Transport Aircraft for IAF

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NRao
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 19 Mar 2013 06:12

That joystick instead of wheel in the center looks out of place.


It should be because of the decision to make it common with the F-18 (Open Systems Architecture - A Boeing Enterprise Perspective :: dated)


They should have gone for a side-stick like Airbus if they didn't want the wheel.


Left side has the stick on the left and the right side on the right. But then the C-17 is much older than the Airbus plane. Even then I doubt that they would have modified it just for the C-17.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 19 Mar 2013 15:58

Aircraft designers/manufacturers used different philosophy for control , Airbus prefers Side Stick control for its type, Boeing prefers to stick with Yoke on this civil airlines even on latest Dreamliners....Similarly Tupolev/Illushin prefers Yoke type control for civil/defence aircraft while Sukhoi has opted for side stick controllers for civil aircraft.

State Testing of IL-476 has started , gives a better view of the cockpit on first prototype.

http://youtu.be/ppalwt6x6J4

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 19 Mar 2013 16:18

Austin wrote:State Testing of IL-476 has started , gives a better view of the cockpit on first prototype.

http://youtu.be/ppalwt6x6J4


One of the cons for the IL-476 is the number of people it needs (load masters?). The interior of the rear in the video explains why. Besides that since I have not seen what support equipment it has on the ground, that too could need catch up with the C-17.

The only reason I could see a IL-476 in IAF inventory is if the IAF sees a need for a 50 ton transport. Since I do not see the IL-476 in the same class as the C-17, even a follow on order for the C-17 could still mean that the IAF could get a few IL-476. But, I do not see the IL-476 competing with the C-17, that is a battle that the IL-476 has already lost IMVVHO. Granted the IL-476 has a ways to go (2018ish) to show what all it can do.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 23 Mar 2013 16:07

UEC intends to deliver 10 PS-90A-76 engines to India

United Engine Corporation (UEC) plans to deliver 10 PS-90A-76 engines to India. The engines are intended for AWACS aircraft derived from Il-76TD, RIA Novosti reports with reference to the official representative of UEC, Anastasiya Denisova.

"The contract has not been signed yet; the prices and term of execution of this contract are being discussed", — she said.

Denisova reminded that UEC has already delivered 15 PS-90A-76 engines to India (12 engines have been delivered as components of Il-76TD aircraft and three more – as spare ones) for upgrading the aircraft. Russia has also delivered a score of Il-76 aircraft to India, including 17 Il-76МD, 6 Il-78 and three А-50s (AWACS aircraft derived from Il-76).

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby VinodTK » 19 Apr 2013 06:42

US-made India's 1st C-17 aircraft gets shape; to arrive in 2013
The first of India's ten ordered Boeing heavy-lift military transport aircraft has got its shape at an exclusive "major join" ceremony here attended by the top Indian diplomat of the region and IAF officials.

The global aerospace giant Boeing integrated the forward, center and aft (rear) fuselages and the wing assembly of India's first C-17 Globemaster during the airlifter's "major join" ceremony here yesterday.

Officials from the Indian embassy in San Francisco and Indian Air Force drove ceremonial rivets into the aircraft, a key milestone in the programme.

India's Consul General in San Fransico N Parthasarathi called the ceremony as "practically riveting the Indo-US relations".

"This momentous occasion, where we see India's first C-17 take shape, further strengthens our growing relationship.
:
:
:

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby vic » 19 Apr 2013 14:36

More like driving symbolic nails in the coffin of Indian economy, back of Indian tax payer and into indigenous infrastructure.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby MN Kumar » 19 Apr 2013 15:35

VinodTK wrote:US-made India's 1st C-17 aircraft gets shape; to arrive in 2013
The first of India's ten ordered Boeing heavy-lift military transport aircraft has got its shape at an exclusive "major join" ceremony here attended by the top Indian diplomat of the region and IAF officials.

The global aerospace giant Boeing integrated the forward, center and aft (rear) fuselages and the wing assembly of India's first C-17 Globemaster during the airlifter's "major join" ceremony here yesterday.

Officials from the Indian embassy in San Francisco and Indian Air Force drove ceremonial rivets into the aircraft, a key milestone in the programme.

India's Consul General in San Fransico N Parthasarathi called the ceremony as "practically riveting the Indo-US relations".

