Indian Naval Discussion

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Indranil »


It is great to hear from Chacko sahab. Wonder why he doesn't post here anymore!

I agree with him. It will be a lungi dance moment for me if 6 follow on orders for Scorpene is given to MDL, and Project 75I is made an indigenous effort at L&T with the help of foreign consultancy. If India can fund them together, it will be many birds with one stone.
ramana
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by ramana »

Didnt the IN early on say that three ships of class are an economically viable unit?
So how do they plan to have a 65k tonne ship when the early version is not even complete. Or is that a follow on boat?
Will
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Will »

maz wrote:Could I trouble our Dabolim based members to go to the naval aviation museum and take pics of any new updates like squadron histories and new photos, etc and kindly post them or email them to me so I can do a timeline feature on the 60 years of IN naval aviation?

Please contact me if you would like to help out.

Thanks in advance.
Can't help you Maz. Am not in Goa at the moment .
KrishnaK
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by KrishnaK »

Would it be possible to procure the Siemens Fuel Cell for the Project 75I. That would decouple any risks in the DRDO AIP development from that of the Project 75I. Both would be formidable projects on their own.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by John »

Philip wrote:There is no bar to fitting Brahmos onto Bears.limited upgrade of the Bears would extend their service life.There was some news some time ago that a The missile is within the MTCR ,In fact there was a report some time ago that the plan to fit them onto IL-38s was shelved due to some technical problem.Plus ,Nirbhay is an Indian developed missile and no one can stop us from it being carried on any platform of ours.
As per the agreement we signed with Russia couple years back, it would require Russian approval/consent for any changes that we intend to do on weapons' platform. Also in order for Bears to carry standoff weapons they would need to be upgraded to MN standard (someone can correct me on this) which would once again require Russian assistance. Brahmos on Il-38 is unlikely.

Never fall for PR Brochures, remember how they showed Su-30 carrying 3 Brahmos and Mig-29 carrying 1 but reality is even Flanker requires significant structural hardening to carry even 1.


IMO i don't see need for air launched Brahmos as it stands, Harpoon should fill that air launched AShM role for the time being. While we can work on Nirbhay anti ship variant and mini air launched Brahmos.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Harpoon is passe.All the major powers are trying to emulate BMos,why there was even a recent hypersonic test in the US.The greater the range of the stand-off missile and its speed,thrice that of a subsonic equivalent,the lethality increases dramatically.

Here is an old surveillance system, back in vogue.We already have Israeli aerostats in service, usign them at sea yet to be done.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnava ... [quote]The First Aerostat Carrier

May 6, 2013: The U.S. Navy has adapted surveillance balloons (aerostats) to operate from the rear deck of a high-speed transport vessel. This increases the ability to detect small drug smuggling boats from 8 kilometers to 80 kilometers and provides the ability to spot the smugglers in all weather, day or night. This is a big deal for naval reformers advocating the return of untethered blimps. After over half a century of effort, blimps (helium filled lighter-than-air aircraft, tethered or not) have returned to favor on the battlefield. The last time blimps were widely used was World War II, when hundreds roamed coastal waters looking for enemy warships (mainly German submarines), and thousands of tethered ones served to prevent low altitude bombing attacks. The U.S. continued to use blimps for maritime patrol until the early 1960s, and advocates have been trying to get blimps back into action ever since. Now, combat commanders who have used them can't get enough tethered blimps. The key difference here is the tether, which allows the “blimps” to stay in the air for weeks at a time because they don’t run out of fuel and the “crew” is on the ground. It’s the same for aerostats at sea, where sudden changes in weather have destroyed many blimps, often with no survivors.

