Indian Autos Thread

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 Apr 2013 12:25

Gus wrote:anybody bought Duster here? friend is looking for a crossover.

Considering one but the high price puts me off. The introductory price was much, much better but nobody knew about Renault's intention to stay put in India for long (considering Peugeot ran away).

Its supposed to be a very rugged vehicle well suited to Indian road conditions and has a high ground clearance coupled to good ride quality. Cheap interiors let it down.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 23 Apr 2013 12:26

Marten wrote:(keeping in mind the lack of funding for additional rail lines on Harbour or Central).

Kya sir? Harbour line main space kahan hai? You can literally piss into peoples homes from the local.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2013 13:00

for the price tag the duster interior is too small (not VFM). if he wants tbhp street cred should get a mahindra thar and a rugged outdoorsy girl to match.

if someone has a family esp parents in the picture dont understand how swift fits in the picture - the ritz is better but better yet go for a I20 or Ertiga atleast. stop giving in to the Dark Side, the anger and aggression that makes swift drivers floor the pedal and walk on the side of Dharma.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Apr 2013 13:11

here's my rough take on indian car scene

non-maruti indian companies - cars are of poor quality finish, panel gaps etc. these get their major parts from good suppliers and add a lot of features to make up for some selling points, but in reality these are just poorly put together packages and not a thoughtful refined product. These sell well in rural markets but city slickers / itvity won't touch these due to status issue.

premium foreign cars - snobs who look down upon us and sell what is a budget car elsewhere as a premium car, mainly because of poor quality indian cars are generations behind on refinement, look and feel etc.

foreign cars positioned for mass sales - these guys give a seemingly good product but a HUGE difference in trim levels. Their base model price point targets maruti and you get 'status' car, but even BASIC features will be missing.

Maruti - gives a good quality fit and finish car (better than non-Indian, but less than foreign premiums), middling features on trim levels, and gets no real challenge even charging premium.

Two things need to happen...Tata, mahindra etc need to up their refinement drastically and foreign companies need to put a better package. Offering cars with no central locking in this day and age is just :facepalm:

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 23 Apr 2013 13:57

Sriman

Pls. no saar vaar business. To be honest, Swift is not worth the 1L premium or Swift in v and l trim is not worth at all due to poor brakes, skinny tires, and lack of equipment levels. I fell for the dark side forces of resale value of the car, the fun to drive, arguably the bes tuning of the fiat engines, nice slick gear shifts, steering that is reasonably weighted at all speeds, sporty looks and fun to drive factor but for family use, it is no no. Ritz is more practical but feel even that is overpriced these days when you compare a figo.

Gus is spot on but over the last few years, Maruti is also cutting corners big time and shows on the quality of the breaks, swift's window glasses, parts with lower MTBF.

On duster, the 85 ps model seems economical but has no features. The middle and higher trims are costlier and not worth the cost being paid with poor interiors. The car has such is good - sedan like ride and handling, nice engine, excellent ground clearance, suvish look but the price is a put off especially for sdre banias. While tbhps quest for Raptor at bhandar's prices continue, our quests for a decent mrca still continues

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Apr 2013 15:13

That is what maddens and infuriates me..you look at a car..looks interesting..and then you look deeper and realise how the game is being played. There is no good car that scores on all three factors 1. build quality, fits and finish, looks, "status" etc, 2. basic features and safety features thrown in at low trims, 3. price. All of them score only one or two of these.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 23 Apr 2013 20:01

How is the vista D90 ZX+? How does it compare with Swift?

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 23 Apr 2013 20:15

Ritz is more practical but feel even that is overpriced these days when you compare a figo.

Bought a Ritz LXI (petrol) four months ago. Maruti did not bother to put head rests on the back seat (the upper edge of which ends much below the shoulders). SHQ had a neck pain on a long journey as there was no place to rest her head and catch a nap. In the rear view mirror, I could see her head rolling around without any support as she slept -- I kept cursing Maruti the whole way for neglecting rear seat comfort to save one thousand bucks.