"This momentous occasion, where we see India's first C-17 take shape, further strengthens our growing relationship.
:
:
:


Guess thats an old news item. Boeing delivered IAF's first C17 to the US Air Force for flight testing in Jan.
Boeing Delivers Indian Air Force's 1st C-17 to Flight Test
Program on schedule to deliver 5 airlifters in 2013 and 5 in 2014
LONG BEACH, Calif., January 23, 2013 - Boeing [NYSE: BA] on Jan. 22 delivered -- on schedule -- the first of 10 C-17 Globemaster III airlifters for the Indian Air Force (IAF). India's first C-17 will now enter a U.S. Air Force flight test program at Edwards Air Force Base in Palmdale, Calif. Boeing is on track to deliver four more C-17s to the IAF this year and five in 2014.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 19 Apr 2013 16:13

The first one should be in India in June.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby P Chitkara » 19 Apr 2013 16:26

The C17 cockpit bears a good degree of resemblance to cockpit of B737 series, which makes sense.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Katare » 22 Apr 2013 01:09

MN Kumar wrote:quote="VinodTK"]US-made India's 1st C-17 aircraft gets shape; to arrive in 2013
The first of India's ten ordered Boeing heavy-lift military transport aircraft has got its shape at an exclusive "major join" ceremony here attended by the top Indian diplomat of the region and IAF officials.

The global aerospace giant Boeing integrated the forward, center and aft (rear) fuselages and the wing assembly of India's first C-17 Globemaster during the airlifter's "major join" ceremony here yesterday.

Officials from the Indian embassy in San Francisco and Indian Air Force drove ceremonial rivets into the aircraft, a key milestone in the programme.

India's Consul General in San Fransico N Parthasarathi called the ceremony as "practically riveting the Indo-US relations".

"This momentous occasion, where we see India's first C-17 take shape, further strengthens our growing relationship.
:
:
:
quote]

Guess thats an old news item. Boeing delivered IAF's first C17 to the US Air Force for flight testing in Jan.
Boeing Delivers Indian Air Force's 1st C-17 to Flight Test
Program on schedule to deliver 5 airlifters in 2013 and 5 in 2014
LONG BEACH, Calif., January 23, 2013 - Boeing [NYSE: BA] on Jan. 22 delivered -- on schedule -- the first of 10 C-17 Globemaster III airlifters for the Indian Air Force (IAF). India's first C-17 will now enter a U.S. Air Force flight test program at Edwards Air Force Base in Palmdale, Calif. Boeing is on track to deliver four more C-17s to the IAF this year and five in 2014.


This new capacity combined with C130s and residual Il76 is going to make strategic impact in Indian capabilities to fight a 2 front war.

Lets order 12 more C130s and 10 more C17s pronto! Will order a 2 dozen Il476 when it is ready, just to keep Sanku and Philip quite.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby vishvak » 22 Apr 2013 01:30

Why not order IL476 with requirements MkI already, and think of more fanCy once those that are ordered at least arrive.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Katare » 22 Apr 2013 04:12

Can't order something that does not exist. We learned our lessons from MKI experience.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby tushar_m » 22 Apr 2013 09:04

Needs & requirements of IAF is increasing & it will be at its peek near 2020 when maybe we have an option for IL476 , IAF will definitely get its hands on number of air-lifters then but today its in making (IL476) until its complete & performing we can't risk it.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 01 May 2013 09:52


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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 01 May 2013 10:42

Cheen have converted their non delivered order of il76md around 35 units to the il476. They have no choice since c17 is not table for them and y20 is many years away from ioc.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 01 May 2013 11:17

They are reportedly using D-30 Engine for Y-20 prototypes so expect fuel consumption to be worse then PS-90 engine.

Check this http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 542650.xml

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 01 May 2013 12:08

yes but unlike us, they will build and field it in numbers whatever be the cons, its their start in the heavy airlifter game.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Philip » 02 May 2013 13:07

China has developed its own home-designed amphibian,with 4 t-props,a very creditable effort,while we still have to induct a single amphibian for ASW,MRP,SAR,fire-fighting whatever.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 02 May 2013 13:22

they have mastered the art of getting something in service and then looking to buy, develop or steal whatever is needed to plug the gaps. in some cases like J8 and FBC1 they serve their entire lifespans with stuff like engines the IAF would scoff at (RR Spey for FBC1). can you imagine IAF accepting a twin engine with RR Spey in 2000.

but by hook or crook they have built footprint from C17 size down to basic stage1 trainer.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby vic » 02 May 2013 17:04

Singha wrote:but by hook or crook they have built footprint from C17 size down to basic stage1 trainer.