The high-speed ship that has been turned into an “aerostat carrier” is the USS Swift (HSV 2), a twin hulled catamaran. This vessel is 103 meters (320 feet) long and displaces 1,900 tons. It can carry up to 800 tons of cargo and has airline style seating for 300 troops, although up to 600 can be carried. The cargo can include vehicles of up to 70 tons each, including M-1 tanks. Vehicles are driven on and off. There is a trade-off between tonnage carried and speed and range. The twin hull design is also slowed down quite a bit in rough seas. This is not the kind of ship you can use much in the north Atlantic or Pacific. But in the Caribbean or off the west coast of Central America the Swift can stay out for a long time and, barring nasty weather, keep the aerostat in action 24/7.

The U.S. Army has used over a hundred aerostats in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. Originally designed to operate with vidcams, in 2010 the army added the AN/ZPY-1 Starlite lightweight radar. The Starlite radar weighs 29.5 kg (65 pounds), occupies 34 cc (1.2 cubic feet), uses 750 watts of power, and costs about $2.3 million each. The Starlite was originally designed for use in the army's 1.5 ton MQ-1C Sky Warrior UAV. Starlite can deliver photo quality black and white radar images of what is down there, in any weather. The army has developed software that enables the Starlite images to be transmitted to video terminals and automatically appear on electronic versions of standard maps. Starlite is used in combination with vidcams and heat sensors (infrared or thermal) making it possible to see anything on the water within 80 kilometers of the aerostat equipped ship no matter the weather.

The army aerostats usually float at about 320 meters (a thousand feet) up, tethered by a cable that provides power and communications to the radar and day/night vidcams. The navy uses a 640 meter (2,000 foot) cable because the aerostat tends to trail behind the slow moving ship. During land operations the aerostats could stay up for 30 days at a time but if the enemy was shooting at them some of them came down every few days to get patched up.

The USS Swift has a helicopter pad and space for two UH-60 or CH-46 class choppers but when carrying an aerostat that is where the aerostat sits. The basic crew of the Swift is only 20, but there are crew quarters for 51 and the galley can feed up to 150. Additional personnel would be onboard to operate the aerostat sensors round the clock.

The important aspect of the HAV is speed. The Swift maintained a speed of 83 kilometers an hour for four hours during sea trails. The ship can cruise at 63 kilometers an hour for 2,000 kilometers, or 7,200 kilometers at 36 kilometers an hour, before it has to be refueled. The HSV has four water-jets, in addition to its normal engines, making it very maneuverable. The Swift was going to be used mainly as a mine warfare support ship, but additional HSVs will serve as high speed transports. Weapons can include manned 25mm automatic cannon and remote controlled 12.7mm machine-gun or 40m grenade launchers.

The Swift can also carry high speed inflatable boats to carry boarding parties to suspicious boats. But the main advantage of the aerostat equipped Swift is to spot drug smuggler boats and alert other navy and coast guard ships to intercept.
[/quote]
kmkraoind
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by kmkraoind »

Sorry I it had been posted earlier, copied it from Twitter.
Image
Image
RajD
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by RajD »

Quote/It is great to hear from Chacko sahab. Wonder why he doesn't post here anymore.[/unquote]
Indranilji,
It's OT but could not resist.
Last year, during the 'VKS' saga, in relation to St. Anthony's role when the discussion (his defence) acquired regional and (may be religious) connotations, if I remember correctly Mr. Chacko had declared that he would stop posting on the BRF with immediate effect and/or may quit altogether.
Regards.
Rajendra
Will
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Will »

Well Vikrant getting launched on August 12 is good news. I hope they dont take another decade to commission it. As per reports Cochin Shipyard would be to small to build INS Vishal incase a decision is tken to make it a 65k ton carrier.Could this bring in L&T and Pipavav into the picture. For all the flak that Anthony has been receiving he does seem to be doing decent job of streamlining things.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by venku_Raj »

New MiGs to add firepower to Indian Navy
Defence Minister AK Anthony will commission the multi-role MiG-29K carrier-borne fighter jets into the Indian Navy today. These MiGs will form the Black Panthers Squadron, which will be based at the INS Hansa. The aircrafts will be part of the carrier INS Vikramaditya, currently undergoing sea trials in Russia and expected to be inducted later this year. With this commissioning, the Indian Navy,which is celebrating the diamond jubilee of its aviation wing, will give itself cutting edge in force multiplier and projection. ‘K’ in the aircraft’s name stands for ‘Korabelny’ meaning ‘Carrier Borne’ in Russian.

