls Royce with plasma fusion engines. It's goal is to teach basic flying and combat maneuvers. The intermediate trainers job is to take you further. This is not beyond the reach of any competent group.
I think it is doable. Will it be the best or a compromise - the answer likely is a compromise. You can't catch up to decades of iterative design in a couple of years, even if technology has come a long way. Specs wise, this is not complex. Bureaucracy wise, it may well be too much to ask.indranilroy wrote: Definitely, a competent group can design and/or build a BTT. My question is can it build it by 2015? And serial produce it from 2017. I am doing back of the envelop calculations here. With rapid prototyping, the flying prototype can be built within 1 year. But before your flying prototype, the engine for the prototype needs to be instrumented, ejection mechanism tested, structural tests completed (these trainers are capable of taking 6-7 Gs). Given that these planes would be turboprops, the air intake has to be optimized and certified.
Cheerios
Aharam
[/quote]
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
All you great aviation photographers out there, the Indian Naval Aviation is celebrating their Diamond Jubilee celebrations on May 10 andMay 11 at NAS Hansa. See if you guys can attend this event including the seminars and, the air show.
More info at http://www.irfc-nausena.nic.in/DIAMOND_ ... ATIONS.pdf
More info at http://www.irfc-nausena.nic.in/DIAMOND_ ... ATIONS.pdf
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
People, a very sad day for Indian military aviation.
http://idrw.org/?p=21120#more-21120
'Tejas Grounds Medium Combat Aircraft Project'
The reason being(from the article):
The reason for the sudden decision to send the AMCA project—which began in right earnest in 2006 as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) development in 2006—to cold storage is to help ADA to focus all its energies to first work on completing the much-delayed LCA project. “The AMCA has been put on hold for the moment. This decision was taken recently to let the ADA focus on the LCA project,” top Defence Ministry sources told The Sunday Standard. The AMCA project, for which the IAF provided the final Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) in April 2010, may be taken up at a later date, sources said. But that will still be far away in the future.
Meanwhile Rafales will be bought. Can be described in one word: Pathetic.
Regards.
Rajendra
http://idrw.org/?p=21120#more-21120
'Tejas Grounds Medium Combat Aircraft Project'
The reason being(from the article):
The reason for the sudden decision to send the AMCA project—which began in right earnest in 2006 as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) development in 2006—to cold storage is to help ADA to focus all its energies to first work on completing the much-delayed LCA project. “The AMCA has been put on hold for the moment. This decision was taken recently to let the ADA focus on the LCA project,” top Defence Ministry sources told The Sunday Standard. The AMCA project, for which the IAF provided the final Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) in April 2010, may be taken up at a later date, sources said. But that will still be far away in the future.
Meanwhile Rafales will be bought. Can be described in one word: Pathetic.


Regards.
Rajendra
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Is any one a subscriber to AFM , the latest issue has write up on IAF Jaguar Upgrade Program
http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/view_issue.asp?ID=4848
If any one indeed has this article can scan up and post it here ? Thanks
http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/view_issue.asp?ID=4848
If any one indeed has this article can scan up and post it here ? Thanks
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Yes, IAF wants to order the follow on today! It has already asked DAC to clear the same. There is only HAL and MoD/MoF standing in between.Sanku wrote: Ok, but that does not mean that a new follow on order must happen immediately? Or does it? Any IAF statement on the same?
1. IAF had an RFP in Dec 2009, for buying 75 trainers "off the shelf".Sanku wrote: Ok I am even more confused, if it is a fair field, where is the RFI/RFQ to multiple vendors including Indians?
I may be missing something basic here, being a johnny come lately to this discussion, but I thought it was more of a unilateral move by HAL?
2. The rest of the 108 aircrafts were supposed to be built indigenously. But till date IAF doesnot account for how this will be undertaken. Out of this 108, 37 could be directly acquired from Pilatus (as IAF wants to do now). But what about the 71 more? IAF has only categorically said that there is no provision for HAL to license build them.
