Internal Security Watch

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 19 Apr 2013 10:14

Vijayk is gult and not a paki posting from pakistan (as far as I know). And as with most gults, leans on the right of center due to political situation (heck..who isn't right of center on this forum).

Secondly, if I am living in India, paying 3rd of my income in taxes, and I see agencies failing me and my folks from protecting against frequent terrorist attacks, I am well within right to criticize and curse the related agencies for not doing their job.

This is the right thread to voice their criticism. Intelligence agencies don't have to respond here on this thread...they just need to ensure the safety of the citizens. Results should do the talking.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 19 Apr 2013 10:24

Satya_anveshi wrote:
This is the right thread to voice their criticism. Intelligence agencies don't have to respond here on this thread...they just need to ensure the safety of the citizens. Results should do the talking.

That said Intelligence work is one of those jobs which are "truely thankless" as they come into focus only when some thing goes wrong. Same with policing.

My point is that ,it is more sensible to hold the political heads of those departments responsible rather than the nameless officers who man them. The days of value neutral bureaucracy are long over (since IG) and all the ills plaguing our national security have to be squarely placed at the feet of the inept/corrupt and votebank pandering Congressi politicians who head them.

Fact is that the same group can immediately shine under an able leader.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Apr 2013 10:26

Thank you for that comment kittoo. Then we also need people to complain with equal vehemence about completely unacceptable language used against elected officials, government selected officials, etc. Don't you find that unacceptable? Is it OK to do that? And well before anything is proven or demonstrated or anything of the sort. People like you, who post valuably, also need to pull up others who systematically undermine the forum...

As you know, I post like this specifically for a reason. Any general reading of my posts will show this is not what i do, go around accusing posters of this and that. But if one's mind allows one to label in a blanket way all of our intelligence apparatus people as "pigs", then be prepared to be called a paki mofo. That is exactly how a paki mofo will label our intelligence people, as "pigs" - because those are the most reviled animals to them.

Do you know vijayk? I don't and even I did, how could I know that he was not a paki or in the pay of a paki? We accuse our own elected leaders of being paki sympathisers at least with much less justification.

And remember, when someone reports this on some blog, or facebook, it will be said that the intelligence operatives were called "pigs" in the Bharat Rakshak forum, they may not even mention the poster's name, and even if they do, who do you think will lose more? People who love the forum need to think a bit more deeply before posting.

Thank you for giving me a reason to explain a bit more clearly my thinking on this.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 19 Apr 2013 10:36

JE Menon wrote:Thank you for that comment kittoo. Then we also need people to complain with equal vehemence about completely unacceptable language used against elected officials, government selected officials, etc. Don't you find that unacceptable? Is it OK to do that? And well before anything is proven or demonstrated or anything of the sort. People like you, who post valuably, also need to pull up others who systematically undermine the forum...

As you know, I post like this specifically for a reason. Any general reading of my posts will show this is not what i do, go around accusing posters of this and that. But if one's mind allows one to label in a blanket way all of our intelligence apparatus people as "pigs", then be prepared to be called a paki mofo. That is exactly how a paki mofo will label our intelligence people, as "pigs" - because those are the most reviled animals to them.

Do you know vijayk? I don't and even I did, how could I know that he was not a paki or in the pay of a paki? We accuse our own elected leaders of being paki sympathisers at least with much less justification.

And remember, when someone reports this on some blog, or facebook, it will be said that the intelligence operatives were called "pigs" in the Bharat Rakshak forum, they may not even mention the poster's name, and even if they do, who do you think will lose more? People who love the forum need to think a bit more deeply before posting.

Thank you for giving me a reason to explain a bit more clearly my thinking on this.

Menon ji all I saying is that I thought a warning should have done it. But I did say that the banning was well within your right. I understand your point of view too.
I am more opposed to him being called 'paki mofo', that's it. There are very few things worse for a nationalist Indian than to be called paki mofo.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 19 Apr 2013 10:41

Lilo wrote:That said Intelligence work is one of those jobs which are "truely thankless" as they come into focus only when some thing goes wrong. Same with policing.

My point is that ,it is more sensible to hold the political heads of those departments responsible rather than the nameless officers who man them. The days of value neutral bureaucracy are long over (since IG) and all the ills plaguing our national security have to be squarely placed at the feet of the inept/corrupt and votebank pandering Congressi politicians who head them.

