Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

John · Post by **John** » 30 Apr 2013 07:03

Aster missile ran into problems when the British tested it from Daring DDG which resulted in accusation that French didn't even properly test their system before they installed it on their vessels.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Apr 2013 07:32

John wrote:Aster missile ran into problems when the British tested it from Daring DDG which resulted in accusation that French didn't even properly test their system before they installed it on their vessels.

Never came across this do you have a source ?

John · Post by **John** » 30 Apr 2013 09:56

It was discussed a while back quick googling find this article on it

MBDA reports Aster 30 test success

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Apr 2013 10:06

The comment section quotes Janes saying it was a production issue that caused the problem and not missile issue.

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Nav ... ation.html -

"An investigation has identified 'production weaknesses' in recent batches of Aster missiles, according to the (UK) MoD.

"Jane's understands that the munitions' structural integrity was impaired by a production engineering change...."

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Apr 2013 11:43

Usual and hilarious and typical Canadian..

Watch nuclear new boy India
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/683164

A new 15,000km missile capable of hitting North America is also in the works under cover of India's civilian space programme.

But not all Indians are so delighted, particularly those on the left who ask how their nation, with one third of all the world's poorest people, can afford to spend tens of billions on advanced weapons, including nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers, and ICBM's.

Sabyasachi · Post by **Sabyasachi** » 30 Apr 2013 15:16

dinesha wrote:Usual and hilarious and typical Canadian..

Watch nuclear new boy India
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/683164

A new 15,000km missile capable of hitting North America is also in the works under cover of India's civilian space programme.

But not all Indians are so delighted, particularly those on the left who ask how their nation, with one third of all the world's poorest people, can afford to spend tens of billions on advanced weapons, including nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers, and ICBM's.

The author is a paki paid pet.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Apr 2013 17:05

Austin wrote:The comment section quotes Janes saying it was a production issue that caused the problem and not missile issue.

If one looks at current arguments about the LCA, they are all production issues, not aircraft issues

John · Post by **John** » 30 Apr 2013 18:07

Reminds me of the time when Big 3 used to blame all their quality problem on production issues and suppliers. Those additional batches were also procured by other navies not just UK but regardless fact remains even French missile systems have high profile failure. They were lucky Royal navy just so happen use them for their testing.

koti · Post by **koti** » 30 Apr 2013 18:20

dinesha wrote:Usual and hilarious and typical Canadian..

Watch nuclear new boy India
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/683164
..............

Delhi is making steady progress in reducing poverty and disease, and in trying to break down the pernicious caste system that dooms a quarter of Indians to lives of misery.

OMG..... I would be craving to be born or considered into these one quarter.... Does he not know of reservations?
This poodle needs to watch more recent documentaries on India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Apr 2013 20:25

What to expect from Eric Margolis?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 May 2013 13:44

From the DRDO Chart it appears ATGM Nag does a 800 mm RHA penetration beyond ERA protected RHA

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BjJawA0qGh0/U ... G+ATGM.jpg

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 May 2013 17:32

Austin wrote:From the DRDO Chart it appears ATGM Nag does a 800 mm RHA penetration beyond ERA protected RHA

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BjJawA0qGh0/U ... G+ATGM.jpg

Actually it claims 800m penetration. Shelf the Brahmos, this is India's first true carrier killer missile.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 May 2013 20:29

koti wrote:
dinesha wrote:Usual and hilarious and typical Canadian..

Watch nuclear new boy India
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/683164
..............

Delhi is making steady progress in reducing poverty and disease, and in trying to break down the pernicious caste system that dooms a quarter of Indians to lives of misery.
OMG..... I would be craving to be born or considered into these one quarter.... Does he not know of reservations?
This poodle needs to watch more recent documentaries on India.

This author is patronizing India and Indians as a religious west and pretending to be objective in the global world of nuclear powers
They are mocking India and Indians with these kind of articles.
With China they had none of these kind of nonsense article when PRC went nuclear.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 May 2013 21:26

800mm for a top attack missile will kill any vehicle on this planet

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 May 2013 23:39

Austin, Now that Nag is going to be airborne as HELINA can we compare the specs with say Hellfire?