We have also built a foot print of imports, corruption and bribes from C-17 down to 9mm SMGs. We Win! :evil:

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 06 May 2013 10:00

link

Ilyushin has lobbied the Russian government to resume the Il-112 project. Russia has now offered the aircraft to India as a 50-50 joint development, in similar fashion to the BrahMos missile and the medium tactical airlifter projects that are already under way. While awaiting a final decision from the government level, the Russian defense ministry has indicated an intention to continue buying the An-140 to meet the pressing need for lightweight tactical airlifters.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby member_20453 » 06 May 2013 13:47

There is no need of ordering the IL-476 just to keep Sanku and Philip quiet, better we just order another 20 to 30 C-17s and a total fleet of 40 C-17s & 50 C-130Js would be an ideal number. With the systematic raising of more airborne battalions, we should be able to deploy them quickly asap. Also the C-17 offer a lot of other benefits, it should allow for rapid deployment of Pinaka, Nirbhay, Brahmos, Agni 1 perhaps 2, M-777 howitzers and Prahaar launchers in short notice as well.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Singha » 06 May 2013 13:56

can Rudra's and LCH with the rotors removed be wheeled inside the C17 and flown to Leh and Thoise I wonder.
might work out cheaper than having them fly up 1500km from the HAL factory to forward regions even on the delivery trip.

seems even the larger Apache and Blackhawk helis are routinely moved around using C17..two helis could fit inside with no special mods
http://www.afcent.af.mil/shared/media/p ... 6g-001.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/imag ... gnhj9EOHt_

this is something the IL476 cannot do due to size restrictions.

so something like 6 C17 sorties could move a squadron of 12 gunships across the country (with their ground crew) and maybe another 2 sorties to move extra engines, spares and missiles/ammo. 4 units of of C17 could fly two round trips in a day and accomplish this from dawn to dusk from say nasik to leh...with time off for lunch.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby abhik » 06 May 2013 20:15

What ever happened to the NAL Regional Transport Aircraft? Deep sleep mode or shelved?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 06 May 2013 20:51

Austin wrote:link

Ilyushin has lobbied the Russian government to resume the Il-112 project. Russia has now offered the aircraft to India as a 50-50 joint development, in similar fashion to the BrahMos missile and the medium tactical airlifter projects that are already under way. While awaiting a final decision from the government level, the Russian defense ministry has indicated an intention to continue buying the An-140 to meet the pressing need for lightweight tactical airlifters.

I had missed this development. I wonder why GoI/IAF is sleeping on this. Give this plane to the private sector to build as the Avro/An-32 replacements. Looks like the entire design is completed. Plus I think there will be similarities with the IL-214 aka MTA. So a lot of the risk is mitigated. The assignment is to mate the plane with the 4000 shp engine and build a cabin for troop transport. If they choose the AE 2100 engine, there will be commonality with the C-130J, Shinmawa.

Besides being a transport plane, it can be changed into a very good 50-70 seater turbo-prop RTA, which is in high demand. I hope somebody wakes up to this opportunity of building an Embraer/ATR in India.

P.S.
1. There is already a civilian variant IL-114.
2. And we get a desi platform for our future AEW&C.
3. Sorry boys, IAF is considering IL-114 as one of the contenders for the medium lift aircraft. The other contenders are obviously C-27J, C-295 and the An-148 An-140. But I don't understand the IAF RFP, the 800 kmph requirement can only be met by the jet powered planes (which none of the competitors are). Personally I hope that they chose the IL-112/IL-114 and set up an assembly line in India, like in the case of Brahmos. None of the other players will allow that.
Last edited by Indranil on 06 May 2013 22:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 06 May 2013 22:22

Wiki claims some company in India has ordered 18 AN-148s. Civilian I assume.

Just a gut feel, but seems to me that AN > IL in today's market.

The IL-476, outside of stat sheet fillers, does not give me the warm and fuzzy feeling. The cockpit seems outright out dated. Dunno.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 06 May 2013 22:37

^^^ That was in 2010, before the issuance of this RFP. UAC signs deals for 18 An-148 aircraft.

Russian aircraft manufacturer United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) has signed deals with three domestic non-scheduled airlines for supply of 18 aircraft in its An-148 series, including 10 cargo carriers, during the on-going India Aviation 2010 meet.

It has signed deals for supply of eight passenger aircraft, with an option for another eleven. “While we are looking to deliver the passenger aircraft from the first quarter of 2011, delivery of the cargo series will begin from the first quarter of 2012, as we need to complete certain certification process,” Mr Yuri Grudinin, UAC Director, told media persons at the India Aviation 2010 meet here on Friday.