Fact is that the same group can immediately shine under an able leader.

Understanding that some jobs are thankless is a perspective that few (not all) will have and should have. I would argue that most commoners should NOT have that perspective and should be ruthless in driving accountability to the fault.

VijayK's point was that it has become difficult to hold right political heads (or of those departments) accountable as they allegedly manufactured the evidence based on the wishes of the current masters.

Merits of the argument aside, I think the view point understandable to me. Only the "pig" part I believe was perceived to be overdone.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Apr 2013 10:54

Kittoo,

So now he will know what it feels like when he calls all intelligence people "pigs of Intelligence". You know, some of these people read the forum, and they are human beings like us. Their jobs may be not so glamorous, many of them make peanuts, it is tiresome, tiring and bloody boring as well, and still do it day in and day out out of a sense of commitment to the nation - all the nation, nationalists and otherwise. If vijayk had to face a 30-something intelligence employee with dark circles around her eyes because of constant workload - who knows full well the complexities of our country, the problems and the difficulties of actually getting something done, and yet struggling on for those little victories and hopefully some big ones, and yes may even share some of his views - would he call her the same?

We need to empathise with these people whom we regularly ridicule and criticise a bit more. Congress wallahs are not uniformly oiseaules. There are people who are trying to work from within the system, young idealistic ones and even some older ones. They know what the issues are and where the problem lies. Similarly not all so called "right-wing" people are all bug-eyed nutcases either, nor are they all corruption free and above question. A little more balance in perspective, a little thought before spewing any old bile, a little empathy towards other posters...

I'm a right leaning guy, and I want like bloody hell that Modi gets to PM. But can we call a chap who refers to our intelligence agencies in that way a "nationalist"? It suggests a complete lack of pride in what we have managed to build up through hard work, and years of persistence and stubbornly putting our shoulders to the wheel. India and its institutions may not be much in the grand scheme of things, but what we are we are, and we did it largely ourselves and we are heading to a much better place, if our own don't pull it down.

This is the "Bharat Rakshak" forum, after all.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Apr 2013 10:58

JEM just for the record, a number of time the entire IA has be called similarly names, on many threads, I did report some of the posts, but then moderators said "do not go crying when participating in a thread".

Why are such blanket accusation across entire IA etc allowed to stand?

JFYI. (I agree that such blanket name calling has no place on BRF)

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Apr 2013 10:58

>> Their jobs may be not so glamorous, many of them make peanuts, it is tiresome, tiring and bloody boring as well, and still do it day in and day out out of a sense of commitment to the nation - all the nation, nationalists and otherwise.

I knew this was coming. And this is the fundamental point of disagreement.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 19 Apr 2013 11:00

*** of Intelligence was uncalled for. But I hope the ban is not permanent. Menon ji, with you on the ban but Vijay's frustration got the better of him rather than him being a paki mofo.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Apr 2013 11:03

Sanku, macha... the admins are doing whatever they can... Have you seen what is happening? It is virtually across all threads. Help. Don't get provoked no matter what and guide with decent words. Even if they don't desist, the simple fact that you bring some sanity to the discussion will help. Plus those observing will note that multiple views are aired freely without ganging up etc. You are more than capable of it.

And others too, why are people silent and letting such stuff get by. But don't get drawn by provocation at the same time and get into a slanging match. Register your counters politely and firmly.

Chandragupta, of course the ban is not permanent!!! I'm not a complete nutcase, only a little

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Apr 2013 11:09

>>I knew this was coming. And this is the fundamental point of disagreement.

And that is absolutely fine. All I'm saying is that in disagreeing, do it without abusing entire institutions, deriding elected officials etc and questioning participants' motives. (I'm not saying you personally are). Argue the case freely. It is impossible that in a forum of X000 individuals, everyone will agree on everything; I personally woudn't belong to a country like that.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 19 Apr 2013 11:16

>> All I'm saying is that in disagreeing, do it without abusing entire institutions...

That sounds fine to me. A statement like "Every X is Y" is generally wrong (or completely uninteresting). We all can agree that some intelligence officials are great whereas some others are ...not-so-great. The relative sizes of these two sets is unknown to me.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 19 Apr 2013 11:28

JEM saar,
I am better able to understand your point of view after that clarification post. Before that I was confused.