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 04 May 2013 00:49

dinesha wrote:Usual and hilarious and typical Canadian..

Watch nuclear new boy India
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/683164

A new 15,000km missile capable of hitting North America is also in the works under cover of India's civilian space programme.

But not all Indians are so delighted, particularly those on the left who ask how their nation, with one third of all the world's poorest people, can afford to spend tens of billions on advanced weapons, including nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers, and ICBM's.

Saar - the author is a typical Brzezinsky-ite Islam-pasand writer from Canada (although he was born in US). He has written several articles exculpating Hitler from blame for attacking the Soviet Union, pro-Paki articles about Kashmir, and accused India, Israel, Philippines, Russia, etc of `genocide'. It is not even surprising. His mum was an Albanian Muslim, and the Islamist side surfaces very often. All in all, except for some comic relief, he is not of any importance, I would say.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 04 May 2013 20:04

India's nuclear deterrence capacity is in place, the country can sleep well: Defence research chief
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india ... ief-362765

New Delhi: In a big step towards securing India's capabilities for nuclear deterrence, the reactor on board India's indigenously made nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant will become operational in three weeks. After that, INS Arihant will be ready for sea-trials and will subsequently be commissioned to the Indian Navy. (Read)

Dr VK Saraswat, the chief of the Defence Research and Development Organisation or DRDO, shared these exclusive details with NDTV's Science Editor Pallava Bagla and asserted that India's nuclear deterrence is robust. He also spoke about the Agni-V missile project, and made a pitch for a shift from global buying to indigenous technology development and procurement of defence equipment. Here is the full transcript of the exclusive interview:

NDTV: What is happening with the Agni series of missiles now? What is the next phase?

VK Saraswat: Agni Series of missiles are in an advanced stage of production. Today, as you remember, we have completed development of Agni I, Agni II, and Agni III. Agni IV and Agni V are in an advanced stage of development. And this year, you will see two more launches of Agni V, which will culminate its complete developmental activity and it will be led to production. Agni IV is already getting into production mode. So with this - Agni I, Agni II, Agni III, Agni IV, Agni V - getting into production mode, the next logical corollary as far as the long-range ballistic missile deterrents capability of this country is concerned, we will switch over to force multiplication. Force multiplication in the case of ballistic missiles will be by way of multiple independently manouevreable re-entry vehicles (MIRV).

NDTV: Meaning one missile which can carry many war-heads?

VK Saraswat: Carry multiple warheads. Our design activity on the development and production of MIRV is at an advanced stage today. We are designing the MIRVs, we are integrating it with Agni IV and Agni V missiles, and that would also give us the capability to cover a vast area plus deliver in the event any activity requires a number of payloads at a required place.

NDTV: So will the next test be with a multiple warheads system or...

VK Saraswat: No. The present task, as I was mentioning, will be only with the normal configuration of Agni V. But there will be an experimental test in which we will be testing the MIRV capability.

NDTV: So that would be what? Agni VI or...

VK Saraswat:No we are not naming it Agni VI... it will be Agni V missile with MIRVs.

NDTV: So Agni V plus?

VK Saraswat: You can name is Agni V plus or Agni VI, but certainly it is not Agni VI.

NDTV: It is not Agni VI but Agni V will have multiple warheads so we can have a single missile going and hitting several targets at the same time?

VK Saraswat:Yes it will be in that category.

NDTV: OK. Now, you also need a certain platform for your nuclear reactor. So what is happening on the Arihant project? How soon can we see criticality and commissioning?

VK Saraswat: Arihant development is at an advanced stage. Last year, we saw the culmination of the development trials of BO5, which was launched from the pontoon (landing stage) and it completed all its objectives. It is under production today. As far as the platform is concerned, it is also at an advanced stage today. I must say, in a couple of weeks, you will see that it will go into criticality and from there onwards the commission exercise will start.

NDTV: Criticality meaning, that the nuclear reactor which is on board INS Arihant will be started and the submarine itself will be powered by the Indian-made nuclear reactor. Is that what you are telling?

VK Saraswat: Yes, absolutely.

NDTV: How soon can we see that?

VK Saraswat: I think it should happen in the next 2-3 weeks.