The fact is IAF has a large blame to take when it comes to basics trainer fiasco. It has shot down the HTT-40 3 times. Forget the HTT-35. HAL had started the work on HTT-40 from 2006, against the ASR IAF issued to them, without the sanction from GoI. It has invested its own money and is fighting the IAF on its own now. Any other company, private or otherwise is free to join the fight and provide a competitor to the HTT-40. Anybody game? I don't think so. Too much risk involved.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Canberra served 50 yrs with IAF--1957-2007.Austin wrote:Only bombers in hands of few nations are known to carry that long in service
Longest serving is the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk which first flew in 1954 and is still in service with several countries.Ajay Sharma wrote:Another contender in that esteemed list would be F4 Phantom II
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Not to worry sir ji will get it and post along with the live fire report bliss to be patient.Austin wrote:Is any one a subscriber to AFM , the latest issue has write up on IAF Jaguar Upgrade Program
http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/view_issue.asp?ID=4848
If any one indeed has this article can scan up and post it here ? Thanks
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Not so fast. HAL has NO money of its own. Everything is a free gift from MoD on behalf of the Indian taxpayer and they are answerable to no one. You keep forgetting that if HAL effs up again on the HTT-40 and takes 10 years to produce a substandard product, it will not go out of business and nobody in HAL will lose their job. This can only happen to a private company. HAL always has had and still has zero risk and this is precisely why they have built up such a stellar record. You are not doing India or the IAF any good by comparing these two polar extremes.indranilroy wrote:It has invested its own money and is fighting the IAF on its own now. Any other company, private or otherwise is free to join the fight and provide a competitor to the HTT-40. Anybody game? I don't think so. Too much risk involved.
India's DPSUs have all the inbuilt trappings and inefficiencies of the socialist/communist model on which they were based with none of the checks and balances. The Indian equivalent of the Gulag or the bullet to keep people on their toes and answerable is totally absent. We are crazy if we expect this to work long term.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
indranil,
HAL is promising to fly the HTT-40 by 2015 and failing which they are ok if IAF orders the 37 which is why IAF's haste is illogical. IMO by a follow on order now, IAF wants to make sure HAL is shut out of the BTT programme for good.
if MOD is saner, it should 'not' accede to IAF's proposal till post 2015 when most of the 75 deliveries would have taken place. also they would be in a better position to judge HAL.
spot on. i fully support HAL to go ahead with the programme irrespective of IAF buying/not buying it. let HAL develop and market it globally. but this hinges on MOD sanction!!!
IAF can order the 37 post 75 delivery too. in any case ordering now is not going to speed up the delivery and irrespective of when they order, the cost remains same too.Yes, IAF wants to order the follow on today! It has already asked DAC to clear the same. There is only HAL and MoD/MoF standing in between.
HAL is promising to fly the HTT-40 by 2015 and failing which they are ok if IAF orders the 37 which is why IAF's haste is illogical. IMO by a follow on order now, IAF wants to make sure HAL is shut out of the BTT programme for good.
if MOD is saner, it should 'not' accede to IAF's proposal till post 2015 when most of the 75 deliveries would have taken place. also they would be in a better position to judge HAL.
how else?? IAF would naturally demand for the sake of commonality, logistics and ease of operations 71 more Pilatus!! by forcing out HAL now it is easier to force the MOD for the additional number even though they will 'cost much more' - which Pilatus will use for sure as there would be no competition and i bet on this.1. IAF had an RFP in Dec 2009, for buying 75 trainers "off the shelf".
2. The rest of the 108 aircrafts were supposed to be built indigenously. But till date IAF doesnot account for how this will be undertaken. Out of this 108, 37 could be directly acquired from Pilatus (as IAF wants to do now). But what about the 71 more? IAF has only categorically said that there is no provision for HAL to license build them.
The fact is IAF has a large blame to take when it comes to basics trainer fiasco. It has shot down the HTT-40 3 times. Forget the HTT-35. HAL had started the work on HTT-40 from 2006, against the ASR IAF issued to them, without the sanction from GoI. It has invested its own money and is fighting the IAF on its own now.
spot on. i fully support HAL to go ahead with the programme irrespective of IAF buying/not buying it. let HAL develop and market it globally. but this hinges on MOD sanction!!!
not feasible for a pvt company now. as i said in my previous post, if MOD/IAF had made it an open competition '6 years or earlier' it would have made sense.Any other company, private or otherwise is free to join the fight and provide a competitor to the HTT-40. Anybody game? I don't think so. Too much risk involved.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Right now IAF have near about 34 sq , we are expecting 42-44 sq towards the end of decade & may more.
so there will be a place for HTT40 in future & HAL knows it , so let's just see what can HAL do ............
so there will be a place for HTT40 in future & HAL knows it , so let's just see what can HAL do ............
