India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 May 2013 07:36

^^
People

when I wrote a parody military scenario in Vivekji's scenario.

UPA govt and Indian Army deserves each other. Looks like Indian Army waits till the media gets the news and MMS puts his legs on the way so it's hands are tied.

I did read the point that IA doesn't patrol disputed eastern borders with China. Then what is the point of IA sitting 500 miles in India in eastern borders? Why didn't this come to forefront all these days, that too after all that 1962 fiasco? Brave IA leadership wokeup this morning and realized that it didnt patrol this border all these years?

I always thought IA would shoot anyone crossing the border first and then ask questions. In reality those 30-40 Chinese soldiers should be dead 20 days ago.

This is a sad joke on India. No wonder IA takes 20-30 years to select any weapon system. They can always claim that they don't weapons.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 May 2013 07:37

rohitvats wrote:
RamaY wrote:^^People when I wrote a parody military scenario in Vivekji's scenario.

UPA govt and Indian Army deserves each other. Looks like Indian Army waits till the media gets the news and MMS puts his legs on the way so it's hands are tied.

I did read the point that IA doesn't patrol disputed eastern borders with China. Then what is the point of IA sitting 500 miles in India in eastern borders? Why didn't this come to forefront all these days, that too after all that 1962 fiasco? Brave IA leadership wokeup this morning and realized that it didnt patrol this border all these years?

I always thought IA would shoot anyone crossing the border first and then ask questions. In reality those 30-40 Chinese soldiers should be dead 20 days ago.

This is a sad joke on India. No wonder IA takes 20-30 years to select any weapon system. They can always claim that they don't weapons.

You know what is the sad joke here?

Gas-bag like you who consider it easy to question the integrity and patriotism of the men in uniform at a fly. And pass such ridiculous comments. I know you consider yourself as some uber-patriotic who is the fountainhead of knowledge and has opinion on every aspect of India...and considers only his opinion and POV as the most 'patriotic'.

But you know what, you remind me of that famous quote about opinions and @ssholes...and tell you what, you stink to the high heavens.

You can take this 'holier than thou' attitude and stuff it where the sun don't shine.

It is real tragedy that men in uniform have to shed their sweat and blood protecting such thankless people as you...but then, that is what sets them apart from gasbags like you...gas-bags who hide behind the anonymity of internet, wallow in all the comforts of life and yet have the guts to question those who actually do more for this country in a day than gas-bags would in a lifetime.

So, while there are people out there doing what needs to be done, you can continue passing high sounding flatulence and pretend doing great service to motherland. What a joke!!!

mind your language my friend.

It is people like you who are supporting the bizzare logic given by both Military as well as political leadership.

Armed forces are not doing any greater service than the common man. The armed forces are given necessary resources, equipment and training to do what they do. They also have necessary legal protections to do what they do. The common citizens do not have all those responsibilities or rights.

The common citizen like me is paying for all the things that army asks for.

All we are asking in return is not to bring shame to the nation. The chinese came 19KM into Indian territory and sitting there for 20 days.

Shame on you to question my right to criticize the ineptitude and failure of military and political leadership.

member_23629 · Post by **member_23629** » 03 May 2013 07:40

Sushupti wrote:Looks like those 19 Kms of land is gone forever.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 53993.aspx

It is understood that the government may have advised the army not to comb the sector so that diplomatic efforts are not hampered. “As of now, there are no plans to launch patrols behind the Chinese positions. Patrolling right up to our perception of the line of actual control may be seen as provocative,” a source said.

This is the real gem. Your neighbour barges into your house and rapes your daughter, and you don't want to protest lest good relations with him are jeopardized! What is this khujli to maintain "good relations" -- the only objective should be to serve interests of the country. Instead, these jokers are running a popularity contest.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 May 2013 07:46

RamaY wrote:After all nothing grows in Aksai-Chin, Arunachal Pradesh is one of the poorest states, Assam has only 7 MPs and J&K is a drain on our national treasury and consciousness. Let us give them all those things. And if possible let us convince Pakis to drop a nuke on Gujarat for their communal behavior and after all they might have brought it with their Gujrat riots.