NDTV: In the next 2-3 weeks, the nuclear reactor will be started and the nuclear chain reaction will start working in INS Arihant. So it will become like a self-propelled vehicle then?

VK Saraswat: See, criticality means the reactor gets into operation. And that is the most important for any nuclear system, whether it's a reactor or it's a power plant for a nuclear submarine. It's a very important event as far as the designers, the builders of these platforms are concerned.

NDTV: So what next? When can we see a full-fledged trial?

VK Saraswat: After that we get into the trial mode. We have an evolved programme in which many trials of this system will be done with the submarine moving into the right operational mode and then also trying out the weapons and equipment. There is a series of tasks that are required to be carried out.

NDTV: So you are happy with the INS Arihant as it stands?

VK Saraswat: We are extremely happy because it is a major technological breakthrough for the country. And as far as the indigenous capability is concerned I must say that India has reached one of the major milestones in the field of complex technology of nuclear powered submarines.

NDTV: There is a lot of indigenisation underway now. That everything should be made in India, that technology development should in India. Is the DRDO in a position to deliver without time delays and cost over-runs?

VK Saraswat: I think a shift in India's policy as far as acquisition of defence equipment is concerned -- from buy-global to buy-Indian as a preferential mode of procurement -- is very welcome and a good shift because it will give a major boost to the development and production of indigenous equipment and participation of the Indian industry in a big way. Obviously, as far as DRDO is concerned, it will have a major role to play.

DRDO, under this umbrella of buy-Indian will have tremendous opportunities for tying up with industries, tying up with academic institutions and with global players for delivering systems and products and equipment as desired by the armed forces. When we integrate with the industry, obviously it acts as force multiplication -- in terms of our capability and capacity. This will also reduce the time to develop things and also maybe control costs.

NDTV: So in effect you are saying that DRDO and India are ready for this huge push on indigenisation?

VK Saraswat: It's a beginning. I must say that it's a beginning because a shift from buy-global to buy-Indian requires the readiness of the industry to participate in this kind of venture. Obviously, there will be some time required for industries to gear up for these challenges. What is required is investment in the Indian industries, in the major areas of technologies, which would ensure that when DRDO goes to these industries, they are capable to absorb and produce in large numbers. Or tomorrow if they tie up with global players, because that is also a mode of operation, then they should be in a position to absorb that technology.

NDTV: But DRDO is known for delays...

VK Saraswat: No, DRDO will use this as an opportunity for cutting down delay. Also, by using the industry as our extended arm, we can control delays, can control the development of technologies, can control production and we will also be able to use our technology to augment the capability and capacity of the Indian industry.

NDTV: There is a lot of concern about incursions by the Chinese. We have certain technologies like Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs). Did we use them? Why did we not learn about these incursions? Is there something under DRDO, which can help India learn ahead of time or when an incursion is happening?

VK Saraswat: We have a number of technologies and we are using our UAVs, we are using our surveillance systems. In fact, we have kept a few UAVs in our labs in the Leh area and we are in a position to see what is happening in that system. In case of land incursions, we can use UAVs, we can use our radars, we can use our battlefield surveillance radars, and we can use our border security radars to find out what is happening. Incursions are not new, they have taken place earlier. But the way this incursion has taken place is certainly an alarm bell for us.

NDTV: You are deploying your technology for this current incursion also to learn more... to do surveillance on it?

VK Saraswat: Yes, we have our UAVs in that area.

NDTV: They are operational even as we speak?

VK Saraswat: We can utilise them today. We are not integrated with our armed forces today because they are experimental UAVs, which are for our application but, certainly, it can generate the required data for the purpose of surveillance activities.

NDTV: There is some concern that India's nuclear deterrence is more a political statement than actually a statement of fact. DRDO was involved in the Pokharan II blast in a very big way and you are developing many technologies. What do you have to say? Do we have the capability or is it all bluster?

VK Saraswat: I think all the statements are made out of ignorance. India has a very robust and a systematic deterrence capability, both in terms of weapon platforms as well as in terms of the required payloads. India has industry to support it, has the mechanism to control, mobilise and also use it whenever needed. Plus India has a very robust doctrine on these matters. It is a structured system, which controls the entire deterrence activity that starts from the highest body in the country to all the operational units, which are essential for exercising deterrence.