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
I have nothing more to say.Victor wrote:Not so fast. HAL has NO money of its own. Everything is a free gift from MoD on behalf of the Indian taxpayer and they are answerable to no one.indranilroy wrote:It has invested its own money and is fighting the IAF on its own now. Any other company, private or otherwise is free to join the fight and provide a competitor to the HTT-40. Anybody game? I don't think so. Too much risk involved.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
HAL should go ahead and MOD should support it. IAF is stubborn and wont come around unless prodded by MOD.
I have been thinking about this import/indigenous debate for some time. I think the best method should be that capex allocation should be split into 2 parts - Indian product and Imported product. So Defence forces would be forced to buy Indian products if it want to use full fund allocation.
I have been thinking about this import/indigenous debate for some time. I think the best method should be that capex allocation should be split into 2 parts - Indian product and Imported product. So Defence forces would be forced to buy Indian products if it want to use full fund allocation.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
So it will return unused funds.alexis wrote: So Defence forces would be forced to buy Indian products if it want to use full fund allocation.
What is new?
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Clearly HAL is pushing for a opening going against the wishes of IAF, at the same time, it is not even being opened to a larger set of suppliers. If HAL wants to be in, then MoD should create conditions for others to be in as well.pragnya wrote:not feasible for a pvt company now. as i said in my previous post, if MOD/IAF had made it an open competition '6 years or earlier' it would have made sense.Any other company, private or otherwise is free to join the fight and provide a competitor to the HTT-40. Anybody game? I don't think so. Too much risk involved.
There is no sense in giving HAL a opening and not others, especially for this project.
HAL straining itself for a basic trainer, where as we are told that they did not envisage the LCA line in time, is ridiculous. Perhaps HAL needs to focus on things already in its plate for which there is no alternative rather than waste its own and others time fighting for a basic trainer?
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Book launch commemorating 50 years of MiG -21
BANGALORE: A book "First to the Last: 50 years of MiG -215 with the IAF" was released at a function in New Delhi on Saturday night to commemorate the Golden Jubilee of MiG 21's historic association with the Indian Air Force.
Speaking on the occasion, the Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, appreciated HAL for its contribution pointing out that out of 874 aircraft 264 are still flying."The aircraft always has had aggressive edge and served the country during 1971, Kargil conflict, and was safe in many ways," he said.
Dr R K Tyagi, Chairman, HAL, said the production of MiG -21 was the beginning of a successful partnership with Russian agencies in the aviation sector.
"I am proud to say that the MiG-21 project stands as a beacon not only in the history of HAL but also as a close knit partnership between IAF and HAL", he added.
He said the MiG 21 signified Air Force superiority, growth of HAL in 60s, led to effective development of aerospace and defence industry in India.
HAL produced around 60 MiG-21 aircraft under license. The partnership has grown in strength with the license production of MiG -27 and Su-30 MKI thereafter till date.
The Russian Ambassdor, Mr. Alexander Kadakin and Mr. Sergey Korotkov, Director General RAC (MiG) also spoke on the occasion.
The book published by the Society for Aerospace Studies, New Delhi, is compiled by Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar (retd) and M. Pushpinder Singh.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
MiG 21 fighters likely to get 2-year extension
The IAF, which celebrated 50 years of the MiG 21 in its service with a book release function by Air Chief N A K Browne, has said that 264 fighters continue to remain in service and may even be part of the active fleet till 2018-19.
This is a two-year extension in service of the fighters — upgraded several times — that were scheduled to retire by 2017, as per Defence Ministry statements.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Sounds Good , Thanksandy B wrote:Not to worry sir ji will get it and post along with the live fire report bliss to be patient.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Great video of P-8Is weapon testing program. Damn it, they did the whole thing in 7 months!!!
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Thank you for your reply. I trust your judgement more than mine.aharam wrote: I think it is doable. Will it be the best or a compromise - the answer likely is a compromise. You can't catch up to decades of iterative design in a couple of years, even if technology has come a long way. Specs wise, this is not complex. Bureaucracy wise, it may well be too much to ask.