The MIG-29K is a potent carrier borne fighter, which,once integrated with ‘INS Vikramaditya’ will bolster the Navy’s potency with its multi-role capability, navy officials told Herald.Herald got a preview of the aircraft armed with its
arsenal, including advanced anti-aircraft and anti-ship missiles, bombs and sophisticated systems to support weapons delivery, that according to officials, will not only be able to dominate the air in all areas of conflict but also project power to meet the nation’s military objectives as well as enhance Indian Navy’s capability to exercise air
superiority in its area of influence.45 MIG-29K aircrafts have been ordered from Russia.

In April, the Defence Ministry approved the Long Term Integrated Perspective Plan(LTIPP) for 2012-27 as a way to ensure 24×7 intelligence,surveillance and reconnaissance capability in the Indian Ocean and planning for a deterrent presence of at least one carrier task force each on India’s western and eastern seafronts. This means an integrated network of ships,aircraft, submarines, UAVs,helicopters, satellites and ground facilities. The Navy will raise a second squadron of MIG-29Ks for the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC-1) being built at Kochi. Herald took an exclusive
look at the aircraft and spoke to the pilots who briefed the reporter about the advanced fighter aircraft at INS Hansa.
LINK
VinodTK
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

From Time Of India: Indian Navy to induct Boeing P-8I this year
PANAJI: The Indian Navy is all set to induct a Boeing P-8I into its force this year, making it the second navy after the US to have such aircrafts, a senior naval official said.

The first long-range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft, P-8I, would be inducted this year, the official said.

"The Indian Navy would be only the second operator of this aircraft after US Navy to operate the P8 Poseidon," he said adding that with the Russian-made TU 142M aircrafts, Boeing P-8Is were contracted in the year 2009.

"These inductions would augment the long-range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare capabilities of the Indian Navy," he added.

Induction of multi role helicopters (MRH) as replacement for Seaking 42As has also been planned, the official said.

"Naval utility helicopters as replacements for Chetak helicopters are also planned for induction in the near future," he added.

According to the press release issued by the navy, these helicopters would serve to enhance the fleet's integral air anti-submarine warfare capability and meet utility requirements.

The naval air arm has grown from a modest force to a small air force and today, has in its inventory approximately 220 aircrafts, 1300 officers and 9000 men.

In yet another major achievement, navy's light combat aircraft is presently under development and being progressed towards ski-jump trials at the shore-based test facility being developed at Goa, the release said.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

around August 12 is said to be launch date for IAC-1.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Brando »

Depends on what exactly "launch" means. Are they going to tow an empty tub out to sea or is the ship actually going to be sea-worthy and capable of independent propulsion ?

The real milestone is the day aircraft are launched and recovered from this vessel while under its own power. Till then these events are insignificant.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

in keeping with our traditions it will be a semi complete floatable tub, with lots of fitting out still left.
maz
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by maz »

Regarding Vikrant /IAC-1, the delivery date is planned for 2018 which means 2020 and even 2022! In other words, outfitting is planned to last at least 4 years if not longer.

I wonder why they don't complete more of the carrier (size and tonnage limitations of said building dock permitting) before launching the ship?

Maybe, CSL will surprise everyone by launch time. Perhaps will have performed a minor miracle and actually assembled all of the missing hull blocks so as to complete the hull prior to launching. I imagine the flight deck will be gradually built up post launching. It would be interesting to see the extent of work actually carried out prior to the formal launch in 3 months time. Will they approach anything close to Chinese rates of shipbuilding?