The notion that many analysts have are purely based upon their perception of things and comparison with other countries. I think every country has deterrence capability based upon its capacity, based upon evolving threats and also (takes into consideration) the ecosystem and the environment in which this deterrence has to work. So one need not compare whether country A has a better one (deterrence) or country B has a better one. It is what India needs. Do we have that? I can assure that India has the required deterrence capability in all forms. The triad is getting completed and I have no doubts that we will match with the best in the world.

NDTV: So DRDO, Department of Atomic Energy, Indian armed forces together can protect India if there is a nuclear threat to India?

VK Saraswat: I can assure you of that.

NDTV: A hundred percent?

VK Saraswat: One hundred percent!

NDTV: Average citizens need not worry? I can sleep well?

VK Saraswat: You can sleep well. The country can sleep well. Indian scientists, industries, armed forces and deterrence mechanisms are fully in place and we have nothing to fear.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 04 May 2013 20:23

^^^^ So many answers in one go..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 May 2013 20:28

Great to hear it from such a high level person. So mirv goal is official now.

member_26535 · Post by **member_26535** » 04 May 2013 20:38

So are we supposed to infer that there is no Surya or Agni VI ( 6000 Km + ) for now ?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 04 May 2013 21:23

srikven wrote:So are we supposed to infer that there is no Surya or Agni VI ( 6000 Km + ) for now ?

He did not deny an Agni 6, he did not mention it. In fact he described what Agni 6 is not. I think DRDO is putting a lid on Agni 6. You will soon hear news that Agni 6 was just hoax. And then one day ....

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 04 May 2013 21:36

^^^ Or it could also mean that Agni-VI is totally a difference class of missile.. (since Agni-VI nomenclature has been used in official documents)..

Also that it appears from the above interview that there will be two Agni-V test this year.. the acceleration could be the result of Chinese incursion..

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 04 May 2013 23:55

How are you supposed to MIRV an Agni IV? The circumference of the body seems like it can only support a unitary warhead.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 05 May 2013 01:10

Surya is smoke like Arihant was for long long time. Only few people in India might have actual knowledge about its existence. That is known as brahmastra in terms of strategic deterrence.

Chicoms know this that a country which can send probe to moon can easily have a missile which circles round the globe

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 May 2013 01:29

^^^ I have heard this many times. And probably should be one of the entries in the military assumptions thread. Missiles and rockets are different ball-game.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 May 2013 08:12

RoyG wrote:How are you supposed to MIRV an Agni IV? The circumference of the body seems like it can only support a unitary warhead.

I have most space launchers incl our own have a payload section of fatter diameter than the rocket stages. Maybe thats the idea...a small fat ham stage topped with 3 warheads, on top of the current two stages. I would have thought the agni3 would be more suitable though.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 05 May 2013 09:26

^^^^ What is little odd about the above interview is that VKS is quite forceful in refuting the MIRVed Agni-V to be the Agni-VI.
It could mean that Agni-VI is after all a full range ICBM..

Looks like Chinese action has liberated the govt to take the strategic actions..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 May 2013 09:51

I agree Agni VI is something totally different. And also Agni V MIRV are really guided all the way and not just ballistic RVs.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 05 May 2013 11:42

Now hear from horses mouth..

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 05 May 2013 12:27

^^^ I have heard this many times. And probably should be one of the entries in the military assumptions thread. Missiles and rockets are different ball-game.

Ok, could you care to elaborate the difference between a rocket and a missile then ?

To a laymen like me it is:
A) Guided vs non-guided

Carries explosives vs carries satellites/vehicles
C) Go up and come down (re-entry) again simply guided And structural changes vs goes up only.

This difference in theory is non trivial it is not big in terms of rocket engineering.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 May 2013 16:03

Imo agni6 == agni3sl.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 05 May 2013 19:02

The non-mention of K4 and K5 is also telling. Strictly restricting the narrative to B05 only, when there's a good chance that the underwater pontoon in BoB might be used for tests all the way to the end of 2013 (including Nirbhay re-test).