While we are at it, let us disband the Armed Forces. We dont need them and our police forces can do the stellar job they are doing guarding our borders.

RamaY garu,

We are a Dharmic society. We don't need to do anything as Dharma always triumphs in the end after so many tribulations and so much suffering. We have it in our Puranas and Itihaas. These teachings can't be wrong, can they ? Dharmic societies do not indulge in asuric activities (hey, even I am picking up this lingo which has become de-facto standard in BRf !)

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 May 2013 07:56

^we are in agreement sir.

[Added Later, for I fear people might miss the sarcasm]

Dharma always triumphs, there is no doubt about it. But individuals and nations can make a choice on how to use that dharma to their benefit. They can stand by dharma and kill the Asurics and live a happy life. Or they can chose to succumb to Asurics and live a pathetic life.

Both Asurcis and Dharmics die at the end of the day. The key thing is how they lived their lives.

Asurics already made their choice to fight against Dharma. It is the Other who need to make a choice, stand by dharma or live under Asurics.

That, in my humble opinion, is what makes an individual/nation what they are. Great or slaves.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 03 May 2013 07:58

Its a good thing that I did not join Army and commanding a missile regiment. I would have fired the missiles and sent a warning to the world that anyone encroaching on our soil will have a missile homing onto their a$$es. What good is a strategic weapon if you cannot even defend your country land?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 May 2013 08:01

^ I asked this question during paki-beheading crisis.

What happens if someone like me commanding say 50 soldiers comes across this Chinese tent and put them down and in the process lose 10 of my men.

Will they court martial me or would the Army leadership protect me by using their good offices in MoD or PMO or (I hate to be under) MHA?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 03 May 2013 08:10

RamaY wrote:^ I asked this question during paki-beheading crisis.

What happens if someone like me commanding say 50 soldiers comes across this Chinese tent and put them down and in the process lose 10 of my men.

Will they court martial me or would the Army leadership protect me by using their good offices in MoD or PMO or (I hate to be under) MHA?

Army may protect you but PMO will ask you for a dossier so that they can clean the yellow backsides..Will you still feel protected under Army leadership?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2013 08:13

RamaY wrote:^ I asked this question during paki-beheading crisis.

What happens if someone like me commanding say 50 soldiers comes across this Chinese tent and put them down and in the process lose 10 of my men.

Will they court martial me or would the Army leadership protect me by using their good offices in MoD or PMO or (I hate to be under) MHA?

You will be allowed to choose for yourself the names of 3 people who did that and achieved great heights

1. Field Marshal Ayub Khan
2. Gen Yahya Khan
3. Gen Pervez Musharraf

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 May 2013 08:19

we are soulmates Shivji. I guessed you would bring a Paki connection.

Do you mean, in general, the armed forces do not act when small incursions happen and instead escalate it to the highest levels of political leadership? Please note we are talking about anincursion by a small group and the enemy did not leave the place and go back or accept to put down their weapons.

Coming to Pakis, do you mean to say those three Pakis were acting on their side of the border and not on India side?

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 03 May 2013 08:39

If you are cornered and have a gun
1. a tiger corners you then you have no otion but to shoot because you are weaker and bound to lose if do not shoot
2. if a fanatic mad man corners you and come shooting at you then most likely you will choose to shoot
3. if a man of your equal corners you then most likely you will ask him why and to back off. If he doesnt then probably you will try to wrestle it out. if he still doesnt then may be threaten him with the gun, still no, then probably you will shoot reluctantly

Your first choice of reaction should vary scenario basis. How can you have one universal rule to every adversary?

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 03 May 2013 08:57

abhijitm wrote:If you are cornered and have a gun
1. a tiger corners you then you have no otion but to shoot because you are weaker and bound to lose if do not shoot
2. if a fanatic mad man corners you and come shooting at you then most likely you will choose to shoot
3. if a man of your equal corners you then most likely you will ask him why and to back off. If he doesnt then probably you will try to wrestle it out. if he still doesnt then may be threaten him with the gun, still no, then probably you will shoot reluctantly

Your first choice of reaction should vary scenario basis. How can you have one universal rule to every adversary?