I had to get the rear head rests separately installed. There is no central locking -- it is cumbersome to operate those tiny knobs inside that go for locks -- it is a pain to twist from the driver seat and manually open all doors for passengers to get in. Have this got separately installed now, as well as the back spoiler. I am kicking myself for not going for VXI as it has both head rests for the back seat and central locking as well as the spoiler.

Otherwise, I am happy with the car. It is giving me 15 to 16 km average in back to back city traffic. Front seat comfort is great. The suspension is great and the car feels sturdy to drive. AC is good. It takes time to get used to driving a car with a tall posture.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2013 20:33

Itvity munnas tend to go for polo, vento, city , jazz, swift, ritz, i10, i20 for a start..very few other cars seen in itvity parking lots. Then a smattering of verna, civic, corolla, xuv500, scorpio ( keralites fond of 4x4 types)

As soon as senior munna engineers got themselves corolla type sedans, the directors and above ran out and got themselves skoda superb, accord, bmw , audis and mercs! Differentiation and personal branding

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Apr 2013 01:41

does chevy forrester still sells in desh?

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 24 Apr 2013 06:20

SaiK wrote:does chevy forrester still sells in desh?

It doesn't. Good car.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 24 Apr 2013 17:58

Sriman wrote:
SaiK wrote:does chevy forrester still sells in desh?
It doesn't. Good car.

Yes a very good car (Subaru) and was on my wish list but even used forresters are hard to find. And who knows about spare parts.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 24 Apr 2013 20:15

subaru forester is very good. close to 3 years ownership now. mostly SHQ drives it. simple vehicle without too many bells and whistles, but solid mechanical fundamentals. audio is poor, but performed like a rockstar in adverse conditions including a recent massive canadian storm. we live on a hill, and SHQ has no complaints.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 24 Apr 2013 20:30

Subaru fondly called as Subba Rao
is very good design and all of their models all all whel drives. Their transmission and differential gear box are compact yet sturdy.

They like Toyota Camry and Honda accord are designed to go well ove 300,000 miles with out much problems subject to periodic oil changes and tune ups.

Another car of that size (compact and small ) is Daihatsu diesels

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 25 Apr 2013 10:13

My swift is now 3 years old. Since I bought a zxi model, I have

a] alloy wheels
b] Auto Climate control
c] Seat height adjustment
d] ABS
e] Airbags

She has not aged at all, zero-rattling. I drive 100% A/C. Fuel average is always at 13 km.

The engine response is fantastic. Annual servicing does not cost more than 4k.

The ride is so silent, my folks go to sleep on highway runs. It comfortably seats 4 adults including driver. And now with junior on the way, we can accommodate him/her without issues.

I dont have any ideas of upgrading to a sedan or a diesel. She fits my requirements to a T.

Regular servicing + occassional visit to 3M makes her look good as new.

Family is very attached to the car and shout at me when I make a noise of upgrade.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 25 Apr 2013 10:22

Sridhar K wrote:Sriman

On duster, the 85 ps model seems economical but has no features. The middle and higher trims are costlier and not worth the cost being paid with poor interiors. The car has such is good - sedan like ride and handling, nice engine, excellent ground clearance, suvish look but the price is a put off especially for sdre banias. While tbhps quest for Raptor at bhandar's prices continue, our quests for a decent mrca still continues

And on the duster......

Do people around these parts know how shitty European cars are when they age? They cost the earth and more to repair and maintain.

American cars are the cheapest....Japanese require less maintenance, but are pricey....and European require a lot of very pricey maintainence.

Exactly like the MMRCA , I say!!!!