Actually, the build strategy is no longer current. Modern ships are assembled from large pre-outfitted hull blocks and here we are in 2013 still building ships from the hull up. One really hopes that for IAC-2, a contemporary build strategy is adopted.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by prahaar »

This wiki says that IAC-I is constructed with modular design concept. India joins elite warships club.
Excerpt: We completed 423 blocks weighing about 8,000 tonnes and the rest will be done by the end of 2009. The assembling began with Saturday’s formal function
Is the difference with the modern shipbuilding technique that the modules are functionally complete but in this case they will only be steel block?


---------------------------------------------

Edited later: Thanks @Maz, the explanation helped.
Last edited by prahaar on 12 May 2013 13:43, edited 1 time in total.
maz
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by maz »

Its true that the ship is modular in the sense that its made up of a large number of small hull/superstructure blocks.

What i am referring to is pre-outfitted large blocks that are essentially joined up in sections. Imagine the ship to be sectioned into large slices which are then joined up to build the whole. The key idea is saving the very time consuming outfitting work - that is to say, machinery, cabling, conduits, furniture, pipes, plumbing work, lagging, etc, etc that has to be done inside the hull as opposed to doing it in in a 'plug and play' manner. hope this very simple explanation helps.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/05/i ... g-29k.html

Admiral Shukla...20,000 leagues out of his league :shock:

The Sea Harrier was able to defend the fleet from enemy aircraft, but its ability to attack ground targets was limited and it carried no anti-ship missiles, which had to be fired from the mother ship, the Viraat.
:rotfl:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Ha!Ha! Doesn't he know anything about the Sea Harrier/Harriers?

Just for the record on the MIG-29K commissioning.
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ier-viraat
India to commission its first supersonic naval fighter squadron
Rajat Pandit, TNN May 10, 2013,


NEW DELHI: India on Saturday will commission its first-ever squadron of naval supersonic fighters, the MiG-29K "air superiority" jets, which will eventually operate from the decks of aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya ( Admiral Gorshkov) as well as the indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC).

Defence minister AK Antony will do the honours at the ceremony at the naval airbase INS Hansa in Goa, which will also mark the diamond jubilee celebrations of the fleet's "air arm" of the force. While celebrations are certainly in order, it also underlines the lack of long-term strategic planning and timely decision-making in the country.

The MiG-29Ks — the first 16 of the 45 fighters ordered from Russia for over $2 billion will constitute the INSAS 303 "Black Panthers" squadron — began arriving in India a couple of years ago but the 44,570-tonne Gorshkov will be ready for delivery only by end-2013 after being refurbished in Russia for $2.33 billion.

Similarly, the 40,000-tonne IAC being built at Cochin Shipyard will not be handed over to the Navy anytime before 2018, derailing the force's long-standing ambition to operate two full-fledged carrier battle groups (CBGs) by 2015. The 65,000-tonne IAC-II, in turn, remains merely on the drawing board as of now.

As earlier reported by TOI, India's only solitary carrier, the 54-year-old INS Viraat, is currently out of action while undergoing yet another life-extension refit. Moreover, it has only 11 Sea Harrier jump-jets left to operate from its deck, with no replacement of the fighters possible.

All this when the recent Pentagon report on China's growing military might holds Beijing is pursuing a robust carrier building programme after inducting its first carrier, the, the 65,000-tonne Liaoning, in September last year. "China is likely to build multiple aircraft carriers over the next decade," it said.

China, of course, will take some years to master the highly-complex art of operating its J-15 fighters from a moving airfield on the high seas and then transforming the entire package into a potent offensive weapons platform. India, in contrast, has been in the business of operating "flattops" for five decades now, commissioning as it did its first carrier INS Vikrant with SeaHawk jets way back in 1961.