The idea is to carry a big gun and demonstrate that you are willing to use the gun on whoever sneaks in and spoils my manicured lawn. I am not going to wait till I have a 15 feet high electric fence to keep out people. If someone wants to see my lawn(may or may not be equal to me) they can ring the bell and I will host their chai-biskoot in my lawn at my pleasure.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 03 May 2013 08:57

We have zero trust level on the western border and rightly so beacuse of the constant firing, torture, beheading of our soldiers etc. We know what we are dealing with. But on the eastern border the trust level is relatively much higher. There are no reported incidents of shelling, killing soldiers. However chinese with thier stupidity or tactically have lowered the trust level. I think we should first ask why and try to restore rather than pull it further down. Also before we escalate we should buy the support of the key international players in the background because you never know once this stars escalating till what end it will stop. I think GoI should quietly start preparing for a kargil like scenario. I am not sure if that is happening though.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 May 2013 09:00

It would be interesting to observe what commies are doing/saying on this issue.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 May 2013 09:04

abhijitm wrote:Stay calm. We are just ensuring no immediate escalation happens by us, as long as chinese do not escalate.

But why would the Chinese escalate any further? They have gobbled up 19km and 750 sq km of our landwith by just pitching tents. They are probably content for now, though they will soon do the same thing somewhere else.
One must commend the chinese on there commitment to non violent resolution if the border dispute. not a drop of blood shed, a completely bloodless invasion.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 03 May 2013 09:09

abhishek_sharma wrote:It would be interesting to observe what commies are doing/saying on this issue.

what do you expect from them?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 May 2013 09:17

Actually 'The Indian Express' has "Views from the Left" column every week. I don't see any mention of this problem in this week's column.

This is from CPI-M's website.

Tuesday, April 30, 2013
The Communist Party of India (Marxist) and the Communist Party of India have issued the following statement:

Resolve the Tensions with China
Through Negotiations

The CPI(M) and the CPI express their concern at the continued growth of tensions around the Line of Actual Control in Ladhak. This dispute must be resolved peacefully through negotiations urgently, safeguarding India’s interests. Both our Prime Minister and the Minister for External Affairs have expressed confidence of arriving at a solution through talks. India has in fact described the latest developments as a “localized affair”. Both India and China are giant neighbours and must resolve such disputes as mature nations do through negotiations and not through whipping up passions and tensions.

(Sitaram Yechury) (A.B. Bardhan)

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 03 May 2013 09:19

For comparison, here is an article in 'Organiser'.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 03 May 2013 10:52

The latest incident in Chinese and Pakistan border do raise some difficult questions on the morale of the IA. As some posters have pointed out above, it does seem bizarre that 40 odd soldiers track into the territory 19 kms and pitch tents and our army responds by escalating issue to the political masters. My understanding is that you can actually act first and inform later. Don't our commanders on ground have that much discretion? Or they noticed the incursion itself very late and to save themselves now are covering behind politicians for decision? My take is that Army is not very confident of taking on China right now. Why is Army not very confident? Because systemic rut has set in. Uninspiring leadership coupled with perceived lack in material and Chinese propaganda might be taking it's toll. I quote from General William Slim's book.

"Morale is a state of mind. It is a intangible force which will move men to give their last ounce to achieve something, without counting the cost to themselves; that makes them feel they are part of something greater than themselves. If they are to feel that, their morale must, if it is to endure - and essence of morale is such that it should endure - have certain foundations. These foundations are spiritual, intellectual and material and that is in that order. Spiritual first because only spiritual foundations can endure real strain. Intellectual second because men are swayed by reason as well as feeling. Material last - important, but last- because the very highest kind of morale are often when material conditions are lowest."