But, VijayK saar may have meant to direct his abuse against those who undermine the security by not going after the real threats and instead trying to prop up imaginary threats. Wiki Leaks posted by him show that Samjhauta was handiwork of LeT. Yet, there are attempts to try to portray it as the work of 'saffron' terror. So, his frustration and tirade may have been against such attempts using the intelligence orgs. The abuse may not be against all the people working in such orgs. But rather against those who are using it for political purposes even if it undermines the desh's security situation.

Maybe he should have been given a chance to explain what he meant when he said that. Sometimes the words don't convey the intention properly.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 19 Apr 2013 11:39

Marten wrote:
shyamd wrote:No sh*t sherlock
So basically you agree "certain sects of Islam" practise prostitution based on what the tenets of their sects allow. Might as well have added this to your first post.

No S*it Marten

Do you even know that the *ig* of Saudi intelligence regularly extradite Indian Mujrahideen no 3.11113s, they build massive express-ways for us, they invest trillions of dollars in our economy with the sole aim of making us a super-power. Don't tell me you cant ignore a little bit of prostitution that happens here and there, Insha Saudia

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Apr 2013 18:51

Maybe I am not helping : but we should try and get rid of our habit of using "pig/hog/swine" as an abusive epithet. Without being aware of it we are actually following the Islamic mindset - which specifically looks at certain animals in an athropomorphic abuse-context.

"Indics" should try and get out of the habit of copying islamic memes in India that made dogs and pigs - abuse. For the islamic or mullahcracy these animals represent specific rival deities to their's. [Hekate/Shakti in case of dogs and El Shaddai/shaitan/devil through the NewTestament story of Jesus lobbing the devil into a pig].

For Indics - one was a manifestation of Vishnu, and the other was of Yama/Dharma.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 19 Apr 2013 20:01

>>but we should try and get rid of our habit of using "pig/hog/swine" as an abusive epithet. Without being aware of it we are actually following the Islamic mindset

I guess that is what pissed me off the most... and who it was used against. I can easily imagine ISI oiseaules referring to our guys in those terms.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Apr 2013 03:44

JE Menon wrote:No abhishek, every thread is about this... Sadhana's question is that berating the government of India appears to be the primary focus, or turns into a major focus, on virtually EVERY thread. No one is talking about defending the government or anything like that, but why is that constant lamentation on every thread is the question...

Because people are frustrated, disgusted, and the more intelligent and aware a person is, the more disgusted they will be with the charade that is the Govt of India. It does not govern in many cases, but merely exploits. The success stories that it has in a handful of technocratic organizations too are deliberately limited, lest they interfere with the gravy train of imports etc that their success may imperil.

The fact that you, one of the most senior and respected posters don't get this simple and basic truth, tells me that you don't share the frustrations we ordinary Indians experience on a daily basis. Perhaps you are a NRI and are hence living in a system which is much better in terms of rule of law & civility than the farce that is the Indian state today, perpetrated on Indian citizens by a single political party and its mechanism of power, which includes pliant Govt officials who prostrate at its feet. You are lucky to be part of a system that appreciates your contribution and treats you as a valuable resource, and gives back to you.

That is not what the GOI does. It exists on the politics of patronage and cares two hoots for the common citizen. You can get caned and crippled, if you are an old woman. You can be blown to bits in a terror attack, happening every other month, and Govt of India functionaries will compete with each other to either downplay it or placate their political bosses. You can be a street vendor and give half of your earnings everyday to the so called protectors.

The current Govt has looted the country dry, while essential infrastructure is crumbling, and their attitude has worsened the attitude of the average person who feels that easy money is there for the taking, and if you can't beat them, join them.

In another post you mentioned that there are patriots who have "dark circles under their eyes" and would feel "upset" at what this forum thinks of them. Worry not about their feelings sir, because they care two hoots about yours.

Did the charade of Hindu terror take place under these gentlemen's watch or not? What sort of competent patriots run any sort of organization/s, that cannot prevent the umpteen attacks that took place in India and continue to take place, while a pliant media runs glowing articles on their dubious successes. The fact of life is that an average Indian's life is pretty worthless in India today. I can quote umpteen examples of this, but if you have power and you are connected to the state, that is the GOI, you can get away with the worst abuse of power, with only a cosmetic slap on the wrist. In fact, the single organization in India whose mandate it is to keep the citizen safe, behaves like an extended arm of the current ruling dispensation and spends time tracking electoral alliances. The so called Indian FBI, spends most of its time persecuting politicians and individuals who fall afoul of the Govt. Tweedledum and Tweedledee. Where is the time and interest to actively do what they are supposed to, when placating the politicians (and securing their own cozy retirement shindig) is what matters most to them?