It has long been realized that CBGs prowling on the high seas project power like nothing else on the globe. It's no wonder that as part of its impending pivot towards Asia-Pacific, the US plans to deploy at least six of its 11 CBGs — each American carrier is over 94,000 tonne and capable of handling 80-90 fighters — in the region. Asia-Pacific has emerged as the new strategic theatre for rivalry between US and China, with India too jostling for space with the latter in the Indian Ocean region.

However, India will be able to deploy two potent CBGs only after 2018 when INS Vikramaditya and IAC are able to operate together. This, however, does not detract from the sheer capabilities of the MiG-29Ks. With mid-air refuelling and an extended combat radius of operations as well as BVR (beyond visual range) and guided anti-ship missiles, MiG-29Ks will provide a "four-fold capability jump" over the Sea Harriers, say officers.

The MiG-29Ks, with a range of 1,300km and a service ceiling of 58,000-feet, are capable of STOBAR (short takeoff but arrested recovery) operations. They are armed with R-73 and RVV-AE guided air-to-air missiles, Kh-35E anti-ship missiles, KAB 500KR/OD TV guided bombs and S-8KOM rockets.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by abhik »

A q for the gurus, What is the actual max payload of the Mig when taking off from a carrier?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by suryag »

google maps for CSL show INS viraat in the repair centre and the Vikrant being towed in, do we know how old the satellite image is?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

suryag wrote:google maps for CSL show INS viraat in the repair centre and the Vikrant being towed in, do we know how old the satellite image is?
on google earth is a date tag somewhere on the bottom and a timeline feature that will bring up all older images of that snap. you can use that to know the date of latest image.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SagarAg »

Looks operational. Its built for testing N-LCA right?? 8)

Image
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

StratPost | Walkaround the Indian Navy MIG 29K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Neshant »

India needs to urgently explore the concept of long range UAVs operating from land, ships and aircraft carriers in support of the fleet.

US is already operating UCAVs from carriers and warships.

Every warship in India should be equipped with its own UAVs and UCAVs with the means to launch & recover it.

In the next naval war, India will be in for a nasty shock as China is already well ahead on this front.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

NDTV on Mig-29K commisioning

नेवी का सबसे खतरनाक लड़ाकू विमान मिग-29K
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/29k/274539

Documentary on IN Aviation Arm

समंदर के हवाई पहरेदार
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/ndtv-s ... ory/274617
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sohamn »

Has there been any research been done to check the feasibility of converting Mig29K to a CATOBAR fighter?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

Not sure, but I think it is called the Rafale M.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_26622 »

Rafale M = 90 million vs. Mig-29 = 30 million plus spares commonality and 10 years maintenance experience.
Indian navy better think a hundred times before dreaming of Rafale M and getting cockeyed like IAF is now.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by maz »

member_26622
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_26622 »

So we paid $$$ and worked hard to develop the Ka-31 and then the chinese cashed on our efforts. By now Pakis have tried it out and likely has a super effective counter-measure to jam it. Awesome and makes me feel super good.

Russians goods are compromised KA-31, SU-35 ....Americans are too restrictive...Europeans are too expensive. We need an Indian component in all our purchases especially in critical technologies.

Can we fit a miniature AESA from our AWEC on the Kamov's? It wil be lighter, more jam resistant and on a good airframe.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^

By that same logic, if the Pakistanis have detailed info on Ka-31 and Su-27/30/35 from the Chinese, then the Anericans also have it from the Pakistanis in exchange for billion dollars of military aid. The Chinese are screwed too ;)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by srai »

SagarAg wrote:Looks operational. Its built for testing N-LCA right?? 8)

Image
Most likely it will also be used by MiG-29K pilots for carrier landing practice.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Nick_S »

sohamn wrote:Has there been any research been done to check the feasibility of converting Mig29K to a CATOBAR fighter?
IIRC, Soviets were initially considering CATOBAR carriers (1970s/80s) and also built a land based CAT facility. So yeah, there probably has been some research of that sort but there's like zero chance of developing it.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