The good general then goes on to tabulate these foundations:

"Spiritual:
a) There must be a great and noble object (Bharat Maa)
b) It's achievement must be vital (Again Bharath Maa?)
c) The method of achievement must be active, aggressive (We lack this)
d) The man must feel that what he is and what he does matters directly to attainment of the objective. (Not sure of this either in current IA scenario)

Intellectual:
a) He must be convinced that the objective can be attained: that it is not out of reach. (Not sure IA feels that)
b) He must see, too, that the organisation to which he belongs and which is striving to attain the object is an efficient one. (Not comments thanks to MOD)
c) He must have confidence in his leader and know that whatever dangers and hardships he is called upon to suffer, his life will not be be lightly flung away. (A Jawan can be assured of that)

Material
a) The man must feel that he will get a fair deal from his leader and the army generally.
b) He must, as far as humanly possible, be given the best weapon and equipment for his task. (No comments again)
c) His living and working conditions must be as good as they can be. (Not sure again)

We can do all the talk but we must ensure that we don't push our Jawan to take up an impossible task when he himself is not sure of it. His life is precious, I might as well have him plan and may be take few mug shots from country men here and there (which is totally understandable) and live to fight another day when he is more confident, sure and his morale is intact. He will in the end have the last laugh.

partha · Post by **partha** » 03 May 2013 11:13

abhijitm wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:It would be interesting to observe what commies are doing/saying on this issue.
what do you expect from them?

Their position is well known. Years ago, I remember watching an interview of a commie leader (either Gurudas Dasgupta or D Raja) where he said India and China should resolve boundary issues with give and take. Bloody traitors when it comes to China.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 03 May 2013 11:30

There is a very nice term used for it, one that I learnt here: Snake oil salesman...

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 03 May 2013 12:32

Singha wrote:There is no intrusion at all since we moved the border back by 19km.

If i were the ia chief woulf resign in protest over such a directive but the era of such men are long gone

Let us mark may2 every year as national shame and ghulami day with a parade down janpath culminating in a dance infront of the pm residence.

Sushma is very good at dancing, let her do it

I agree, any IA chief with honour would have resigned in protest at being given a directive to stop patrolling Indian territory and allow enemies free reign there. I wonder what VKS would have done here.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 May 2013 12:37

China refuses to confirm Salman Kurshid's Trip on the 9th : ToI

For the second time in a week, China refused to confirm minister for external affairs Salman Khurshid's planned visit to Beijing on May 9 to discuss the border row. The Chinese foreign ministry also did not respond to a specific question about whether premier Li Keqiang would meet Khurshid.

"Both sides are in close communication on the border question. We will release information about Indian foreign minister's visit to China in due course," said foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying. She had made a similar "due course" statement about Khurshid's visit after the foreign minister had announced his plans a week ago.

Hua said China is "firmly opposed to any action that crosses the LAC (line of actual control)". The statement seemed to suggest she was referring to some construction work on the Indian side, which has been reportedly opposed by Beijing.

Replying to a question whether China regards Indian fortifications as border trespassing, Hua said both China and India have "reached consensus (on maintaining peace and tranquillity in border areas) and we are firmly opposed to any action that violates that consensus".

Very smart guys, these Chinese. They have sensed desperation among the Indians and are tightening the screws even more by linking the Indian FM's visit to China with progress in the LAC incident, progress favouring Chinese position that is. There will be more concession demanded for Le Keqing's visit to take place later on in May. A cornered India, keen on Li's visit, can only be expected to accede. After all, when we become a 10Tn $ economy, won't we be able to retrieve the situation ? Jingos do not understand Chankian moves.

Anyway, first, we thought that it was the usual 'perception difference'. Then, we explained it away as 'no-man's' land. As the Chinese stayed put and the two border flag meetings failed, our PM described as a 'localized event' that would soon be resolved. When the third flag meet also failed and the Chinese demands became shriller, our Army Chief was asked to present options to the CCS and the PM. After this presentation, GoI's position has become even softer as they realized the grave danger to peace in this region as well as Asia and beyond if they took even a small mis-step. Now, even normal patrolling has been called off in the Ladakh sector. All the time, our FM kept on chanting the mantra that we should not do anything to upset the upcoming visit of the Chinese Prime Minister. After all, he was making India his first stop after assuming office. What a prestige he has bestowed on our country in the light of the neo-Panch Sheel that the Chinese President Xi Jinping was kind enough to enunciate days before Li announced his travel plan. Now, our FM's trip is in jeopardy.