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Apr 2013 13:55

Renault engines that were used in the early Zen Diesel and Esteem diesel have clocked on an avg 200,000 kms without any issues. And that too in Indian conditions. Similarly the Peugeot 407 or is it 409 that had a brief stint in India was also very popular due to it's diesels.

btw can anyone point out a good hatchback with good driving position for short drivers (w/ good visibility) from the Punto, Polo, Figo, Liva, i20, Micra. Needs to be a good highway mile-muncher and thus ruling out tinny maruti-types and i10.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Apr 2013 14:53

Regarding Ex and OTR I normally add 16-18%. For constitutes the diff.

Lifetime Road Tax- 10-12%
Insurance- 2-3%
Extended Warranty, registration, transportation charges- 1%
Extras-1%

BTW: changed tyres for my 5 and 1/2 accent for 23k, moved to silica based continetal tyres from carbon black based tyres.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 25 Apr 2013 20:32

American cars are the cheapest....Japanese require less maintenance, but are pricey....and European require a lot of very pricey maintainence.

why?
because

American caars fail frequently hence lot more spares are consumed and hence manufactured there fore cheap.

Japanese les maintenance hence less demand for spares less manufactured hence price

European cars badly made, spares are alos badly made and the name Europe gives them some sort of niche hence expensive over all.

but once upon a time British cars were made very sturdy, Austin of England, Morris, Vaxhaul, Standard cooper mini etc etc

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 26 Apr 2013 12:32

Marten wrote:Mahadevbhu, how about Renault selling the Nissan models/platform as its own? (Leave aside the Dacia/Duster here).

PRECISELY.

Therefore, the origin of the vehicle is important.

The Ford small car series is coming largely from what it learnt from allying with Mazda. Those are good.

The Chevy Cobalt., Cruze come from its short lived alliance with Toyota in the NUMMI factory in California. That model is good too.

The Chevy Spark comes from the defunct Daewoos Matiz. Thus....that car is a shitty car.

If Renalt Duster. engine and drivetrain is Nissan, I daresay it would be better than avg.
But do you know the actual inside story??

And I can make any Merc drive 200,000 miles.
Deal is...how peacefully?? and how cheaply??

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 26 Apr 2013 14:22

pentaiah wrote:
why?
because

American caars fail frequently hence lot more spares are consumed and hence manufactured there fore cheap.

Is it still the same? Haven't they been working on improving their quality recently, after the crash and restructuring.

manish · Post by **manish** » 26 Apr 2013 15:10

habal wrote:Renault engines that were used in the early Zen Diesel and Esteem diesel

That would be the Peugeot TUD5 1.5L engine IIRC, and not a Renault unit. Peugeot mills also did service in the Mahindras those days - the XDP 4.9 and the XD3P did service in a range of vehicles right upto some of the more upmarket Boleros till recently.

habal wrote: Similarly the Peugeot 407 or is it 409 that had a brief stint in India was also very popular due to it's diesels.

That was the Peugeot 309 (the 309GLD was the diesel variant IIRC), with the same 1527cc TUD5 unit used by the Zen D and the Esteem D. Premier Automobiles did the best it could (like it did with FIAT Uno earlier) to screw it up totally on the market.

manish · Post by **manish** » 26 Apr 2013 15:43

mahadevbhu wrote:
PRECISELY.

Therefore, the origin of the vehicle is important.

The Ford small car series is coming largely from what it learnt from allying with Mazda. Those are good.

mahadevbhu saar, IMHO, that sounds like a bit of a stretch. I am sure that Ford Europe/UK might be a bit uncomfortable with that assertion, given their track record in developing acclaimed small cars such as the Fiesta and the Escort. There has been collaboration on and off with Mazda including with the latest Fiesta which has crossed the Atlantic to reach stateside but Ford's European small car line-up had made quite a name for itself on its own is what I gather.

mahadevbhu wrote: The Chevy Cobalt., Cruze come from its short lived alliance with Toyota in the NUMMI factory in California. That model is good too.

Cobalt? Cruze? NUMMI? Toyota?!

mahadevbhu wrote: The Chevy Spark comes from the defunct Daewoos Matiz. Thus....that car is a shitty car.