However in the modification of GA-8 to GA-10 (fitting of a turboprop + lengthening of fuselage), Mahindra Aerospace took much longer than 2 years. Though the designers and assembly line of the GA-8 were at hand.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Finally, an official quote on the definitive number of Mig-21s still in service. We usually just consider the Bisons and forget about the rest. This means it is still the most widespread aircraft in the IAF and will remain so for quite some time.The IAF, which celebrated 50 years of the MiG 21 in its service with a book release function by Air Chief N A K Browne, has said that 264 fighters continue to remain in service and may even be part of the active fleet till 2018-19.
It also means that the IAF has to replace 264 Mig-21s in addition to all the remaining Mig-27s in the next few years. Shows the enormity of the looming numbers crunch that the IAF is facing.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
IAF has no problem with decaying Mig-21s but huge difficulty inducting LCA at present level. IAF is doing an Arjun on LCA.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
With all due respect to Philip ji.vic wrote:IAF has no problem with decaying Mig-21s but huge difficulty inducting LCA at present level. IAF is doing an Arjun on LCA.
Replacing Mig 21 with Mig 21 in 2013 just does not make sense.
The use of Mig 21 fleet is ONLY to get the challenge in terms of numbers, not in terms of level of the aircraft.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
400 a.c will be gone by 2020 - in just 7 yrs time - 264 Migs and 140 (older jags, all the Mig27)
- 150 MKIs still to be produced (incl the 40 super30)
- 120 MRCA
that makes only 270
gap is still 130. no doubt the new a/c are more powerful but we surely need numbers to cope with a 3000km of land border and another 2000km of water.
- 150 MKIs still to be produced (incl the 40 super30)
- 120 MRCA
that makes only 270
gap is still 130. no doubt the new a/c are more powerful but we surely need numbers to cope with a 3000km of land border and another 2000km of water.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
LCA mk-1 even in its basic form is far better than the Mig-21/ Mirage/ Mig-27, they just need to increase order book of the LCA mk-1 to around 120 while they work in parallel on LCA mk-2+ to be ready circa 2017.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
Singha wrote:400 a.c will be gone by 2020 - in just 7 yrs time - 264 Migs and 140 (older jags, all the Mig27)
- 150 MKIs still to be produced (incl the 40 super30)
- 120 MRCA
that makes only 270
gap is still 130. no doubt the new a/c are more powerful but we surely need numbers to cope with a 3000km of land border and another 2000km of water.
3000 km would be just the Paki side. China side would be another 3000+ km. Then Myanmar+BD is also there (though they may not req. IAF).
As the crow flies may be smaller figure but still.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
A production order of 40 Tejas 1 are now few years old. After these are produced and the aircraft are delivered if the IAF does not use them then there might be a reason for complaint.vic wrote:IAF has no problem with decaying Mig-21s but huge difficulty inducting LCA at present level. IAF is doing an Arjun on LCA.
The order for LSP aircraft was to let the production agency gear up and start the SP seamlessly. That has not happened.
It is unfair to blame the IAF at this stage.
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
IAF order is not in effect as of now. First batch of 20 SPs an only be produced after IOC-2 and second batch of 20 after FOC, so it is conditional order. Order would have been if they would have accepted 40 LCA per LSP-8. That's why I am saying IAF is doing an Arjun to LCA
Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
They are dragging it along so that a future crisis gives a portal to pull in more emergency imports like 80 more mrca and perhaps more mki.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- Jan 10 2012
The fact of the matter is, LCA is still not with the IAF, the certification of the aircraft needs to be done by CEMILAC, and this has not been completed because of non achievement of milestones by the ADA/HAL team. So statements such as IAF is doing an Arjun is simply not fair. LSP 8 wasn't held up because of the IAF. The IAF had already instituted a committee headed by an Air Marshal level officer years ago to oversee the successfull induction of the aircraft. Now, if the aircraft is still not able to meet its deadlines due to genuine developmental reason, the IAF is in no way to be blamed for that. The gravity of the situation can be judged from the fact that while a few years back, the then IAF chief was making statements such as Mig 21 Bisons would begin to be phased out by 2015, now the incumbent is stating that they will remain in service possibly beyond 2018. That is not a comfortable situation, and the IAF knows and understands that more than anyone else.IAF order is not in effect as of now. First batch of 20 SPs an only be produced after IOC-2 and second batch of 20 after FOC, so it is conditional order. Order would have been if they would have accepted 40 LCA per LSP-8. That's why I am saying IAF is doing an Arjun to LCA