Great analysts like Ms. Alka Acharya of JNU had said that clarity will dawn on the Indian side when our FM went to China on May 9. Now, I do not know what would be the new source of enlightenment if our FM did not get the visa from the Chinese embassy and appointments from his counterpart even if he arrived in Beijing by some means.

IMHO, we must accede to these demands as the Chinese have the initiative at this point of time and we are in a difficult situation. We now realize that the April incursion by the PLA was after all not a simple 'perception' problem but a well planned out and laid out move. They might not have taken into account the financial crisis in Greece or the huge contracts from reliance to Huawei or Dong Feng Construction Company or the US pull out in 2014 or the upcoming elections in Pakistan and the return from exile of Musharraf etc. Why do we worry about all these things, splitting our hair over great and wise analysis that consumes pages after pages but with zilch action at the end ? That is because, we are great at tying ourselves into knot worrying about everything. We are also masters in finding excuses because we do not want to take any responsibilities and hence inaction is a better option for us.

Jai ho.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 03 May 2013 13:02

Singha wrote: If i were the ia chief would resign in protest over such a directive but the era of such men are long gone

This Gen. BS ? Resign?? Who didn't feel ashamed at using his relation with PM to retire Sh. V.K. Singh earlier by crooked methods. Honour and dignity means nothing for people like BS.

I know if Sh. V.K. Singh was still heading the army the outcome would have been different.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 03 May 2013 13:33

merlin wrote:
Sushma is very good at dancing, let her do it

I agree, any IA chief with honour would have resigned in protest at being given a directive to stop patrolling Indian territory and allow enemies free reign there. I wonder what VKS would have done here.

It is the bane of India that Victorian moralists are still ruling the roost.

angrez chale gaye lekin unke ghulam chod gaye.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 May 2013 13:59

The confusion within the Congress in dealing with the current crises is reportedly between the attitudes of the "Core committee" and the "Kaur Committee"!

Anyway,even if the "Cursed's" Beijing visit is to go ahead,he will be treated with utter contempt and choice snubs by his Chinese hosts. While he is in Beijing,we may see even more "tent people" settling in Indian territory.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 May 2013 14:00

RamaY wrote:^ I asked this question during paki-beheading crisis.

What happens if someone like me commanding say 50 soldiers comes across this Chinese tent and put them down and in the process lose 10 of my men.

Will they court martial me or would the Army leadership protect me by using their good offices in MoD or PMO or (I hate to be under) MHA?

In Army , either way your career will be finished unless you are dead. In that eventuality you will get posthumous Ashok Chakra/Kirti Chakra. But if you are in ITBP ( under MHA) then you will achieve great heights and may be posted as DG ITBP/CRPF/CISF/BSF or Director CBI /IB and become expert in border issues which you can write after you retirement and rake in moolah.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 May 2013 14:10

Singha wrote:Considering the level of threat on our land borders, a american style policy of border patrol forces like itbp and bsf under mha is definitely not workable. I think other than tsp frontier in j&k, the mha has blanket ownership of all other sectors?

The army must be handed over the border under control of defence ministry. Bsf and itbp types must be folded into army and reequipped to join the army in heavier fighting. There are sure to be decades of unrest on all our land borders looking at trends.

Let the home ministry take care of the home front in which they have a lot to do internal security.

From ITBP home page. Rest of frontiers except LOC is patrolled by BSF and AR under MHA. Not unusual , just like Pak Rangers on IB across tsp. China has Army guarding its border not some para forces.

ITBPF was raised on 24 Oct,1962.Presently ITBP is deployed on border guarding duties from Karakoram Pass in Ladakh to Jachep La in Arunachal Pradesh covering 3488 km of Indo-China Border and manning Border Outposts on altitudes raging from 9000’ to 18700’ in the Western,Middle and Eastern Sector of the Indo-China Border

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 May 2013 14:47

SSridhar wrote:China refuses to confirm Salman Kurshid's Trip on the 9th : ToI

Why should China agree to host India's FM, when Indians since weeks have been harassing peaceful Chinese soldiers living in tents on their side of the LAC?