You are quite right that it is lamentation. Because it is. The average middle class person in India has absolutely very little hold on the system of power that is in India, run by a deliberately opaque and corrupt GOI, which exists to serve and protect those who control access to money, which in turn brings power. It would be more than lamentation, if anyone here, had any actual miraculous power to change anything in the system. Not if they are engaged in having to maintain a regular life of any sort.

The past two terms of Govt, many years worth have been wasted in a total loot of public resources. This has nothing to do with one's political choices or idealogy. The current PM is a gentleman who is least bothered about any of these activities and has been assiduously used to mask the corruption (and he is ok with it, otherwise he would not have remained in power and stuck to his position like a limpet). The DM has run the acquisitions process to the ground, has not made any headway in modernization of the MIC, and prefers to give sermons wherever possible and not take action. Each department of the Indian apparatus has a similar sordid tale. The GOI is now rotten, from the inside out and quite frankly they don't care. What will the average citizen do?

Please come back to India, if you are already not here, though I would not advise you to move back permanently. Then watch your opinion of what is going on in India today, change. Because then you will understand why the lamentation. Most of us are here for various reasons - patriotism, family, personal choices etc - but the exploitation by the GOI is across the board.

If things remain the same, we are well set to experience another huge brain drain or whatever its called, from the drain that will become the urban landscape here in India. And its a darn sight better than what passes for acceptable in rural India, feel good stories of changing times apart. Thats probably the least of our problems

Because, the middle class is still better off compared to the poor in India. Coming to the future, Arundhati Roy's "critiques" apart, there is a severe challenge, or will be, when the vast numbers of youth who are now idling around, and being still churned out, end up facing a future without jobs and with a hard scrabble competition for beneficial employment, which is again strangled due to a corrupt system which tries to extract every bit of money from the individual.

I think it was Arun Shourie who described the Indian state as a tree, with an iron fence, rotting thanks to the termites within. He was probably prescient and understated the problem by a huge margin.

When we were growing up, we made this distinction that things were bad, but there was a difference between the GOI and these "others" and the state as such was beneficial and benevolent, even if inefficient or limited in its abilities. Its a hard truth now to realize that the state is actually a beneficiary of the corruption and lack of accountability and its representatives often encourage it.

Perhaps a Narendra Modi or whosoever can come in & shake the system up. Perhaps. Because if there is one thing clear over the past 2 successive terms of Govt, its that an already bloated system which doesnt care for its own people, has now turned for the worse, and thinks nothing of it

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Apr 2013 03:58

funny part is that a deranged ex-babu calls the forum as saffron forum and all of sudden s.h.i.t falls on this forum. It might be true let's correct it attitude starts. Some hugely popular seniors probably due to their vardhakhyam and who has taken several u-turns in their views over a decade says this has become a UPA/India bashing forum. Suddenly "Oh my God" situation comes and a knee jerk reactions follow. With no offence to anyone, this is disappointing behavior.

India's government is no better than Idi Amin/Marcos type government. The democracy and fundamental duties of the governance are subverted to highest levels.

Just see the news today. A five year girl was raped in the rape capital of India and a lot of foreign bodies were shoved through her vagina. She is alive but a hapless protester was slapped by the ACP. The government is still very very cool as they don't bother because they were successful in creating a formula of win or lose the election they can still be in power.

The same anger that helpless Indians vents comes on to the digital world.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Apr 2013 04:36

Muppalla, the truth is that social media, including the forums etc is probably the only place people can publicly tell the truth. And the number of people doing so is miniscule but is still hard to suppress, so the GOI will ultimately move to kill it, or enforce it with all sorts of coercion.

Also, the truth is that we are a third world country, playing at being an ancient civilization, holding onto some ancient belief system with morals, ethics etc. To be honest, the number of people one now meets, with those attributes, can be counted on one hand. This extends across the board and the conflict/confused identity is most rapid amongst those thought historically suppressed - i.e. the weaker gender, so called oppressed caste groups within the larger community etc. Mention anything practical or against the prevailing narrative and thats bad

In the meanwhile, the ever present attitude amongst many of the economic lower classes apart from the ethnic groups, is that "sab chalta hain", because after all, GOI/state is also like that. So they elect leaders who loot them more without realizing it.