It seems they have been talking to Tata and HAL about some JVs, but I don't know for which planes.

P.S. There seems to be 3 variants of the IL-112:
1. IL-114 for civilian usage (in production)
2. IL-112V or 112B (RuAF preferred LTA, but currently the project is suspended owing to engine requirements)
The aircraft is offered in military IL-112V / IL-112B formats and an 11-seat corporate shuttle variants. The military version features a loading ramp. The IL-112V can carry a 6t-7t payload of military cargoes, equipment and personnel. In May 2003, the Russian Air Force selected the IL-112V as its next-generation airlifter. The Russian Air Force requires over 70 aircraft of this type. The IL-112V will replace the 21t Antonov An-24 and the 24t An-26 aircraft currently in service with Russia.


3. IL-112T (for troop transport similar to the Avro)
The IL-112T design is based on the IL-114 aircraft. The IL-112T retains cross section of the IL-114. The fuselage length was reduced by 6.2m. The increased height and width of cabin results large cargo space for the storage of goods. The aircraft is powered by Klimov TV7-117 turboprops. Designed by traditional hi-plane scheme, its wings are equipped with mechanical flaps.

The aircraft is not suitable for short take-off and landing missions. The cargo hatch with thrust ramp on the rear side allows the loading and unloading operations. The IL-112T is fitted with integrated airborne equipment. It has been designed to meet the ICAO noise and emissions standards.
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 06 May 2013 22:48

The talk was for An-148 to be built in India for regional airline transport market for low cost carrier and for operating in remote airfield with minimum infra , since then they have also certified a larger 100 seater An-158 but the talk was not for military applications but civilian ones.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 06 May 2013 23:04

hmmm. MRO or production?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 06 May 2013 23:29

The were looking for lic production either with pvt or government player which ever worked , I think none worked so far.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 07 May 2013 01:06

Oh! that is very interesting.

Can you point me to something that I can read and learn more about it. Ukraine is an interesting country. They will sell to whoever pays, which I find as better and fair than the moral-charade put up by US/Israel/France/Russia.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 07 May 2013 01:21

India’s Light Transport Competition: Follow Avros to Exit

Antonov’s AN-148 regional passenger and cargo plane is the strongest “outside” contender. It’s high wing twin-jet design is unique in this field, and it can carry a mix of passengers and up to 9 tonnes of cargo. The plane has a number of other customers around the world, including countries with comparable climate variations and high altitude terrain. Indian airlines have reportedly ordered 18 of them, and there has been some talk of setting up some production facilities in country .

On the flip side, the AN-148 has been criticized for high operating costs, and the Russian carrier Rossiya has cited operating efficiency below its Boeing 737s . Those costs were reportedly a big reason why Aeroflot declined to expand its order, though the Russian carrier also cited reliability issues . Iran is the type’s largest customer, with over half of the estimated 250 planes in global service.

Then there’s Ilyushin’s IL-114 . It’s used as a regional airliner in Uzbekistan, whose 14-plane order made them the IL-114′s only customer. Cargo capacity lists as 6.5 tonnes, and production has ended . That isn’t a hugely appealing combination, even if the manufacturer promised to move all future production to India.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 07 May 2013 02:01

^^^ Oh thank you. I think the author is confused between the 114 and the 112.

More on the 148 production at India from a link in the above article. If this materializes, I don't know what would happen to the NCAD program. Personally, I prefer Tata opening up a 148/158/178 line. I will bet that the planes will role out before MTA and NCAD.

Back to the light weight category, I would prefer the IL-112, An-140 or SAAB 2000 lines being set up in India under Tata. I am doing some back of the envelop calculations here.

We will need An-32 replacements from early 2027. They would need around 2 years to sign the contract. The first 16 planes would start arriving 3 years from then. The first planes from the Indian assembly lines cannot be expected before 2 more years. They would need around 3-4 years to deliver the remaining of the 40 planes. This brings us to 2023-2024. At this point they would like to be building 15-20 planes per annum. So, they would need orders for about 60-80 more planes to bridge the gap between 2023-2027. After that, they would be building the planes to replace the 105-125 odd An-32s. This would bring the total orders to 200-250 planes (which they are looking for).