We Indians should thank Mr. Salman Arshaf Khurshid that through his insistence to go to China for talks, he gave the Chinese a chance to reiterate their moral right to have their tents at DBO and to show their justified anger at Indian brinkmanship, and they could do so by refusing to confirm his trip!

May be somebody can give our FM some medal for his achievement!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2013 15:00

What is the patriotic BJP saying about this incursion? Are they not ahead of curve like BRFites demanding that a combative and rebellious army chief should resign. We of course know best (all of us, not just Sanku)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2013 16:21

RamaY wrote: Do you mean, in general, the armed forces do not act when small incursions happen and instead escalate it to the highest levels of political leadership? Please note we are talking about anincursion by a small group and the enemy did not leave the place and go back or accept to put down their weapons.

I am taking the risk of replying to a post from you to risk getting slapped or criticized for it. I take the risk knowingly and apologize to myself.

Please hold a gun in your hand and see how it feels. If you know what you can do with it, you should be able to identify situations in which the gun can be used. Maybe someone irritates you or angers you..

In theory you could shoot him. What might prevent you from shooting someone is fear of the consequences - ie that law which would catch up with you.

The meaning of this example is that when you give guns to young men (soldiers) between the ages of 18 and 35, you do not hand them guns with blanket orders to fire when they feel like it. They are trained in the same way you are trained to fear the law. And they have strict laws. They are trained not to fire the gun unless
a. They receive orders from a superior officer
or
b. They come under fire themselves.

That is why the occurrence of incidents of fratricide is low and you can trust soldiers to walk around in public or on patrol without shooting anyone. It is the same discipline that makes gun owners of BRF keep within the law. The difference between me and them is that if someone starts shooting at them, they will hold their ground and shoot back. I would not be able to do that, gun or no gun. That is why trained soldiers are there and not me.

As long as no one is shooting at them and as long as the soldier does not have standing orders to shoot if a particular threshold is crossed they will not simply fire. If you apply your mind, the reasons are obvious, but I cannot help you in this regard.

As regards dealing with tents, shooting first and asking questions later is clearly not the mandate given to the soldiers. War starts this way and that is the manner in which Ayub, Yahya and Musharraf started wars. By assuming that they could simply shoot someone and get away with it.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 May 2013 16:30

I would request ISRO to divert some small meteor to fall on the Chinese Tents! Plausible Deniability, Message from Gawd, wagerah ...! In any case I am hopeful that the Chinese would have to retreat as soon as the next Ice Age arrives! I don't mean the animation films!

And if all this doesn't work out, we still have Sunny Deol!

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 03 May 2013 16:57

Virupaksha wrote:
merlin wrote:
Sushma is very good at dancing, let her do it

I agree, any IA chief with honour would have resigned in protest at being given a directive to stop patrolling Indian territory and allow enemies free reign there. I wonder what VKS would have done here.
It is the bane of India that Victorian moralists are still ruling the roost.

angrez chale gaye lekin unke ghulam chod gaye.

This reminds me

Was going from near Laxmi Nagar and this chikna was teasing a municipality sweeper. Before anybody could say anything, the sweeper lady picked her municipality issue Jhaadu, the one with long danda and thick tillis and told the guy - Agar undar daal dungi to more ki tarah nachta nazar ayega.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 May 2013 18:48

^^ Shivji

I understand all that.

1. Army did not act effectively when few Pakis crossed the border, fired at them and took the head of their fellow soldier. It was allowed to be escalated to PM's level, knowing well how it would end.

2. ITBP did not act effectively when Chinese came 19km inside India and put a tent.

Somehow your post sounds to me like justification for IA's inaction. If your logic is right then all Pakistan/China have to do is to send their armies into India without resorting to fire at IA and put a camp. By the way, Bangladeshis are doing exactly that, in millions.

Looks like Army is more interested in saving their properties within India than protecting India. I hope Army men show this kind of attitude against enemy soldiers/citizens and not fellow Indians.

1. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/may/12army.htm
2. http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... rmy-jawans

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2013 18:53

RamaY wrote: Somehow your post sounds to me like justification for IA's inaction

This is why I apologized to myself in advance before replying to your post. You ask a question and pick on me for replying. I think that is a sneaky thing to do but I should not have responded knowing that this is your wont. I will let you sort out your ignorance by yourself without putting myself in harm's way. However there are other who may read the post and have different opinions so the reply will stay as it is.

My fault for answering. I will go back to my usual policy about your posts. I am sorry I took any notice of what you asked. This is the second time I have hurt myself in this manner. Hopefully this will be the last.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 May 2013 19:01

^ You yourself do that to people all the time, often thru intentional piskology. Beyond that I leave it to your wisdom.

It is one thing to respect every institution in India, be it GoI or IA or the Municipality cleaners association and it is a different thing to demand that they should be respected without question because some how one is greater patriot than the other.

When people do their jobs there will be less to feel ashamed and make people forgive for smaller transgressions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2013 19:07

The question is, why is the BJP which is such a nationalistic party with proven credentials in handling enemies with firmness not asking for China to be attacked and the immediate recapture of 750 sq km of our territory - or at least chiding the army chief for not resigning in disgust at the cowardliness of our actions. The BJP is merely bleating that Salman Khurshid's trip to China must be cancelled. Why have our tigers become kittens? Are we on BRF the only brave and sensible ones left?

*;;O[[\\ ..sorry - I banged the keyboard so hard that it broke and I had to replace it. I could knock out 5 tents with my left hand. The Chinese would then learn a lesson and never dare to enter again.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 May 2013 19:16

http://www.firstpost.com/india/chinese- ... 47715.html

New Delhi: BJP MPs from both Houses of Parliament will meet President Pranab Mukherjee tomorrow in the Rashtrapati Bhavan to demand appropriate action against Chinese incursion in the Ladakh region.

All BJP MPs from Lok Sabha and Rajya Sabha have been asked by the party top brass to be a part of the delegation that will meet Mukherjee in afternoon. BJP Parliamentary Party Chief L K Advani, Leader of the
Opposition in Lok Sabha Sushma Swaraj, her Rajya Sabha counterpart Arun Jaitley and party president Rajnath Singh will lead the delegation.

China has not moved from the position at Daulat Beg Oldi. AFP.
The main opposition party has been demanding tough action against Chinese incursion and even cautioned that this could escalate into a “Kargil-like” situation. Pakistani incursions into Indian territory in Kargil in 1999 had resulted in a war between the two neighbours.

BJP had discussed Chinese incursions in its Parliamentary Party meeting on April 30. It had asked the government to come clear on the kind of equipment and weapons being used by the Indian forces to face the Chinese threat.

BJP MPs Prakash Javadekar and Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi, who are part of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence, had written to the panel chairperson Raj Babbar demanding that defence officials posted at the Ladakh border and other senior personnel be called to get detailed reports from the ground.

The Committee’s meeting was cancelled and the issue could not be taken up. In the latest instance in Ladakh region, Chinese troops have reportedly entered 19 km inside the Indian territory.

PTI

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 May 2013 19:19

Hmm... Now I understand everything... I got enlightenment.... AoA onleee

GoI is not acting on Chinese incursion ONLY because BJP is silent. If BJP were to ask for army chief's resignation and military action against Chinese aggression it would have been done 15 years ago. No wonder it is BJP's lack of patriotism that lost Aksai-chin and 1962 war and everything else. It is BJP's lack of patriotism that is making INC do all the scams and vote-bank politics.

Instead of understanding this simple logic, those BJP idiots were asking for the resignation of MMS, PC, AKA, Shinde, Sunil Kumar, Shivraj Patil, Kapil Sibal, termite queen Sonia, Pappu Rahul and the national Idiot Katju.

It is all BJP's fault.

P.S: In my defense, I said THIS ~7 months ago. Eye hope my party-atrisom is safe on BR.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 May 2013 19:25

Why is there no war?

a. We are scared
b. We have already lost
c. Cowardly Congress government