In the Delhi rape case, the criminals were habitual offenders. They had bribed/used the corrupt system so many times, that they were absolutely sure they'd get through without being caught. And it would not be any big deal for the jaded Indian public either, but for the brutality with which that girl was killed. And lets face it, these frustrations, these savage feelings are all too common in a dysfunctional society which exists in a hard scrabble existence and is also unbound by any law and order, which anyways exist to serve idealogical preferences (see our Pardon Committee of India chairman for an example) or the rich and powerful.

In the meantime, all the excesses of the "more advanced civilizations" are being picked up and propagated with gusto. Alchohol, smoking, drugs - you name it, its going on, but without the restraint that age or caution brings. Plus all the moral gray areas which were hitherto frowned on - adultery, promiscuity etc. You know you have crossed a barrier, and not for the better, when there are multiple ads on TV showing such topics as punchlines. A national newspaper has a supplement which often descends into soft ***** - another launched by a so called intellectual praised on this board because he berates Pakistan, was nothing but the same.

There is also the other issue. In our current system, do anything to get ahead, and its all good. This was much the same 3 decades back, when IG's socialist state started stifling every personal avenue for growth and the competition to get ahead by hook or crook began. The brief liberalization period was good economically & brought a lot of hype and hope, but it also accelerated our process of creating a baywatch generation which is going to have its own costs, human & social.

Its all very well to state that these are "growing pangs" and one day we'll return to our "roots" or advance, but it just seems ludicrous when seeing the near complete decay in standards across the board. The generation which built this country (and to their discredit were absolutely conned or foolish in still electing these "leaders" like Nehru/IG/RG who corrupted the edifice of the Indian state), were still to a degree, personally ethical. Such is not the case now.

Its pretty hard to remain optimistic in such circumstances.

#1. At the level of ordinary people.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/delh ... nce-356283

When she was found, her father says the police offered him Rs. 2000 "to keep quiet". He said they advised him, "Thank God that she has been found alive." (Read)

Those allegations and the police's insistence that it had acted promptly to help the family left protesters seething at the Swami Dayanand hospital where the child was admitted after she was found.

A police officer was caught on camera slapping a woman demonstrator; he has been suspended.

No comments necessary on how "strict" the above result was to make the system more accountable to the public.

#2. http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/coal ... 62078.html

No comments necessary

And these are just the tip of the iceberg.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Apr 2013 04:48

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1442997

The termite families and their political slaves are simply a passing in history of this great nation. There is a bigger objective at stake. The lilliput leadership of this nation continued colonial government's model, laws, justice system, administrative system, police, education system and most importantly the history of this great nation. Since these lilliputs are not colonizers themselves, they even failed to show the efficiency the colonizers demonstrated in harnessing those colonial structures.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 21 Apr 2013 06:22

Life in India is all about connections
Swapan Dasgupta

I am not being facetious. Last week, I read in the papers that one SMA Kazmi, said to be a journalist, who has been charged with involvement in the attack on an Israeli diplomat by Iranian terrorists two years ago, has used his bail period to start an Urdu newspaper that is ironically called Qaumi Salamati (national security). I am not prejudging either the verdict of the court or the quality of the prosecution’s case. What I found revealing was that the inaugural function of Kazmi’s media venture was attended by the Chief Minister of Delhi, the Chairperson of the Minorities Commission and leaders of at least two political parties. What interests me is that a person charged with having links with terror groups that targets the diplomat of a friendly country, can secure political insurance with such ease.

In Boston, two blasts reaffirm the determination to stamp out terrorism; in India, life is all about connections.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... tions.html

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 21 Apr 2013 09:46

Good post Karan M. On topic, polite and eloquent. Your opinion of me or my views are fine too. No issues on my side. As long as basic forum rules are observed. As for whether I'm in India or nri etc its not forum business.

Muppalla pls do not attribute motives to forum participants. It is the quickest route to a slanging match and the way out. Desist please. B Raman was our chief of counter intelligence and spend decades in the business serving the country. I know I will never be able to do for my motherland in my lifetime what he did in the space of a year. He is now elderly and from what I understand quite ill. He can have any view of the forum he wants just as you can. Maybe a little leeway can be given to him. A little respect. A little understanding. In your view he may be a "deranged ex-babu" but do you really want to call him that to his face ie in public on a forum he still is a member of?