This jingo hopes Dr VK Saraswat gets an extension as DRDO chief.

amit · Post by **amit** » 05 May 2013 19:11

VKS' interview is very important because, hopefully, it will now settle the fizzle vs sizzle debate. Remember the original debate started because there appeared to be a divergence between DRDO and the nuclear establishment (Santhanam vs the rest). Now the current DRDO chief - who presumably has access to all the data - has not only stated that the deterrence is robust but also gently chided "analysts" for getting it wrong - any guesses who that is?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 May 2013 19:24

what do you expect him to say if it was a fizzle, especially with the recent display of belligerence from China?

amit · Post by **amit** » 05 May 2013 19:29

So are you saying VKS is lying? Remember it was not just a one off question but response to several questions. Of course you are entitled to think what you want. However if one were to take VKS' word against yours...

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 May 2013 19:51

amit wrote:So are you saying VKS is lying? Remember it was not just a one off question but response to several questions. Of course you are entitled to think what you want. However if one were to take VKS' word against yours...

You could be right. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

amit · Post by **amit** » 05 May 2013 20:25

Wait and see what? If and when the rose petals are on their way then it's already to late for the sizzle vs fizzle argument. Nope deterrence works on the basis of what your enemy thinks are your capabilities. This interview is important because it shows there is no further disconnect between AEC and DRDO.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 May 2013 20:44

The US is dead against any further increase in the range of the Agni-V ,as it would give India a true ICBM capability,the ability to reach the US if need be.Years ago it allegedly warned us about any missiles with a range beyond 5K km. Dr.Saraswat was strongly recommended for an extension by many top brains,including APJAK .Anti-desi forces will try and scuttle Agni V++

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 May 2013 21:29

Some time to kill:

Deterrence does not need to mean that it was a sizzle.

what do you expect him to say if it was a fizzle, especially with the recent display of belligerence from China?

A localized event should not have any impact on a larger picture. Just because a nation has deterrence does not mean that there will be perceptual, guaranteed peace along an active border.

The US is dead against any further increase in the range of the Agni-V ,as it would give India a true ICBM capability,the ability to reach the US if need be.Years ago it allegedly warned us about any missiles with a range beyond 5K km. Dr.Saraswat was strongly recommended for an extension by many top brains,including APJAK .Anti-desi forces will try and scuttle Agni V++

Any URl on this "allegedly" topic? TIA.

I find it very hard to believe that such a scenario still exists. In fact when India tested the V the SD said

Given repeated chances to criticize India for the test, Toner would only point to India's "very strong record on nonproliferation issues."

And here is an old article (2006) that seems to still stand (as far as I know).

The US - at this point in time - cannot afford to alienate India on such a topic. And clearly there is no threat to the US or Europe from India - outside of a Margolis.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 05 May 2013 22:48

India planning two more tests of long-range Agni-5 missile.

Seeking to enhance its long-range strike capabilities, India is planning to carry out two more tests of its over 5,000-km range Agni-5 ballistic missile this year after which it would be ready for operational deployment.

"We are planning to carry out two more tests of the Agni-5 missile and they are likely to be held this year after which it would be ready for induction into operational service," DRDO spokesperson Ravi Gupta said here.

India had joined the elite club of nations with such capability including the US, Russia and China when it carried out the first test of Agni-5 in April last year.

India is also planning to equip its most powerful missile with multiple warheads.

"We are working in this area. It will take time for us to develop but our work is on," DRDO chief Dr V K Saraswat said.

Known as Multiple Independently Targeted Re-entry Vehicle (MIRV), the missile is being developed to make it capable of carrying multiple warheads to destroy several targets in one go.

Asked about the plans in that regard, he had said, "Basic vehicle (missile) will remain the same. The first three stages will also remain the same and only the kill vehicle or the payload delivery system will need changes."

Terming it as a "force multiplier", the DRDO chief had said, "If I am able to do force multiplication with this... where I was using four missiles, I may use only one missile.

"So it becomes a force multiplier given the damage potential."

Comparing Agni-V missile to the best in the world, Saraswat had said that MIRV missiles are equipped with small on-board rocket motors and computerised inertial guidance system which manoeuvres warheads to several different trajectories.