Correct with regards to the 1st gen Spark which supposedly has its origins in a rejected FIAT hatchback design later sold to Daewoo in the 1990s. Current one is a GM-designed product.

mahadevbhu wrote: If Renalt Duster. engine and drivetrain is Nissan, I daresay it would be better than avg.

Engine in the diesel variant is the Renault K9K 1.5dCi - result of a co-development with Nissan.

mahadevbhu wrote: But do you know the actual inside story??

No, would love to know.

mahadevbhu wrote: And I can make any Merc drive 200,000 miles.

Impressive indeed.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 27 Apr 2013 02:11

mazda and ford have collaborated since 1979. now....if that does not lead to tech transfer...i dont know what does.

hope junta tries to figure out what the genes of the car are, before buying them. read consumer reports....yes...even for india.

cruze came from cobalt came from prizm/cavalier. very reliable , cheap cars.

!

Harry S. Devon · Post by **Harry S. Devon** » 27 Apr 2013 06:00

Ford fusion/hybrid is doing good except in Europe. I think they are thinking hard why they are failing there.
Ford is one company which matches up to Japanese level quality.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 27 Apr 2013 07:43

No influence of Mazda on ford the 323 copy Ford focus only difference name plate they shared Flat rock assembly line
It was to cheat the Cafe standards
So was the case of Chrysler and Mitsibushi
So was GM with Suzuki/ Toyota /Isuzu

Harry S. Devon · Post by **Harry S. Devon** » 27 Apr 2013 08:28

Correct. But, off late, Ford of the big 3 is the only vehicle that can do some serious work to match Japanese quality. Without the Toyota hybrid engine, even Ford would not have seen better sales.

But, some years back Ford trucks were #1.. now over taken by Toyota. This remains true even after the Tsunami and nuclear shutdowns.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 Apr 2013 11:56

Are there "American Cars" here? I don't think so, at least not in the A,B,C,D categories. There is no real relationship with US auto scene here.

The Fords (Ikon, Fiesta, New Fiesta, Figo) all came from Australia IIRC, with some EU contribution. They have nothing to do with USA.

GM came in with "You are too poor to have Chevy, take Opel" route (like VW did. Take Skoda, they said). Later they figured that we desis are sucker for badges, and re-badged the Daewoo crap they bought as Chevy. Nothing USA about it either. The Aveo was Daewoo. The Optra was Daewoo. The Spark is derived from Daewoo Matiz and updated by Daewoo resources. The Cruze did the same. USed the Daewoo facility and engineers.

The only thing American in these cars is the Logo Art.

We are just suckers who think the "crap of the prajapathi is amruth", to quote the inimitable O V Vijayan.

There are several "Only in India" moments in the auto scene here:

1. Skoda is a premium brand.
2. Upto three generations of the same car is being sold at the same time under different names.
3. Same engine powering a range of cars from a range of mfrs
4. Same car being sold under different names by different companies.
5. "Premium Brands" selling cars at a higher price with features much lower than other brands.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 27 Apr 2013 12:05

^^
One more: Corolla is a premium car worth shelling 14 lakhs for.

You're spot on about Indians being suckers for badges.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 27 Apr 2013 14:22

There are several "Only in India" moments in the auto scene here:

1. Skoda is a premium brand.

Sure. If they sell good stuff under the hood, even Avon cycles will be a premium brand in due time.
The question to ask is, whats under the hood?

2. Upto three generations of the same car is being sold at the same time under different names.

This is very common, globally. VW will sell the same car as Audi. And Audi will just SLIGHTLY jazz it up and sell it for a lot more.

3. Same engine powering a range of cars from a range of mfrs
4. Same car being sold under different names by different companies.

ditto.....quite common globally.

5. "Premium Brands" selling cars at a higher price with features much lower than other brands.

Anyways, what is a good value car to buy right now in the Indian market?