Stay on thread topic and be civil.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 21 Apr 2013 12:44

The posts by Karan M, are highly descriptive and evocative. They do paint a very thorough black and white brush on a very large number of people though. I am sure that the people in those positions would have far more nuanced world views, and might think of themselves as right.

Is it possible that they virtually, ask everyone in India about their opinion and then do something about things?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 21 Apr 2013 13:15

Karan M ji. Your posts are completely on dot. You have analyzed the situation correctly.

It is amply clear that the economic dividend from liberalization years is now getting over (short of any disruptive event such as election of Namo and Namo being actually successful in reviving India). Despair is setting in fast. Manufacturing sector(whatever there is) is in shambles. Instead of improving Manufacturing, plans have been made for turning India into a dumping ground for western and chinese goods.

Police force is more of a Jobs program. Whereas joining the Police is today seen as a lucrative business opportunity for many youngsters in areas with perennial unemployment problem. You invest certain amount of money and make much more. Anyway The primary task of India's police force is not to protect the citizenry, but instead to protect the rulers from citizens. Just like it was in the colonial era.

For all talk in compromised and corrupt media of unleashing enterpreneurship, only crony capitalism exists in the country. If you have connections you will flourish. If you don't then you will wither away. Ideas and talent does not matter, only connections do.

Moral fabric of the nation is being torn apart by media/films/tv one thread at a time. Crass programming, Sensationalism and slapstick comedy is becoming the routine.

Education system is focussed only on producing Corporate Wage slaves who will exist to serve the masters (just like macaulite system designed to produce clerks for serving Brits) instead of developing true character. Even these jobs are no longer enough for the vast numbers of unemployed people trying to enter the workforce.

In addition, a common person has been completely disarmed, demilitarized and rendered helpless for any kind of crisis. He has no choice but to rely on Govt. which itself is completely unreliable and oppressive to the boot. Democracy was supposed to create Freedom and empower a common citizen. Hell a farmer in 16th century India had more freedom and was more empowered than a corporate citizen of today.

Today one can rape a girl in front of her father/brother/friend and he cannot save her because he does not have the tools. Because ostensibly it is the state's duty to protect its citizens. The only problem is that state has abdicated its duties completely.

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 21 Apr 2013 19:42

Mukesh bhai to be provided 'Z' category security courtesy of his 'dukaan'.

Mumbai: RIL Chairman Mukesh Ambani is the new entrant to the 'Z' category VIP security club after the Union Home Ministry recently approved an armed commando squad following threat perception to the business tycoon.

The Home Ministry has tasked country's lead anti-Naxal operations force CRPF to take the responsibility with immediate effect after the proposal to this effect was cleared by the office of Home Minister Sushil Kumar Shinde.

Under the 'Z' category security, Mr Ambani will have a pilot and follow-on vehicles with commandos armed with sophisticated weapons and they will give him proximate security every time he moves in Mumbai or any other part of country.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/mukes ... eststories

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Apr 2013 08:39

JE Menon wrote: B Raman was our chief of counter intelligence and spend decades in the business serving the country. I know I will never be able to do for my motherland in my lifetime what he did in the space of a year. He is now elderly and from what I understand quite ill. He can have any view of the forum he wants just as you can. Maybe a little leeway can be given to him. A little respect. A little understanding. In your view he may be a "deranged ex-babu" but do you really want to call him that to his face ie in public on a forum he still is a member of?

India has over the last few years seen the emergence of many high quality news sites that take a right of center position. These include Niti Central, Centreright.in and FirstPost...If there is any one single development in India that points to hope for the future and that Indians have it in themselves to change for the better - it is this resurgence of high-IQ right-wing websites in a country that has traditionally been in the deathgrip of outdated, intelligence-stifling leftist-socialist thought.

B Raman is an 'old school' analyst whose understanding of economics, and modern liberal thought is extremely poor - and he has taken it on himself to take a go at all such websites.