So the question arises. Can't the IAF and MoD find buyers for 60-80 more planes? Probably, choose a plane which also has a civilian counterpart and force AI to buy these planes. Or is it that difficult for MoD to allow IAF to buy 60-80 planes just for the sake of building this assembly line in India! It is a matter of 1 billion dollars. And For India, imagine seeding a Bombardier/Embraer/ATR in India.

P.S. Imagine SAAB 2000 lines are moved to India and PAF wants spares for their Erieyes. :wink:
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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 07 May 2013 02:21

Alternatively, if IL-112 is chosen, pay the Russians to forego production in Russia. They have anyways frozen the project which will not be revived without funds from India. So bargain a little. Make them a sweet deal. Their design costs would be amortized by the MoD funds. A MRO can be set up in Russia for these planes. They would get a plane of choice for themselves, designed and maintained by them, at Indian manufacturing costs which are probably further subsidized by the MoDs added sugar.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Sancho » 07 May 2013 04:33

Can anybody tell me if we have to take the same engine for our MTAs, that Russia will choose or is there a possibility to take a western engine?
Would it be possible to take the same airframe like the Russians, but include western avionics and engines for exports reasons and build them in India?
Are the any known informations about what India can do and can't to as a partner? Since this is not a top secret 5th gen fighter with Russian high techs, there could be more benefits for us by customizing the aircraft not only for our needs, but also with exports in mind. An MTA with Russian engines, will have close to no chances in Europe, or the west in general, but mainly in Asian or African countries. A chance for India?

NAL's RTA developments seems to strugle, which again puts the MTA on the line, since it was aimed on military transports just like civil passenger and transport use:

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/in_mta1_001.jpg


So why not convert MTA to RTA and include NAL? Same base platform => cheaper costs, more spares available and could be even customised with jet and prop engines if necessary.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby NRao » 07 May 2013 06:49

Anything is possible provided one has the funds (and the need). A western engine was considered and rejected - forget for what reason.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Austin » 07 May 2013 09:48

indranilroy wrote:Oh! that is very interesting.

Can you point me to something that I can read and learn more about it. Ukraine is an interesting country. They will sell to whoever pays, which I find as better and fair than the moral-charade put up by US/Israel/France/Russia.


You can find many write up on An-148 program here and An-158 here

Iran already lic produces Turboprop An-140 under lic from Ukraine under name IRAN-140 and even converted them to MPA role besides 50 + seater civil transport role.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby pragnya » 07 May 2013 22:10

indranilroy wrote:Oh! that is very interesting.

Can you point me to something that I can read and learn more about it. Ukraine is an interesting country. They will sell to whoever pays, which I find as better and fair than the moral-charade put up by US/Israel/France/Russia.


Ukraine offers to co-develop transport aircraft with India

it is 2010 news. looks things have not moved since.

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 08 May 2013 02:19

^^^ Thank you.

I literally hate this permit-license-quota-raj. Why does the govt. always have to "consider the proposal" first?

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Re: Transport Aircraft for IAF

Postby Indranil » 08 May 2013 21:29

Crosspost from the military aviation thread:

wig wrote:IAF to upgrade vintage Avro aircraft
...
IAF sources said the upgradation suite envisioned for the Avro includes incorporating a radar, installing an auto-pilot system and a new communication system, besides better avionics. Studies have shown that the aircraft still retains some residual technical life and their life extension is feasible.
...
Though the initial batches of Avro aircraft, also known as HS-748, were initially procured from the United Kingdom and later these were licence-produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the upgrade will be undertaken by a private vendor, sources said.
...
The IAF also plans to replace the existing Avro fleet and is seeking 56 transport aircraft in this category at an estimated price of $ three billion. The proposed aircraft would have a payload capacity of 6-8 tonnes.
...


This is a very smart move. I think the IAF is thinking like me 8). For making it economically viable they are going for a common replacement of Avros and the An-32s. But they are smarter even.
1. Upgrading the Avros for now allows an uninterrupted assembly line producing 145-180 planes from 2020-2021 onwards.
2. In case of delays, they have a padding of 2-3 years.
4. Upgrading the Avros first and then building the complete plane is an easier learning curve.

Here is the layman timeline in my head.
1. Finalize the private agency and extent of upgrades by 2014. Upgrade the aircrafts by 2017.
2. Identify a common plane to replace the Avros and An-32s (combined order of around 200 aircrafts) by 2017.
3. First 16 aircrafts come from the OEM by 2020. Aircrafts start rolling off the Indian assembly line by 2020
5. Indian made aircrafts start active duty from 2021 replacing the Avros first and then the An-32s starting 2025.


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