I think if we ever go catobar route the size and weight requirement would be defined by the E2 hawkeye not the Mig29/rafale.
the future is probably linear motor EM cats. I am not sure where the electricity is going to come from in absence of a nuclear reactor plant...but if the PA2 ship gets it, must be feasible somehow.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

India, China to order 100 naval ships each by 2032
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-china- ... 367-3.html
Singapore: India and China will order 100 new naval ships and submarines each by 2032 due to changing global security environment and increasing reliance on the sea for trade in the strategic region, according to a US-based naval consultancy. The new orders would include nuclear and conventional submarines and new aircraft carriers, a balanced mix of destroyers, frigates, smaller units, amphibious and logistics vessels, Coast Guard and maritime patrol forces, said Bob Nugent, the vice-president of AMI International.

The two countries combined would account for 30 by volume and 45 per cent by value of the 1048 naval vessels, worth about $200 billion, to be ordered by the Asia Pacific countries in next 20 years, he said. "We see the Asia Pacific market as about $200 billion worth of new ships and submarines," he said. The region has become second to the US.

"The Asia Pacific submarine investment is significant, with 100 to be ordered over 20 years, making it the single region buying more submarines than anywhere else in the world," Nugent told a press conference of the International Maritime Defence Exhibition & Conference to be held here on May 14-16.

India, China to order 100 naval ships each by 2032

The two countries combined would account for 30 by volume and 45 per cent by value of the 1048 naval vessels.

Comparatively, the US was projected to order 453 naval vessels, or about 14 per cent of the global orders, between 2012 and 2032. South Korea, Japan and Australia were expected to acquire 220 new vessels worth USD 62 billion during the next 20 years.

Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Vietnam were also active in the market with the new ship and submarine acquisition programmes. Nugent said Asia Pacific's increasing trade, increasing reliance on the sea for trade and positive economic growths provide the fund for naval investments.

He noted the changing global security environment, saying there was a broader demand for all aspects of naval capabilities after the Cold War ended. There was also increased demand for maritime security in the growing economic zones and need to upgrade technologies in naval facilities.

"India's Scorpene procurement and follow-on P-75 submarine programme remain the centrepieces of the region's largest confirmed spender on new submarine capability. The launch of the indigenous Arihant nuclear submarine also marks a long-awaited next step in India's development as a global navy," said Nugent.

Meanwhile, China was forecast to add 16 conventional and nuclear powered hulls to the fleet over the next 5 years, the most number of new hulls of any Asia Pacific navies for that period. "China's submarine procurements are also influencing other navies in the region to fill submarine and anti-submarine capability gaps, notably in Vietnam, where the first of six new conventional submarines from Russia are expected to become operational within the next 12 months."

Meanwhile, 15 warships from across the globe have arrived in Singapore to participate in the exhibition and conference this week. The ships include India's INS Satpura, a Shivalik class Frigate and INS Kirch, a Kora class Corvette.

Some 30 chiefs of navy and coast guard, and heads of maritime agencies would be attending the conference while 194 naval and defence hardware and software companies would be participating in the three-day exhibition.
The Naval commanders' conference is on today toi discuss specifically say reports the latest Chinese sub incursions into the IOR and its plan of encircling India through mil. bases at Gwadar and other port facilities in other IOR littoral countries.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SagarAg »

srai wrote:
Most likely it will also be used by MiG-29K pilots for carrier landing practice.
Carrier landing practice ?? :shock: Is IN trying to land a jet from the front side of the carrier :?:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by maz »

It is funny that the range of the KM31 radar had to be suppressed in the video when we know that its upto 400 km. Wonder who is hiding what from whom?

Nik, like you, I felt great -IN does the hard work, Ru capitalize on it, Chinese (and Pak) benefit. It is indeed a small world with good connectivity. Way to go!

There's no doubt there's a number of Indian equipment on the KM31 - esp. with respect to datalink and software so that is some comfort.
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