Couple of tweets from B Raman regarding Niti Central:

Don't feel Niti Central is a pro-India site.It is NaMo's site out & out.NaMo & followers r not the only patriots

Feku, if u think @NitiCentral is going to make U PM,U R having some fond hopes #feku

So, B Raman's diatribe against BR is simply part of a general campaign he has going against any site that dares to raise anti-Dynasty issues. It is possible that B Raman's views on security deserve respect (though I wouldn't be competent to judge that aspect) - but when he attempts to go beyond security into areas of political thought, economics and many others that are far beyond his level of competence, demanding that his views be heard with respect, is in my opinion, not quite the sensible thing to do.

There can be 'understanding' perhaps for his age and illness - but to demand 'respect' for his views in fields where it is not deserved would not be correct.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Apr 2013 23:09

Lest we forget, right after Lt Saurabh Kalia and his troop of six soldiers were brutally killed and their dead bodies bore marks of torture. B Raman came on this very fourm and made remarks about how "soldiers are paia to die" etc. He was roundly shouted down and never came back expect to browse.
So he has mixed track record. There are many retired intel professional who don't say things like that.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Apr 2013 23:33

Arjun wrote:
JE Menon wrote: B

B Raman is an 'old school' analyst whose understanding of economics, and modern liberal thought is extremely poor - and he has taken it on himself to take a go at all such websites.
Couple of tweets from B Raman regarding Niti Central:\
So, B Raman's diatribe against BR is simply part of a general campaign he has going against any site that dares to raise anti-Dynasty issues. It is possible that B Raman's views on security deserve respect (though I wouldn't be competent to judge that aspect) - but when he attempts to go beyond security into areas of political thought, economics and many others that are far beyond his level of competence, demanding that his views be heard with respect, is in my opinion, not quite the sensible thing to do.
There can be 'understanding' perhaps for his age and illness - but to demand 'respect' for his views in fields where it is not deserved would not be correct.

Another peculiarity of these old schoolers is the worship of Gora /WEST opinion as benchmark for Indian interests. Always ready to cut, undermine sons of soil . Old men always demand respect when they cant command respect.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 23 Apr 2013 01:01

ramana wrote:Lest we forget, right after Lt Saurabh Kalia and his troop of six soldiers were brutally killed and their dead bodies bore marks of torture. B Raman came on this very fourm and made remarks about how "soldiers are paia to die" etc. He was roundly shouted down and never came back expect to browse.
So he has mixed track record. There are many retired intel professional who don't say things like that.

Also was it not on his watch that 1993 Mumbai bombings happened and also a key piece of evidence (tying the bombing to TSPA) lost in the US when it was sent for some tests. so I say he has a mixed record as a public servant for GoI.

B Ramanji is taking on a political character and is writing from one side of the political spectrum so his writings will be criticized by those on the other side of the political spectrum. No need for this false izzaat nonsense etc. If he enters the kitchen then he better be ready for the heat else he can choose a peaceful retired life writing non-political opinions about the nations safety and we will all accord him the izzaat he deserves.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 Apr 2013 17:16

JE Menon wrote:Good post Karan M. On topic, polite and eloquent. Your opinion of me or my views are fine too. No issues on my side. As long as basic forum rules are observed. As for whether I'm in India or nri etc its not forum business.

Muppalla pls do not attribute motives to forum participants. It is the quickest route to a slanging match and the way out. Desist please. B Raman was our chief of counter intelligence and spend decades in the business serving the country. I know I will never be able to do for my motherland in my lifetime what he did in the space of a year. He is now elderly and from what I understand quite ill. He can have any view of the forum he wants just as you can. Maybe a little leeway can be given to him. A little respect. A little understanding. In your view he may be a "deranged ex-babu" but do you really want to call him that to his face ie in public on a forum he still is a member of?

Stay on thread topic and be civil.

Now I have bloody seen everything. JEM hero worshipping that lobotomized moron who said that soldiers are paid to die. Too bad one can't put admins on an ignore list.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 23 Apr 2013 20:28

Sad situation. That too from you merlin, a long time member. When all that has been done is a call for decency in the use of language...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Apr 2013 21:23

I have grave doubts on B Ramans skills when he was in intel too.

Reading his analysis of Malaysia (where he was posted at some point) does not inspire any confidence

plus his rush to write an article before the embers have even cooled down does not give him any chance for informed writing

He is kind of like Katju - except he writes more and talks less

BTW what is this diatribe against BR?? link please - I know he sulked away post kargil but do not remember the diatribe context

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 23 Apr 2013 22:21

JE Menon wrote:Sad situation. That too from you merlin, a long time member. When all that has been done is a call for decency in the use of language...