Hyundai I10, I20?
Maruti WagonR? (i am 6 feet plus)

My budget is less than 5 lakhs. Priorities are, in that order; 1. safety, 2. reliability, 3. service, 4. Price 5. fuel economy,
No idea about this.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 27 Apr 2013 14:40

mahadevbhu wrote: Anyways, what is a good value car to buy right now in the Indian market?

Hyundai I10, I20?
Maruti WagonR? (i am 6 feet plus)

My budget is less than 5 lakhs. Priorities are, in that order; 1. safety, 2. reliability, 3. service, 4. Price 5. fuel economy,
No idea about this.

Petrol or Diesel?

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 27 Apr 2013 14:41

^^^

either is fine.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Apr 2013 14:50

^ clearly you have no idea how indian market is.

it is impossible to give correct choices without knowing petrol or diesel. for ex, diesel vista is a decent car for its category and petrol vista is a crappy car.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 27 Apr 2013 14:53

mahadevbhu wrote:^^^

either is fine.

If you want both airbags and ABS, for that budget you'll have to rule out Diesel. Both AStar and Wagon R cost a little less than 5L for top end Petrol. For 50K more you can get the Figo petrol Titanium and the Beat Petrol LT (O). i10 and Brio will run close to 6L for top end variants. Spark and Estilo are much cheaper but i'm not sure if you get airbags in those.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2013 16:09

When is tata going to develop something new and exciting over the dated vista and manza? Same old looks for 15 yrs now.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 27 Apr 2013 16:52

Singha wrote:When is tata going to develop something new and exciting over the dated vista and manza? Same old looks for 15 yrs now.

When Toyota eats their lunch in the fleet business and sets their behinds on fire. Already happening, their numbers this year are terrible.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 27 Apr 2013 17:37

more than looks etc (which i concede is important, just not for me...I am the guy who went to massa dealership and they had only one manual shift and I said I'll take it...the sales guy said, he does not know what color and I said, I don't care, whatever color it is, it is just fine

the wife was horrified to learn that..she was all praise for me picking a good color car

)

the fits and finish is really hopeless. atrocious panel gaps. squeaking windows. not getting even small things that will go a long way in refinement - like the blower fan noise (I think it is designed to be noisy to drown out the engine noise..

)

They can easily push up their numbers a lot given that major parts are almost the same in all these cars and it is just differentiation in build and packaging that is driving difference in sales.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 27 Apr 2013 18:54

Sriman wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:^^^

either is fine.
If you want both airbags and ABS, for that budget you'll have to rule out Diesel. Both AStar and Wagon R cost a little less than 5L for top end Petrol. For 50K more you can get the Figo petrol Titanium and the Beat Petrol LT (O). i10 and Brio will run close to 6L for top end variants. Spark and Estilo are much cheaper but i'm not sure if you get airbags in those.

Also,

How does one buy a good second hand car in India? How to do the research on it, and buy it?

Only from known sources or open market?
Craigslist?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 27 Apr 2013 19:33

120 PS cars in India being passed off as "muscular"!

I am 6 foot plus and the only hatchback which would give me good head and driver leg room when I bought the car in 2009 was the wagon-r. I do go down the highway once in a while and I have a prayer on my lips as the car doesn't have ABS or air bags.

Looks like the regressive mindset is setting into the US as well? As of 2009 when I left massa cruise control stopped being part of the standard package?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Apr 2013 19:42

I am 6' and not too bulky. my attempt to fit myself inside a honda city was a failure. the windshield is so raked back the upper margin of the glass was uncomfortably near my forehead ..this was after lowering the seat to the lowest possible level. despite being smaller I can fit comfortably within a santro and i20.

Mbhu - maruti and M&M have dealer based 2nd hand car business iirc.

I dont know what tata was sitting on for last 5 yrs. a roomy and cheap competitor to the manza and indica was inevitable and the Etios/Liva is it. it was bound to happen. perhaps they bet too much on nano bringing volumes instead of working hard on a Indica and a Indica-mini replacements.