A forum is an informal one. No one here need to write in a language that goes on record. Agreed that usage of foul language should be discouraged at all costs but not to criticize is not going to do any great to this forum IMVHO.

B.Raman or those who has taken several U-turns in their views are all in my opinion suffering from a sanskrit word called "vaardhakyam". It is the same word used in Malayalam too

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Apr 2013 22:24

achha chalo, jaane do, too much discussion on this topic.

Let us move on.

archan · Post by **archan** » 23 Apr 2013 23:10

merlin wrote:
JE Menon wrote:Good post Karan M. On topic, polite and eloquent. Your opinion of me or my views are fine too. No issues on my side. As long as basic forum rules are observed. As for whether I'm in India or nri etc its not forum business.

Muppalla pls do not attribute motives to forum participants. It is the quickest route to a slanging match and the way out. Desist please. B Raman was our chief of counter intelligence and spend decades in the business serving the country. I know I will never be able to do for my motherland in my lifetime what he did in the space of a year. He is now elderly and from what I understand quite ill. He can have any view of the forum he wants just as you can. Maybe a little leeway can be given to him. A little respect. A little understanding. In your view he may be a "deranged ex-babu" but do you really want to call him that to his face ie in public on a forum he still is a member of?

Stay on thread topic and be civil.
Now I have bloody seen everything. JEM hero worshipping that lobotomized moron who said that soldiers are paid to die. Too bad one can't put admins on an ignore list.

no you havent. Continue like this and you will see more. Cease and desist or find another place to spread your wisdom. Warning issued.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 24 Apr 2013 12:09

When BR debates on folks berating government, making fun of ex-babus etc, it is business as usual in the 100% literate state.
PFI activists held from Kannur have terror links: Police (Mathrubhumi: English)
....
Some PFI leaflets, an identity card and a human dummy were also recovered from the building; they said Police gained information on terror links after quizzing them. Some among the accused have planned murder and even executed them and some gained expert training.

The commies of the state are more worried on a Hindu Mutt becoming communal because Narendra Modi was invited there. Yet to hear the comments on the above issue of NDF/PF continuing their terror tricks in a district dominated by the "secular" commies

.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 24 Apr 2013 12:25

Surya wrote:I have grave doubts on B Ramans skills when he was in intel too.

Reading his analysis of Malaysia (where he was posted at some point) does not inspire any confidence

plus his rush to write an article before the embers have even cooled down does not give him any chance for informed writing

He is kind of like Katju - except he writes more and talks less

BTW what is this diatribe against BR?? link please - I know he sulked away post kargil but do not remember the diatribe context

Indeed.
This is what BRaman had to say about Priyanka

If you succeed in persuading your coalition partners to support his candidature for the Presidential polls, the Congress should persuade Priyanka Gandhi to enter the political scene and take over the leadership of the Congress and the coalition as the Prime Minister.
The nation wants to see a Prime Minister who is a bundle of energy and enthusiasm and who commands attention without having to thump the table.
From whatever I had seen and heard of Priyanka, she is that bundle of energy and enthusiasm.

With such open political slants , it is difficult to take him seriously.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 24 Apr 2013 13:03

Even less so with this tweet captured here:

http://www.deeshaa.org/2012/08/30/the-s ... r-b-raman/

But the things we say on BRF, and the words used, reflects on BRF...

But then again, he also said this:

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 110415.htm

Anyway...

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 24 Apr 2013 16:50

Sachin wrote:When BR debates on folks berating government, making fun of ex-babus etc, it is business as usual in the 100% literate state.
PFI activists held from Kannur have terror links: Police (Mathrubhumi: English)
....
Some PFI leaflets, an identity card and a human dummy were also recovered from the building; they said Police gained information on terror links after quizzing them. Some among the accused have planned murder and even executed them and some gained expert training.

The commies of the state are more worried on a Hindu Mutt becoming communal because Narendra Modi was invited there. Yet to hear the comments on the above issue of NDF/PF continuing their terror tricks in a district dominated by the "secular" commies .

Iran link also - one Kish Island ID card was found.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 24 Apr 2013 18:01

JE Menon wrote:Sad situation. That too from you merlin, a long time member. When all that has been done is a call for decency in the use of language...

Sorry there man, got carried away a tiny wee bit

But that guy really gets my goat, what to do Pavlovian response to anyone coming to his defence.